for the past year i have been thinking about this,,,,,,,,,,,
what do angels do? they watch over humans and guide soceity
what do eastern dragons do? they watch over humans and guide soceity
think about it,,,asians believe that at the center of Earth rests the eternal dragon,,,,what also rests at the near center of Earth? hell does,,,,,,i even heard from many near death experiencers that said Satan was a dragon,,,,,,,wasn't Satan once a rogue angel? Lucifer the rogue angel,,,,if Satan is an angel and a dragon, then other angels are dragons too,,,,,the eastern belief was that dragons were holy beings that watched over humans and guided us,,,,,,the same thing that angels do
i believe that the angel image we have is a personification and symbolism rather than actual reality, now real angels must be dragons
now, in the past we have many pictures and images of dragons alllll around the world,,,,but no recordings of dragons actually going extinct or mass killing of dragons,,,they never died because they weren't mortal creatures
if you're thinking of some of the more evil looking dragons,, i'm not saying that all types of dragons were holy,, just certain ones
Full Version: dragons and angels
Hmmm... That is a very interesting post. I don't really have anything to say.. sorry. 
Well, you have just bitten off more than you can chew....
You'll have your hands full once DC gets here
Oh, BTW, there are about 3 other threads for this topic....use the search feature....sometimes the mods don't like this...
There is one here in the Cryptozoology forum, and another in the paleontology forum.
You'll have your hands full once DC gets here
Oh, BTW, there are about 3 other threads for this topic....use the search feature....sometimes the mods don't like this...
There is one here in the Cryptozoology forum, and another in the paleontology forum.
QUOTE
Well, you have just bitten off more than you can chew
frogfish is right.
Brain hurting... I think a dragon was once a real creature and that spirits can take the form of creatures. Angels and demons can be in many forms... so that is my answer.
I see what you are doing, you are trying to connect Dragons to the Angels of Christian belief. Good for you for questioning a belief.
QUOTE(shadowtiger17 @ Dec 3 2005, 11:25 PM) [snapback]960035[/snapback]
for the past year i have been thinking about this,,,,,,,,,,,
i believe that the angel image we have is a personification and symbolism rather than actual reality, now real angels must be dragons
now, in the past we have many pictures and images of dragons alllll around the world,,,,but no recordings of dragons actually going extinct or mass killing of dragons,,,they never died because they weren't mortal creatures
if you're thinking of some of the more evil looking dragons,, i'm not saying that all types of dragons were holy,, just certain ones
I've theorized along those lines.
If angels and demons are otherworldly, ageless semi-divine creatures of immense power, then they probably wouldn't look just like humans. Maybe they ASSUME human form to interact better with us. OR maybe it's just our primitive, monkey brain that sees them in that human form.
Draconic angels???? OMG!!!!! What a concept! I like the way your mnd works.
Shadowtiger,
I shared your same thoughts about the "connection" between dragons and angels, only a few years later, and ever since, have been researching this intriguing subject, and can say, you are right about your conclusions.
If you go to those threads mentioned by Frogfish, you will see the connection between dragons and angels. I am just completing a fairly massive book on this subject which will contain footnotes to all the original sources and photographs of actual artifacts that substantiate the claims I make.
It is pointless to argue whether or not God and His angels and "dragons" are "real" , but my book does prove (as the orignal scripures themsleves), that both the early Christians and Jews understood that dragons were a kind of heavenly servant-creatures to God. This is beyond dispute, the original hebrew texts prove this, and we see an exact parallel in the other religions of the regions of these same "dragons" serving the same functions. Even the greatest theologians of the catholic church acknowledged dragons are heavenly creatures in the past, but have changed their views to "cowtow" to modern sensibilities. But their writings confirming the original church views on dragons have not been destroyed and are accessible, some, even on the internet.
In more modern times, various Christian denominations have "rewritten" the Bible vainly attempting to wipe out all traces of the heavenly dragons, but is is a hopeless tasks, because they could not rewrite the orignal scripturew in Hebrew, plus new archaeological discoveries, including whole books of scripture which the Catholics tried to destroy, only add more evidence of the "dragons", which curiously, appear in virtually every other world culture as well, and rarely as a "symbol" of evil, but rather, power and wisdom, just as the ancient Hebrew and Christian scriptures also originally portrayed them. Jesus even said as much, but here again the scriptures have been perverted by well-meaning theologians who erroneously connect anything about "dragons" with "Satan", and have edited their versions of the Bible accordingly.
I shared your same thoughts about the "connection" between dragons and angels, only a few years later, and ever since, have been researching this intriguing subject, and can say, you are right about your conclusions.
If you go to those threads mentioned by Frogfish, you will see the connection between dragons and angels. I am just completing a fairly massive book on this subject which will contain footnotes to all the original sources and photographs of actual artifacts that substantiate the claims I make.
It is pointless to argue whether or not God and His angels and "dragons" are "real" , but my book does prove (as the orignal scripures themsleves), that both the early Christians and Jews understood that dragons were a kind of heavenly servant-creatures to God. This is beyond dispute, the original hebrew texts prove this, and we see an exact parallel in the other religions of the regions of these same "dragons" serving the same functions. Even the greatest theologians of the catholic church acknowledged dragons are heavenly creatures in the past, but have changed their views to "cowtow" to modern sensibilities. But their writings confirming the original church views on dragons have not been destroyed and are accessible, some, even on the internet.
In more modern times, various Christian denominations have "rewritten" the Bible vainly attempting to wipe out all traces of the heavenly dragons, but is is a hopeless tasks, because they could not rewrite the orignal scripturew in Hebrew, plus new archaeological discoveries, including whole books of scripture which the Catholics tried to destroy, only add more evidence of the "dragons", which curiously, appear in virtually every other world culture as well, and rarely as a "symbol" of evil, but rather, power and wisdom, just as the ancient Hebrew and Christian scriptures also originally portrayed them. Jesus even said as much, but here again the scriptures have been perverted by well-meaning theologians who erroneously connect anything about "dragons" with "Satan", and have edited their versions of the Bible accordingly.
DC is there a name for the book yet?
QUOTE(draconic chronicler @ Dec 4 2005, 01:31 PM) [snapback]960913[/snapback]
Shadowtiger,
I shared your same thoughts about the "connection" between dragons and angels, only a few years later, and ever since, have been researching this intriguing subject, and can say, you are right about your conclusions.
If you go to those threads mentioned by Frogfish, you will see the connection between dragons and angels. I am just completing a fairly massive book on this subject which will contain footnotes to all the original sources and photographs of actual artifacts that substantiate the claims I make.
It is pointless to argue whether or not God and His angels and "dragons" are "real" , but my book does prove (as the orignal scripures themsleves), that both the early Christians and Jews understood that dragons were a kind of heavenly servant-creatures to God. This is beyond dispute, the original hebrew texts prove this, and we see an exact parallel in the other religions of the regions of these same "dragons" serving the same functions. Even the greatest theologians of the catholic church acknowledged dragons are heavenly creatures in the past, but have changed their views to "cowtow" to modern sensibilities. But their writings confirming the original church views on dragons have not been destroyed and are accessible, some, even on the internet.
In more modern times, various Christian denominations have "rewritten" the Bible vainly attempting to wipe out all traces of the heavenly dragons, but is is a hopeless tasks, because they could not rewrite the orignal scripturew in Hebrew, plus new archaeological discoveries, including whole books of scripture which the Catholics tried to destroy, only add more evidence of the "dragons", which curiously, appear in virtually every other world culture as well, and rarely as a "symbol" of evil, but rather, power and wisdom, just as the ancient Hebrew and Christian scriptures also originally portrayed them. Jesus even said as much, but here again the scriptures have been perverted by well-meaning theologians who erroneously connect anything about "dragons" with "Satan", and have edited their versions of the Bible accordingly.
interesting,,,,now i'm convinced that dragons are angelic,,,,,here's also another very interesting piece of information that i almost forgot to tell
eastern dragons are said to cross breed with different animals to create new species (they were creatures of creation) the dragon cross bred with the pig to make the elephant,,,,,and they also bred with humans (can't imagine having sex with a dragon,,ok with me though)----now the case with Lucifer, how he was punished by God, if i remember correctly, goes like this: he led his band of angels to sweep down and steal the women, and impregnated them (and he did some other things) but their babies became giants, giants which caused destruction against humans because of their grudges towards their rejection----------angels breeding with humans to make giants? further convinces me
Shadowtiger,
If you go to the dragons and dinosaurs thread in the paleontology section, I explain that eastern and western dragons were originally the same thing.
It is now known that Lucifer never existed. He is a mistranslation of a paggage about king Nebbuchanezzer. There is a lot of info right here on UM that explains this, but also websites and books.
Without Lucifer, there is no war in heaven. This is another mistranslation of a very minor incident of some angels desiring sex with with human women. This story has been largely edited out of todays Bible, but can be found in the Book of Enoch.
There is no evidence other than the Lucifier mythos that Satan was ever an "angel". In all liklihood he was always a Seraph-dragon, the highest ranked of hevenly creatures. There is also no evidence he led any revolt, or was even the serpent in the Garden. If you go to the Book of Job, you find Satan still considered among the "Sons of God", and is still doing his job of going about the earth and reporting man's inquitities to God.
Satan does not become an "evil diety" until the post exile-Jewish/early Christian era when zorastrian persian ideas of "dualism" strongly influenced later Jewish thought, and especially the early Christian theology. Before this you do not see this idea of a battle between good and evil. This actually conflicts with a true monotheism.
To illustrate how much Christianity imitated Zorastrianism you need only go to revelation and see that St. John imitated Zorastrian theology to the letter. Michael supposedly wraps the dragon Satan in chains and throws him into the abyss where he remains for 1000 years. In the original zorastrian version written hundreds of years earlier, Ahura Mazda wraps the "evil" dragon Ahriman in a "magic belt", and throws him into the abyss for 1000 years. Also, in Zorastrian theology, dragons will destroy/devour one thierd of the human race in the end of days, in St. Johns version, they are fire spewing beasts with sharp teeth and snake-like tails, ridden by humans. If it is a real vision, these the "humans" were probably angels, because no angels in the bible have wings, the winged creatures are the Cherubim and Seraphim dragons.
But the point is, Satan seems to have been framed by the early Christian Church, so they would have a "bad" dragon like the Zorastrian Dragon Ahriman. Nowhere in the old testament endorsed by Jesus, is Satan an enemy of God or a fallen angel. This is all new testament invention to imitate the popular pagan persian zorastrianism which the early Christian Chruch had to compete with. It was this demonization of Satan by the Catholic Church which caused reference to all of the heavenly dragons largely covered up, and they were said instead to be regular, human-like angels.
If you go to the dragons and dinosaurs thread in the paleontology section, I explain that eastern and western dragons were originally the same thing.
It is now known that Lucifer never existed. He is a mistranslation of a paggage about king Nebbuchanezzer. There is a lot of info right here on UM that explains this, but also websites and books.
Without Lucifer, there is no war in heaven. This is another mistranslation of a very minor incident of some angels desiring sex with with human women. This story has been largely edited out of todays Bible, but can be found in the Book of Enoch.
There is no evidence other than the Lucifier mythos that Satan was ever an "angel". In all liklihood he was always a Seraph-dragon, the highest ranked of hevenly creatures. There is also no evidence he led any revolt, or was even the serpent in the Garden. If you go to the Book of Job, you find Satan still considered among the "Sons of God", and is still doing his job of going about the earth and reporting man's inquitities to God.
Satan does not become an "evil diety" until the post exile-Jewish/early Christian era when zorastrian persian ideas of "dualism" strongly influenced later Jewish thought, and especially the early Christian theology. Before this you do not see this idea of a battle between good and evil. This actually conflicts with a true monotheism.
To illustrate how much Christianity imitated Zorastrianism you need only go to revelation and see that St. John imitated Zorastrian theology to the letter. Michael supposedly wraps the dragon Satan in chains and throws him into the abyss where he remains for 1000 years. In the original zorastrian version written hundreds of years earlier, Ahura Mazda wraps the "evil" dragon Ahriman in a "magic belt", and throws him into the abyss for 1000 years. Also, in Zorastrian theology, dragons will destroy/devour one thierd of the human race in the end of days, in St. Johns version, they are fire spewing beasts with sharp teeth and snake-like tails, ridden by humans. If it is a real vision, these the "humans" were probably angels, because no angels in the bible have wings, the winged creatures are the Cherubim and Seraphim dragons.
But the point is, Satan seems to have been framed by the early Christian Church, so they would have a "bad" dragon like the Zorastrian Dragon Ahriman. Nowhere in the old testament endorsed by Jesus, is Satan an enemy of God or a fallen angel. This is all new testament invention to imitate the popular pagan persian zorastrianism which the early Christian Chruch had to compete with. It was this demonization of Satan by the Catholic Church which caused reference to all of the heavenly dragons largely covered up, and they were said instead to be regular, human-like angels.
QUOTE(draconic chronicler @ Dec 5 2005, 01:23 AM) [snapback]961655[/snapback]
Shadowtiger,
If you go to the dragons and dinosaurs thread in the paleontology section, I explain that eastern and western dragons were originally the same thing.
It is now known that Lucifer never existed. He is a mistranslation of a paggage about king Nebbuchanezzer. There is a lot of info right here on UM that explains this, but also websites and books.
Without Lucifer, there is no war in heaven. This is another mistranslation of a very minor incident of some angels desiring sex with with human women. This story has been largely edited out of todays Bible, but can be found in the Book of Enoch.
There is no evidence other than the Lucifier mythos that Satan was ever an "angel". In all liklihood he was always a Seraph-dragon, the highest ranked of hevenly creatures. There is also no evidence he led any revolt, or was even the serpent in the Garden. If you go to the Book of Job, you find Satan still considered among the "Sons of God", and is still doing his job of going about the earth and reporting man's inquitities to God.
Satan does not become an "evil diety" until the post exile-Jewish/early Christian era when zorastrian persian ideas of "dualism" strongly influenced later Jewish thought, and especially the early Christian theology. Before this you do not see this idea of a battle between good and evil. This actually conflicts with a true monotheism.
To illustrate how much Christianity imitated Zorastrianism you need only go to revelation and see that St. John imitated Zorastrian theology to the letter. Michael supposedly wraps the dragon Satan in chains and throws him into the abyss where he remains for 1000 years. In the original zorastrian version written hundreds of years earlier, Ahura Mazda wraps the "evil" dragon Ahriman in a "magic belt", and throws him into the abyss for 1000 years. Also, in Zorastrian theology, dragons will destroy/devour one thierd of the human race in the end of days, in St. Johns version, they are fire spewing beasts with sharp teeth and snake-like tails, ridden by humans. If it is a real vision, these the "humans" were probably angels, because no angels in the bible have wings, the winged creatures are the Cherubim and Seraphim dragons.
But the point is, Satan seems to have been framed by the early Christian Church, so they would have a "bad" dragon like the Zorastrian Dragon Ahriman. Nowhere in the old testament endorsed by Jesus, is Satan an enemy of God or a fallen angel. This is all new testament invention to imitate the popular pagan persian zorastrianism which the early Christian Chruch had to compete with. It was this demonization of Satan by the Catholic Church which caused reference to all of the heavenly dragons largely covered up, and they were said instead to be regular, human-like angels.
i didn't know that,,,,,,,,the whole thing with the angelic angels, i didn't know everyone else knew about it, i totally thought it up on my own,,,you see i spend hours studying things like these, and was inspired to study dragons once that one Discovery channel showed that thing about dragons------i learned about drakes (fire and ice,,yin yang kind of pair of dragons) Eastern Dragon (which turns out to be the uncorrupted version of the original dragon) and serpents, the serpents led to studies of creatures such as Leviathan, and Bahamut, the king of dragons, his size was inconceivable,,,but he carried the weight of the world i think,,,along his back were mountains, and volcanoes, and waterfalls were on him,,on his back was a bull or something,,, only ones who could see Bahamut was God and Jesus (maybe someone else, but i can't find a damn link to all this info i learned) Leviathan would consume the entire world if it weren't for Bahamut. Leviathan being the sister to Behemoth, the demon of the desert,,,biggest of the big, thought of as a giant elephant or a brachiosaurus- he's in the desert east of the garden of Eden------but therefore Bahamut is the dragon of creation
They are connected in that they are both imaginary creatures.
Die Checker,
Title has not been fixed yet, but you will know when it is read. Manuscript should be to publisher before Christmas, but always finding new things I want to add.
Shadow Tiger,
It is reall only "common" knowledge to serious biblical scholars who are not "brainwashed" by religious beliefs to the extent they will ignore what the scriptures actually say. As you will see yourself, there has been a tendency to reinterpret, and even "rewrite" the Bible to suit the tastes of each particular religion or cult. You can see this as early as the very beginnings of Christianity with the invention of the "evil" Satan in imitation of the evil dragon Ahriman of Zorastrianism, not to mention turning all of the other the Seraphim and Cherubim winged dragons to pagan Greco Roman humanoid angels by the Roman Catholics who were more comfortable with this notion of heavenly creatures. (Real angels of the Bible are indistinguishable from normal young men, without exception). There are some accounts of angels riding dragons in scriptures/literature not contained in the current Bible, and this may be what St. John also describes in Revelations, as it was dragons in the orignal Zorastrian version of the Apocolypes which he drew his information from. It is amusing how much of Christian theology was copied from the Zorastrian Persians, although one point where they drew the line, was that the Zorastrians also claim in their "Bible" the the Hebrew God was actually a dragon! I do not go so far to present this idea, but the only physical description of God referres to "fire coming from his mouth and smoke from his nostrils" in Psalms, but at the time, he is riding on a huge, winged Cherubim-dragon, so maybe the description of the fire and smoke was actually referring to the dragon he was riding.
It would be incorrect to think heavenly dragons are completely benificent. On the contrary, their role largely appears to be one of heavenly punishment and retribution. There are many passages of God "sending fire" to punish humans, sometimes from the mouth of God himself, or "angels" which originally were the Seraphim "fiery serpents/dragons. The original creature commanded to swallow Jonah was a Tannyn (dragon), not a fish or whale, and another Seraphim dragon, in some accounts Urriel, swallows Moses up to his legs and then releases him. This part has been edited out of the Bible, but appears in related Hebrew scriptures. Also edited out of the Bible, but still in the book of Jubilees, was the fact it was Satan sent to destroy the firstborn of Egypt, resumably leading the rest of the dragons. This is why the blood was placed on the lintels of the Hebrew homes, the dragons would smell the blood and "pass over' these places, leaving the occupants unharmed. The actual humanoid "Angels" of the bible primarily serve as messengers to mankind, for dragons would not be very discreet and too terrifying to humans . They seem to appear later on the scene than the dragons, which one can say is perfectly compatible with evolution and the extant fossil/geologic record.
Title has not been fixed yet, but you will know when it is read. Manuscript should be to publisher before Christmas, but always finding new things I want to add.
Shadow Tiger,
It is reall only "common" knowledge to serious biblical scholars who are not "brainwashed" by religious beliefs to the extent they will ignore what the scriptures actually say. As you will see yourself, there has been a tendency to reinterpret, and even "rewrite" the Bible to suit the tastes of each particular religion or cult. You can see this as early as the very beginnings of Christianity with the invention of the "evil" Satan in imitation of the evil dragon Ahriman of Zorastrianism, not to mention turning all of the other the Seraphim and Cherubim winged dragons to pagan Greco Roman humanoid angels by the Roman Catholics who were more comfortable with this notion of heavenly creatures. (Real angels of the Bible are indistinguishable from normal young men, without exception). There are some accounts of angels riding dragons in scriptures/literature not contained in the current Bible, and this may be what St. John also describes in Revelations, as it was dragons in the orignal Zorastrian version of the Apocolypes which he drew his information from. It is amusing how much of Christian theology was copied from the Zorastrian Persians, although one point where they drew the line, was that the Zorastrians also claim in their "Bible" the the Hebrew God was actually a dragon! I do not go so far to present this idea, but the only physical description of God referres to "fire coming from his mouth and smoke from his nostrils" in Psalms, but at the time, he is riding on a huge, winged Cherubim-dragon, so maybe the description of the fire and smoke was actually referring to the dragon he was riding.
It would be incorrect to think heavenly dragons are completely benificent. On the contrary, their role largely appears to be one of heavenly punishment and retribution. There are many passages of God "sending fire" to punish humans, sometimes from the mouth of God himself, or "angels" which originally were the Seraphim "fiery serpents/dragons. The original creature commanded to swallow Jonah was a Tannyn (dragon), not a fish or whale, and another Seraphim dragon, in some accounts Urriel, swallows Moses up to his legs and then releases him. This part has been edited out of the Bible, but appears in related Hebrew scriptures. Also edited out of the Bible, but still in the book of Jubilees, was the fact it was Satan sent to destroy the firstborn of Egypt, resumably leading the rest of the dragons. This is why the blood was placed on the lintels of the Hebrew homes, the dragons would smell the blood and "pass over' these places, leaving the occupants unharmed. The actual humanoid "Angels" of the bible primarily serve as messengers to mankind, for dragons would not be very discreet and too terrifying to humans . They seem to appear later on the scene than the dragons, which one can say is perfectly compatible with evolution and the extant fossil/geologic record.
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