Hi Everybody!

It has been forever since I have been on this particular forum. I do not know how many of you watch The Today Show with Matt Lauer? I personally do not, but I saw a video clip of the show recently where they were talking about a new theory of the Catholic church about babies that die before baptism.

Apparently, the church was teaching that these children go to a "limbo", because they were not baptized. Now, I never thought about this before, it is a situation I thankfully have never come across, but I personally believe that if something as devastating as this should happen, God would have a place for them. I am Christian, but do not have a specific denomination. I guess in the past the church felt it was too harsh to say they would go to Hell, but did not want to say they went to Heaven because they were not baptized. I guess they are now considering eliminating the limbo idea from their teachings.

This whole theory amazes me. Now I did not put this in the other section, because I do not want any derogatory remarks. I would just like to know what other religions feel on this topic? For myself, I feel God has a definite place for these babies, there is no limbo. It amazes me how complex and different all our religions are. You could study religions for a lifetime and still discover something new.

I have added the link below for those who want to watch the video clip.

http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=85cbf221...b4811ca&f=06/64

That attitude hasn't changed. My mother-in-law absolutly freaked out when she learned we weren't baptizing her granddaughter, and brought up the same concerns.

The Christian world seems to have no problem condemning a newborn to 'limbo', but at least its better than in the bad olde days, when the poor infant was consigned to 'hell'.

Sorry to hear about that conflict in the family, I can sympathize as my family is a mix of religions!

I just want to say that this theory is not a "Christian" theory as a whole. Some Christians believe this, I do not. I am Christian and do not believe this to be the case, that is why I posted. I want to know what others believe. I know in some religions you are not even baptized until you are much older and more able to make that decision for yourself.

Well, as an exroman catholic, the child is christened, and symbolically baptized. That is also where the god parents are chosen and vow to teach the child in the ways of the church. Later, usually around 6th grade, the child then takes part in the rites of confirmation, reaffirming a belief in god and the mother church. This is when the child chooses a confirmation name (usually with religious overtones like Paul, John, Mary, etc) to show that re-affirmation.

Pretty much sums it up well, they just say whatever suits them best...

Babies who are not baptized are under the age of accountability. Therefore do not suffer any penalization for not being Baptized. It's absurd to think they go to some "Limbo" state. how in the world is THAT Biblical? The purpose of Baptism is to symbolically wash away the sins and cleanse the being from all unrighteuosness. This is done publicly as a profession of faith.

Is this necessary for a baby? Do they have sins that need to be washed away? Not sins of the parents, or generational sins....I'm talking about personal sins. The answer would be...No. So why Baptize them. Part of receiving personal salvation is publicly professing your faith and receiving the baptism....which would be a personal decision...not a decision that someone can make for you when you are a young child.

Under the age of accountability, which is basically "old enough to know right from wrong".....straight to Heaven. Bible says, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

The idea of unbaptized babies going off into some type of "limbo" is just about the same concept of adults dieing and ending off to "purgetory"... Neither concept is even Hinted at anywhere in the Holy Bible, as it makes it quite plan that there are only twp places to one to go into after this life, either Heaven to be with the Lord, or else into place commonly known as Hell..

King David lamented that his new born baby had died, yet had the hope that one day He would go to where he wasw now at, and David knew that God had heaven for him to come... Also, Jesus many times asked for the children to come unto Him, even when his adult followers tried to scoot them away... Kingdom of heaven comporised of such as these, and the little children angels are before Father of Jesus all the time... So it would appear that God assigns some type of guardian angel to watch over the "little ones"...

Finally, the Cross was where the Grace of God was manifasted to ultimate degree, and just as Sin came through one Man, Adam, through second Adam, Jesus, grace came and abounds so much more... It appears that the Cross nad resurrection of Christ enables God to forgive totally the sins done by those under age of accountability, and that would include Aborted babies, new borns, small children, and Adults who are mentally impaired to a degree that makes it impossible to grasp and understand the Gospel message..

So under this understanding, ALL babies would be covered by the blood of Christ, and thus be able to go to Heaven to be with Him... How they appear when there, either infent or full grown, Bible is silent, but trust Gosd will work it out right...

other way of looking at this is that God would know who would have received Jesus as their Messiah if they were able to have grown up and live to adulthood, and He would thus apply the blood of Christ and Grace to those who wopuld have been elected unto Christ, but I prefer the former Biblical understanding at this time...

I'm sorry, but that is such a horrible mental image.
And folks wonder why the christians get bad press........

Thank you for the straight-forward answer. Being as I am not Catholic, I did not know how involved that process is... you summed it up nicely in one short package! But, why do you choose a confirmation name?

It is a symbolic expression much like your freedom and democracy was attained by the blood of soldiers on the battle field.
Irish

None of my children are baptized. Reason is I don't feel I have the right to indoctrinate them into a religion as was done to me by my parents...They can choose to later on in life if they wish to, and I'll support them in their choice, but it has it be their choice.

I know that.

But the mental image conjured by "blood of soldiers on the battle field" is not a pretty picture, niether is "ALL babies would be covered by the blood of Christ.

just rather gory, is all I'm suggesting. I've never liked the connotations of the 'body and blood' since chilhood.

@ Amy: The confirmation name is just that. You are publicly confirming your relationship to god and mother church.

Ahh... Another case of those lying Catholics. I presume the Pope never read that part of the Bible that says people shouldn't be baptised until they're adults.

Thank you... I guess I just don't understand the concept of needing to take another name confirm your belief. To me, that is just more ceremonial and not having much to do with the belief itself.

I've been confirmed, & I don't recall choosing a name, but being assigned a patron saint...Mine was St. Bernard btw...But it's been alot of years and my memory isn't getting any better.

That is kind of cool, being assigned a patron saint.... is the thought behind that one of the patron saint playing a role of your "protector"? kind of like a guardian angel?

IMO religion is a buisness, its been common throughout history for the churches to revise beleifs to encourage existing members and new members (to stay to join), the Catholic church (of which i am also an ex) is a society of its own IMO , they take the constructs of the bible and see if what it is they want ( more membership) can somehow be changed to apease members and lure new members, To a religious person the bible is the word of god and infallable and not subject to questioning, but can it be interpreted in another way, change peoples minds and you can influence them IMO, Namaste Sheri

Sherri:

I can respect that opinion. I constantly have people questioning whether or not I have "the spirit" with me because I no longer go to church. I am not Catholic, but I have struggled with the structure of my own church and have finally thrown my hands up in the air and spent the last two years reflecting on what I believe and what I need. I am still a Christian, (for me being Christian just simply means you believe in Christ) and I find it offensive when a church goer questions my morals or beliefs because I choose not to attend church. But, I am finding that in a church setting, you get the man-made version of God. Does that make sense?

. Simply put, babies and retarded people, which cannot distinguish right from wrong, cannot sin, and they don't need to be saved. They will go to heaven at death. [Probably, be allowed to be adults in heaven, but I am not sure of that.]
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin.
Sin is not imputed where there is no law. If they can't understand right from wrong sin is not imputed to them. Paul was the son of a pharisee, and the only time he would have been alive without the law is as a little child unable to know right from wrong. When the commandment came to him he sinned and died spiritually. That is what happens when a child of 6 or 7, who can know right from wrong commits his first sin. He needs to believe in Jesus and be saved to have that sin forgiven.
Gentiles and heathen that are old enough to understand right from wrong will have something about God revealed to them in their hearts and minds, being understood by the things that He created, and they will have something about what is right and what is wrong revealed to them also [Romans 1:20, 2:14,15]
Going along with what is said in Romans 14, if a person believes something to be a sin and he does it anyway, then to him it is a sin. [Paul used the eating of meat by those that thought it was a sin to do so as an example of this.]
So, around the age of 6 or 7, when a child can distinguish right from wrong. He will believe that some things are right and somethings are wrong. Satan will tempt him to do what he believes to be wrong, and he commits his first sin. He needs to believe in Jesus as his saviour to be forgiven of that sin or he will go to hell.
Before that age, there is no law of right and wrong in the child's mind, and sin is not imputed where there is no law. So he cannot have sin imputed to him and he will go to heaven if he dies.
What was inherited from Adam and Eve is the rebellious nature to sin, but the child cannot sin until he can distinguish right from wrong.

2 Samuel 12:22
David said at his death he would go to be with his dead baby son. David went to heaven.

The Bible says to "Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he shall not depart from it."

As a parent, you are the one who is physically, emotionally, and spiritually responsible for their well-being. Not telling you how to parent your child, but you should really lead them..not let them choose their own path....this, more often than not, leads to destruction and turmoil.

Again, please take no offense, I'm just pointing something out.

However....Wise decision on the baptism aspect. They should really have a full understanding of it's meaning and significance before taking part in baptism. If you ask your children why they want to be baptised, and they cannot offer a really good reason....they're not ready for it.
for those of you who may wonder if your child is ready, or if your children have questions, consult your pastor (if you have one). It's his/herjob to take care of his flock. Your pastor can steer you in the right direction.

Which translates to me as "brainwashing"

I've seen on this forum over and over that religion is something very important to people...in fact, it actually defines how they veiw the world around them. Now, I could get into how I consider religion a very dangerous leash on society as a direct result of this, but I won't...instead I'll just say that it's something so fundamental nobody has a right to choose it for someone else, not even a parent.

A parent can teach right from wrong, they can teach how to be polite...but religion? No, definately not.

A parent will teach their children from the example they set for themselves. If a parent is bigoted the child will learn to be a bigot. If a parent is tolerant the child will learn to be tolerant. It has nothing to do with brainwashing, whatever you believe you will impart that belief upon your children even if you are Atheist. That is the foundation of your child’s learning and when they are mature enough they will decide whether you taught them a valuable lesson or not.
Irish

Nothing happens to them, they don't go to limbo. Limbo is a realm between the living and the complete crossover which would be the plane where you go next once you expire from your body and continue the next stage of life. that space in between kids don't stay, less they were violently killed and they were clinching for life. That state holds many entities that fall in this category, regardless if they were young or old. Violent death usually sends them into limbo. Where they avidly try to live life, as though they were in the flesh.

The church fails to tell people the complete truth, because they fear then no one would be motivated enough to get **** done now, 'if i don't , i'll do it the next life.' I used to be religious, until the truth found me. For instance hell is not an inferno, and does not exist. . . . hell is a place of pain, agony, confusion, hatred, and things are unexplainable, sounds like a place we know, yeah, here on earth. The way I see living its a playing field for the spirit to grow and learn, and once the flesh expires, the spirit returns home and is made better for the next time, if it chooses. Every story needs a hero, and every hero must have a villain, so the church makes this thing up to hasten people to act and convict to something that is really unbeneficiary to the soul. And quickly says let us grow, by saying if children are not baptized they are in limbo if they died prematurely. You can experiment yourself, when a baby is asleep ask them questions, see if they won't respond to the best as audibly comprehensible of what is on the other side. The term, the kid looks wise, like he/she been here before. . . . YOU THINK.

This thing about when we die we go to heaven. Well, when we die/expire, its not heaven, its more like haven. its safe, pure, its good, but only the living that died goes there. Be it four legged or two. It is earth, the better earth without all the mayhem we have, and confusing things, and ****ed priest pulling the kids ear at the same time preaching and molesting. What ever you can think that is bad, doesn't exist there, not in that earth, a realm parallel to ours. Heaven, was made for the angelic ones, the arch, seraphine, and so on angels. Not for the ones ones in flesh. When we die, no matter how we go, its just a pause, as if you were reading this post and came up to a comma. Its not a stop like a period, or an exclamation mark where the reader heightens their voice to show the exclamation mark. Its just a pause, and then you move on to the next part of life.

There is no absolute one road to being saved, all roads lead to one plane. I have encountered many entities and of many religion, and not one has ever said this is the way safely home. To me, I see everyone as an interesting character that come here and act out a part best he/she can and then leaves. However, while they are here they may cause so much confusion, that they themselves are confused and convicted to it and through the process of death they are again cleansed of the confusion. If you want to know about living don't ask the living, because they are lost, looking for that answer. Ask the dead. After much of my experience I can not say I look at the man-made christ the same, at most he is a prophet, God is God, and I can not say that God is he or she, or favored one nation, or started with one man and woman. The language of the dead is aramaic. It says adhim, not adam. adhim. . . means humanity.

The concept of a protector, is also wrong. When you come to live in the flesh, you must have a guide, so everyone has a spirit guide, they also have a few angelic beings that eases their mind and feelings during trying times. The thing of assigning a patron saint, is just for kicks, laughter for the other realm at best. We are never alone. God does not need confirmation, God made the souls, and the flesh, so God does not need to know the relationship that's there, does not need to asked did you see me make it. Its like a person, baking, or making something, you pour sweat, blood at times, time and energy into it. Once you are done, you know you made it, and it knows you made it. The only complaint I have about this realm is that some fleshly pleasures make it hard for when the time comes (the pause)/(the transition) for it to occur without wanting to hold on to it, and that endures a bit of fear and doubt of whatever you may hold to be true; even if you know or have an idea of the crossover.

OMG! They are so full of b*llsh!t. Babies go straight to heaven weather they have been baptized or not. Geez, I hate people who think like that. Now, you said there is no limbo, I don't want cause an arguement but there is a limbo. After some people die they don't realize that they are dead (that's where ghost come in). So, they are stuck between the human world and the spiritual world. Sometimes they even have unfinish busniess they want to finish before crossing over or in some cases they don't know how to cross over. I don't know if that makes much sense but that's what I think.

Don't worry, there is no offence taken...I was trained up in the way "I should go" and I departed from it, along with many others on these boards.

You are correct, I am responsible for my children physically, emotionally, & spiritually. Once they are adults I want them asking questions, not thinking they know all the answers. They are all pretty well grounded in reality, intelligent, respectful, thoughtful, & compassionate children. I teach them to think critically, ask questions, and find the answers for themselves...If that is wrong in your opinion, well that is just the way it is.

Destruction and turmoil is part of life, it is not exclusive to those who are not christians. Contrary to what you may think, there are other ways to find peace & solace, if you can find it in your religion, good for you...I have no pastor to steer me any direction, I found I much prefer picking my own way, and sitting on a river bank fishing is where I've found more peace than any church I've ever been in.

Above all else my children know that I love them & as long as I'm alive will do whatever I can to help them, unconditionally, because they are my children.

No offence, but I'm going to raise my children the way I see fit, thank you for your concern though.

bravo knothere. well said.

That is a good reason to let your child get baptized - on his her terms. Not the parents. Thank you for the post.

Thank you for your straight forward reply. I enjoyed reading your post.


Knothere, you sound like an awesome parent! I like how you handled your response.

I'm quasi-Christian but not religious. My sisters and I were baptized as babies and my sister has baptized her children. When my children were born and I held them for the first time, I spoke to God and thanked him for my kids, asked him to help me look after them, and promised I would do my best to raise them correctly.

I just didn't find it necessary to go to a big fancy building and have some stranger (the pastor) dribble water on my kid's head in order to attract God's attention.

The Church is full of tradition, pomp, and ritual. It's all hogwash to me.

in case you havent figured it out yet, christianity is not a dead religion. keep referring to the bible as infallible and you wont know god. the christian church didnt stop being alive whe the bible was put together, or the events surrounding jesus and the 12 happened. what i mean by alive, is that god continues to work with us everyday. miracles happen everyday. we dont see those miracles unless they were meant for us. public miracles are rare.

those lying catholics are not bound to their religion by the bible as most baptists and other protestants are. instead, they use the bible as a reference as it was meant to be used. the bible doesnt make the religion but the religion makes the bible. so if we catholics decide something then we are allowed to. the christian church is alive and changing with humanity. if you would like to bapitze your baby when he/she is an infant, is there anything wrong with this? i mean really wrong? or are you going to shake the bible at me.? what makes it wrong, maybe you would like to try to argue details of the bible, a book that is 2000 years old. ex:abortion isnt mentioned in the bible, so it must be ok right? wrong, god gives us the religious freedom to worship him as we see fit as a "church" he did say "do this in rememberance of me" right? well is that all we are supposed to do when we worship god? no of course not!! that would be over in ten minutes. and yet many protestant faiths do not take communion(the eucharist) seriously. so maybe you should take a closer, more pious approach to the catholic church.

sherri step outside the box for a moment. you are ex catholic? did you have alot of protestant friends? it sounds like it the way you are referencing the bible. the catholic church put it together after all. they created it. they have the right to change it or use certain parts of it as they see fit. wouldnt you grant those rights of an author of a novel?--to change his story as he sees fit? this is the churches creation, but protestants have latched on to it, so they might as wellbe catholics too.

\

well here i have to ask:

do you love your child?

if you did and you were a believer, then you would baptize them out of love for them. this does no harm. then teach them the right path.

so you would not teach your child to look both ways before crossing the road?

oops forgot to add: regarding the parents not teaching religion...

then you dont understand faith........

So, pbarosso, what you are saying is that the Bible is fallible? That's the impression I got. And why do you feel like you have to say that Christianity isn't a dead religion- everyone knows that. It seems that someone has some doubts about their faith- why don't you read my signature.

I understand faith just fine...I also understand that you put faith into assuming I don't teach my kids religion, and your faith wasn't based on anything but what you believe to be.

My children are aware of religion, it's not like they cannot be in the world today. They have friends of various different religious background, and they ask questions about those religions. I direct them to the places where they can find the answers to their questions. They are aware of the fundementals belief systems regarding most of worlds major religions. I'd not be doing my job as a parent if they didn't, they will inevetitably be faced with it as an adult.

Difference is, my children will look at those things in an objective manner & will choose where to put their faith, and when they someday tell me what religion they choose to place their faith in, or not, I will be happy with whatever choice they have made. It is after all their choice, their decision, & their faith. If your child comes home and tells you other than what you expect them to tell you concerning their faith, are you going to be happy for them?

You see, I know what faith is, and I have faith in my children & their ability to think for themselves. I also have faith in them comming to me when they can't find the answer they are looking for to ask for help. I have faith that my children trust my guidance, and will seek it when they feel they need to. I have faith in my love for them no matter what they choose to do with their life or what they choose to believe, & my home will always be open to them. I have faith that the tolerance and respect for others I teach them will be met with tolerance and respect for them...I also have faith they will meet many people in life that have no tolerance & respect for others that don't believe what they do, and know my children will always question it.

I know what faith is, I think it is you that doesn't.

If you did and you were a believer then you would bring your child up with good morals and teach your child right from wrong..then and only then when your child is old enough to understand the Christian faith and to make his/her descision can they ask to be baptized. No point in doing it as a baby as it is a personal descision(read the Bible). I was dedicated as a baby meaning my parents publicly thanked God for my birth..but baptizing should be totally MY choice..

well sorry to copy the whole dang thing: it is good to hear that there will be a few more good people on earth. your beliefs differ from mine. and you are etitled to those beliefs.

anyways:
do your kids know their grandparents?

the answer is probably yes. right?

our children should know who god is, as he is not something to be taken lightly. he is part of our families, and our children deserve to have an understanding of this principle. i feel that if our children dont know god throughout their lives then they are at a disadvantage already. not to say that they couldnt do just fine without god until they are old enough, but i wont take that chance. i have known god my entire life and it has provided me with many blessings. as a child of maybe five my father would take us for walks in the hills near the central valley in california. no body around. while we walked he would say his rosary, and we were encouraged to talk with god. during these and other outings many things hapened that i would pray for. not selfish things, but things that made me put my faith in god.

you see it is the teacher that can help open the eyes, but no matter how young (or old) it is you that makes the decision to one your eyes and have faith. no one makes faith for another person. only god can do that. but it all depends how a person is taught. if a religion is forced down someones throat, then often times he or she will come to resent it and fall away.

and you really cant make a statement that i dont know what faith is because the forum could not hold the converstation, it would be too long. you dont know me! the statement you made is filled with ego and pride. almost as if you have the need to take a dump on someone so you can feel big and feel like you do know what faith is. the reason you make this statement is because you dont know what faith is, or you are scared that you may not have all the answers, so you lash out to hide that fact.

so if you really believed in god, you would have no doubt about letting you children know who he is. because he would be real to you.

well even the catholic church belives in science, havent you read the news lately? if everyone and you understood what i mean when i say that, then you would not question it. the bible can be picked apart, but its message cannot.

dead, meaning that everything-all the answers are in the bible. so some would have that christianity is bound between the covers of the bible. are you telling me that the story ends there? ends on the last page of the bible? it does not, for god is a living god, and everyday is anew. things that are worthy of being recorded are and have been recorded, but mainly by the catholic church. but we do not add those recordings to the bible, no, they are simply added to the catholic library. that is why i am a catholic. i have investigated other christian religions, and found those churches good, but lacking, empty almost. the fellowshipping is there,the worship is there, but what about the celebration of the sacraments? what about the tradition? what about the wealth of knowledge?

well it is still a personal decision, when you are older. would you like to have a child and then have him or her not have your last name, so they could pick one when they are older? so they could make a personal decision? maybe they would pick some other name because your wasnt good enough or something?

you know of course you would shake the bible at me, its probably all you understand when it comes to christianity. the church has the power to decide. christ did tell peter to feed his sheep, he put him in charge. so the chair of the bishop of rome (pope) and the church have the power to decide the policies. catholic dogmas and doctrine are no different than most fundamental protestant churches, here read some

http://www.ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/BAPTISM.TXT

http://www.ewtn.com/vlibrary/search.asp

Whatever. Go read what you wrote and tell me again about ego.

I actually have a very open mind when it comes to Christianty..and I dont tend to 'shake' the Bible at anybody. I just dont get why people want to be bogged down with unnessary Catholic dogmas and doctrine when a lot of them arent even Biblical.

yes but that last statement is indeed referring to the bible again. but heck you are right about being bogged down. there are way too many rules in the catholic church. dont get me wrong, i am catholic, but i think it could be better. less confusion, more strictness. pope benedictine is very strict, as he was in charge of upholding church doctrine. may be he will fix it?

Ya, former Nazi claiming to be a "conscientious objector" (interesting this came about at the end of the war when loss was eminent) should be able to whip the whole affair into shape. I'm sure if allowed he may even bring back witch burning? Is that strict enough for your tastes?

You forgot the 'Papal Bull' stating that we 'Injuns' do not have souls therefore we are subhuman animals. Next time your on the Rez pick up last months 'Indian Country Today' they have a whole article on it and how it justified the slave trade and that letters from the AIM and NAIDV to Rome to retract or abolish it are completely ignored.

Lapi'che

I actually can't believe you even needed to ask that question," do you love your child?". This is what gets people fired up Christian fundamentalists/radicals that spurt out this crap and say to there own convictions why not do it,it harms know one........ Actually that statement you made harmed me,well not really.

Really were can you say to a non practising or practicing christian that decides not to baptise will hurt the child in anyway,are you being radical/serious/sarcastic/funny what? So people who don't baptise there children don't love them? and are teaching them immoral ways? WOW step away from the bible, slowly, you are in grave danger.......

By the way would you teach your child to cross the street with a stanger?

Don't need to read anything, I'm familiar with the smell.

The only person in my family to be baptized, for almost four generations, was my cousin. And shes a notorious attention whore.

If non-baptized people go to the Christian hell...well, at least we'll have a fair idea of what our hell will be...another family reunion (without the predictable dumbarse cousin dancing around on the tables and hitting on her cousins and brothers).

yeah? why would you bring up that stuff. you know darn well that that game will get you into trouble. obvioulsy the people awho made those documents or held those beliefs were wrong, duhhh.. we could get into a fight if i made statements about native americans akin your arguments. there is lots to dig up. but i have a super respect for native americans, and dont think that they were treated right. and that is the past.

now do you have anything to add regarding baptism?

maybe you are anot understanding.

hurt, as in to be in any way negative.

and parents who know god and love their children will teach their kids about god. if you truly know who god is and truly believe he exists, then you would feel compulsed to teach them who he is. because he would be just as real as your father. of course if you dont truly know god, then you wouldnt feel the need to teach them about god. and any one who says they do, yet dont teach, have a funny way of showing that they absolutley believe in him.

god is as real to me as my own father is. therefore i have to teach my kids about him, if i want them to know him too.

does that make sense?

To me, belief is a choice. I have a son, only eighteen months old, thus not yet able to grasp too much, at least not something like a divine concept. But I will tell him about it, when he is ready - tell him, but not teach him. I want him to choose God if he sees fit. Therefor I will not baptize him, unless he is old enough and asks for it. I want him to believe in God but not only believe me.

Personally, I do not see the necessity for batism at all, unless symbolically. Maybe that is, because I have a very open and liberal belief. Being created after his image, I think of God as humane in return. And I think of him as friendly and good, but not egotistic and egocentric. I do not think that, as long as we live in the boundaries of his teachings, he does not mind whether we believe in him or not. But that is just mine and I hope you do not feel offended by it.

-DB