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endofthingstocome
heres a nice philosophical question that when i first heard it. i thought it was as pretty basic and easy question to answer. but then the next day i remembered it and spent a few minutes thinking about it, and it isnt all that straightforward:

if a stick falls out of a tree in the middle of a forest, but nobody, no human, bird or anything alive is around to witness it or hear it. no living thing is aware that its fallen. :did it even happen?

i know its sounds a bit dumb when you say it. but if you think about it a little, it is a pretty good question thumbsup.gif
Althalus
yes, it did happen, cos you have just put 'if it did happen and no-one was around to see it happen'.

So by the very nature of the question, it did happen, it is just that no-one saw it.
Mystify
yup that about answers it...
Kaj
Iīt fell...becouse it makes a difference in the future...it plays itīs part.
Important or not, it still does.
dust19
If a robot took into an abandoned cellar, took a knife and gutted you completely until your torturous screams fade to nothing more than a faint gurgle, but nobody was around to hear you screams, did you really die? I'm afraid so.

(I say robot because if it were a person, then it would mean someone was there to witness the act and hear the screams)
Phantom
I heard this one in a somewhat other version.

If a tree fell down in a forest, and no one or nothing was there to hear it fall... Did it make a sound?

When does the sound become a sound at all? As soon as the air vibrates? Or only as soon the vibrating air reaches someones or somethings ear?



schadeaux
QUOTE (Phantom @ Aug 22 2003, 09:35 AM)
If a tree fell down in a forest, and no one or nothing was there to hear it fall... Did it make a sound?

When does the sound become a sound at all? As soon as the air vibrates? Or only as soon the vibrating air reaches someones or somethings ear?

What if a deaf person saw it?
Kaj
Of course it did make a sound even if no one heard it, becouse sound also effects itīs surroundings.

Tree fell, the sound made the small stick fall out of its tree, the stick kept a branch rolling down the hill, and Homer came along and used the branch to bbc hotdogs. original.gif
Phantom
QUOTE (schadeaux @ Aug 22 2003, 06:39 PM)
What if a deaf person saw it?

If a deaf person saw it, how would he tell it made a sound?

The question is not Did The Tree Fall?.
The question is Did The Falling Tree Make A Sound? original.gif

QUOTE (Kaj @ Aug 22 2003, 06:41 PM)
Of course it did make a sound even if no one heard it, becouse sound also effects itīs surroundings.

Tree fell, the sound made the small stick fall out of its tree, the stick kept a branch rolling down the hill, and Homer came along and used the branch to bbc hotdogs. 


Did the sound make the small stick fall out of the tree? Or the vibration of the air or ground? In my opinion, a sound is only a sound when there's someone or something to hear it. Untill then, it's only air vibrating.

Kaj
Sound is vibration of the air, but okay. original.gif
Homer
This is a rare situation where the answer could be either yes or no, and although both answers are complete opposites, both are true, depending on your definition of the word 'sound'.
When looking up 'sound' in any dictionary, it gives you multiple examples and definitions of what sound means. For example, dictionary.com has 24 entries for 'sound'. Entry 1a states that sound only needs to be capable of being heard. However, entry 1c states that sound is stimulation in the hearing organs. So whether you answer yes or no, you are correct, depending on which definition of sound you use.

Here's another scenario:
If a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one there to hear it, but there's a tape player recording the event, is there sound?

Another scenario:
A sound activated tape recorder is placed in a forest. A tree falls onto the tape recorder, destroying the tape. Someone comes along and notes that the tape is unsalvageable, but that the tape counter has advanced. So the recorder is activated by sound, and that the tape counter advanced. Did it make a sound?
Anirbas
uh yeah - for every action there is an equal and oposite reaction thig
Phantom
QUOTE (Homer @ Aug 23 2003, 04:10 AM)
Here's another scenario:
If a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one there to hear it, but there's a tape player recording the event, is there sound?

Actually, Homer, I thought of that as something that would hear it.
Even though artificial, the microphone is still an "ear" of some kind, i.e. something that reacts to vibration of air.

I'll settle for us both being right...
rolleyes.gif
Homer
Phantom, thats fair enough. Whether it be a living creature or a machine which can record sounds. As stated, whether you answer yes or no, you are correct, depending on which definition of 'sound' you use.
Exeter
QUOTE
If a tree fell down in a forest, and no one or nothing was there to hear it fall... Did it make a sound?


Yes, it did. It said, "Yeeeeeouchhh!!!"


This discussion was started in another forum about 6 months ago. One side argued that it did, in fact, make a sound, because the tree's fall created a displacement in the surrounding air, resulting in a mechanical wave. It's this mechanical wave, propagating through a medium (the air, in this case), that causes the eardrum to vibrate. By applying the cause and effect rule, since the mechanical wave was present, so was a sound, whether or not someone was there to hear it.

The opposing side argued that the word 'sound' describes a biological sensory experience. Even if the mechnical wave was present, if no one or no thing was there to 'experience' it, then there was no sound present. Someone gave the example, "Just because you have all the ingredients, doesn't mean you have a cake."

The thread fizzled out after 400+ posts without resolving the question.

Homer
QUOTE (Exeter @ Aug 23 2003, 09:31 AM)
The thread fizzled out after 400+ posts without resolving the question.

We don't have to concern ourselves with that here, because I just resolved it.
Exeter
QUOTE
The thread fizzled out after 400+ posts without resolving the question.
QUOTE
We don't have to concern ourselves with that here, because I just resolved it.


Oh well... It was a you-had-to-be-there kind of thing anyway. rolleyes.gif
Phantom
Exeter - thanks for the input... original.gif
man_in_mudboots
QUOTE (Exeter @ Aug 23 2003, 12:31 PM)
it did, in fact, make a sound, because the tree's fall created a displacement in the surrounding air, resulting in a mechanical wave. It's this mechanical wave, propagating through a medium (the air, in this case), that causes the eardrum to vibrate. By applying the cause and effect rule, since the mechanical wave was present, so was a sound, whether or not someone was there to hear it.

BINGO!! this brigns to mind another question. see the only post on this division by me.
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