I haven't been around for a while and it seems that now I'm seeing a lot more personal attacks on people and their opinions then actual discussion about questions, at least it seems that way. So my question is this, to those of you who claim to follow the bible why do you think you have the right to judge? Does the good book not say that you can't do that? And to the skeptics how do you take these kinds of tactics? do they help you learn anything or does it just annoy you more?

I will be the first to admit that it is difficult to remain emotionless in the face of direct or indirect attacks. It is equally difficult to continue to debate with people who seem to delight in parsing hairs, and twisting statements. The lessons I am learning here is that no one will change their opinions on these matters, but it is amusing to watch parties on both sides engage in liguistic acrobatics to deny the other side a 'win'.

Although, there are more and more people I just cannot be bothered to read.

I agree, JPMD, that patience wears thin and the list of people 'not worth reading' tends to grow. The optimist holds that even the worst will have his/her brilliant moment, but experience demonstrates the low probability of that occurance (and one must ask if the time invested in sorting through the rubbish is outweighed by that potential).

So are you giving up? or are you just getting tired? I'd hate to see you both stop posting since you are both so enjoyable for the rest of us to read

Hi Bacca:

I agree with you. I am Christian, but do not have a specific denomination. While I enjoy this site and usually check it out daily, I have not been on this specific forum in a long time either. I used to enjoy coming on here and learning about other people's beliefs, I find it very interesting for the fact that I know there has to be more out there than what I know, have learned or what I believe in.

I stopped coming to this specific forum because I just got tired of reading arguments. I can agree to disagree, but without being mean. Learning from others stops being fun when it becomes a big, angry free-for-all. I am not saying that I am guiltless, I can definitely let my temper get the best of me if I feel provoked and I am working on that. But, there have been times I have wanted to ask questions in a particular thread, but have held back because there was a heated debate going on.

I am firm in my beliefs, so to learn from another person is not a threat to me. I also do not feel the need to try and convert others, our world would be boring place for that to happen. But, it would be nice to learn from others, I think everyone has fascinating ideas and belief systems.

thank you amy, I do find it sad that you wouldn't ask a question. I am just as guilty as anyone of picking on people however I would always be willing to answer a question regardless of any argument, do you really feel that the people involved wouldn't have done that for you?

Do you think it's possible to make it more friendly in here? if so how? just asking

I don't know. I usually try to keep it civil, but, being human, I get frustrated too and have been known to lash out in anger.

I don't know if I'd ever stop posting altogether, I'm too addicted and too much of a post wh*re to completely stop.....

It is not that I do not feel my question would be answered, it just sometimes seems a little monopolized. I know there are a lot of non-Christian belief systems in this world and I find many of them fascinating and would love to know more. I myself am Christian, but very frustrated with the structure and inner workings of the organized church. That is why I currently do not have a denomination.

But back to your question, let me give you an example of why I do not ask questions.

I find Sherry Berry's posts and topics very interesting (I am not singling you out, don't be mad at me, I just feel your topics are interesting so I am using them as an example! ), but it seems like whenever she posts something, there seems to be a few people that immediately go on the offensive and start making posts that really do not have anything to do with the topic. You get this back and forth thing going, and it then becomes about something different.

Did that make any sense?

Yes it does and that is part of why I posted this one. I personally don't like reading attacks like that, and I do usually enjoy reading about different ideas and opinions and learning from them. And I suppose I'm like you that I have found in the last couple of days that what i've been reading seems to be more about judging others or picking on others and never really saying anything of your own rather then talking and learning from each other. Does that make sense?

Yeah it makes sense. I think its because humans are stubborn (I know I am) and once they see something one way they'll fight you into the ground to keep that belief. It takes a long time for change, beliefs or anything else.

But defending what you believe in is one thing.

Deliberatly arguing for the sake of arguing is another.

I can't begin to count the number of times that I've started to type a reply to something, and then erased all and said "Forget it, it ain't worth it".


It makes me hestitate to voice anything other than opinion. If you post a link, or information disputing anothers claims, it gets attacked as well.

I have better things to do than encourage my ulcers.




good journey

All true. And I've done the same thing. Sometimes it's like you're ramming your head into a brick wall.

I only answer if the topic name catches my eye. And if my sister had the time and she believed in the paranormal and the sort of things on this site then I think she would join in.
She loves to argue and would probably just start a big debate just so she could fight. I'm sure not everyone wants to be judged or to judge people. I think if you pull a person in a certain way they will become more judgemental or start to judge a person indirectly.

I try my best to be open minded. Sorry if I come off closed minded, but sometimes it is a road I've already been down and seen the bridge is out sign...No need to go down there again to see the same sign.

Of course being human I'll come off as intolerant when that is what I'm being met with in a discussion. If people conceede I may have a point, I'm more than willing to do likewise a majority of the time. Being my age I'm pretty set when it comes to my demenor, but do make an effort to try and see someone elses perspective if it isn't the same old tired one I've heard parroted over and over again. I try not to be judgemental, but it happens.

I guess it boils down to I'm more interested in what a person believes as opposed to what their religion tells them to...Maybe I'll learn the right questions to all the answers I've heard.

Indeed it does. Some is just "what" It is far out unbelievable even in other sections of the forum. But I just know the ones I see as credible. Those our the ones I choose to read. Others I dismiss ( even fellow Christians) some seem far fetched. But I just see it as maybe they have a different doctrine?

Bacca, I am often involved in just such threads(amy I appreciate what you said) There are a few people that appear to want to argue not learn, alot of times I feel stalked, I love alot of the posters they are brilliant (Hyper, you,Iaapac JMPD,zannie, mako , curiousity, 101,turtle amy, knot, Sera kismet, silver) I actually find myself frustrated at times, IMO it would be one thing if the ones who disagree had something to disagree about, had a contribution but that isn't the case, not in my experience, My opinions push buttons, Being open minded is as much about challenging yourself to get out of your comfort zone, to look at things in another way, not insisting your way is the only possible way in existance even when its absurd. Namaste Sheri

Yes Sheri, comfort zones are what need to broken sometimes. If we don't we don't grow. To grow spiritually in any way you have to question. I will be the first to admit it I hate change. But I was interested in how the earth was formed (none biblically) Well I read a few things about it and I was surprised. It was awesome. Also other ways you look at things will help gain faith in the unbelievable or even loose it. It depends on the idea.

I agree sheri I think from my point of view that I am right (as if you didn't know that) but as I read some of the threads it seems like people are fighting and saying the exact same thing on both sides, it's very strange, you know I don't mind a good fight if people want to actually have a point to make but it doesn't even seem to me that there is one. And for me the difficult person that I am find that upsetting. People like 101 used to fight with me all the time but at least she was trying to say something and make me understand something not just yell at me for no reason, that's what I"m not getting from some of these recent posts

101, if an award went out for one who has challenged her comfort zone it would be for you, IMO you are an example of one who wants to learn, and grow, i think everyone would agree on this Namaste Sheri

"brilliant"? Me?

I'm just a city boy with a big mouth.

For some reason I was trying to stay out of this one.

When you limit the knowledge you want to learn you limit your growth as a human being.


*Eases back out the door*

Bacca You are a example of questioning and that is an ear mark of wisdom IMO, its not about the right answer its about the next question, I have had my spars with 101 but she always listened and as you said, she helped you to undertand her point, and graciously, I love to learn, give me something I'm all ears is my opinion , It seems that some are so in need of attention (IMO) that that need detracts from the topics alot, many take breaks from here becasue of the level of frustrration. namaste sheri

Zandore, would you believe another Christian who grew up thought a child would go to Hell if they were not baptized. I am talking about this. Or the once saved always saved. You are not if you stray. As a Christian in my "faith" these seem bogas. Who would want to be a christian if they thought their child was in Hell that died still born?

Just remember the verse about being born sinners.

There are entirely too many arguements in many posts. And it's annoying to weed my way thru a thread in search of the actual issue and topic of discussion. Sometimes I feel as if I'm reading a forum for junior or high school aged people.

If you don't belive in something, then so be it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But the name calling and accusations is too much.

Can't everyone simply treat each other in a civil manner?

It's also quite annoying that posting hundreds of angry and defensive posts allows someone to quickly climb the ladder of title in this forum. I recently achieved extraterrestrial status and it will probably take me forever to get paranormal investigator because I don't post ten replies within a thread simply to argue with a person.

are titles that important to you?

If they are, then just go to the trivia section and post away.

Why do people associate a high post count with intelligence, wit, or actually as some kind of accomplishment?

It just means that the poster is a prolific writer.

And now, back to the topic at hand.

Well I think that we are born with Adam and Eve's sin but the child is not held accountable because of that. We have never been taught this.

Hello 101,

If you are referring to my topic I posted in the Religous Beliefs section, if you read the entire post, you will see that I did not believe this. I posted that because I wanted to get people's religous view on it, because that belief blows my mind. As a Christian who does not go to an organized church, I wanted to see how other Christians who do go to church felt about that belief. Until I watched the video clip, I did not even realize people believed in such things. My 6-yo is not baptized and I in no way believe she is going to hell. Sometimes maybe we get misunderstood because we do not post clearly or because it is not read thoroughly. This could contribute to the problems we are talking about here as well.

Amy

Welcome ICONvsICON to the UM forum!
May you stay sane


It is not the number of posts you make that count but the knowledge that you try to impart in the post that count.
Any one can make a thousand posts, but it takes brains to say something that is meaningful to all that want to learn.

As you said it 101, we are being punished for the sins of our forefathers.

Amy, I have not even read your topic. I do go to organized religion or church and we don't do this. We dedicate a child to God. It is different. Even then it does not prevent them from havng to except Christ as their savior. A lot of Christians feel like this. I just don't either.

Not a problem Just wondering......

Not picking on anyone I just noticed (again) that when someone comments about something how quick others are to correct them or tell them well no I wasn't refereing to your post or what you said....Is there really a need for that? I mean come on sometimes it hurts my feelings seeing people so outwardly rude and quick to say oh no i didn't mean you. People want to be remembered and recognized and understood, is it really that hard to let them have that sometimes and bite our tongues about the corrections? especially when it has nothing to do with the conversation at hand in the first place?

Just a question so if I offended anyone with this post I apologize in advance

It does seem at times that its often christians upset and arguing whether they know about the subject or not, I rarely see a post where to NB's are insulting , recently there was a topic started by venom and hyper and venom and turtle didn't agree on everything they never insulted each other, it was a thread that was a joy to read , it seemed to me that regardless of the difference in perspective they respected each other yet felt confident to post there perspective, this is not to start a war its an observation , Is it maturity, is it confidence? namaste Sheri

Sorry, I did go off your topic a bit, I did not mean to start anything! I had just posted on that topic and thought it was being read incorrectly is all..... Promise, sticking to topic!

And to answer Sherri's question.... I think it has to deal with having enough maturity and confidence in your belief system to respect another's.

I'm sorry I didn't mean anything by that!!! I was just using it as an example....sort of

I hear ya, bacca! I try so very hard not to judge people, I hope that I haven't offended anyone. If I ever do, speak up...it's the only way I will know & be able to learn from it.

I know that a big majority of us, if not all of us, have some very strong opinions. And a healthy debate is good...it makes us think & decide if we are "on the right track" or not. When I was working in the church, I learned "You need to stand for something or you'll fall for anything." I think that still applies, eventhough I haven't been involved with a church for nearly 20 years.

Personal attacks are big no-no in my book.

I feel that the person who has to resort to a personal attack hasn't really thought out how the feel about a subject. Or they haven't learned how to effectively "argue" their case. So those people end up hiding behind an attack. Dirty pool!!!

When I see things like that happening, I usually won't say anything. It's not that I'm afraid, I'm just worried about "adding fuel to the fire" so to speak. I also have a tendency to let my emotions kick in at the point. And why? It's not like I can change anyone's mind. I have strong beliefs & opinions, but to make my time here enjoyable...I step away before it gets too much.

Besides, if I wanted to have a really knock-down drag out fight & hear personal attacks...I'd spend more time with my family!!!! (Actually not kidding here!!!)


40nrockinon

amy IMO, when one is coming from one perspective everything is filtered through that understanding, I try and recognize this and so do alot of others, even the best of us get our patient tested, What denotes mental maturity??? Namaste sheri

4orockinon (great AKA) You brought up some things i hadn't thought about , good post , Namaste Sheri

what irritates me the most though, is when someone posts a question, you answer, or they recieve an answer, then disregard what is said and says: yeah, but answer the question.

Or, they turn the question into some other angle, leaving you chasing their train of illogic, while they dodge the answer they don't like.

Mental maturity for me is being able to listen to another persons ideas, concepts, etc., even if they differ from mine and to learn from them. I may or may not take that belief and make it part of my own, but I will now have that knowledge with me. It is also recognizing when you may have been wrong about part of your ideas and accepting that. Mental maturity is recognizing everyone on this Earth is one, but separate with different belief systems and embracing that and celebrating those differences. Mental maturity is expressing your different beliefs with another (when asked) without trying to put the other below you.

JM i know what you mean as if there is some right answer, until they see that they keep trying until there one perspective shows up, the answer they recognize, i believe this is narrowmindeness, pig headedness, righteousness, dogma?? correct?

Amy very good definition of mental maturity namaste sheri

I agree JMPD, This is what I also don't like. Answers are hard to except when they are not what you want to hear. The fact is sometimes the truth hurts.

Mental maturity IMO is when someone is able to use logic when they ask and answer questions. A person who is 12 could answer a question with maturity. But the way it is worded is how you know whether it is mature.

Sometimes when I use "mean" words this is immature of me.

101 there are actually some young minds on here that are very mature mentally remember nadia88? how about Seraphina? Venonshocker is also young. I wonder if its exposure to knowledge, encouragement of pursuing knowledge, Bacca if i'm getting to far off let me know girl, namaste sheri

Sherri,

I think you are absolutely correct. Maturity cannot be judged by age. I am a very loyal person, but once I think you have wronged me..... Anyway, after what I felt was a betrayal from a friend, it was my 13-year-old daughter who told me, "Mom, you need to learn to be more forgiving". I'm 34, it is a humbling experience when your 13-yo exhibits more maturity.

Maybe this forum could use more of these young ones!

Yes some of our younger members are smart. Really smart. They are truly brilliant. I really always liked talking to Mr Ed when he is discussing topics.

Amy if that isn't the truth, I can't count the times I've been blown away by a kid. What do you think contributes to this??? and what do you think 101? Namaste sheri

Life experiences can help this in a child.

For instance a child is in a family who does not have any food. The child then becomes a 12 yr old working at a ladder factory to then give his mother money. This aids in the maturity of the child who feels they must support himself or the family.

But this same young man who worked for a living at 12 at the ladder factory until he was 19-20. This young man is not as mature as he should be. The fact being he is still a child. A child who grows up because of situations such as this never were children.

This is one example of how it can cause good and bad maturity. Does that make sense.

A child will also exhibit maturity if they are allowed to grow up properly. When mothers always baby a child they do not wish to go on. Or grow up. They feel like they need a bottle for all eternity. This is because they have been bottle fed throughout there childhood up to adolscense.

I on the other hand think children will be more mature if they are allowed to express things like an adult. I talk to my daughter as I would a grown up. She talked at a real early age. Unlike many children who are baby talked will be less likely to have a mindset of an adult when it is time.

i have always considered the comment "grow up" to be a compliment. Children have not yet been fully conformed to fit the social model and thus still hold the potential of discovery. The worst thing one can do is derail the potential of the future with the dogma of today.

i say that you should treat the child according to what you wish the adult to be. Childhood is fleeting.

Hmm.. that is an interesting question. My daughter is a very open, loving person who wears her heart on her sleeve. I have seen the "in" girls treat her horribly, and then when they dump one of their own out of that same "in" crowd, I've seen my daughter take that girl into her group, even after they have done or said something horrible to her. I get more angry over some of the treatment I see towards her than she does.

She has a tight little group of about five girls she runs with and they are all the same. The one difference I have seen in these girls that my daughter hangs out with that is different, is that they are more free to express themselves at home. A lot of the parents in my daughter's little group do not pound discriminatory ideas into their heads or teach them their way is the only way.

I would like to say my daughter learns it from me, but unfortunately, my daughter teaches me more tolerance than I teach her. The one thing I do teach her is there is never one right way, one right color, one right religion, etc..... I teach my daughter it is more about what is in your heart and soul and how you treat others than anything else. She is definitely better on the forgiving aspect of all of this, though!

What do you think Sherri and 101?