Okay so i've heard numerous people on here talk about how much baloney the Bible is- and how its a laughable read, and completely untrue and a book of "evil" or what not. Yet i've recently been reading through my Bible and if all you non believers are open minded and "broad" i really urge the readings of Psalms and Proverbs. These chapters in the bible are beautifully written with many things we can relate to- even today. I cant help but roll my eyes at such negativity of the Bible- when theres readings like the ones below how could you entirely dismiss and negate the Bible? There's goodness in it. Basically i want to know if non believers have had a good read of the Bible and what their opinion is on the fantastic "Proverbs" Chapter? Below are a few of my favourite liners in there- that no one should be offended by as its non violent, non pushy and totally just in nature with its writing.

"The justice of the upright shall make his way prosperous: and the wicked man shall fall by his own wickedness." - Proverbs 11:5.

Meaning: I see great meaning in this, those that do bad- and use other people will get it back- whether it be via karma or by his own foolishness...the "wicked" could only go so far before they collapse on themselves.

"He that despiseth his friend, is mean of heart: but the wise man will hold his peace. "

Meaning: Well its pretty simple, be a genuine friend- dont be jealous- but hold peace with your friend.

"Better is the poor man that provideth for himself, than he that is glorious and wanteth bread. "

Meaning: Wow this one is really powerful and i agree. Your average joe that provides for himself is much more a man than the one that has it all, but still wants more.

"He that walketh with the wise, shall be wise: a friend of fools shall become like to them. "

Meaning: Simple and effective. Who you are with friendship wise is very important, for you can become just like them- is it a good thing? Well if he/she aint a fool then it is.

"The poor man shall be hateful even to his own neighbour: but the friends of the rich are many."

Meaning: Thousands of years on we are exactly the same arent we.

"A wise son maketh a father joyful: but the foolish man despiseth his mother."

Meaning: Well family values are very important. Agreed there.

"Get wisdom, because it is better than gold: and purchase prudence, for it is more precious than silver. "

Meaning: Many think that Bible believers are silly and "blind" yet this quote above in itself says become wise! Get wisdom! It supports making up your own mind and being smart about it.

"He that is a friend loveth at all times: and a brother is proved in distress."

Meaning: Many of us say we'll be there for our friends- but were we there for the thick and then? When your friend is distressed your true colors as a friend are revealed.

"He that answereth before he heareth, showeth himself to be a fool, and worthy of confusion."

Meaning: We live in a world of way too much talk- and very little listening. Yes we're confused!

"Meddle not with him that revealeth secrets, and walketh deceitfully, and openeth wide his lips."

Meaning: This is very true for many. Dont become friends with a gossiper as they often backstab. Been there done that.

"The joy of young men is their strength: and the dignity of old men, their grey hairs."

Meaning: I dont know, i really like this quote!!

"Every way of a man seemeth right to himself: but the Lord weigheth the hearts. "

Meaning: God seeks good hearts- its true we all believe we are right, but God weighs our hearts- hope you got a big one!

"Eat not with an envious man, and desire not his meats"

Meaning: Jealousy is a curse, so dont get involved in it. Dont give an envious man anything and dont expect anything from him.

"When thy enemy shall fall, be not glad, and in his ruin let not thy heart rejoice"

Meaning: Dont be happy about the misfortune of an enemy. Ive been guilty of this a couple of times.

"Boast not for tomorrow, for thou knowest not what the day to come may bring forth."

Meaning: We live by this idea today, who knows what will happen tomorrow? Enjoy yourself TODAY!

"When just men increase, the people shall rejoice: when the wicked shall bear rule, the people shall mourn."

Meaning: Is it just me? Or does this quote seem perfect for America after George Bush was re-elected? Think about the people of America during JFK- and the people of America now with Bush...Lotsa tears!

"Remove far from me vanity, and lying words. Give me neither beggary, nor riches: give me only the necessaries of life"

Meaning: The simple things in life are most important...The necessaries!


These are things we can relate to today. So i have to ask. What are peoples opinions on these Chapters of the Bible? You cant call these instructions "Evil" could you? When i read these quotes, each of them make perfect sense to me and work in perfect harmony to my mind, does it have the same effect to a non believer?

Bible critics, of which I am one, usually find little or no fault with the Old Testament except to point out that much of the content, such as you have quoted, have an earlier Sumerian source and cannot be attributed to any one individual as is claimed. The typical criticism centralizes in the New Testament and I feel confident in saying that 90 percent of all the studies fall in that area.

Personally I have no problem with Psalms or Proverbs. In fact I like to read those. The rest of it however.....

I just don't have much use for it.

Exactly Pslams and Proverbs are my favourite chapters of the Bible...Its honestly beautiful writing and so true to the heart and can be related to many people today. Thats why i feel that the Bible for Non Believers should be in these chapters as they are great books of wisdom and everyone can learn from it- believer or not.

I haven't seen many scoff at what is written in the Bible...What I see them scoff at is it being used as proof that there is a God. There is undoubtedly some wisdom in the words of the Bible, but it doesn't prove much of anything.

Very true.



Yeah, that's what I have a problem with. Yes, Psalms and Proverbs are good books. There is a lot in them. It's the rest of it, that some feel the need to shove down your throat that I have no use for. It doesn't prove much of anything to me. Except people back then (just like now) had some good imaginations.

While im here as i mentioned Proverbs and Psalms are surely my favourite chapters in the Bible...For the critics- do you have a least favourite? Or a really unlikeable chapter? Please dont say "All of it" as that was just shown as invalid. I know some people have some things against particular chapters. My least favourite is LEVITICUS. So whats your favourite and least favourite while we are at it- and why.

Leviticus does tick me off a bit. Outdated rules for modern society I guess. Gee it's been so long since I read it, I'll have to get back to you.

My only problem with the Bible is when it's claimed to be an accurate historical document.

I have problems with Judges where if a woman is raped in a city, it is her fault. If a woman is in "her time" she is dirty and cannot enter the house. Tons of senseless and sexist rules.

Huh? Last time i checked the Bible is a very accurate historical document. Its no proof of God exactly- which is fair enough. I understand skeptics getting annoyed by believers shoving the Bible down their throats saying its Gods word and the only way. Yet i thought you'd have known the Bible is a very accuarate historical book.

An example or 2:

A) Many scholars believed that Jersusalem was nothing but a tiny village with a few huts that bared no use in 10th century B.C- until it was recently shown that Jerusalem was infact a empire run very likely by King David.

Pool Of Siloam proves the hisotorical accuracy of the bible - its said to be the pool Jesus healed a blind man in- it was recently found. Again not proof that Jesus did that- but proof the pool is real and historically accurate.

Theres so much more i'd be rambling but the Bible is a great historical document- some historical happenings would be "unknown" if it wasnt for the event being mentioned in the bible.

I hear ya man, it doesnt sound like something God would genuinely approve on. I believe much of the Bible- but some of it is something i wouldnt associate with God at all- but corrupt man.

The main point of the Bible is that it is (per Christian belief) God's word. Here you are saying it is not proof of God?

Maybe Leviticus was a book "for its time" - but Psalms and Proverbs still relate to people today- and it seems many have brushed off the rules of Leviticus in time. These chapters are literally worlds away in their teachings!

No its not proof of God- especially to a skeptical mind. I'm saying the Bible in parts is an inspiring book especially in the Psalms and Proverb chapters. I believe in God and parts of the Bible to still be Gods word- i've claimed for a long time that some of it could have easily been corrupted by man...Hence i read it with caution. Your stance on this Zandore? Do you find Psalms and Proverbs oh so beautiful? You'd be kidding to say no But go ahead. Enlighten me. Also if you say theyre beautifully written, and i believe their Gods words does that mean you agree with my Gods teachings? See ? Jumping to conclusions is pointless.

I thought they still did - whilst there's evidence David may have existed, there's no evidence that I'm aware of that he ruled an empire of any shape or form?

Anyway, to be honest, it's mainly the Pentateuch I have problems with

Not any more so that other quotes from philosophers.


Yes "jumping to conclusions is pointless" and you just landed with both feet!

As I said they are just quotes from a philosopher that might have lived thousands of years ago.....kind of like Confucius
Are they God's teachings..... no just sayings from a wise man.

The whole David thing is a little sketchy at the moment but apprently theres proof of some kind of empire or at least a place of much more signifficance than a few huts in Jerusalem 10BC - i'll have to take another look at it.

As for the Pentateuch being problematic thats your opinion and fine by me.

Haha i was being sarcastic with the whole jumping to conclusions thing

As for them being quotes from a Philosopher who is to know? Yet i think God is a philosopher himself- even if this Philisopher was just a man- he may have been "God Inspired" of which we all are at times- and that is good enough for me. I feel that a poet or artist has God running through their veins and controlling their hands- for God is an artist too....See where im getting at? Everything is "God Inspired".

Why is it that 'Revelations' is so hard to understand one way - but so easy in another? I wasn't exactly 100% non-believer- but I am very close. If there is something that kept me going it is how people who wrote the bible way back all those years ago- how is it they think they know what it would be like today? I'm not being closed minded - but 'Revelations' was just always a way to close off my mind and still - how do I say it? - Pries it back open again.

how demeaning!

anyway, i am in agreement with zandore and iipac pretty much.

The way he meant it was as a compliment Hyper.

Not demeaning.

lets see, 101

it seems quite often followers of christianity say that if one does something "bad", that he/she is acting against god out of free will. however, if they do something "good", it is god acting through them.

pretty darn demeaning to me. I have to admit though that convincing somebody they are worth nothing without their "saviour" is a wonderful way to strip them of everything and make them good servants. The one thing christianity did indeed perfect; methods of domination and control.

Looked at it that way it is demeaning. I see why you would think that.

I think Christianity never makes one controlled. It does say we are nothing without jesus. But I don't think I am a Christian because I am nothing without him. I am still me. But with Jesus I am more. Just like some are more with their philosphies. For who would Hyper be if hyper did not have his thoughts and opinions. Still you. But you are now more. Only because you are closer to knowing your true self.

But you were the one doing the jumping!

True I suppose if you believe in a God.

Including evil!

This is a form of control!
Have you ever had someone try to pull a guilt trip on you?

Well I think that this is not the same as a guilt trip. It is ones own conviction. If you aren't Christian you are not convicted.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only son.....

Convicted (as in a crime) of what?

A chrsitian feels conviction of their sins.

I would feel bad when I have sex or killed someone or stole something.

Moreso then another person who thinks this is not sinful.

Please refer back to my post about a guilt trip.

Referring back does not do anything.

It only says to me that you feel I am made quilty by Jesus.

The fact is that killing without reason is wrong.

Do you feel killing is right? Or stealing? or raping?

This is sinful- sin is wrong- wrong is opposite from right- right is being good -good is being nice-

How is killing nice?

it seems to me like a misconception are you saying that because someone doesn't believe in god that they don't have the same morals? or they don't feel guilt?

i would not kill someone, not because it's a sin, but because it's wrong
there's right, there's grey, and there's wrong
i don't need some one to tell me what's right and what's wrong and what i should or shouldn't feel guilty for, i have my values just as much as any religious person...

as to the original post i agree with zandore just some really wise guy who made some good quotes...

101 the religion is a right and wrong construct correct?? How long are you required to feel bad???IMO guilt or shame are inventions of religion, The term sin has this connotation around it that is if done its horrible, things such as being gay, or being somethimng other than the particular religon demands etc etc... Let me ask you a question being a parent do you teach your daughter that mistakes are meant to be made thas how you learn ? really i don't think any behavior is inappropriate given ones model or example of the world around them. clearly one who grows up in poverty will have a different perspective than one who doesn't, I rarely would choose killing anything as an option to solving anything , nor feeling badly about having sex, the difference is the beleif structures we have chosen or ascribe too do you agree?? Namaste sheri

Little things a Christian feels wrong like sex with people before marriage or gay relations is wrong. To a person who is not Christian they are not convicted. This is what I am saying.

Sheri, As a child I did not do a lot of things other children do. I did not even try. It was wrong. I listened. As a teen I did some things. But then again I decided that those were indeed not right also. The way I learned thru my mistakes could have been bypassed if I listened to my mom and dad.

You think a child should always do soemthing to try it out.

Would you allow your son to be in a room at 12 and have relations with a female or male? At the young age of 12? This is something that should be monitored. Not allowed.

101 from my mistakes I learned to be informed often mistakes are lack of knowledge or understanding, I communicate to my kids on everything I can think of and them some, I don't shelter, but that doesn't mean they do whatevert they want , my kids peers aren't guiding them , they are playing and growing often play is a form of what they see the adults do or what they think the adults mean, the 12 year old question would not be transpiring at all, Its difficult to convey why across this site but it just wouldn't be. I at this point would want to excersice care in conveying a point it can easily be taken out of context and turn into a battle from lack of knowledge and awareness and experince. namaste sheri

fair enough.

But a child who is sheltered- as I was- is just as fine as others. It just takes a while to understand why you were sheltered. I don't mind by no means. I was a happy child.

I shelter my daughter but I also allow her to see real life situations.

I was sheltered I disagree with sheltering now age appropriate is another story also, I sheltered my oldest child and I find that it worked against him and me. I work dilegently on keeping myself opena nd willing to understand anothers perspective , i don't ascribe to the one size fits all constructs they don't nor should they.I'm more of the be a bridge not a wall construct. namaste Sheri

What is sheltered to you?

I was sheltered like this:


I did not see my parents fight ever.

I did not see them drink or do drugs as I remember

I did not see bad movies about violence or witchcraft.

I did not get to listen to any secular music except country once in a while

I wasn't allowed Coke except at restaurants. We would drink water or milk.

I wasn't allowed to go somewhere without a parent present.

I was 12 when I was left home alone.

I was not allowed to hear profanity or the derogatory.

[quote post='965980' date='Dec 7 2005, 02:34 PM' name='101']
What is sheltered to you?

I was sheltered like this:
I did not see my parents fight ever.

I did not see them drink or do drugs as I remember

I did not see bad movies about violence or witchcraft.

I did not get to listen to any secular music except country once in a while

I wasn't allowed Coke except at restaurants. We would drink water or milk.

I wasn't allowed to go somewhere without a parent present.

I was 12 when I was left home alone.

I was not allowed to hear profanity or the derogatory.


101 I would call that religous upbringing, , namaste sheri

To me it was sheltered. Perhaps it is religious upbringing. I know a lot of kids who were raised this way. And it seems normal.

My friends who were raised different complain that they were not loved enough or sheltered enough.

101 What is the signifigance of profanity??? Why the big deal about it its just words??

101 you smoke how did that come to be??

do you drink soda now??? How about alcohol?

Its ironic on the violence part, the bibile is the most violent of teachings?

i was exposed to all of the above i don't drink or smoke I'm a vegan i don't use profanity because i don't wish to present myself as stupid, I was exposed to religion many ones, i was encouraged to think for myself learn from my mistakes, I was raised by grandparents so that definitly made a difference, i was around fighting but i learned to resolve conflict and that a good marriage isn't one that is devoid of all problems but one that has its issues how else do you learn to work things out you have to see all sides of things, Religion teaches you to be scared and unworthy and sinful and everything is wrong,It causes more problems thatn it ever solves IMO. namaste Sheri

the paradox of christianity:

it feeds the ego with ideas like "christians are held to a higher standard", yet deprives the christian of independent self worth by associating everything positive with the "god" and not with the person hin/herself.

a man can be great, a man can say inspiring things, a man can solve problems. to everything a man can do. Give credit where credit is due. Man deserves credit for has actions, thoughts, inspirations. How bizzare to hand over credit to something that is a product of these very processes.

"At least two thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity, idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religious or political idols" : Aldous Huxley:

IIRC, if a woman is raped in a city and does not cry for help, then she would be punished along with the rapist. in an environment where help was very close by and death probably would have been preferrable to being raped and letting the guy get away, not crying for help would probably suggest that it wasnt rape.
yes, sure the purity laws seem senseless to you, but you arent an ancient Jew. and they were really into their purity laws.

Leviticus was a priest's manual. it should be read as such.

'Numbers' I'm afraid. What the hell is so important about a list of names?

Hi iaapac.

Could you provide specifics for me please? I recall a part in Judges where a woman is raped outside the house, and the people do say it was her own fault. BUT God condemns them for that act. So I can't think you're talking about that incident, yet I can't recall anywhere else where it happens.

Thanks mate

Regards, PA

Mmmm you know what i find especially amusing? Skeptics read these great, beautiful words from the Bible and say "Oh it must have been written by a wise man"- but when they read bad things in the Bible they immediately say "See what God does?! Gods evil!".
Why is it more believable that man wrote the good of the Bible and God did the bad of the Bible? You all say you seek a Good God- well these are good words apparently from God but they dont accept it- they say its the work of man. Yet the negative bits in the Bible people have no problem labelling it as Gods mean work.
I think Gods only as evil as you want him to be- for skeptics at least.

What I've noticed is that they'll post a passage of Jesus or Paul or someone to
support their argument, then when you post a passage to support yours, they'll tell you how unreliable the Bible is, somehow forgetting that they used the BIble one post ago to support theirs

I smoke because I wanted too. Maybe to rebel.

I drink soda and so does my parents - we didn't as kids though-

I don't drink alcohol- I don't like the effects.

Violence is only portrayed in the Bible when you are older and understand- It is different while a young child.

perhaps the answer you are looking for is that in order to sell somebody on something that is ultimately a deception designed to rob and control them, there has to be SOMETHING in there that actually gives the victim something! It is pretty basic stuff, for there has to be a hook.