Zandore,
I believe I have explained several times that that passage is copied almost verbatim from much older Zorastrian mythology. This is undeniable. And since you are so susicious about my sources , you may go to any site on Zorastrianism and you will see that I am right. In Zorastrianism, the dragon that gets bound and cast into the pit for 1000 years is Ahriman and in Christianity the dragon is Satan. In fact the Zorastrian version clarifies that the mysterious fire and brimstone spewing creatures that destroy a third of mankind in Revelation, are also dragons. Everything I have stated referring to scriptures on these forums really do come from ancient scriptures.. You don't have to take my word for it, and I won't even expect you to buy the book. Check it out in the library and then you can look up the sources like everyone else.



Frogfish,
you probably won't want to look that up because you will see how much of Revelation is just ripped of by St. John from Zorastrianism to get pagan converts for Christianity. But I do have a theory that even though Revelation was clearly fake and plagiarised, there could still be a "divine" plan behind it. Not that Satan is the villain, for nothing in the "real" Bible suggests this, but pagans "need" dualism with good and bad Gods dueling it out, so my adding this popular Zorastrian mythology to the Chrisitian dogma, gave the new religion the "spice" it needed. Satan is merely "playing" a role because pagans desperately need both good and bad dieties, even if an omnipotent God would in reality never create bad dieties/servants. But if you think the Zorastrians received spiritual enlightenment from God to write the same story hundreds of years before st. John, remember too that these same people said that the God of the Bible is also a Dragon! But maybe that makes sense if we consider in Job that the dragon Satan is referred to as one of the "Sons of God". Yes Frogfish, lonkg after the garden of Eden, but then, in the original Bible it never mentions Satan.

You still haven't told me why the oldest Catholic churches are full of "good" dragon imagery, and why some Popes made the dragon their personal heraldic emblems if they are the "symbol of Satan" as you believe. It is because they are the highest heavenly servants, which those Popes and the great theologians of the church knew, but it was pointless trying to explain this to the peasant followers, much easier just to say all the angel are beautiful swan-winged angels imitated from pagan Greco-Roman mythology, as in "Roman" Catholicism. But then, the Catholic Chruch is always changing their views to keep the masses of peasants obedient.

the war in Heaven is no where in the hebrew text the old testament is based upon, nor is it referenced in the old sumerian/babylonian stories. The dragons were used here as evil because one such dragon was not exactly following the rules, though satan in the original hebrew text, is neither good nor bad.

I don't understand why we in the west have such a fascination with dragons and still believe they are evil creatures, when so many stories and so much lore from our ancestors state they were neither good nor bad. In most places where they left humans alone, they seem to be functioning as nothing more than Watcher's and Guardians. However, where they were constantly messing with humans they were seen as hungry evil creatures, labeled as destroyers, monsters, hell-spawn, etc. I, being a watcher myself(not the heavenly version), believe they were here making sure we did not do something really stupid, although they seem to have faltered in that duty as of late. They were here, until we learned to control the skies.

That would be a rather interesting research! did dragonsigthings increase or decrease after airplanes became common? When did ppl see less and less of dragons? have got DC that answer?

All myth has a scientific basis of fact. Some of it we still yet don't understand. Ancient indo-Europeans had plenty of dragon stories, so did the people in the far east. Other places in the world had their godlike serpents and crocodiles. There must be a reason why the people regarded dragons as the most respected, feared and worshipped creature. Dragons are a myth but do they exist? not in this plane, but in a different dimension?

In the east, dragons are elemental and wise. They are so in the West but people in the west came to fear dragons (stories of sacrificing maidens to the dragon, dragons causing terror in villages, ect) must be because of the intoduction of christianity. All these scare stories in the west appeared at a time during the Dark Ages when the cross and the sword arrived. It was a time of violence and spiritual change, the dragon could be the representative of the old pagan times. St. George and the Dragon is an example of christianity's destructive end to the pagan beliefs. Dragons are not just a spiritual symbol. Dragons appear on motives, flags, insignias, both within the military and politics.

Dragons do resemble dinosaurs. Whether or not some species of dinosaur had survived the extinction or not isn't the point. Dragons look like them, and it makes you wonder how ancient people "thought them up" if they were never supposed to have seen a dinosaur.

If dinosaurs had survived into recent times (or in history whenever humankind thrives) dinosaurs would not have been the same as they once war in the "last" of their rule, the cretateous period. For instance if T-Rex and their prey continued in that strip of land surviving until our own dawn, they would not look the same anymore. Dinosaurs changed their physical make-up, evolving with the climate and state of the environment. What that means is dinosaurs would have changed their appearance through the ages. However who is to say that we know what happened to them, and what happened in our own origins. The most popular Darwin theory is just a theory treated like a religion today. People who challange Darwin's theory of human origins are laughed at and publically chastised. Perhaps we did meet dinosaurs, but maybe we also met them on a psychic level.

The stuff about fire-breathing and wings came later on in history.
Dragons then might just be the remnants of a prehistoric past, a species that evolved as elementals that are invisible to the naked eye unless we go in spiritual trances, or these dragons could be a seperate species altogether.

Varg Vikerness believes that the world serpent is the equator.

So what you are saying is....."What I saying is the truth and if you do not believe me you can look it up for your self"?

Shame shame....even after saying you found some online!


RULES

Science, and amongst it Darwins theory, is far more accurate then any religion existing today - even if ppl find evidence of evolution in the bible. In my opinion (and I am not picking on some one, or their beliefs) ppl who deny evolution deserves to be laughed at... Praying to a God that has no sure proof of existens are far more naive then the theory of evolution. And the bible does not count as evidence since it's written by humans. Anyway, that's off topid ^^

Do we agree at any poin at all, we who discuss this subject? I'm on DC's line, in that aspect that if God exist Dragons do to...

Vindage, i too am with DC on this, even in science somethings have to be taken on some faith, because they are difficult to test. To have blind faith is, however, more dangerous than to have faith in something that can be seen at any level. Remember, even Darwin admitted that his theory may never be conclusively proven, because some aspects are hard to determine.

A true theory allows room for expansion and revision, most if not all scientific theories allow for changes to occur, though the scientists may be slow to change. Religion, however, does not allow for change, except as a forceful one time change (conversion).

To much Dungeon & Dragons.

What is that supposed to mean ericraven2003?

Please explain why you say this, so that we may understand your stnace of Dragons being real or nothing more than spiritual beings.

he's saying that people have obviosuly been influenced by an aspect of something thats familiar to them and begin to beleive in it.

dragons are more likely to be mythology passd down thru man for ten of thousands of years when early man would hunt komodos dragons the size of a bus. To me thatd pretty much be a dragon, and f*** knows what other stuff you'd find in east asian jungles a couple of hundred thousand years ago. Finally we forgot they existed but theres none of them about anymore and used the memory of them in far more fantastikal ways, much like dungeons and dragons and many fantasy novels that adopt their use.

Unfortunately, many writers and storytellers of recent years have chosen to use the Wyvern, form of dragon (supposedly more scientifically feasible), The oldest written tales of the dragon are in Sumerian stories, also, remember people from europe who went west did not return, and what you propose does not explain the prevalence of such beings no matter what their modern form maybe, a dragon is simply a flying reptile like creature, that many for many thousands of years have talked of and written about.

I've always found this subject very fascinating.

My theory is the more popular and plausible one: that ancient man, across the globe, when building their cities and digging up their land, came across gigantic bones that they didn't understand or comprehend. Thus, the stories of dragons began, spread and were exaggerated.



By the way, is it at all possible, if dragons did exist, that they simply combusted when they died? Hence, no evidence of their existance?

Actually, Nightmoon, the stuff about the Church demonizing dragons in the early days Christianity while it was trying to stamp out pagan religions is a false, very modern conception. In those early years of the Chruch, dragons were very much part of the Christain theology. The greatest thinkers in the Catholic Church recognized them as heavenly creatures and the illuminated bibles had God riding on dragons, dragons guarding heaven, etc. Depictions of God had him sitting on a throne of Cherubim dragons, in the act of devouring souls that didn't pass judgement. The Gargoyles on medieval churches are predominately "guardian Cherubim dragons", and dragons decorate all sorts of medieval church furniture.

There was NEVER a dragon in the original Catholic St. George story. For over 1000 years after St. George's death a dragon was never mentioned until a French storyteller with no connection to the church invented it. On the contrary, we have very ancient stories of dragons sent by god to help apostles, and in one case a Saint "cures" a dragon blinded in one eye! Books that were once part of the Christian theology but eventually removed talk of dragons in heaven who devour the wicked, and guard the precincts of heaven. The early Christian also undertood that the creature sent by God to swallow Jonah was a dragon and not a fish or whale. This is a provable fact. Even some Popes had the dragon as their heraldic family image with no thought that it was the symbol of evil or the devil. On the contrary, there were so many images of the dragon in the chruch because the dragon's fiery breath symbolized the "power" of God's word.

Actually, the dragons were removed from the Bible very late, simply because as people no longer believed they were real, they didn't want the bible to look foolish. Modern people, even theologians, are generally ignorant of this information and make up the stories about the chruch inventing the st george and the dragon story, dragons the symbol of satan, etc, etc.

Zandore, please don't call me a plagiarist because I am not going to spend a lot of time looking up every biblical passage for you. After all, at the very beginning of this discussion you stated categorically that you did not believe in God or dragons, so I wonder why you are even wasting the time of those interested in this subject.

DW, yes some dragons as Satan were Watchers, but others were "Destroyers", even Satan is said to have helped destroy the Egyptian firstborn in the book of Jubilees, and Jesus warned his disciples that Satan sought to devour them. This is their purpose for exisitence, so there is undoubtedly truth to some of these accounts. Generally though, it seems they can only harm the wicked, and this is probably the warning Jesus gave his disciples, but now the meaning is changed with the changing role of Satan, from trusted heavenly servant in the Old Testament, to dualistic opponent to God in imitation of Zorastrianism in the New Testament. The bad reputation of dragons in Northern Europe may be, because those people were pagans, dragons could freely hunt them when not performing official duties. It is a fact tht as these people accepted Christianity, reports of rampaging dragons noticably decreased.

As Europe became Christianized, the dragons seemed to have largely departed for wilder, non christian places where they could still hunt unbelievers. The last dragon sightings are in places like India, Africa and the Americas. Even today, strange reptilian creatures are reported all over the world, but no one want to call them a "dragon" nowadays becasue of the fairytale connection. If the Book of Revelations is to come to pass (though we know it is largely a copy of earlier Zorastrian texts, then an army of heavenly dragons will destroy one third of all mankind.

Maybe the ancient people witnessed and coexisted with the terradactyle.

It really does seem like we're going round in circles... Some sceptics comes allong and ask questions, which DC answers and so furth...

Can we add something to the discussion?

Well. At least DC doesn't have to finish his book. All he has to do is print the thread out and sell it................


Lapi'che

Actually, Vidgange, the only reason I keep responding is to keep it alive in the hopes someone will come along with a new bit of historical information concerning dragons which I haven't known about. Not much, but every once in a while there is a "gem" between the hecklers .

Artymoon,
If the dragons of worldwide relgion and myth were just dumb flying reptiles like pterodactlys, why does every culture assign them with great intelligence, as Gods, or servants to Gods?

Why it there no other animal given so many supernatural abilities? It is probably because early man was not so stupid as most people ignorant of history make them out to me. This is why the dragon enigman has puzzled serious scientists and scholars for centuries. Could so many eerily similar tales of highly intelligent reptilian creatures connected to their religions, firmy believed in all over the world since the dawn of mankind all be based on seeing a few bones, and all over the world, believe these are the bones of giant flying, intelligent reptilian creatures (when in some of those places there are only tiny lizards or no reptiles at all?)
Why not think they were giant mammals, when they already feared lions and wolves? No ancient person would know a reptile skull from a mammal one. Nor why would they worship a pterodactyl if they survived extinction? It would be no more intelligent than a common bird. ancient man was a great hunter and keen observer and would not be impressed with a creature he would readily see was quite "dumb". There is really no logical explanation of dragons until we acknowledge there may be a supernatural or paranormal realm which science cannot explain, yet firmly believed in by the majority of people in the world. Perhaps they are all superstitious fools, but perhaps they are not, and it is no coincidence then, that dragons of some form occupy the supernatural/relligious realms of virtually every human culture.

Thats true Piney...

I DO happen to be a Native American so I have an interest there. In addition you stated that you found information ON-LINE.....so again I ask where is it? Or should I ask does it exist? Unlike you when I make a comment some times I provide a source link sometimes I don't but if asked.....They get one!

Are you going to provide a link for those of us that are interested or not?

LMAO

does anyone remember the stories of the cyclops?
It was thought that man had interpreted the skulls of elephant like creatures to be this large one eyed human, they would have made the bones out to be larger versions of the mammals they were familiar with, not reptiles. And seeing bones does not account for areas where bones like this had to be dug up (not on the surface where people would see them) There are stories from peoples that never travelled or came into contact with travellers about creatures similar to dragons. Explain that.
Simply put dinos can not explain every single sighting only the ones where these bones are found and lizards both large and small, were prevalent.

What is your point, DC? Early man attributed great intelligence and cunning to various beasts, real or not, because they believed them to either be gods or the messengers of Gods.




Because you are playing a shell game with the definitions, and including under 'dragons' almost any kind of mythological serpentine beasts, as well as those that 'spit fire' and the like. Take Chinese dragons, African dragons, and Egyptian 'winged serpents,' which can be found at this site. In contrast to the Chinese dragon, which is essentially a giant serpent, the African and middle eastern dragons are 'chimeras,' esentially snake-like beings crossed with whatever creatures were considered to be divine, like the Egyptian creatures that were snakes with the golden wings of the sun falcon. It makes a lot more sense to conclude that most of the dragons depicted as flying serpents were crosses between snakes and birds, or other creatures, as can be seen in the mythological record, than to assume that there is some hidden supernatural realm where these things exist.



The fear of snakes seems to be almost biologically built-in to most humans, and even the great apes. Meaning, of course, that if they are trying to come up with a huge, terrifying creature, a snake-like beast is going to come to mind.

Your second point in this paragraph doesn't seem to make any sense. Cultures world-wide often attributed to intelligence to living creatures that we know are not particularly intelligent, which doesn't mean that they somehow can't tell that the thing is stupid. Instead, they believe that the creature has a spirit of sorts, and can speak in its own way, when it wants too.

Yes DC, listen to Zandore

Zandore,
Did you type Piasa in your search engine? I am sure you will find all the accounts I did. But no, I didn't make any of it up. I write military history for a living, and assure you I am not going invent any of my sources in this book, as there will be many people trying to find faults in my reseach.

Frogfish, your antics are very childish. It is one thing for all the atheists here to discredit the heavenly dragons, becaue they don't believe in God either, but as virtually everyone on this thread knows, there is absolutely no question that the early Christians believed dragons were heavenly creatures. Its black and white in the Bible, it is documented in various Catholic summas, they are depicted with God on their backs in illuminated Catholic bibles, seen in church frescoes and mosaics guarding the heavenly throne, etc. the list goes on and on. Is there something wrong with you? Just because they don't teach you these things in Sunday School does not change the original scriptures, nor all of the references to dragons in catholic literature, art, etc as heavenly servant creatures. By trying to discredit these findings, you are only discrediting the authenticity of your own religion, because the two are inseperable. That may be hard for a 14 year old to understand, but I believe I could have figured that out when I was your age.

You still haven't told me why, if dragons are the symbol of Satan and completely evil, why Popes used it as their personal heraldic emblem, and why, as I explained above, God rides on their backs in catholic bibles, they guard God's throne in catholic chruch mosaic, etc. etc. This is about the 4th or 5th time I asked you this. Why don't you come back with an answer before you continue to spam this thread. Your adolescent behaviour already caused the crypto forum dragon thread to be closed.

I, too, would like to know this! If you can't answer this I'll draw the conclusion that u don't have the answer for this, and therefore ignores the questions... You're so bloody stuborn! but that's quite alright since DC has provided rather good references (in bookforms and ancient scriptures mind you!) that's hard to argue against when one only have the mordern bible at hand...

Looking on all sides to see whence could come these frightful howlings and these cries of all sorts of animals, they saw at the foot of the mountain the figures of cats, goats, serpents, dragons, and every kind of cruel, impure, and unclean animal, who were keeping their Sabbath and making horrible confusion, who were uttering words the most filthy and sacrilegious that can be imagined and filling the air with the most abominable blasphemies.Witches were depicted as flying up chimneys at night on broomsticks or goats. (de Givry, 76).

Such stories had been told for centuries and were accepted by pious Christians without a hint of skepticism as to their veracity. Such tales were not considered delusions, but accurate histories.

To day the stories about trolls,witches and dragons seem a little less credible.To me anyway.

Well, of course ppl "back then" saw strange things, which today really seems crazy - and I do agree: dragons have never existed as those creatures in the fairytales. However it seems like every culture has dragonlike animals, and I think we're trying to find out howcome, atleast I am. And we're also trying to state that angels in the bible ar really dragons in many cases...

Are anyone here trying to prove that dragons really did exist?

Why must I do the foot work that you have done already?
Considered bad form here.

I did google "Piasa" and this is what I found:
Source <<<Please note I supplied source link for reference<<<

I still do not see where you get this:

It's because, as I mentioned earlier, he's playing a 'shell game' with the definitions of dragon, and claiming creatures like the thunderbirds and Egyptian winged serpents were dragons.

DC, you have spoken quite a bit about dragons, and their supposed roles in mythology. What you have NOT done is provide us with a scrap of concrete proof beyond claims that similarities in mythology and the accounts of the ancients constitute proof that they exist, and even then, you have referred us to no website links, or books, that might show us where we could find information on your claims, beyond vagueness like 'type in "Piasa" in google.'.

Guardsman Bass, you should know this, as well as anyone here, Nothing in this world is absolute, all of science is constantly changing, nothing is absolute.

He tells you guys to search for yourselves because he has already done that, he found what he wanted and he is telling you to find out for yourselves, for the love of all that is right, you should not have to be spoon fed information when you have the means of finding it right at your (please pardon my language here), at your f'ing finger tips, do the search your self, unless you want to be called a "lazy spoon fed bum", or more simply a "Child."

to demand someone give you the information instead of taking ten minutes to do it your self, is both lazy and selfish.

As I pointed out to him (DC):
1) The rules: >A reference link to the forum RULES< number seven (7) of the forum rules.

2) It is considered bad form and RUDE not to provide a reference link.

Yas for all that is right provide a source or call it his opinion.

Who is to say that the information is truth?

When he has the means right at his finger tips to make a link......

BTW: be careful of your language BAD BAD

Anyone here can say they know something but the true test is IF they can prove it and as Guardsman Bass put it:

As both GB and I have said with out proof it is only an opinion.....

Did you understand that child?

I highly doubt it, by your behavior I bet your weren't even in the top 5% of your class!

There is no dragons in any North American Native legends. The Piasa, which was obliviously misinterpeted by the priest was a Unktlihila or 'water cougar'. The damn drawing does not exist anymore and you can't prove it did. Researching by 'google' is not a valid method in any Native American Nation cutural retention committee run by the AFSC. Stop trying to butcher our culture. It if offensive to the Native community...........

Lapi che yengki

Because there is no such thing. The Hopi where the inheritors of their culture and there is no dragon legend among them either.............
I am active with the AFSC cultural retention. They are active on just about every Rez. I have been active with them for years and my father was active with them before me.

Lapi'che

We've been over this before and I did provid a link (yes I did!) and to me it doesn't look like a dragon, I must confese!




Frodfish; this does STILL NOT explain your thoughts about


Do u feel that u don't have too? that won't convince a soul that you're right, just pointing that out. I have seen that u don't replay to things u have been wrong about or way out of line (like accusing me for bad english when I live in a none-english-speaking-country), so you'll probebly won't replay to this either... huh

DC what's your definition of dragons? just huge flying reptilians or something else?

I personally think this is all stupid.
Dinosaurs, seeing their amazing likeness to dinosaurs, must have probably been the result of an answer to the question "Holy.... what are these bones?"

Piney,
you may be familiar with "modern" native american beliefs, but archaeologists have absolutely proven that the cult of the benificent "feathered/winged serpent" (a kind of dragon) was not limited to mesoamerica but was common in what is now the United States. Don't forget you are dealing with a culture that relied on oral traditions to preserve their legends, yet flying serpents and "dragon-like" thunderbirds proliferated ancient pictographs, petroglyphs and artifacts, bsolutely proving that these were prevalent beliefs for centuries.

Anyone who has seen the piasa drawings say it looks like a dragon. Saying fishscales is little different than saying reptile scales, and if the head looks like a bear, well many medieval european dragons have wolflike heads. It is because these are predators that the people were familar with. If the Native americans called their dragons "water cougars", I don't have a problem with that. In the bible they are called Tannyn and Seraphim, in Sumeria they are calle mushushu, in China they are called "Lung", but but the bottom line is virtually every culture in the world is filled with them, and the north american natives are no exception. You are much like frogfish, believing in only the modern conceptions of certain religions and ignoring the original source material, but it is there, and can be found if you want to look for it.

No Vidgange, Frogfish cannot answer my questions. He has created his own mythos about his religion which contradicts the obvious facts that originally Catholicsm recognized dragons as heavenly creatures, and no matter how many books they burnt, and earlier religious ornaments and frescoes they destoryed, they cannot hide the fact, because they still must deal with the orignal hebrew scriptures. But Catholocism is constantly changing its dogma to be popular. We see this now with their change on evolution.

Are you stating your opinion or facts?
If it is (supposed) a fact then......A link please if you don't mind.


I attached some pictures I found online and we will let those here decide what it (the Piasa bird) looks like OK?


But as you pointed out that is in the Bible, Sumeria, and China not Native Americans.


Let us see what it is you are using for reference.


Till you provide sources we can only say you are the one in error. How are we going to ascertain if you have preconceived notions of what should be and what should not be?


Please refer to my ^^above^^ comment and add to that "You have ignored my repeated requests for reference links".


EDIT: Forgot to add the pictures

Not EVERYTHING is found on the internet... We have things called BOOKS, that's been around for some thousands of years now

But seriously, not everything is found on the internet. And those things that is here isn't primary sources (sources that comes from the eyewitness itself), but are secundery sources (someone else is telling what the eyewitness saw). The internet is a really bad place to look for some hardcore facts...

Like me, I'm doing a papper on the Nobelprize and the laurets in physics from 1912, and I have to go to archives to find my information... This only goes to show that events that toke place 100 years ago isn't on the net, so why should old texts from 0 AD be?

Apparently the concept of Burden of Proof is lost on you. Here's a simplified version that even a child could understand:

Burden of Proof- If you make a positive claim, you need to prove it. A positive claim is one where a person is claiming that something is, does happen, will happen, or is true.

In other words, DC is claiming that the legends of dragons, including the many creatures he chooses to call 'dragons,' exist in some form of the supernatural realm, and resemble each other worldwide with similarities enough that they couldn't be just superstition. That means that he needs to provide proof, in the form of links or references to books with evidence supporting his claim, to support his claim.

I can understand that, although it makes it harder for us to verify his claims. But DC hasn't even referenced any of the books he used as research materials in this thread.

He has said a few times that he has "found something" online and as I stated earlier and as GB just said WHERE IS THE PROOF?


Vid you will be amazed what you can find online IF you know where to look. Besides it is just plain common courtesy to say where you found it, other wise you just have one OPINION (his) of what the facts say.

Link please? If I can't answer they question, why aren't you? Since you are not computer savvy like a 4th grader is, first Higlight the URL, the press CTRL+C to copy. Then come here, open up a post, and press CTRL+V to paste the link...then post

I would have said it a little nicer but.....

So... If he provides a link, just a link to the places he has mentioned it's alright? it won't have to convince u? If he does this, will u then, once and for all, tell us what popes are doing with dragons on their weaponshields and things like that?



And you would be surprised what you can't find online
Doing a poineer work (if I may call it like that, since no-one seems to have done a work like this before) means going to the original sources, and those are never found on the net. That really means "go to some old archive and do some serious digging". Like my papper on the Nobelprize: much have been written in general about it (and so have dragons), but no-one has ever done this much work on this specific subject I'm working on (and, so it seems, neither has anyone done about dragons in this context). Therefore there are no sources on the net. However, I can't speak for DC, he, himself alone, can say where he's got his material. (By the way: I've already proven some ppl wrong in my papper )



Yes, he have. He's mentioned the original hebrew scripts that christianity is build upon, and the stories that lay as a foudnation to those. He has mentioned quite a few sources...

But, hey! I'm not picking on anyone! sorry if it seems like that! I just want you to understand what amount of work it takes to go through texts and scriptures...

I just want to he is he is actually backing up his claims, cause Piney knows what he is talking about

Will you answer our questions if he provides a link? That's all I wanna know is books alright too?

As I said before:And that means he could be reading into that information what he wants to. Let the FACTS speak for them selves.

That is just it......he HAS said that he has found some online.


Then ask your self....What is he doing here spending so much time?

The wing feathered serpent of Meso America was brought from Indo-China, where their jade came from. The Hopi wing snake is exactly that. A rattler with wings. So give me one archeological link stating there was a dragon in North America. The Aztecs were a Shoshone/Ute tribe who migrated to Meso America and became a small aristocracy to the indigenous majority and they did not even have a "feathered serpent" until after defeating the indigenous tribes and adopting their culture.
Give me one source. I have access to the largest Native American library in Philadelphia (PYM),which has all the archeological reports. I have access to the Heye Foundation Library, the Smithsonian Library and the Swarthmore Library. So give me one source book.


Lapi'che
Lapi'che