Piney you skould know the History of the Aztec better than me. With that said, they did not immigrate to this continent, they were already in Meso-America, They picked up after the Mayan empire fell, you are thinking of the Olmec. Any Way, the Serpent god of both the Aztec and Maya, Quetzecoatyl, can be described as a dragon type being.

And for the record, many scholars do not believe in using the internet, for anything other than feed back, both from professionals and the general public.

I believe that the best info is lying not in some computer, but in a dusty musty old book in a library. In fact, many of the books i get to handle are older than all of here on this site, and very few have an electronic copy made for it. So the internet is not the greastest source of information, you are more likely than not to find a ton of crap, and as most of you keep demanding a link, it shows you are either to busy to search for yourself, or to lazy to do it and would rather be spoon fed the information.

Piney, okay glad to see we agree that the Hopis had winged snake gods, as so did many of the southeast's mound building cultures, and just up the missouri are the depictions of the piasa "dragon", which with it's scaly body and extremely long tail, could also be called a winged serpent by some people.

Many people refer to dragons as serpents, and certainly winged serpents. The piece of evidence that started this whole project was the fact tht the highest heavenly creatures, the Seraphim, means in Hebrew a fiery flying/winged serpent, and here we see winged serpents as dieties on both other sides of the world, America and China. The point is they are both winged reptilian relgious entities, and they are all over the rest of the world too. They don't all have to look like a modern fantasy dragon, and many cultures depict the same real animals in very different ways.

We have to ask ourselves why do people all over the world believe in these things if they were mere imagination. Do we really think all of our ancestors were really that stupid. The same people who in some ways were so sophisticated that millions believe they were helped by ancient astronauts, yet terrified for 5000 years by completely imaginary dragons/winged serpents?

Zandore,
In one of my posts I listed as least 20 original sources that acknowledged dragons as heavenly creatures other than the Bible. And I have mentioned various ones repeatedly many times, which make it so odd for you and frogfish to claim I haven't given any sources. In Frogfish's case, it may have been pointless, since he obviously didn't know who st. Augustine, St Thomas Aquinas, and other great catholic theologians who authenticated dragons, or the books removed from the bible which have a great deal of dragon lore.

If I get into my notes this weekend I will give you the links to the best piasa material that mentions native american legends of their making alliances and carrying off enemy chieftains.

Vidgange,
You asked what I thought such creatures looked like? The earliest known dragon I know of is from something like 2500 BC gaurding the gates of heaven on a Sumerian vase just as the Cherubim dragons are said to do in Judao Christian theology. They have snake like heads with sharp teeth, a longish neck, four clawed feet, wings on their backs and a serpentine tail. They are quite like dragons depicted all around the world for almost 5000 years! If we regard the Bible as being "accurate" about them, they are the most senior of heavenly creatures probably developed from some otherwise extinct great reptile of the mesozoic age. Humanoid "Angels" would not exist until millions of years later, when mankind evolved into its modern form. This of course, is based on the premise that the Judao Christian God is a real entity.

for all those who keep doubting


this is what he bases his all of his insights on.

DC you have said this, i may be wrong, at least thirty times by my count, and for those that can't read a number spelled out it is 30.

OK here it is.
"The 'Chichimec' were a Ute people who migrated into Mexico from the north. They spoke Nahuatl (Uto-Aztecan) and married princesses of the 9 remaining Toltec families who claimed descent of Quetzalcoatl. The Toltecs had survived pestilance and famine and held out in only a few "townships" but most of their territory was ruin or barren waste."

'The Aztec' by C.A. Burland c.1961

"Uto-Aztecan families include: Ute, Paiute, Bannock, Hopi, Shoshone, Comanche, Kiowa, Pawnee, Pima and Mission."

'Concise Encyclopedia of the American Indian' by Bruce Grant c.1989

So the Aztecs did not bring the 'Feathered Serpent' with them but adopted it after they were hybridized with the Toltec. I stand partly corrected.

Lapi'che

'Native American Legends Series: Southeastern Legends' compiled by George E. Lankford c. 1987
Biloxi, Creek, Natchez legends (All moundbuilder remenants) State 'watercougar'. Siouian (Santee, Coree,Yuchi,Tutelo, Osage, Dakota/Lakota) Legends all state 'watercougar'. The pictures of the moundbuilder clay artifacts all display a watercougar.

'The Moundbuilders' by Robert Silverberg (a big name in Sci fi) c.1970
All references are to 'watercougars'

'In Search of the Old Ones: Exploring the Anasazi World of the Southwest' by David Roberts
c.1996
Nothing about winged serpents.....

I can list more. All I ask is that you list some books.

Lapi'che

I believe the ancients witnessed the extintion of a great animal, a symbol of strength and wisdom. As respect for the animal they symbolized it before and after its end.
We would do the same today if we witness the tiger, elephant, lion, orka,ect. become extinct.
Its all about respect.

I don't quite understand your point Piney. If the piasa is a water cougar then water courgar is obviously another name for dragon, for that is what it certainly looks like. And as for the mound building cultures, you can see quetzelcoatl-feathered serpent like motiffs on their pottery and shell pectorals, and you mentioned the winged Hopi Rattlesnake diety.

It is very difficult to trace native american legends if you refuse to study the achaeological evidence. For example, anthropologists have remarked that plains tribes are completely unaware of the fact that horses were introduced into their culture only a scant 300 years earlier. They seemed to believe they always had horses. This shows you how quickly oral traditions can change. But the artifacts don't lie.
The current understanding of native american religions could have been modified as quickly as their understanding of the horse. The same spanish colonizers who brought the horse, also brought their notions of religion, which would have scorned any kind of serpent or dragon diety, and could have changed native american ideas of religion as quickly as the false notion of their always having horses. Reptilian dieties apparently have been "tuned out" of modern native american cultures, because of Chrisitian contact, but they were there for thousands of years as the archaeology proves.

We now know that there was a great trade in the north with the mesoamerican cultures to the south, all of which had serpent-dragon dieties. Long before the Aztecs discovered the valley of mexico, the much more ancient peoples of mesoamerica like the Maya and Olmec had the earlier version of Quetzelcoatl, called Kuklakan. And with trade, come religious ideas.

The interesting thing though is that the native guides of the French padres were firmly covinced that the Piasa was a living creature, and refused to enter its territory.

As I have pointed out you made the statement of finding the Piasa bird on line and when asked for a source what was your reaction.....look it up for your self. That was rude and totally uncalled for.


I would not put to much faith in this.
Is Christianity Based on Pagan Roots?


That was what I said weeks ago!

I know that. But he hasn't mentioned any specific titles, not even something like 'Bible translation X.' He's mentioned the legend, but no sources.

Where have you mentioned sources?
I looked at the last 250 of your posts (back to Oct 21 2005, 05:38 PM) and no where did I see you mention any source other than the Bible or telling us to "type it into our search engine".

So snakes are dragons?
*turns to pet corn snake and worships it*
It depends what you call dragons....


I have seen all your posts since you joined...none have any sources except the bible...don't lie DC.

Quetzalcoatl, the serpent dressed in gems and gold....doesn't sound like your dragons to me...

You all can learn something from Piney, he GAVE a bibliography.

Road apples! The Lakota legend say when they found the horse in recent memory. They say they came from the Kiowa and Comanche. The Cheyenne say their horses came from the Blackfoot and Nez Pierce also in recent memory. Where did you get that from?

A snake is not a Dragon. Neither is a 'Water Cougar' .According to Siuoan Muskogean Legends 'Water Cougars' hold water and when you stab one you get a flood of water. That does not fit in dragon legends. Also the Dinosaur Bones that use to stick out all over the Badlands are called 'Water Cougar' bones. C'mon I want references....PLEASE......SOME REFERENCES!!

Lapi'che

Piney,
You've answered yourself about the horses. All of the native american legends refer to them coming from another tribe, which they assume always had them. None, to my knowledge imply that they believed the horses were brought by the Europeans.

And yes, many dragon legends attribute them as rain givers, both in Mesoamerica and the orient. But unless the water cougars were also regarded as fierce, man-eating monsters, then the Piasas were actually not water cougars but something more akin to the mesoamerican "flying serpents".

Yes Frogfish, giant serpents were considered a kind of "dragon", and this confusion is even seen in early catholic art, in which sometimes the Cherubim guardians around the throne of God are typical winged dragons with feet, and sometimes they are giant serpents. This is why Satan is referred to as a dragon or a serpent, but never an angel, because Seraphim and Cherubim dragons are heavenly creatures, but NOT angels.

We can be certain that Jesus didn't mean a common snake when he told his disciples to be "wise as serpents", he was referring to the great heavenly serpent dragons, known both in Christianity and pagan greek beliefs. Thisis why there is a huge, wise guardian serpent next to Athena in her great statue which once stood in the Parthenon.

Even the mesoamerican serpent dragons are sometimes depicted with feet and wings, just as Chinese dragons sometime have wings.

In Livy's translation of Homer's Trojan War, the creatures sent by Athena to devour Lacoon and his sons are called dragons in one place and serpents in another. And to compound the problem, some Greek dragons are the regular winged type with claws and some are just giant snakes. We can assume the heavenly dragons are the more traditional types, because the sumerian ones were, and the seraphim in isaiah are described having wings and arms and legs. The dragons on the sacred menorah also have legs and wings, as do all the dragons depicted swallowing Johah in ancient Christian art.

It is possible I listed some of the other non Biblical sources of dragons in another thread, as there were several others that went to dragon discussions.

But here are some again:
1.Enoch describes the cherubim guardians as having heads like serpents full of sharp teetch and glowing eyes like lanterns. Enoch also states that Gabriel was in charge of the heavenly "serpents" (which most translaters believe meant the Seraphim dragons).

2.The Apocolypse of Baruch describes dragons in heaven that devour the souls of the wicked and and angel tells Baruch that the dragons are literally "hell" and not an imaginary place under the earth.

3. St. Augustine explains that dragons are huge flying beasts that dwell in caves, and are one of God's greatest creations.

4. St. Thomas Aquinas in his Summa explains that Satan was the greatest of all the dragons in the heavenly host.

5. Talmudic literature that fills in gaps that are in the Bible mention Moses being partially swallowed by a dragon sent by God as a warning for not circumcising his son. It is very clear where this is missing in the oriignal bible.

6. The zorastrian legends in which Revelations is copied from, mentions the dragon Ahriman bound up and thrown into an abyss for 1000 years.
St John changes it to the dragon Satan and claims this came from an inspired dream. The Zorastrian legends state dragons will destroy the wicked at the end of time, one third of the world. John calls them fire breathing horses with sharp teeth like lions and tails like snakes. It is clear he means dragons, and they also destory exactly the same number of people as the zorastrian dragons. Zorastrian theology also states that the God of the Jews is also a dragon.

Enough for now, I'm ready to go to bed.

Oh, we're basing this whole argument on religion. How incredibly silly.
We don't even know if the bible is true or not, so it really can't be used as a source.

Well, I think the discussion about existing dragons has drifted away to the biblical dragons and other mythological creatures, that could be "dragons". I believe that angels in the bible often are dragons, like DC says. However, I remain sceptical if these dragons are the ones that's been sighted around the world, and is a part of folklore... I don't believe that dragons ever has existed (as I have stated before), but are curiouse why dragonlike creatures seems to exist in every culture...

But I'm thinking about the anatomy right now... The are "serpenlike", yes? Can you imagen the musclepower they would need to fly? And I just don't mean the wings, I mean the stomach and tail... They're "lying" down when they fly, you know, horizontaly, and I'm amazed how they would make that work...

And still no source references!

I am beginning to think there is none!

Who cares, its fun to read

That it is.

In a different thread a while ago I do not remember who it was said that elephants were "raped by dragons"!

Now that was a fun one to read

That was DC too. He refered to folklore in India and a poem written by a roman poet... You see; references!

Give it some deep thought Vid.....

How many times has he (DC) said he found something in some text or where ever and when asked for references "look it up for your self".


BTW: There are quite a few kilometers between India and where Rome is!
Then think about it.....an elephant being raped by a dragon!

So then my friends Burmese is a dragon? That is absurd DC....so the common garter snake is a dragon? This further proves my point that DC doesn't know what he's talking about


No you can't be certain DC...If your logic works like that, thne you must agree with this: "We can be sure that Seraphim and Cherubim are angels because Ezekial said they had human faces and body parts".
Blah, the snake in the staue doesn't mean ANYTHING. In India, we have cobras adoring statues everywhere....Are cobras dragons (knowing your idiotic logic, you probably would say yes) but to your dismay DC, they are not...SNAKES ARE SNAKES! Dragons are a myth conjured by people afraid by the "monstrosity" they found in Dino bones.

Well, he has refered to old biblical texts, can't remember the books name right now, and in my opinion the internet is not a good source for good evidence

yes it is, however, it's closer to Carthage (todays Tunis) from Rome, and during ancient time they had elephants - you know Hannibal

Hehe, yeah I know it sounds kinda silly, and I don't believe in Dragons, and have never stated I do. However I believe DC when he says that manytime when hte bible refer to angels it's realy dragons...

I'll wait to critizes his sources untill I've read the book and looked up the sources

First off: don't start to insult again. If you feel DC is doing it; be the better man and ignore it...

Now, if they indeed did find dinobones, wouldn't they save it and display it? That would be the logical thing to do. But, as far as I know, there haven't been any proof of this. Nowhere can we see that ancient ppl infact dug up dinobones, not to my knowledge anyway... DC once mentioned that a church did infact have the head of some rhinoceros for ppl to watch, thinking it was a dragonskull...

The Blackfoot say their horses came from the French (Pottocks, French pack horses, were the 'foundation stock' for Paint horses), the anthropology notes of Oliver La Farge c.1929

The Comanche and Hopi say their horses came from Spanish priests and soldiers, Alvin M. Josephy Jr. anthropology papers c.1968, 'The American Indian' by A. Hyatt Verill c.1927

Check your knowledge and provide me with some references because you are making things up as you go along. I am the librarian for The Philadelphia Yearly Meeting (Quaker) Native American Library, 'Mickleton Monthly Meeting', Mickleton, New Jersey.
You know, we (the Quakers) run the Swarthmore Library and the Wharton School at U. of Penn too. So if it's not here, I can have it here next day............

Lapi'che

Frogfish, you have very little knowledge of the Bible. Ezekiel NEVER describes the Seraphim, only Isaiah does, and simply says they have wings and legs. But he was a Hebrew, and in Hebrew Seraphim means a fiery flying serpent. How hard is that for you to understand?

The chariot in Ezekiel is driven by bizarre 4 faced entities which Jewish scholars call Hayyot and have nothing to do with the dragon-like Serahphim and Cherubim. In the first part of Ezekiel where they are mentioned it says nothing about Cherubim, only "Creatures"/Hayyot. In the second part some Christian translaters have called the Hayyot Cherubim, which is false, just like the false translation of Lucifer, who we now know never existed.

As I explained before, the word used for the Seraphim that attack the Isrealites in the desert is EXACTLY the same word used for them in Isiah, and they are also serpent-dragons in Greek in Enoch. It is beyond any dispute that the Seraphim are winged reptilian creatures, and ancient catholic art consisitently proves this too. Please have the courtesy to get off of this thread if you cannot offer anything. You simply have no idea what you are talking about and do not know one book of scripture from the other (Isaiah vs. Ezekiel). The Pope's own Bible which I have seen in the Vatican shows God riding on the back of a winged reptilian dragon to illustrate the verse in psalms about god riding on a huge Cherubim. Is this too complicated for you to understand? The greatest Catholic theologians all confirm the dragons as heavenly creatures. It is not my fault a 14 year old doesn't know who St Thomas Aquinas or St. Augustine of Hippo were. Do you really think Jesus would tell his disciples to be as wise as a common snake? You have never said a single worthwhile thing in this whole discussion, just ramblings from a child with only a basic Sunday School concept of Christian theology, and no knowledge at all about Biblical Scripture.

No Piney, I certainly am not making it up as I go along. Those anthropologists you cite interviewed native americans in the modern period of the 1920s, when of course, they are going to say the Spanish brought the horses to America. See what they said 100 years earlier in the 1830's when the first anthropologists interviewed them.

Right now, as I am writing this, the History Channel is showing "Quest for Dragons" again, and a lettered anthropologist is citing evidence for the Native American belief in FLYING REPTILIAN DRAGONS all over North America, with pottery, pictographs, legends etc. So you do not have to believe me, but if you want you can tell the History Channel that they are liars. They give all the Indian names for these creatures in the different regions, but they made a point to show them from EVERY part of North America. Maybe someone else reading this can confirm exactly the same thing if they watched the program. I honestly don't know what your hang-up is. Humans everywhere believed dragons were real, so why should north america be the only exception, which of course, it is not.

[quote name='draconic chronicler' date='Dec 15 2005, 10:50 PM' post='978150'
No Piney, I certainly am not making it up as I go along. Those anthropologists you cite interviewed native americans in the modern period of the 1920s, when of course, they are going to say the Spanish brought the horses to America. See what they said 100 years earlier in the 1830's when the first anthropologists interviewed them.
[/quote]

They tribes of the Plains only had 2 visitors who recorded their lifestyle in the 1830s. Everybody else was out to kill them. The Blackhawk War had started in 1832 and no whitemen really wandered around much past Sauk and Fox territory because of it, other then trappers. So name the TWO people who recorded them. I will give you a hint. They DID NOT write any of the Plains tribes history or stories down. They recorded them in other ways.....


Lapi'che

You, DC, unlike the people all around the world (according to you), don't believe in dragons. This amazes me.
It may hinder the book, considering that your "evidence" is mainly based on a text you don't believe in.

At Dixon Mounds here in Illinois, there is a mural depicting mythical creatures of the Native American "Underworld" and I noticed that one of these creatures looks very much like an Oriental dragon with the feet of a bird. Interesting, isn't it?

Hey, cool! do u think u can take a picture of it and post it here?

I probably won't get a chance to go there untill later next year (if I get a chance next year at all). But when I do I'll be sure to bring my digicam.

Basicly, it looked like a lizard with feet that distincly looked like a hawk's or some other kind of bird. I can't remember if it had wings or not. I think their underworld was believed to be a spiritual realm that existed underwater and was full of strange monsters. So this creature might have been aquatic. Dragon or not, it was definatly a mythical reptile of some sort.

It was painted on a wall in the museam, and I think near the entrance burial ground room. You used to be able to see the skeletons, but natives protested so now they're covered up.

Vidgange,
If you get the history channel in Sweeden, that show last night showed many native american representations of reptilian "dragons" most with wings, but some without, and most did have associations with bodies of water. This may be Piney's water cougar. This association with water is prevalent in dragon legends all around the world, and it is no coincidence that we still have them today, but no longer call them "dragon". There is even a "dragon's pool" mentioned in the Bible.

Piney, many of the earliest anthropoligists who studied the plains Indians and recorded their legends were Europeans, and interestingly, some of the finest collections of Native American historic-era artifacts reside in these collections. There is even a big hobby group of Europeans who "reenact" the lives of the Native Americans, meticulously duplicating the museum artifacts in the european museums. It always amuses me to see "real indians" at pow wows (we recently had one on our base in fact), with their modern tribal costumes with their unnatural flourescent feathers and oriental imported accessories, and compare them with the Euroindians in their incredibly authentic productions of real native american costume.

Yelekiah, I think you should remain on the spirituality section of UM since you presume to have divined my my religious beliefs, something which I have never stated here. Do you also communicate with aliens?

Name theses anthropologists. The term did not exist then. Your avoiding the question and making things up. There were only two people who recorded they 'plains' lifestyle in the 1830s and one was European. Tell me his name. At least tell me his name.
The Largest collection of artifacts is the Museum of the American Indian in New York. The Heye Foundation. I have access to their library
The reenactment groups you talk about are the "German Friends of the Lakota" and the "Coastal Algonquians" in Russia. They do not make " museum quality replicas". I am friendly with both groups.
49ing and fancy dancing have nothing to do with authenticity. It is a strictly modern form.
You are bordering on racism by implying that Europeans are more knowledgable about Native Americans than the Native Americans themselves.


Lapi'che

edit: butterfingers.......

No, unfortunetly I don't get the History Chanel over here - I'd wish though!

I'm starting to wonder what defines dragons... What must a creature have to be exepted as a Dragon?

Yes and no. One must look at a second, third or even a fourth source and if what you are finding is consistent.....then you can start to trust what you find.

Among other things he has said.

If I said that the moon was going to turn to green cheese tonight would you believe it on just my word alone?

HEY VID! Guess what.......The moon is going to turn into green cheese tonight!


Are you starting to understand what I am saying?

There is a difference between insulting and stating an opinion.

If the people that found them (dino bones) were scared enough to think and make up dragons how or WHY would they dare to dig them up?


I think I am going to start a poll asking that very question in the "Cryptozoology, Myths and Legends" section.
Check it out.


AH the joys of an open forum


Thank you for pointing that out to him.


Now I am off to make that poll

So is the word "Dragon" just a broad term for just about any mythical reptillian creature with magical/spiritual properties?

Maizen,
I would say "yes", as they do vary from culture to culture but still share many similarities.

Zandore,
Your being just plain dumb now to say I am making this all up. I have mentioned many sources in many posts, and you are free to look any of them up. I cannot prove dragons actually existed no more than anyone can prove any spiritual entity ever existed, but it is beyond any doubt that Biblical creatures now taken for granted as "humanoid angels" were originally believed to be winged reptilian creatures we commonly refer to as dragons today. If you look at the many posts on these subjects you will see many other people were already familiar with many of the same things I have mentioned, so how could I have made them up? I am beginning to think you are more childish and immature than even frogfish.

Piney, the 1830's saw the beginning of the scientific studies into the plains cultures and continued into the 40's and 50's. I am quite astonished you are unaware of the major European collections obtained during those times. I am also quite amused that you think I am making this up. You want me to name just one European scientist that studied the Plains tribes in the 1830's, okay Maximillian Prince of Wied Neuwied, active on the plains in 1833, and who wrote of his experiences in the 184Os. Maybe you even have his accounts in library where you work. He was just one of a long procession of Europeans who traveled to the west in those times, and brought back amazing collections from this early period.

You are incredibly Naive of the European Plains Indian Reconstruction groups if those are the only two you have heard of. That is just the tip of the iceberg, and yes, I have spent a lot lof time with them, and I have also seen a lot of modern Native American pow-wow regalia. And yes, these Europeans very often do a far better job, with things like natural dyed porcupine quill work compared to seed beads made in Taiwan used by so many "authentic" native Americans. I have attended European "Indian" events with literally hundreds of lodges and thousands of participants. You simply have no idea. I am a museum curator and historian by profession with an interest in these things and quite aware of what authentic Native American artifacts should look like.

Oh, and contrary to your claims that no Native (North) American tribes had winged reptilian dragons in their religions, the PHD anthropologist that demonstrated that they virtually all did, complete with a wide array of oriignal artifacts to demonstrate this, is Dr. David Jones. Perhaps you can contact him through the History Channel and tell him how much more you know about the subject (and you can tell him that all of the Indian artifacts with dragons he showed from dozens of museums around the country are all obvious fakes. After all he's a PHD Anthropologist specializing in Native American cultures who has studied these dragon legends for years, but you obviously know more because of your heritage, right?

Actually, you have. You said the serpent was more honorable than God (bashing God pretty much), and you also said that IF the Bible was real, then dragons would be, etc. Which you always say btw. But I'm only saying this because you mentioned spirituality.

If you mean Mexicans, yes...I do.

PS-We're in the Paleo section... No proof dragons exist

Prince Maximillian or his personal artist Karl Bodmer did not record any legends. I want the person who recorded the 'horse legends' you stated. Maximillian was there for hunting and collecting natural specimens. I want to know who recorded the legends?
I just stated I am a librarian with a history degree and active with the AFSC cultural restoration committee. You are really getting racist now.........

Lapi'che

Holy cow.


Where do you get this from? Again and again you make hard and fast claims in response to Pineys well thought out and supported statements but offer no support of your own.

Worse yet, you make claims that are unsupported and paint NA legends with a broad brush that shows you do not have the knowledge of NA history that Piney does.

Without a doubt you have convinced yourself that you are correct and are willing to bend every bit of history you come across to support your beliefs regardless of evidence to the contrary. You can believe that every Native American tribe had a flock of dragons parked outside of their hogans, but that does not make it so.

To come here and repaint Native American history(incorrectly no less) with such a condescending attitude it so incredibly offensive that I am astounded by your attitude.

Belive whatever you wish, but at least have enough respect of other cultures to explain that "In your opinion" certain creatures could be interpreted as a dragon. To speak in the absolutes that I have seen you do here is just a horrible offense to those that know and lived the culture.

I'm trying to find sites to back up DCs claims. Haven't had much luck so far...

I noticed that alot of mythical creatures take on many different forms. So have unicorns, infact the modern horse-like appearence is wrong. Their appearence had a lot more incommon with antelopes and goats.

Unicorns were based of Narwhales.

And that site really isn't any help. Just because it's on the internet, doesn't mean its true.
Even stuff on reliable sites (like BBC, and other other news sites) can be incorrect because of bias.

Please, in future, only post reliable sources.

David E. Jones is a person with a great deal of time invested into finding dragons throughout different cultures and he makes some very good points. I don’t think that he is off base at all, he has a great deal of evidence to support his claims. He seems like a pretty nice guy as well. There is not a single note of condescension in his work, it is rather refreshing.

After reading through your posts I was beginning to think that all dragon supporters were incredibly pompous and annoying. It is good news to find out that is not the case. Perhaps we can contact him and see if he’d be willing to come here to make the same point you are; only without redefining arrogance in the process.

I can't seem to find anywhere in his book(Instinct for dragons) where he says that virtually all Native American tribes had a winged reptilian dragon, could you narrow that down a bit? He finds many references in many cultures, but I just am not finding the claim that you just made. Perhaps you would care to be more specific and not generalize on ANOTHER persons work? Where can I find that statement?

As far as I can tell the closest thing to dragons in the artwork that I have seen on pottery on the Navajo nation looks a great deal like a NM whiptail lizard...I guess it could be an anorexic gecko...Not a wing in sight...Although if you squint just right Kokopelli looks a lot like the dragon in Harry Potter...

If you want it to be a dragon, then go ahead and knock yourself out; you can pretend it is whatever you wish it to be...may you be happy with your dragons; I hope they are able to calm your nerves a bit, you seem rather edgy. I guess dragon hunting will do that for you.

Internet is not a good source. If you want confirmation of an already stated arguement you might turn to the net, however it is never good as an original source, unless the same text/source can be located elsewhere. If you were to do a scientific report, of what ever subjetct, only using the internet - you would probebly be laughed at! During high school you might get of with it, but not on college or university...





As I said before; i'm a historian student myself, and reading DC's evidence and sources (such as biblical books of different kinds, and the inspiration sources of theis) I can't deny it sounds as if Dragons are an often occuring phenomenon in the Bible. However, I am not convinced regarding the Native Americans dragons, which DC seem to be.



Do you have evidence such as DC has provided, regarding the BIBLICAL dragons (NOT the native americans)?



Are u starting to see mine?




Why they would dig them up? can you imagen the GLORY one would get for slaying such a beast?! People have always keept truphies, and why would dinobones be an exeption? If I were an ancient warrior, or any man at all for that matter, and found some HUGE bones of an unknown creature, that looked that terrefying I'd sure as hell say that I killed the monster and get all the fame I could handle...

Fluffy, if you saw the program as I would assume from your posts, then it was quite clear that Dr. Jones showed examples of Native American dragon entities from all regions of what is now the United States. If you indeed have read all of the "dragon" posts then you will see that it was Piney that the made the broad statement that there were no dragons in any North American native cultures.

No, I do not believe I have ever said anything about "claiming to be a dragon". Now you are the condescending one. I do know that in our modern world there are people with those kinds of beliefs though. If you have read my posts as you claim, you would know that the point I am making it that virtually every human culture believes/once believed in dragons, just as Jones pointed out, (and Piney denied) in many/most of the Native American cultures.
What has caused the most controversey in these discussions is the fact that many people are surprised and annoyed at how much "dragons" were also once such a major part of Judao Christian theology, which has been the subject of a "cover-up" in modern times to hide that fact. There would seem to be an attempt by some to "cover-up" the "dragons" in Native American cultures as well since they are generally acknowledge today to be mythical creatures, and in our politically correct world, Native Americans are now painted to be the most intelligent people that ever existed, so surely would not believe in mythical dragons like the rest of the world. It reminds me of the covering-up of the fact that the Native Americans exterminated the horse in America, using it as a food source, and it was only with the return of the horse with the Europeans, that they understood they could also be used as domesticated "riding" animals, and not just driven off cliffs to be slaughtered like buffalo.

DC, you seem to say that all reptiles are dragons...Not every culture believed in dragons. Hinduism uses snakes to portray a lo of different stuff...just because they have scales doesn't mean THEY ARE DRAGONS! The native American "dragons" look a lot just like the lizards and snakes found throughout America...correct me if I am wrong Piney. Also, you insist that Your dragon is Pineys watercougar...why can't Piney's watercougar be your dragon. There is a difference between myth and real...between unicorns and narwhals, and dragons and lizrads/snakes!

I wouls also like to say that Piasa means "bird..."...correct me if I am wrong again Piney....But from DC's ego and loic, he'll say birds are dragons..

I just think you should stop calling your pet gecko a dragon.

Explain this very racist statment supplying sources. According to modern research the ice age horses of North America was wiped out by a natural disaster. Roughly 15,000 to 20,000 years ago and it was the same combination of disasters which wiped out the Clovis People. Also provide me with a link or source for a "kill site" where such slaughter took place.

Lapi'che

Horned Rattlesnakes, Hopi (Anasazi) lizards, and fishscale covered watercougars are not dragons. They do not fly, nor breath fire. If you means 'mythological reptiles'. Of course we had different mythological reptiles. All cultures do. But they are not dragons under the definition. Now provide me with some sources because Maximillian wanted to hunt and Bodmer wanted to paint. Stop beating around the bush and provide a source.

Lapi'che

Edit: butterfingers again.........LOL!

You are right on all accounts.
Piasa is a Spanish mispronounciation of something but the Spaniards were more interested in gold and land grabbing to be real specific or accurate. The picture according to the Siouian tribes portrayed a 'Unktihila' or 'Water cougar'.

Lapi'che

I don't need to be told. I'm perfectly well aware of that. I said I wasn't having any luck finding something to back up DC's claims, didn't I?

I do think "dragon" is just a broad term. They are creatures of the mind, just like anyother mythical animal and don't come just one specific form. I could probably point at any "magical" or nonworldly reptile and in artwork and say "That is a dragon!" and get by with it because it is open to interpitation.

And no, unicorns weren't based on narwhales. Narwhale horns were falsly claimed to be unicorn horns, yes. But unicorns were actually based on atillopes sited by Europeans in ancient times.