What do you people think nessie is?


Real but changed thru out history
Fake, Just a hoax
A whole different kind of species that has just been


Tell me your answer and any notes you have

Thinker, there is a lot about nessie on the crypto thread of UM. That is probably the better place for this discussion.

thats true...

Well, I believe that nessie is real. Maybe not now, but was. Now people think that there is a new kind of sea monster in the loch ness lake.

No one can ever be sure until they figure out how to drainthe Loch. Then there will be conclusive proof one way or another. Until then the jury is still out in my opinion.

True... but no one really wants to find Nessie or any other sea monster there. If they find the creature, scientists are going to disect it, and then that mystery will be over.

Unless it's protected by law...! And it must be in someway, since (if it does exist) it's one rare species

The Loch Ness Monster is a plesiosaur. Nessie could have easily been frozen or stuck on a glacier and thawed out or moved into loch ness. It's a big enough lake withe lots of fish and lots of caves and dwellings, it could easily live there. Nessie is real...

and, appearantly, immortal, if it can survive a freezing and, what, five hundred years in the Loch? Incidentally, Loch Ness was a big ice cube during the age of the plesiosaur, so one must also, if one wishes to believe the frozen in ice theory, accept that the plesiosaur was frozen elsewhere, then transported, still frozen, to the loch, where it patiently waited the hundred years or so that it took for that massive block of ice to melt, and the several more decades that were need for a biological system (i.e. the fish that it presumably needs to eat) to become established in the loch.

There aren't lots of fish in the loch, by the way. A few, but not a lot, certainly not enough for a 30 foot carnivore to live off of. Nor are there caves in the sharp drop-off granite walls.

There is no Loch ness monster.. its a hoax.. publicity stunt.. however you choose to put it.

I love nessie its my favourite crypted he is definetly real.

i read somewhere (i think one of my teachers handed it out once about 3 years ago) that some guy found a cave network at the bottom that could lead to the sea.
either way, i dont want them to ever prove anything:
prove it doesn't exist, nothing to talk about anymore
prove it does, then no one can debate that it does or doesn't.

No tunnels to the sea, I'm afraid. The loch is a bit higher than sea level, so if there was a direct connection, the water would drain ut until the loch was at sea level.

The only connection to the sea is through the locks and channels on either end. These are carefully monitored by the people who work the systems, and it would be hard to miss a thirty foot sea beasty endangering the ships waiting to pass through.

ah well
still pretty cool crypto

"Immortal" was the right word Aquatus. And "supernatural" too. From the earliest account, "Nessie" was a sentient creature who understood St. Columba and desisted from attacking the human swimmer. This strongly suggests, the creature is a heavenly "dragon", exactly like the type commanded to swallow Jonah in the Old Testament and seen on numerous ancient Christian tombstones, monuments, bible covers etc. These "dragons" do look somewhat like plesiosaurs, except for the clawed feet instead of flippers, and tightly folded wings on their sides.

As a Seraphim or Cherubim dragon,"Nessie" can leave the Loch at will which makes the sonar findings pointless, and people will continue to see "her" there, and many other watery places these creatures are apparently attracted to.

DC, have you considered expanding your interests? There are so many interesting things out there...

Your freaking joking right? Nessie is fake, it was a publicity stunt. Where in the world do you people come up with this stuff.
And people wonder why the civilization is failing, people live in a fantasy world.
Seriuosly watch Clash of the Titans, or play some AD&D, just don't take it to seriously, your friend might turn into a dragon, and you might slay him. HAHAHA

Pathetic, simply pathetic.

Peace TNO.

Perhaps, a giant invertebrae (slug-like); This way it would be able to stay submerged indefinitely.This may also explain the humps seen on the surface. Another theory, could be seals or other sea mammals visiting the Loch on occasion... But, as for a large reptile or lake monster living in Loch Ness. it is highly unlikely.

I'm rather skeptical of Nessie, since unless young 'nessies' were somehow coming either up the river from the ocean, or down the river from the sources of whatever drains into Loch Ness (all, mind you, without being detected by humans living near those rivers), there would need to be a population of these things, in order for them to breed without degenerating from inbreeding. That would probably overload Loch Ness's ecosystem.

Nameless, You seem to know a lot more about all of those fantasy games and movies than I do, I wonder why? My interest in this subject is based on ancient accounts that have nothing to do with "modern" games, book and films, produced by people who usually haven't a clue about the historical origin of these subjects.

People will continue to see draco-form "monsters" at Loch Ness and other places no matter how many scientists tell them they "cannot be there", because they may be "more" then mere animals, just as so much other unexplained phenomena discussed on this website.

Lake monsters, including that of Loch Ness have been reported as long as recorded history. And they were hardly "publicity stunts" back then. Many people are unaware that "identical" creatures have been reported in nearby lochs by reliable people that are clearly not publicity stunts as these are undeveloped places.

Much of the oriental world still believes in dragons, very intellegient and succesful people some who I know personally, and technically most Christians must believe in them to if they believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. I suspect billions of these people are far less "pathetic", indeed probably far more intelligent and succesful, than you are, Nameless.

You have to admit, though, that your explanation here is a bit of a leap of faith. Let us assume the Loch Ness monster exists and did what the stories say he did. Let's look at it objectively:

A wild creature was confronted by a human yelling at him, so it turned away. Does this seem strange to you? Does this seem like something 90% of the animal kingdom wouldn't do?

You have taken a perfectly normal instinctual action, and from that, deduced sentience and divine origins. Your conclusions are somewhat suspect.

I simply cannot see how, in any way, shape, or form, a creature running away from a yelling human "strongly suggests, the creature is a heavenly "dragon"".

And DC highjacks another thread!

Can you keep on topic DC? This is a thread about the Loch Ness monster AKA Nessie not dragons or Seraphim or Cherubim.

Aquatus,
Some eyewitness reports state the creature to be 50 or 60 feet long. Do you really think a person "shouting" would scare it away? It was generally referred to as a "dragon" as well, until the discovery of fossil plesiosaurs.

People keep seeing the Loch Ness monster despite the fact that scientists say it cannot be a regular animal. Considering that the majority of people in the world believe in religion/spirituality, and the fact that dragons appear in virtually every religion, I am surprised why people would consider this theory so preposterous. There is even a very good reasons for dragons to be in that geographical location as my book explains. On the contrary, it is proably the only logical conclusion, given the fact the creature is able to avoid scientific detection, yet continues to be seen by casual observers.

Zandore, I cannot possibly "hijack" a thread unless people are interested in what I say and respond to it. If my comments are simply ignored, no "hijacking". Simple, isn't it?

The fact is, the several threads in which dragons were discussed have in every case become some of the "hottest" topics on UM, which can only be possible if it is an interesting and popular subject. Regrettably however, certain moderators also have gotten personally involved in these discussions, and if they cannot make their point in debate, simply use their moderator's "power" to shut the thread down, as we have seen.

Yes, I do, and no, it wasn't. I won't bother asking you to back up your claims. Incidentally, let's not forget that I do not believe the thing exists to begin with.



And people keep seeing the Virgin Mary on underpasses, toast, and trees. This is precisely why subjective accounts, which would be individual opinions not backed up by evidence (for example, your claims), are not considered reliable basis for theories.



Don't be silly. You can hijack a thread quite simply by annoying everyone else around you.



No, DC, dragons haven't gotten popular. You have, which is the only reason you keep bringing up the topic. You are like a child who makes noise simply for attention. Sooner or later, you are going to have to realize that the attention you get from playing the fool isn't the kind of attention you want.

Get over the dragons, DC. Expand your horizons. Don't try to make yourself the center of attention so much. You have a credibility deficit already; don't compound it by putting your respect in jeopardy.

I will no longer encourage your depency. Any future posts you make concerning dragons will, for a good long time, be ignored by myself. I cannot speak for others.

If, on the other hand, you wish to have a discussion on any other subject, I will be glad to participate.

I apologize to the mods in advance; I realize that I have violated a few rules, and I will decist.

I can't say you will be missed, Aquatus. I cannot recall you contirbuting anything worthwhile to the discussion to begin with.

**shrugs**

The same is said of you.

Now, I believe the topic is the existance of the Loch Ness Monster?

Other than saying that the hundreds of eyewitnesses are lying or hallucinating, there may be a spiritiual explanation for the LNM, given the claims of "scientists" that sonor readings, etc prove a normal, large animal could not be living there. Therefore, Nessie and other lake monsters/se serpents could be considered a spiritual phenemona, rather than a regular animal, like so many other things which today's science still offers no scientific explanation. Creatures which look surprisingly like the LNM appear on numerous ancient Christian sarcophagi, bible covers, etc, as the creature sent by God to swallow Jonah, and in fact, dragons in general, which in cultures all over the world are more of a supernatural entity than a mere animal and therefore fossil, or other telltale physical evidence cannot be expected to be found despite widestspread belief and numerous eyewitness sightings. (UFOs and Ghosts, for example). A good portion of UM forums deal with these kinds things.

Spiritual as opposed to psychological?

How does one tell the difference?

Nessie used to be alive, but now i'm afraid shes died off. I really love nessie

Please not the name of the thread is Nessie, Real, Fake, Evolution .

Now let me refer you to rule number 11# of the forum rules:
Forum rules

I suggest you read all of them.

First off I wanna defend (that's not quite the word I'm looking for however) DC, but not for bringing up the dragons yet again.

Howcome ppl believe that an alien species would come here to earth, kidnapp alot of ppl and do research on them? Would they really bother coming here and perform experiments for like 40 years? And ppl believe in ghosts, which don't have any proof either (no real evidence). I mean, i can go on and on... But when it comes to dragons as a supernatural entity EVERYONE denies it?! There's far more unbelieveble things out there than dragons... If there is a God then dragons also exists...

But back to Loch Ness and Nessie With all the research done there, all the expeditions surely something most have come out of it... I fear that Nessie is but a regular animal. But I think that these animals are in the "wrong" place and are abnormal. Like a big eel or sturgeon, and I do believe that all the sightings may be different kind of creatures: like the two I mentioned and seals perhaps...

Vidgange,
There are a few eyewitness accounts by reliable people of the creature out of the water, crossing a road, etc, that strongly suggests it cannot be an eel or sturgeon. But the proof of such large prey creatures in the loch proves there are 'food sources" for something as large as "nessie".
And if nessie can leave the water as these reports would indicate, no amount of sonor soundings can prove it is imaginary, unless they see the creature in the loch, then completely surround the shoreline, to insure it does not leave the water, and only then, do the sonor sounding. This would require so much manpower it would be impossible.

So for these reasons it may be impossible to ever prove there is no Nessie, or other Lake Monsters, and that is giving them no supernatural properties at all. The British isles alone are filled with hundreds of reports of "dragons", some seeming so reliable that historians and scientists are still hard put to dismiss them as nonsense and hysteria. In more modern times there has been a tendencey to seperate Nessie and the many other "lake monsters" with dragon legends, despite the similarities of the creatures, because once the plesiosaur fossils were discovered, it was immediately assumed Nessie must be a trapped aquatic animal like a whale that could not leave the loch despite the several reports to the contrary, and hudreds of accounts of terrestrial "dragons" that still were often reported as frenquenting aquatic habitats. Being also aquatic is a common trait of many dragon legends all over the world. Huge, long necked, aquatic reptiles were taken for granted as real animals called Ketos throughout the ancient mediterranean world, and these were the prototypes of the medieval european dragons.
They are also the creatures always sent by God to swallow Jonah in the ancient depictions of this Biblical story, and is now only called a fish or whale, though the Hebrew word for it is usually tranlated as "great monster" or "dragon".

I'm having a lot of trouble with the logic being employed here.

"There are a few eyewitness accounts by reliable people of the creature out of the water, crossing a road, etc, that strongly suggests it cannot be an eel or sturgeon. But the proof of such large prey creatures in the loch proves there are 'food sources" for something as large as "nessie"."

How can you say that the proof of enough food in the loch is that a creature like Nessie can live there? We have no way of showing that Nessie exists?

This type of logic is faith based. This is the sort of logic that begins at the end result and refuses to budge, making all the facts fit it instead of allowing them to point to a natural conclusion. You cannot simply decide that Nessie exists, and therefore everything else that Nessie would need to exist is there as well.

What you do is check what you can check, and what we can check is the loch. The ecosystem has been and continues to be, throughly mapped. Biologists don't sit around their lab and guess that there is a certain number of fish in the loch; they go out there and check. They study, they tag, they count. The ecosystem, quite simply, is not one that could support a 30 foot predator. Unless Nessie eats peat, there is simply not enough food for it.

Similarly, if one assumes that a sonar curtain would be unable to catch a glimpse of the monster, then one must assume a variety of other things. One must assume that Nessie would leave the water, for starters. Asides from only one account of this happening in the past 500 years, we must also ask ourselves "Why?". Nessie would, without a doubt, be more than used to hearing boat traffic on the surface. Are we assuming that Nessie doesn't like to be pinged by sonar? That's another unfounded assumption we need to make. We must also assume that it would simply not swim to another part of the loch, like any other creature would.

The Loch Ness area is huge, no doubt about that, but it also consist of a lot of steep walls and is mostly surrounded by mountains. You would not need an overwhelming amount of manpower for the simply reason that, since 'beaches' to the loch are so relatively rare, all of them have human habitation very close by, to say nothing of tourist stores. So now we have to assume that this 30 foot predator comes on shore, but is somehow missed time and time again by everyone of the 250,000 plus tourists (and local population) that hang around the loch.

I'll make my reply short..This is one of the only cyrpto's i think may have something to it...

Aquatus,
Actually Nessie might be terrified of being "pinged" by sonor as it might make the creature believe it is being sounded by another predator. Such a sounding might encourage it to immediately leave the water if it is physically possible.

I think it was on a Discovery Channel program about "Champ" that a bonafide scientist claimed that an unknown creature was using echo location in the lake, much as marine mammals do to find food. Such creatures might instinctively adopt a "flight" reaction if they encounter a loud sounding that might indicate a creature bigger than them.

The problem, though, would be that, once pinged, even if it runs away, it would still register on the sonar. Also, it is difficult to believe an instinctual reaction such as that could still survive after so many non-predatory millenia in the loch.

Regardless, the sonar curtain that has done on at least two seperate occasion, should have chased the monster (assuming the singular) straight into the bay where the boats ended their run.

Unless it immediately left the water after the first ping (believing a larger marine creature was after it).

Once pinged, it would show up on sonar. And we know it didn't leave the water immediately, because it would have been seen by the curtain of ships.

Im not saying that Plesiosaurs don't exist, but there is no possible way for a creature of that size to live in the ICY waters of Loch Ness.

Here DC if your interested in sea montsers or paleontology then check this out, just stop with these outlandish comments about a plesiosaur or water dragon in an ice cold lake.

Check this out, become a cryptozoologist, and find the first sea monster in the pacfic ocean. Try your luck, and become famous, hell maybe you might be the first person to ever capture a live giant squid, now how fun would that be.

Heres the link.
http://paleo.cc/paluxy/plesios.htm

Actually, the person wasn't a swimmer. He was a St. who was praying by the lake, when the creature surfaced near him. The Saint/Priest held a cross in front of him, telling the creature not to come near, or attack a human. That was the earliest known recording of Nessie. There has to be a whole family of them there, as of how each of them is described.

I'd just like to say that there has been sonar detactions of a large animal of some kind in the loch. However I'm not sure whether it was a pack of fishes or not.

And for the record: there are unknown living creauters in that lake. It has been captured on video by the discovery channel (though it was reeeaaally small )

Ikayn,
There are probably different versions of the story, and yes it was a Saint who drove the creature off, but he did so because it was chasing a person in the water. If we look at Nessie as a real animal and a potential human predator due to size and likely being carnivorous, we know from real animals that it is possible to "mellow". There are several accounts during the Texas Revolution of huge alligators in Texas eating at least 3 people mentioned by name. But this is before they learned to fear humans because of their firearms. Now alligators are usually very timid of man, and never allowed to grow to the great size of those in the previous century and before.

If we look at Nessie as a heavenly "dragon", like the one in the Jonah and Moses stories, and many other biblical texts, we can assume nessie actually understood the words of St. Columba, and never attacked a person again as they were beginning to be converted to Christianity then. Dragons appeared as terrible, man-devouring creatures in the legends of most pagan Northern Europeans until they accepted the Christian faith. Perhaps there is a connection.

There does seem to be a connection. I heard the version without the swimmer, but it just depends on where you heard it, or how. Though there is a doubt for me thinking its a heavenly dragon. Don't know why. I'm christian and all, but still. I have my doubts on some things. Such as when one of you guys had the story of the Virgin Mary crying tears of blood in some city in California.

Ikayn,
If the Bible has validity there can be no doubt that "dragons" are heavenly creatures, something completely understood by both early Christians and Jews despite these scriptures being purposely covered up in modern times. Christians should welcome the fact, for the widespread belief in these dragons all over the world is one of the few supernatural "proofs" of the existence of a spiritual realm which mere secular science cannot explain.

Vidgange,
It is amusing to listen to the Nessie sceptics. On one hand they say there are almost no fish in the loch so Nessie would starve, BUT when they get a sonor reading of a large creature, it must be a huge school of those nonexistent fish!

Nameless, I never claimed nessie was a plesiosaur, I merely stated that people stopped calling Nessie a "Dragon" after plesiosaur fossils were discovered, and that sounds more serious and scientific than calling Nessie a dragon, for after all, dragons are mentioned in fairy tales and the bible which must mean they can only be nonsense.

I never said that Nessie wasn't a dragon, did I? I said, I doubt it, never said I didn't believe it.

Nessie is no more than a made-up creature blown out of proportion by the media, and taken advange by induviduals for their own exploits. It not dinosaur, nor dragon, nor cryptid....but just a figment of your imagination.

Frogfish, someone who firmly believes in supernatural "demons" as you have already stated, can hardly claim other unexplained phenomena with far more evidence is "fake". There is probably as much, or even more evidence for Nessie, , as there is for your Catholic demons. There are photos and video and dozens of eyewitnesses, whereas for demons all we have are some "B" movies and an army of "exorcist priests" to help people with their mental illnesses.

Neither of those are not even slightly possible? Without doubt? Proven concreate fact? Not being a b****, just asking because I don't know much in that area.

My theory, please correct any inconsistancies, is that "Nessie" is a pod (a group of Plesiosaurs or Elasmosaurs, a pod?) that migrates from the Arctic or Greenland to the loch to procreate, much like whales. Once they've done their business, they leave, only to return the following year.

PS. I can't believe this mystical angel/dragon nonscense has dragged into a Nessie thread Shame on you! Bad theists! Bad!

That's correct. Asides from the whole geology of the place not being conducive to caves or tunnels, it's just simple physics. Water levels itself out. It flows from higher to lower. If a lake is above sea level, it will drain until it is at sea level, especially if it has a direct connection to the ocean.



Right. The problems are the same. The ecology of the loch simply wouldn't support a large group of predators, particularly during a breeding season. Nor would a sea monster, let alone a whole pod of them, be able to maneuver the locks that lead to the loch without being spotted.

How much of the loch has really been uncovered. There could be millions of fish in there, yet we don't know about it. Just because the sonar sweep didn't quite get anything, doesn't mean that nothings down there. And the Plesiousaurs or Elasmosaurs would be smart enough to swim under the ships, or down a bit deeper in the channel, rather than trying to get spotted while trying to get into the loch.