Angels are something we associate with beautiful Pre-Raphaelite and renaissance paintings, carved statues accompanying gothic architecture and supernatural beings who intervene in our lives at times of trouble. For the last 2000 years this has been the stereotypical image fostered by the Christian Church. But what are angels? Where do they come from, and what have they meant to the development of organised religion?

Many people see the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Old Testament, as littered with accounts of angels appearing to righteous patriarchs and visionary prophets. Yet this is simply not so. There are the three angels who approach Abraham to announce the birth of a son named Izaac to his wife Sarah as he sits beneath a tree on the Plain of Mamre. There are the two angels who visit Lot and his wife at Sodom prior to its destruction. There is the angel who wrestles all night with Jacob at a place named Penuel, or those which he sees moving up and down a ladder that stretches between heaven and earth.

Yet other than these accounts, there are too few examples, and when angels do appear the narrative is often vague and unclear on what exactly is going on. For instance, in the case of both Abraham and Lot the angels in question are described simply as ‘men’, who sit down to take food like any mortal person.

Read Full Article Here:
The Forbidden Legacy of a Fallen Race

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The answer to your question will change with the views and beliefs of the person you are asking. I don't have an answer...just gonna wait to agree with someone else lol.

could plz state though which bible your using as aframe of reference many are different

Whew. That's alot to read. I need some time with that. I'll be back if I can understand it all.

What the Bible says and what it does not say really isn't the final arbiter of what is and is not Judeo-Christian religion. The Bible is a book written about Judeo-Christian religion. You gotta have a religion before you can write it down; there has to be a subject before you write a book about it.

So, just because the Bible lacks for angel references, doesn't really mean anything about the nature of angels; only that angels did not play an obvious part in the events described in the Bible. Many traditions claim otherwise: they see angels in the Garden of Eden, slaughtering babies, falling from grace, etc. Are they wrong about angels simply because angelic involvement wasn't spelled out in the Bible at every turn? What if the Bible writers took angels so completely for granted that they didn't feel the need to mention them most of the time?

The clothing worn by many of the people in the Bible was never described; are we then to assume that they went naked?

Ahh... one of my favorite subjects:

HKCavalier: Clothing is described in the bible:
http://members.tripod.com/ian_j_site2/

whipnet, what do you want to discuss, bud?

That's a cute web page, tho ever so slightly off topic (by the way, good Mormon's wear magic underwear and never take it off).

I never meant that "clothing" as a concept was never mentioned in the bible (that would be pretty bone-headed indeed); only that most people in the bible, just as most characters in any book that isn't explicitly about nudists, are assumed to be wearing clothes appropriate to their time and place. I was of course merely using clothing as an example of something readers take for granted without them being meticulously described. I could have used doors on houses, or four legs on cats, or any number of common examples from everyday life.

in hebrew doesn't angel just mean messenger?

sure makes things simple.

I have his complete book, and it is interesting. Unfortuanately though, he has taken some liberties with the scriptures to make his theory "work". I agree that the angels mentioned in the old testament are not fantastic at all. they appear exactly like normal men, they eat food, apparently crave sex with human woman (bad ones, anyway), and have no special powers (Jacob defeated one in a wrestling match). The popular, swan-winged angels of modern popular culture are a complete fantasy invented by the ROMAN Catholic Church based on the winged pagan ROMAN Gods.

The most familiar creatures in the bible that actually are described with wings are the Seraphim, the word in hebrew meaning "fiery flying serpents", or in modern terminology, the legendary "dragons" that curiously appear in virtually every world culture. These are the heavenly creatures that do all of the wrath of God, fire and brimstone stuff, not the human-like angels, which the Bible states are only messengers to mankind. Obviously the heavenly dragons would be too terrifying for such errands. For example, if a Seraphim dragon, and not a human-like angel came to the virgin Mary to tell her she was carrying God's child, the sight of the monster would probably cause her to have a miscarriage.

quite interesting site....

Good to see this Enoch stuff is catching on.

It of course though, is nothing new to me.

I've always felt that the Torah does not go into detail about the angels because they are not the main jist of the story. The Torah is about man and for man. The angels are, in my opinion, bit part acters in the greater scheme of the play.Either that or G-d left out many of the details to try to prevent the worshipping of the angels. Remember, He said that the Lord your G-d is a "jealous" G-d.

Those who are really into angel-ology, on the other hand, can explain the ranks and classes of different angels.

You're right LU and there is proof of this in the Bible. You may recall that Moses made the image of a Seraphim (fiery flying serpent) which those Israelites bitten by these creatures would be healed if they gazed upon it and prayed for deliverance. The Brazen Seraphim image was an important holy item and preserved for centuries. The Jewish King Hezekiah imprudently destroyed the image because the people were worshipping it. This may well have offended the God who ordered the image originally made by Moses, for shortly after that, the Assyrians attacked and exacted a huge bribe not to destroy Jerusalem. An this was the beginning of the end of Israel as a great kingdom. It never regained its former glory after the Brazen Seraphim was destroyed.

Some people do not identify the flying fiery serpents that punished the Israelites and for which the image was created, with the same seraphim described as Gods highest servants in the book of Isaiah. But there can be no doubt, for the EXACT Hebrew words are used in describing both creatures.

Well Draconic, thank for that...insightful...observation. You have of course failed to contribute anything at all relating to the subject at hand.

that's because angels are dragons, like previously posted--------that would be cool if i could one day meet a dragon,,,,,not the eternal dragon though, no, he's satan i believe---it is said that you will only see a dragon if you truly believe in them, which i do- so maybe one day when i'm dead

sure it does, Ashely, the discussion was about the angels in the bible, and I explained the the winged heavenly creatures in the bible are not human like angels with wings but winged reptilian creatures, just like the bible says.

Shadow Tiger, If certain biblical texts are correct, then everyone does get to "meet the dragons". They are the guardian cherubim who consume the souls of the wicked as pointed out in various religious texts, and we see the same thing in other religions of the region. For example, a dragonlike monster swallows the souls of wicked Egyptians. And we also see winged serpent-dragons guarding the thrones of Egyptian dieties, just as the "covering cherubs" of Judao-Christian theology. There is a great tile mosaic from an ancient Christian Church which depicts God sitting in Judgement on a throne made of the bodies of two "covering cherub" dragons, and one of the dragons is in the act of swallowing someone who didn't pass judgement.This photo will be in my book.

Satan is identified as a dragon, but the old testament which Jesus endorsed says nothing about him tricking Adam and Eve. This is a later Chrisitan misinterpetation/fabrication, for in the book of Job, Satan is still highly regarded as one of the Sons of God, with no hint of any previous wrongdoing. Satan's role seems to have changed when Christianity decided they needed a "bad dragon" to keep their religion very similar to the popular pagan Zorastrianism which also had a "bad dragon" named Ahriman. Ironically, it was Satan who helped draw pagan converts to Christianity, who needed simple dualistic notions of good vs evil which doesn't exist in a true monotheism.

Ok now there are many different orders of angels, all with different forms. Some are covered in eyes, some have 36 wings, some made of frost and ice, eyes of fire, some appear like men but are huge, etc. Sure there are angels with the form of dragons, but they are not all dragons. That is just one form of a great many.

The Enoch angels were of the order Irin Qaddism, twin judgement angels originally from the 6th Heaven, very high and Holy. Their appearance is like men, but huge and as bright as the sun etc. They are quite literally 'twin' angels in plural as they are ALL IDENTICAL in face appearance dress etc. These are the order of angels that fell in Enoch, and became the Grigori in the 5th Heaven, under the Earth etc. No dragons there.

a shame its all made up though.

Hmm, is it....really? Maybe proof stares you in the face.

no, actually it doesnt, and yes it is all made up simple as that. Fair enough it might allow you to sleep better at night, some people tank a bottle of whiskey, others choose superstition. Each to their own.

Keep telling yourself that mate, and keep that Whiskey close by, you'll need to to help you sleep better at night.

Just keep saying in your head *if I don't believe in them they can't hurt me'. HA

prove it then, u cant simple as that, thats basicaly the end relsult of any arguement concerning non-corpeal beings that dont exist. The reasons for are,and what seems to be, pretty good reasons, beleifes in these sort of notions are certainly reasuring, promote good will and provide general contentment this surely cannot be bad?, its deffinatly better for you to beleive in that as apposed to say, wars, proffiteering, piracy, slavery. However, you can prove the latter failings of this world. U can study them too, in schools and centers of learning. you begin to see that those necessary evils are real, they dictate what happens in this planet with politics, religion, geography and mathematics. Anything that cannot be attributed to said subjects becomes beleife which is fantasy.


"noun (pl. fantasies) 1 the imagining of improbable or impossible things. 2 an idea with no basis in reality. 3 a genre of imaginative fiction involving magic and adventure-ORIGIN Greek phantasia ‘imagination, appearance’, from phantazein ‘make visible’"

It's one of my favorate books.

Interesting post! Yes, I've always found angels in the Bible interesting, they come in many forms and many seem to come looking like ordinary men, ordinary enough for those in Saddam & Gamorrah to not even know the men were angels. Then there are also cases where the angels appear huge like angels should.

LOL! That's not true, except for the fallen angels.

That's true, the Bible uses different forms to illustrate powerful beings, like lions etc Also remember the Bible says the serpent was one of the most beautiful creatures and walked upright when lucifer entered it and used it. I think it's a case of luicfer using different forms for his purpose and corrupting the certain image or giving the image a negative meaning. So those images after that are associated with with evil because of it. Maybe the dragon and serpent associated with good are the beautiful uncorrupted ones, not the ugly ones we associate with the devil, remember how God cursed the sanke afterwards because of it and took away it's legs and the serpent after that became an ugly creature associated with the devil. The serpent and dragon associated with good that some mentioned most likely were the beautiful creatures like how the serpent was beautiful before lucifer corrupted their meaning, and made them into ugly things. Kind of like how some things today started out beautiful and became corrupted and associated with negativiity like Christmas for example how it used to be a beautiful time of giving and now it's become commercialized and corrupted with a negative image associated with it now of selfishness, overspending and debt and stuff like that. Serpents and dragons were most likely beautiful creatures who's appearence changed after God cursed the snake or serpent or reptilian family which changed their appearences into the ugly things you see now today. And now those ugly things represent the devil & his angels.

LOL! And others like you choose denial. It makes YOU sleep better at night to convince yourself that things are just "all made up" and not real. Like you said, everyone has their own thing that helps them sleep at night, even you.

LOL! Yeah, like the kid who thinks that if he covers his eyes to where he can't see you, he thinks you can no longer see HIM. LOL! He thinks if he tells himself they don't exist, that they won't see him. LOL!

Aaawwww that's your little nookie that helps you sleep at night, I understand. Keep holding onto your little "prove it" nookie, and I will hold on to my truths that I know.

Wel, considering that over all the devil is referred to as the "serpent", wouldn't it be possible that these so-called angels are demons ? After all, satan and those few angels that chose to rebel against god were of the same race, (which implies that they have to bear the same racial charachteristics), with lucifer chosen as their leader. Lucifer's domain (as stated by quite a few interessting texts) is the "air/skies/heavens" and is also known as "Lord of the Flies". Surely there has to be some connection? This was quite a lenghty discussion about angels and proved to be very interessting, but the fact that the less popular "demons/daemons" were not mentioned in detail leads to the question of THIER origin. For surely, in everything there has to be balance - good/evil etc. And if angels exists, would it be presumptious to say that demons also exist ?

PJ,
If you read my posts here and other places you will see that there is irrefutable proof that the original bible writers knew that those heavenly entities referred to as creatures, seraphim cherubim, dragons and destroyers are winged reptilians, and they are not "fallen" but mentioned many times residing in heaven and carrying out God's judgements. Believe it or not the OT was written in HEBREW, and this is what the Bible really say, and even the early Christian Chruch understood this as seen in their writings and art. Real biblical angels have no wings and are basically regular men. The huge, fire and brimstone spewing heavenly creatures in the Bible are what we call "dragons" today. Not only do they appear as dragons everywhere in ancient christian depictions (as heavenly creatures), but even on sacred Jewish temple ornamentation like the 7 branched menorah.

I'm sorry if they didn't teach you these things in Sunday school, but unlike you, my research is based on the original scriptures and archaeology, not the gut feelings and pejudices of ignorant modern preachers and sunday school teachers, completely oblivious to what the bible really says.

LOL! Show me your "irrefutable proof" and I also did say that it is possible that some angels could have looked like that because the Bible did say the serpent was one of the most beautiful creatures before God cursed the snake and made it have no arms on earth. Lucifer simply took the from of the serpent and dragon and gave it a symbolic meaning of evil as a representation of him, but it's possible that originally serpents and dragons were of a beautiful nature and form before the symbolism or meaning of it changed because of lucifer and the fallen angels taking on that form. It's like Lassie the collie who is a sweet kind loving helpful dog, and then someone maybe an alien race invades the planet and takes on the form of collies, from that time after, dogs that look like Lassie may be used to symbolize evil or bad or the devil because that's the form or animall the devil or aliens took on for themselves when they came to earth to do evil. So basically symbolisms and things like that can change from their original form or meaning. That's what I'm saying. Today serpents and dragons represent the devil and the fallen ones even though there may have been a time when serpents and dragons were beautiful and not associted with the fallen angels. God changed the appearence of the snake by taking away it's legs and He could have changed the dragon's appearence removing it's beauty, leaving what we see and know of as dragons. The non fallen "dragons" could have a totally different look just like the non fallen "serpents" would while retaining their legs and walking upright. Or another way of saying it is that serpents and dragons could be like saying dogs while the fallen angels are the pitbulls and the nonfallen ones could be the collies or somehting, sure they are all dogs, but the breed that the fallen ones fall under are different than the other beautiful loyal dogs where the fallen ones are the pitbulls. That's interesting and I would like to read where you get your info on snakes & serpents. For the sake of clarity today, I think it's best to just continue to use dragons and serpents as representing the devil because most people see it that way, it's engrained in our minds & unconscious. So to say that some non fallen angels are serpents and dragons confuses the issue and almost makes it sound like someone is saying the devil is not really the devil or is not really evil or anything and that's not what I believe. The fact that serpents and dragons may have once been beautiful creatures or forms that nonfallen angels take or have, may be true, but it confuses the issue when for centuries the devil and evil has been associated with dragons and serpents. It's like how I at one time cows and cats used to be worshipped as gods but today they are just pets and no one worships them, symbolisms especially around animals can change over time. Today, someone having a cat or picture of their cat on their desk or in their wallet represents their pet, but in the ancient days a statue (because pictures didn't exist then) of a cat represented their god. A Christian can have a picture of their cat over their fireplace or on their wall or desk or wallet and that doesn't mean the cat today is their god. But someone in the ancient days seeing a picture of a cat on the wall would mistake that for being the person's god. What means one thing today may have had a totally different meaning back then. Originally serpents and dragons could have been just regular animals who's form heavenly angels took on like the lion. Luicifer corrupted that image or form when he took it on for himself & his purpose.

so your basically accepting the fact angels have been takin out of context and dont exist, good.

PJ,
modern biblical scholars now know that there is no such thing as Lucifer, he is a mistranslation. This mean there is no war in heaven, no fallen angels. This was all the invention of the early christians who basically copied the Zorastrian beliefs. Zorastrianism has an evil dragon named Ahriman, who gets bound up and thrown into an abyss for 1000 years...... so guess what, St. John just copied the pagan zorastrian myths, and now it is part of Christian thology.

In the "real bible" endorsed by Jesus as the word of God, it doesn't say anything about Satan being in the Garden of Eden. Instead, it says that long after Eden, in the book of Job, Satan is called one of the Sons of God, with no hint of him being cursed or even evil. This was all invented by the early christians and contradicts the real word of God.

I have discussed the heavenly dragons a great deal on other forums, check out the closed dragon thread in cryptozoology and the active dragon thread in Paleontology. I hve just finished writing an in depth book on this subject with many ancient illustrations of the heavenly dragons, taken out of bibles, chruch reliefs, Christian grave monuments, etc. There has been a great conspiracy since then to take the dragons out of the Bible, for like you say, the simple minded peasant apparently need a symbol for the non-existant devil and evil dragons, which the church used to terrify the common folk into servitude. This is the part they didn't tell you about in Sunday School.

fallen race of angels, yeah right, they are no more real, than the creatures in my imagination, war in heaven, not likely, as DC has said many times the Original Testament, in its original Hebrew , makes no mention of Lucifer or any such War, meaning it never even occured.

Thank you DC, for trying to get others to see thing in a different if not more accurate way.

Oh. LOL! Well, I don't believe that. Anyone can make up something on both sides.

PJ, so what part do you not believe? Everything I stated is historical fact. As far as Lucifer being a mistranslation, there are several websites and even books about it, and this has been mentioned several times here on UM. As for the Seraphim actually being fiery flying serpents, or dragons, this is also undeniable. This is exactly what the word means in Hebrew, and the exact same word is used indescribing the "creatures" sent by God to punish the Israelites. God rides on a dragon's back in The Psalms and dragons also sing praises to God in that book. The creature that swallows Jonah is actually a heavenly dragon servant, and Moses is temporarily swallowed by one as well as a punishment and you can see where that was taken out of the Bible. The concept of "hell" is just a copy of pagan greek hades, but early Christian texts describe "dragons" residing in heaven that devour the souls of the wicked, and they are the real "hell" as an angel explains to Baruch in his Apocolypse. There is a lot about the heavenly dragons that you probably weren't told in Sunday School, but these ancient texts still exist.

I know that Ashley has very set veiw's of what Angel's are..I have taken the time to read some of the stuff she has giving and find it too be very good.. But for me i guess i'm more a believer of the old school thought on angel's.. I believe they are messager's of God as well as his army.. They help to protect us from evil and they whatch and comfort us in our time of need....

Yes, Isis, there are very human-like angels and there job is to be messengers. That's why they are identical to people. But several biblical creatures are never regarded as humanlike, but are referred to as "creatures" or as dragons, Cherubim and Seraphim, and the latter word quite literally means a fiery flying serpent in the oriignal Hebrew, so cannot be disputed. This is exactly why there are human like messenger angels, for these dragon-like heavenly creatures could not serve in that function without terrifying the populace. The problem is that over the centuries, these two disparate heavenly creatures, wingless, human-like angels and winged dragons, have been melded into to the winged humanoid angels inspired by pagan greco-roman religion, but never actually appearing in the bible.

Hi PJ
I would not hold your breath waiting for reference sources from DC. I have been asking for them a few weeks now.
He keeps rambling on and on about a book (about dragons) he is writing ( ) and highjacking threads.

DC are you able to stay on topic?
Whipnet made no mention of dragons in his OP (original post if you did not know what OP meant).

Zandore, unlike you, I happen to own the book he is basing his speculation on so know what I am talking about. The "aliens" he alledges are the "Watcher" dragons like Satan, that the author has twisted, ignoring the fact that they are described as reptiles in Enoch and other sources he uses. You have already stated quite adamately that you do not believe in the God of the bible or the dragon servant creatures discussed in it and related scriptures, so there is really no point wasting time providing a "heckler" with this evidence. You can check my book out in the library and see all the sources then, but obviously you really aren't interested in them.

It looks like you are "basing" your speculations on a book (the Bible) that you have said in past posts of your that you do not believe either so whats the difference?

PS. PJ says she is a female not male


As I stated in my previous post "the OP did not mention dragons".


Also as I have stated in this post "neither do you" so what is your point here?


As far as "heckler" did you ask the MODs if what I have been doing is against the rules? While we are on the subject of rules do I have to remind you of rule #7 again?
7. No plagiarism - Do not copy other people's work, either from this site or from another site, without properly acknowledging the original source or author; passing off other people's work as your own is plagiarism and will not be tolerated on the forum.
FORUM RULES <<Notice a source link


But in the mean time all we have is your word that what you say is the truth?

Like I said Zandore, I know something about the subject and you clearly do not. Read the book, and you'll know it has everything to do with the heavenly "dragons" for these are the creatures described in the Bible and other ancient texts that he alledges are "aliens", or at least "non-humans". In a way though, he would be right in inferring that the reptilian "watchers" are indeed "alien" by human standards, but he keeps them more human-like than their true ancient descriptions.

PJ, if you believe the bible is "irrefutable proof" particularly in its purest, original Hebrew form, then you will know that the word Serpahphim means a fiery flying serpent, or in modern terms a kind of "dragon". Christians uncomfortable with this notion give a false translation of the "shining ones" or "burning ones", but we know this is false because the exact same words are used in describing the creatures sent by god to punish the disobedient Israelites, and in this case, even the fundies admit these are flying serpents because moses makes an image of them. But the original scriptures prove they are one in the same, which established that "dragons" are the highest heavenly creatures. But this should not be surprising, and once understanding this, many more scriptures finally make more sense, pariticularly all of the heavenly dragon accounts in the scriptures now removed from most current bibles.

It never ceases to amuse me how many supposed "Christians" simply ignore anything in the Bible that they do not agree with, egostistically presuming they "know more than God". In this case believing that the heavenly creatures called Cherubim and Seraphim should look more like winged pagan greco-roman Gods, instead of the fiery spewing, flying reptiles that the Bible (and legends believed in around the world), say they are.

Yo,

Lucifer-origin

Thought this would be interesting a bit. Dunno what to believe really, but it's viable

Yes Met, that is exactly what I was referring to. No Lucifer, no war in heaven, no fallen angels, none of that dualistic pagan stuff the Christians wanted to get more pagans to join their religion. This proves the unauthenticity of Islam as well, for they merely imilated the Christian theology with a same imaginary "Lucifer" as well.

so angels are aliens? is that what were getting at here? makes more sense the winged men with trumpets.

And just because books are written onit doesnt make it true even if that book is the bible.

If the premise is accepted that the creator entitity/"God" of the Bible is a real entity, "angels" seem to be a genetcally improved form of human modified with a greater longetivity, but no particular "magical powers" incorrectly attributed to them, nor any mention of wings. The "winged" heavenly creatures were similarly modified from existing creatures much earlier in the earth's history, and the earliest scriptures describe them as reptilian creatures called Seraphim, Cherubim, Tannyn and Destroyers, which today are referred to as "dragons". This is why the heavenly creatur "Satan" is referred to as a dragon, and why all these creatures were depicted in the most ancient Christian and Jewish art, as winged dragons, and NOT winged humans. This came later when the Roman Catholic chruch introduced the pagan,winged humanoid Roman dieties to the Judao-Christain theology.

Yeah, I know I'm new here... Been researching quite a bit for the past 8 years. Mostly aliens, religions, etc... And I don't write down what I find for reference. I cross-reference as I search and end up finding some interesting, thought-provoking things through the internet. Thank God for google.

So far, what I've seen from this thread is the same thing that most religions make the mistake of doing... and that's reading and believing what you want.

For example, the Bible. Most Christian-based religions will tell you that their way is the only way, just as Islam, mormons, etc... They'll take something as simple as one of the ten commandments; "Thall Shalt Not Kill" and translate it to what they think is right. Why? So that they can live guilt free.

It was mentioned that the Roman Catholics are the root of why Angels are pictured with wings based on Roman pagan gods that supposedly had wings. That as an example shows what misinterpretation can lead to. On the flipside, TOO MUCH reading into something as simple as one word, can seriously destroy the true context, or meaning behind a given subject, or as an example as the Bible, a lesson.

Most ancient writings can easily be misinterpreted due to the fact that there were no words to describe some of the things we see today. If someone saw an airplane 2,000 years ago, they wouldn't call it an airplane. They'd describe it in the only terms they knew how. The same could go with angels, demons, you name it. After September 11th, when the US dropped leaflets in Afghanistan, and Iraq, they of course used arabic writing. One of the words that did NOT exist in the arabic community was the word "terrorist." Hard to believe? It's true.

As far as Lucifer goes, I see an interesting argument here. I believe it is completely possible that Lucifer, Satan, etc... does not exist in the old testament as a fundamental Christian would tell you. It is completely possible that the words were misinterpreted, or simply, the words did not exist to describe what it was that the writers were speaking of.

You can sit there and dissect the Bible, or anything else until you die. You can write books about what you believe, you can try to prove/disprove it till the end of time. You know where it will get you? Nowhere.

You can say that the old testament contains nothing about Lucifer, and that the new testament is a farce and that since Lucifer wasn't in the old testament he doesn't exist. Let's say for example that Lucifer wasn't the actual meaning of what was stated in the old testament. Does this mean he doesn't exist merely because some scholars say it? The old testament doesn't say anything about the existence of, let's say, ME. But I exist, and I'm replying to this thread in a post. Out of the 6 billion people living on this planet, I'd say a good 99% of those people will never meet me. But it doesn't mean I don't exist.

Going further into the subject.... Why does Lucifer NEED to exist in the old testament for the new testament to be true? Scholars and everyone else is so quick to disprove everything to prove science, that they fail to see the blatant obvious truth behind one very simple thing: Society changes. The old testament rules were for a society very different from what we are today as humanity. Granted humans have been evil and imperfect since the beginning of time (not including the pre-fall of Adam and Eve), and our basic premise of right and wrong has not changed. It USED to be considered a sin to eat pork. You know why? Because they didn't know how to prepare it and prevent disease from spreading from it. Something as simple as that is proof that things were in fact changing, and were going to change for the future. If you believe in God, don't you think He knew that?

Humans didn't always have the technology we have today. Yes, there were some very intelligent scientific minds back in the day, but nothing as advanced as today. Following certain traditions became obsolete, and NEEDED to be changed in order for humans to accept those things. Before the emergence of Lucifer in the old testament, what do you think religious-types thought? Do you think they just believed in God and that was it? What's the point in believing a God exists and that you have to follow Him or Her if there is nothing evil in existence? You have nothing to worry about, right?

If you believe in God, if you believe in Aliens, if you believe in something other than this plain, or whatever else exists on this site or the rest of the internet, why is it so difficult to believe something like Lucifer exists?

I swear, if I believed everything I've read online, I'd be a priest or whatever in every religion known to man, wearing a tin-foil hat, carrying a box of lucky charms with me everywhere for good measure. Imperfect beings trying to discredit what they perceive to be imperfect. You can try to disprove the Bible because it was written by human hands... but so were all of your references

so angels are aliens??

I wouldn't be opposed to the idea. I believe in God. But that doesn't mean He didn't create other worlds, other beings, aliens, or a lot of other unexplained things.

Like I said in my last post... the people of those times were describing things they didn't have the words for. So instead we end up with a lot of vague descriptions. They very well could have been aliens. They could have been clones of Richard Simmons for all we know.