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Something Like Laughter
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Dec 10 2005, 12:30 AM) [snapback]969435[/snapback]

let us get real about this. If you were going to reconstitute a nearly-dead religion, torn apart by strange schisms, in order to subjugate an empire, would you publish notes about it? "June 15, 351: subject of meeting: the book of Enoch. vote was 360 to 5 in favor of rejecting it." nop, you would cover your tracks.
wow, so now you've sunk to conspiracy theory.
no.gif
Nirwana
I'm not an atheist and I don't question God's word, but the bible may not be entirely "God's word", and there's some things on it that really cast doubt on ppl.
Paranoid Android
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Dec 10 2005, 05:30 PM) [snapback]969435[/snapback]

let us get real about this. If you were going to reconstitute a nearly-dead religion, torn apart by strange schisms, in order to subjugate an empire, would you publish notes about it? "June 15, 351: subject of meeting: the book of Enoch. vote was 360 to 5 in favor of rejecting it." nop, you would cover your tracks.


Not picking on you specifically Gid, just using your post as an example. In the absence of evidence how can any make the assumption that it was used. I think SLL is right. It's a conspiracy tongue.gif

Regards, PA
antiaging
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Dec 10 2005, 12:30 AM) [snapback]969435[/snapback]

let us get real about this. If you were going to reconstitute a nearly-dead religion, torn apart by strange schisms, in order to subjugate an empire, would you publish notes about it? "June 15, 351: subject of meeting: the book of Enoch. vote was 360 to 5 in favor of rejecting it." nop, you would cover your tracks.


The book of Enoch, and the rest of the apocryphal books, are not in the canon of the Jewish old Testament that is adopted by the Jews. The Jews don't include them.
They contain fiction stories that don't even look real and definite contraditctions.
manapa99
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Dec 10 2005, 02:44 AM) [snapback]969473[/snapback]

Not picking on you specifically Gid, just using your post as an example. In the absence of evidence how can any make the assumption that it was used. I think SLL is right. It's a conspiracy tongue.gif

Regards, PA

Gideon brings up some good points
Why wouldn't they change the bible to what they wanted?
A world at war all the time and the only people with the ability to read came from the church they had complete control of morals, they could have told people anything they wanted. And it's not like the church hasn't done as bad.
They use to sell salvation; if you had gold you could buy your way in to heaven
They used monks to make them money, and if they didn't like something that someone did they would threaten them with making them go to hell, including world leaders who because of being excommunicated by the church lost the favor of their people and then in turn had to go out of their way to try and appease the church.
The catholic church was a business, plain and simple, there's no one to look over their shoulder, especially around the council’s time they could do what ever they wanted and they did do what ever they wanted plain and simple.
Everyone always talked about the "mistakes" the catholic church ahs made in it's past, well the bible was one of them thumbsup.gif
Something Like Laughter
QUOTE
Gideon brings up some good points
no he doesnt. all he has is pure speculation.
QUOTE
Why wouldn't they change the bible to what they wanted?
the bishops probably would have found themselves joining Arius in his exile.
QUOTE
A world at war all the time and the only people with the ability to read came from the church
i highly doubt that the only people who could read came from the church. the roman empire was starting to pull itself together for a bit. im sure their educational system was fully operational.
QUOTE
They use to sell salvation; if you had gold you could buy your way in to heaven
They used monks to make them money, and if they didn't like something that someone did they would threaten them with making them go to hell, including world leaders who because of being excommunicated by the church lost the favor of their people and then in turn had to go out of their way to try and appease the church.
the church of the fourth century is not the roman catholic church of the renaissance.
QUOTE
The catholic church was a business, plain and simple, there's no one to look over their shoulder, especially around the council’s time they could do what ever they wanted and they did do what ever they wanted plain and simple.
i am guessing you are talking about the roman catholic church. there were people to look over its shoulder, the eastern churches. which at nicea, eastern bishops vastly outnumbered those from the west.

but still, you have nothing concrete, just speculation. certainly the some church council could have drastically changed what books were in the NT, but it is not in the historical record, anywhere.
hyperactive
SLL, are you going for laughter? (sarcasm)

who is it what writes history? who is it that controls the past?
iaapac
QUOTE(Something Like Laughter @ Dec 10 2005, 04:02 AM) [snapback]969439[/snapback]

wow, so now you've sunk to conspiracy theory.
no.gif




That's unfair. Gideon has a valid point. You well know that there was severe friction between the eastern Churches and the rest of the budding Catholic kingdom. Eusebius clearly mentions that "not all" the bishops were invited which illustrates this separation that finally concluded with a bishop being placed in exile. So it is not a far-fetched idea that the work of the council may have been secreted from the eastern factions.
Nadal
The reason I'm an Atheist is because there's probably NO religion that has it 100% correct. Like say you were born in America, Catholic. How about those in, let's say, Iraqi. You were born Muslim and THAT's your belief, and all other's are completely wrong. The same goes with Chrisitians. What makes you think your religion is right? All religious people base their religious beliefs on blind faith. What happens if a christian dies and meets Islam or a Muslim dies and meets Jesus? Think about that? Eh, no?
iaapac
QUOTE(Something Like Laughter @ Dec 10 2005, 03:49 AM) [snapback]969426[/snapback]

uhh, what? Lent and the timing of regular provincal synods has nothing to do with what books are included. you had better explain yourself better. right now you are not making any sense.
Jerome says that the bishops attending the council had some idea as to what could be considered canonical, which wouldnt wouldnt be surprising considering how most if not all of the scholarship on the subject says the canon developed.




Your earlier post said that the council had nothing to do with the development of New Testament canon. I am merely indicating that the topic was not avoided and New Testament concepts entered the discussions. The truth is that nothing was recorded of the council for whatever reason and we can debate this the rest of our lives but the final fact will be that there are no experts on the subject . . . . only varying degrees of ignorance.
Something Like Laughter
QUOTE
That's unfair. Gideon has a valid point.
its perfectly fair. he is copping out on providing historical evidence by saying it was done in secret or that they wouldnt have taken notes of it.
QUOTE
Eusebius clearly mentions that "not all" the bishops were invited
uhh, no.
from: Eusebius, Vita Constantini, Book III, ch.6. emphasis mine.
QUOTE
Then as if to bring a divine array against this enemy, he convoked a general council, and invited the speedy attendance of bishops from all quarters, in letters expressive of the honorable estimation in which he held them.

QUOTE
which illustrates this separation that finally concluded with a bishop being placed in exile.
uh, the Arian controversy had nothing to do with anything between the eastern and western churches.
QUOTE
So it is not a far-fetched idea that the work of the council may have been secreted from the eastern factions.
um, yeah it is. there were 5 bishops in attendance from the western church and around 300 from the eastern.

do me a favor and learn something about the first council of nicaea. what you are posting now is pretty much just gibberish.

QUOTE
The truth is that nothing was recorded of the council for whatever reason and we can debate this the rest of our lives but the final fact will be that there are no experts on the subject . . . . only varying degrees of ignorance.
wrong again. there is quite a lot concerning this council.
try:
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-03/Npnf...tm#P1098_224595
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-02/Npnf....htm#P258_77081
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-02/Npnf...m#P3125_1277828
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf...m#P7561_3137029
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/rufinus_he.html
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Something Like Laughter @ Dec 10 2005, 07:56 PM) [snapback]970430[/snapback]

do me a favor and learn something about the first council of nicaea. what you are posting now is pretty much just gibberish.

do the rest of us a favor and learn something about the monster "Theodosius the Great" i find it so odd that you never respond about him. he convened the council of constantinople. are you even familiar with him, o so-called scholarly one?

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/the...t-ambrose1.html

http://www.roman-empire.net/collapse/theodosius-I.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodosius_I

http://www.roman-emperors.org/theo1.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14577d.htm

http://www.livius.org/th/theodosius/theodosius.html

http://www.thenagain.info/WebChron/Mediter...Theodosius.html

read all the above and comment. I want to know what you think of the establishment of nicean xianity and what they did to the opposition, pagan and xian both. i want an answer.
Something Like Laughter
perhaps later when it isnt the biggest red herring ever.
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Something Like Laughter @ Dec 10 2005, 08:29 PM) [snapback]970444[/snapback]

perhaps later when it isnt the biggest red herring ever.

i knew in advance you would show the typical xian cowardice and not comment on theodosius. the man, along with his bishop buddies, reinvented xianity, with the sole puropse of consolidating the roman empire, which re-dissolved on his death. the damage was already done, the library at alexandria burnt to the ground, and the dark ages had begun, as the lie of christianity, specifically the "nicean" brand, with its divine "son" had already been spread over the roman empire, by fire and sword. have yo9u ever even once considered that, maybe, just maybe, the jews might be right, proven by their survival under almost 2000 years of xian pewrsecution. ever once think about that? not theodoseus, not hitler, not the inquisition. you guys just try and try to kill off or force conversion of the jews. maybe God really is that powerful?
Something Like Laughter
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/redherrf.html
you are starting to sound like somone who knows they've lost and are afraid to admit it.
and with that, my discussion with you over the first council of nicaea is over.
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Something Like Laughter @ Dec 10 2005, 09:11 PM) [snapback]970467[/snapback]

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/redherrf.html
you are starting to sound like somone who knows they've lost and are afraid to admit it.
and with that, my discussion with you over the first council of nicaea is over.

i have been posting about the council of constantinop0le and theodosius. You are the red herring. you have lost, and can't refute my arguments. Since Theodosius, the first great Xian persecutor, the jews are still here. you refused to respond to that because you don't have an answer. the continued persistence of the jewish people is the greatest embarassment to xians. I even hear them claim that "most jews today accept Jesus as a prophet". why don't you pull that one out? admit defeat like an adult. you can't explain away why the jews still refuse your poison and have escaped your terror in the name of the "lamb". the main simbol of the xian religion is still a roman symbol of torture. Isn't it obvious why?
hyperactive
it is good to have you here, gideon. very good indeed. thumbsup.gif

gee... what are "men of god"? well, they are MEN! We are supposed to believe that these men were somehow different than all other men in similar positions throughout history? How hilarious!

It is amazing how blind an eye will be turned in defense of a position. The following Sagan quote fits all too well:

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous."

w00t.gif w00t.gif w00t.gif
Paranoid Android
SLL - thanks thumbsup.gif You saved me a lot of typing.

GM - If you really believe what you post, then why are you not following the Torah? If the Jews are right, why are you an occultist. Or do you believe being born Jewish is enough.

Hyper - Are you trying to prove our side of the argument now? Men are men, whether claiming to be men of God or not. It is those that commit evil in God's name that should be condemned, not the God itself.

Just a few thoughts.

Regards, PA
hyperactive
remember i view your god (all gods) as products of the human brain and nothing more. what is "real" is the men that create and subscribe to these ideas. In that sense, we do measure a god by its men, for it is only the men that are/were real! happy.gif
Paranoid Android
Thanks hyper, good explanation thumbsup.gif
Turtle
QUOTE(hyperactive @ Dec 11 2005, 01:33 AM) [snapback]970676[/snapback]

remember i view your god (all gods) as products of the human brain and nothing more. what is "real" is the men that create and subscribe to these ideas. In that sense, we do measure a god by its men, for it is only the men that are/were real! happy.gif


I think they are products of the human ego, which is the primary brain function and mans need to be at the center.
I also believe that when you strip aside your ego, you see a bigger picture of a higher consciousness, which is connected to the brain, and can be accessed by seeing past your ego.
Religion is rooted in ego, for that we agree.
iaapac
QUOTE(Something Like Laughter @ Dec 10 2005, 10:26 PM) [snapback]970430[/snapback]

its perfectly fair. he is copping out on providing historical evidence by saying it was done in secret or that they wouldnt have taken notes of it.
uhh, no.
from: Eusebius, Vita Constantini, Book III, ch.6. emphasis mine.

uh, the Arian controversy had nothing to do with anything between the eastern and western churches.
um, yeah it is. there were 5 bishops in attendance from the western church and around 300 from the eastern.

do me a favor and learn something about the first council of nicaea. what you are posting now is pretty much just gibberish.

wrong again. there is quite a lot concerning this council.
try:
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-03/Npnf...tm#P1098_224595
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-02/Npnf....htm#P258_77081
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-02/Npnf...m#P3125_1277828
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf...m#P7561_3137029
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/rufinus_he.html




It might be interesting to really debate this issue if for no other reason that to show that your one dimension knowledge of the topic is a bit more than fragile. With your attitude, however, it doesn't appear to be worth it. And please don't show your typical arrogance and assume that my posture is because I cannot refute your comments, it is rather that you do not appear to be the type of person capable of a reasonable or intellectual exchange.

Your type of responses represents the real weakness of UM, that serious people wanting to share for the good of all need to be afflicted with caustic and insulting statements.
Paranoid Android
^^^perhaps you should PM Lottie or Aztec, suggest a debate topic between yourself and SLL. I'd like to see that thumbsup.gif

Regards, PA
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Dec 11 2005, 01:29 AM) [snapback]970672[/snapback]

SLL - thanks thumbsup.gif You saved me a lot of typing.
GM - If you really believe what you post, then why are you not following the Torah? If the Jews are right, why are you an occultist. Or do you believe being born Jewish is enough.
Regards, PA

The continued existence of the jews simply proves that xianity is not correct. you are jumping to conclusions. I could have made the same statement about the pagans, instead of the jews, and it would have been equally correct.let's restate that, misquoting me.

QUOTE
the continued persistence of the pagan people great embarassment to xians.


following your logic, I should be a pagan, also, or any other religion they have tried to supress. Following you, I should logically follow any religion that xianity has attempted to irradicate should be preferable to following xianity itself. actually, not a bad idea: stir clear of xianity and go to any opponent whose continued persistent existence proves that xianity is a lie!. cool. I can accept that, and pretty much, that is how i live. All religions have a kernel of truth. I find, for example, that Mohammed didn't really travel to the moon, but maybe it's a symbol. I have rarely studied Islam, so the jury is out on that one, unless it meant the astral plane, symbolically. The only way I would even accept xianity would be first to become an observant Jew. I would then take the virgin birth, and Yeshu's entire life, and examine what each aspect of that life means on a symbolic level. I will run with this. Brace yourselves.

Is the virgin birth a remnant of a ritual initiation? probably. This may be why they adapted the "mikvah", the ritual bath. you take the mikvah (immersion in water or baptism), and make it a symbol of your new birth in the holy spirit. did you get that? the only way to follow Yeshu begins with the baptism, the new "birth" into a pure life. Has anyone ever noticed "jesus must be sacrificed in your heart"? You must become Yeshu to follow him. None of this would require me to even believe that Yeshu was a real person. God would back me up. "believe on my works" OMG, did he say that. both the tibetan or Egyptian "books of the dead" are excellent guides to this.Just like the book of revelations explains very carefully in initiate's language how to open your chakras one by one. at the end of the book the "bride" comes to meet the "bridegroom", which means the kundalini has risen to the top of the skull, and all of the chakras (seals) are open. the tibetan buddhists say "in samsara we are already in nurvana, we just can't see it".
Paranoid Android
Interesting hypothesis Gid, to which I can only say we have a difference of opinion. The perserverence of different religions is no proof that CHristianity is wrong, nor is it proof that the other's are right.

The only thing I find embarassing about the whole situation is that at various stages throughout history, various selfish and ungodly men (and sometimes women) have misused the Word of God to promote their selfish desires, often through violence. And that only a little because I know they are nothing like me nor my faith nor my God.

Regards, PA
Something Like Laughter
QUOTE
It might be interesting to really debate this issue
nah, it would be very boring.
QUOTE
if for no other reason that to show that your one dimension knowledge of the topic is a bit more than fragile.
please go ahead. but if you do, try and stick with the historical record. no more of stuff like this:
QUOTE
Eusebius clearly mentions that "not all" the bishops were invited
when in fact Eusebius says the exact opposite.

your knowledge of the council of nicaea seems rudimentry at best. you dont seem to know the core issue, who was in attendance, what was discussed or who records all of this.
PLO
which one?, there was two, 325AD and 780 something, but with the creation of the Nicene creed that states the father the son are the same, but with their beleife in the trinity i can hardly see how this is so and looks pretty flawed to be honest and u still get the athanasian creed which ios even widely used today as a more overt attack on Arianism.

It only prevaild becuase at the end of the day its supporters were more influencial and well connected, more t do with politics in all honesty not fundamental beliefe.
Something Like Laughter
we are talking about the first one.
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Something Like Laughter @ Dec 11 2005, 10:49 AM) [snapback]970931[/snapback]

we are talking about the first one.

because you are afraid to discuss the council of constantinople and theodosius.
PLO
what, all five of them? but why do u suppose the Roman Catholics rejected the other 3 canons accepted by Eastern Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches
butitorp
im a christian but not totally. with whats happening right now, all i trust is God and me.what i mean is that with the church leaders and all the suspicions..well i dont wanna argue. just believe in someone up there that believes in you too
Something Like Laughter
QUOTE(PLO @ Dec 11 2005, 10:19 AM) [snapback]970959[/snapback]

what, all five of them? but why do u suppose the Roman Catholics rejected the other 3 canons accepted by Eastern Orthodox Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches
what are you talking about? you can use the quote function to show what you are replying to. it would help me a lot.
PLO
generaly as a rule of thumb i dont quote from the post directly above me, but gideon mentiond the council of constantinople of which there was 5, as for the rest about canons, read about it eh and answer me GODAMNIT AAAAAAAARGH, lol.
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(PLO @ Dec 11 2005, 11:52 AM) [snapback]970989[/snapback]

generaly as a rule of thumb i dont quote from the post directly above me, but gideon mentiond the council of constantinople of which there was 5, as for the rest about canons, read about it eh and answer me GODAMNIT AAAAAAAARGH, lol.

the first one is the one coonvened by theodosius, to ensure that the newly reunited empire would last forever. it didn't. He burned all the pagan temples (including occupants, if any), burned the library, stopped the olympic games, instituted xianity as the state religionand generally, began the dark ages.
iaapac
um, yeah it is. there were 5 bishops in attendance from the western church and around 300 from the eastern.

. That is true, providing that you accept the account of St. Athanasius, a member of the council who numbered 300 in attendance in one writing and then changed it to 318 in a later work. Eusebius speaks of “more than 250 bishops,” and later Arabic manuscripts raise the figure to 2000 but they obviously included the entire entourage of each bishop. The subject has been long debated since the signers of the creed developed at the council numbered only 220 and 218 names. “With information derived from one source or another, a list of 232 or 237 fathers known to have been present may be constructed.” H. Gelzer, H. Hilgenfeld, and O. Contz

This is my reference to one-dimensional since your position is based upon one report and while there was a time when Athanasius was widely accepted, there is now more doubt cast upon his report. To truly address the question, one must examine all the reports and make a personal but educated judgment.

“It is impossible to know how many bishops attended the ecumenical council called by Constantine since existing records are in conflict and the fact that Aristidius reports that the bishops in direct communication with the emperor refused to invite bishops from areas where there had been reports of heresies.” J.B. Cline, Ebert Sutter, DTA, No. 1094, Cambridge University.

In fact, there is no report indicating that five bishops were in attendance from the “western church.” The statement was that there were five bishops from latin-speaking regions. “The Latin-speaking provinces sent at least five representatives: Marcus of Calabria from Italy, Cecilian of Carthage from Africa, Hosius of Córdoba from Hispania, Nicasius of Dijon from Gaul, and Domnus of Stridon from the province of the Danube." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council...icaea#Attendees

Just as an example, there was a bishop at Syracuse where Latin was not spoken even in church rituals and there is no reason to believe that he was not in attendance at Nicaea.

It is, in fact, an error to refer to the “western church” and an equal error to mention the “Eastern Church.” No such references were made in those days except when speaking of the Arian-adherent-churches that were being viewed as heretical. It should be known that when one refers to the “Eastern Church” in reference to the times of the Council of Nicaea, it is not referring to the “churches in the East.” If that were true, you would be correct in saying that the majority of the bishops were from the East . . . . but not the Eastern Church. As Ursacius clearly states, the “Eastern Church” rested within the grasp of the followers of Arias and would probably have refused the invitation if it had been given. Eusebius himself (Eusebius of Nicomedia) was a supporter of Arias and it is commonly believed that he attended as a spokesman for all those within the Eastern Church. Dr. Maurice Cross scolded the Schools of Religion within universities at the Maldane Conference in Bern for texts referring to the “Eastern Church” and their failure to teach the correct form of references that truly divided Eastern and Western churches. Soochow University Conference Report, Feb. 2002.

of course, the council of nicea had nothing to do with the NT canon. check out the first link i posted ( http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/nicaea.html ). you should be able to properly appreciate it.

Roger Pearse's study of this issue is quite correct when he concludes:

"...there appears no evidence that the council of Nicaea made any pronouncements on which books go in the Bible, or about the destruction of heretical writings, or reincarnation. However it did condemn Arius and his teachings, and the Emperor Constantine did take the usual Late Roman steps to ensure conformity afterwards..."
What he does not mention, however, was the functional policies of the early church. It was Minucius Felix, alter all, who claimed that Latin should be the official language of the church even though the majority of its members did not speak or understand the tongue because, “The light of truth would be too bright for minds that have been so long dimmed.” It is historically obvious that the church did not publish the content or procedures of its meetings and thus should not be surprising that the agenda of the Council of Nicaea remains somewhat unknown. The church did not feel obligated to inform anyone outside of its hierarchy of its functions and simply never did so.

It is not entirely unknown, however, since some independent writings exist even though their authors remain unknown:

"By the fourth century it became necessary for the Church to decide which of the many Gospels then in circulation were to be accepted as authentic. The question came up in the Council of Nicea. Fortunately the testimonies of two eye-witnesses have been preserved, so there can be little doubt as to the method used in the selection of the Gospels. There were 318 Bishops present in this Council, and one of the two eye-witnesses, Sabinus, Bishop of Heraclea, left a description of their mental capacities. "With the exception of the Emperor (Constantine)" he said, "and Eusebius Pamphilus, these Bishops were a set of illiterate, simple creatures who understood nothing." About forty Gospels were submitted to these Bishops. As they differed widely in their contents, the decision was difficult. At last it was determined to resort to "miraculous intervention." The method used was known as the Sortes Sanctorum, or "the holy casting of lots for purposes of divination." Its use in the Council of Nicea was described by another eye-witness, Pappus, in his Synodicon to that Council. He says:

"Having promiscuously put all the books referred to the Council for determination under a communion table in a church, they (the Bishops) besought the Lord that the inspired writings might get upon the table, while the spurious ones remained underneath. And it happened accordingly."

"When the Bishops returned to the Council room on the following morning, the four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were resting on the communion table. Their presence in the New Testament is due to the art of divination, for practicing which the Church subsequently condemned men and women as sorcerers, enchanters and witches, and burned them by the thousands."

The author may well have been one Sabinus since Socrates Scholasticus wrote, "Sabinus, however, the chief of the heresy of the Macedonians, willfully rejects these authorities, and calls those who were convened there ignorant and illiterate persons . . . . “

What does become apparent, however, is that in spite of the absence of official church records, there were (and are) references to the council dealing with New Testament canon being part of the Council of Nicaea agenda. Other writings reveal a dispute over the inclusion of the Book of John as reported by Clarence Vinton of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem Hierarchies and Heresies, pp 314-322. Kings Cross Press.. “The Life of Constantine,” in its third book, contains the reference by Eusebius that not all bishops were invited but it is obvious in that reference that he was referring to the Eastern Church or the Arians with whom he had sided and by some reports, represented at Nicaea..
Something Like Laughter
keep reading through the footnotes of Roger Pearse's article, specifically notes B and E. some things should start to look familiar.

full response maybe later. ive got a lot of homework to do.
flyinghigh23
In answering the original question to this thread:


First of all, I look at the Bible this way now after having once been a Christian for all of my childhood and young adulthood: A book that was written by men who had an agenda to control and deceive humanity. Why do I say this? Well, first of all, think about Jesus for a minute. Here's this "Son of God" who supposedely came down from heaven to show people how to live and follow God. Prophecies of his being born were told to us. Okay, where are the accounts of his childhood?? You can't tell me that he wasn't followed very closely through out his early life. Because we are asked to follow blindly, then to quesiton this is wrong, but excuse me?? We're asked to believe in this when we don't even know his history? You can't tell me that there was nothing written about him under the age of 30 when he was involved in his teachings.

It seems funny to me, if you look at the Apocrypha, there is the book of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas that gives an account of Jesus actually killing people when he was a child. It makes sense to me that this was not included in the Bible, because then the Church would have a big problem: No one would believe that Jesus was God in human form if they knew he had killed. I'm going to quote from "The Other Bible" concerning the book of Thomas, which includes apocryphal writings. pg.399

" When this child Jesus was five years old, he was playing at the ford of a stream. He made pools of the rushing water and made it immediately pure; he ordered this by word alone. He made soft clay and modeled twelve sparrows from it. It was the Sabbath when he did this. There were many other children playing with him. A certain Jew saw what Jesus did while playing on the Sabbath; he immediately went and announced to his father Joseph, "See, your child is at the stream, and has taken clay and modeled twelve birds; he has profaned the Sabbath."

Joseph came to the place, and seeing what Jesus did he cried out, "Why do you do on the Sabbath what is not lawful to do?" Jesus clapped his hands and cried to the sparrows, "Be gone." And the sparrows flew off chirping. The Jews saw this and were amazed. They went away and descirbed to their leaders what they had seen Jesus do.

The son of Annas the scribe was standing there with Joseph. He took a branch of a willow and scattered the water which Jesus had arranged. Jesus saw what he did and became angry and said to him, "You unrighteous, impious ignoramus, what did the pools and the water do to harm you? Behold, you shall not bear leaves nor roots nor fruit." And immediately that child was all withered. Jesus left and went to the house of Joseph. The parents of the withered one bore him away, bemoaning his lost youth. They led him to Joseph and reproached him, "What kind of child do you have who does such things?"

Once again he was going through the village, and a child who was running banged his shoulder. Jesus was angered and said to him, "You shall go no further on your way." And immediately the child fell down dead. Some people saw this happen and said, "From whence was this child begotten, for his every word is an act accomplished?" The parents of the dead boy went to Joseph and blamed him: "Because you have such a boy, you cannot live with us in the village; your alternative is to teach him to bless and not to curse, for he is killing our children."

End of quoting the Infant Gospel of Thomas.

Even though this account is pretty much disregared by most because the Church deemed it as a false writing, I have wondered if it isn't true, why else completely hide ALL of any accounts about Jesus' childhood?? People talk about the Bible being so historically accurate, well, isn't Jesus' life history probably one of the most important and curious accounts missing??


I could go on and on about the other reasons for why I question the Bible, but this is a biggie.

I do not question God, but I do question men's interpretation of God, and that is purely what I think the Bible is made of.

Fly
Something Like Laughter
QUOTE
Even though this account is pretty much disregared by most because the Church deemed it as a false writing, I have wondered if it isn't true, why else completely hide ALL of any accounts about Jesus' childhood?? People talk about the Bible being so historically accurate, well, isn't Jesus' life history probably one of the most important and curious accounts missing??
No one was interested in people's childhoods during this time period. read some of the biographies of the roman emperors. at most they will have one or two anecdotes from their childhood, then it moves on.
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Something Like Laughter @ Dec 11 2005, 05:43 PM) [snapback]971282[/snapback]

No one was interested in people's childhoods during this time period. read some of the biographies of the roman emperors. at most they will have one or two anecdotes from their childhood, then it moves on.

well the writer of the gospel of thomas certainly seemed concerned.
Something Like Laughter
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Dec 11 2005, 05:28 PM) [snapback]971327[/snapback]

well the writer of the gospel of thomas certainly seemed concerned.

then he was the exception rather than the rule.
hyperactive
yet, when one looks at as many sources as possible in trying to find the answer it is those "anomolies" that can be most revealling.
flyinghigh23
QUOTE(Something Like Laughter @ Dec 11 2005, 10:43 PM) [snapback]971282[/snapback]

No one was interested in people's childhoods during this time period. read some of the biographies of the roman emperors. at most they will have one or two anecdotes from their childhood, then it moves on.


Yes, that may be true, but there's a big difference between emperors and the Son of God. My point is, if people are told to believe in Jesus being the literal human incarnation of God, then his history should be intact, because it WOULD and SHOULD be interesting to people of the time and of all time periods. The fact that it is missing is highly suspicious, and that is something people are told not to question.

Fly
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(flyinghigh23 @ Dec 11 2005, 08:29 PM) [snapback]971449[/snapback]

Yes, that may be true, but there's a big difference between emperors and the Son of God. My point is, if people are told to believe in Jesus being the literal human incarnation of God, then his history should be intact, because it WOULD and SHOULD be interesting to people of the time and of all time periods. The fact that it is missing is highly suspicious, and that is something people are told not to question.

Fly

please note that something like laughter has never read plutarch's "lives", or anything by homer.
Magikman
Let's endeavor to keep the discussion on topic, please. Start another thread if you must argue other points that have nothing to do with the original premise.

MM
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Magikman @ Dec 11 2005, 10:15 PM) [snapback]971570[/snapback]

Let's endeavor to keep the discussion on topic, please. Start another thread if you must argue other points that have nothing to do with the original premise.

MM

i am referring to contemporary writings that speak of childhood adventures of their characters.which puts in action the premise that the nt is not to be trusted because they omit jesus's childhood. it questions the gospels, which are part of the bible.
Paranoid Android
QUOTE(flyinghigh23 @ Dec 12 2005, 12:29 PM) [snapback]971449[/snapback]

Yes, that may be true, but there's a big difference between emperors and the Son of God. My point is, if people are told to believe in Jesus being the literal human incarnation of God, then his history should be intact, because it WOULD and SHOULD be interesting to people of the time and of all time periods. The fact that it is missing is highly suspicious, and that is something people are told not to question.

Fly


Also remember that only a then small subsection of the people actually believed Jesus to be the Son of God. Why would hisotrians write pages and pages of childhood anecdotes for what, to them, was essentially a no-name criminal who was tried, sentenced and killed without ever seeming to do anythin with lasting value.

Regards, PA
GIDEON MAGE
what historians? they were debating the gospels.
flyinghigh23
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Dec 12 2005, 04:24 AM) [snapback]971659[/snapback]

Also remember that only a then small subsection of the people actually believed Jesus to be the Son of God. Why would hisotrians write pages and pages of childhood anecdotes for what, to them, was essentially a no-name criminal who was tried, sentenced and killed without ever seeming to do anythin with lasting value.

Regards, PA


Quite a good point, but I was trying to say that since it was actually prophesized that the Son of God was supposed to be born, then naturally one might assume that his whole life would be followed thereafter, to either prove or disprove what/who he was claimed to be.
flyinghigh23
QUOTE(Magikman @ Dec 12 2005, 03:15 AM) [snapback]971570[/snapback]

Let's endeavor to keep the discussion on topic, please. Start another thread if you must argue other points that have nothing to do with the original premise.

MM


This is absolutely on topic in my opinion: The original poster asked why we question the Bible, and well, I wrote that I questioned it because the whole story on Jesus is not included, and I basically insinuated that not everything should be followed blindly with out questioning, and that includes the Bible.
Yelekiah
QUOTE(101 @ Dec 8 2005, 02:50 PM) [snapback]967413[/snapback]

Why in the world do you question God's word?

"God's word" is text written by man. Things have been removed from this text. Things have been added. Not only has it been translated numerous times (including from Hebrew to Greek to various forms of English), but there are also known mistranslations. For example, Moses parting the Red Sea (which is really the Reed Sea). This is something I questioned later in life. But when I was six I was already in the middle of questioning Islam and Buddhism. I knew they couldn't all be the right paths.
QUOTE
Did someone make you think you were wrong in your beliefs that made you question the Bible and it's validity?

Me.
QUOTE
I never questioned whether it was God's word. I was told you can question but you are supposed to have faith. That when you really read it and know why it is written the way it is then you will uderstand.

Well there are people that tell you not to question it. But in my opinion, human nature dictates that we do the opposite of what we are told at times (at least internally) because of our curiosity.
QUOTE
Why did you question and what were your answers?

I question because I think it's a sign of progression. You cannot grow if you just accept everything you read.
My answer was that the Bible is a pastiche of pagan inspiration. Plagiarsm really. Once again, just an opinion.
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