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hyperactive
QUOTE
From: Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith 52 (March 2000): 31-46.

In this paper, I try to apply the findings of modern geology to Gen. 2:10-14. I deduce from the evidence that the four rivers of Eden--the Pishon, the Gihon, the Hiddekel, and the Euphrates--were real rivers which existed on a modern landscape before Noah's flood. The now-dry Wadi al Batin was probably the Pishon River, the Gihon was probably the Karun River, and the Hiddekel (Tigris) and Euphrates Rivers flowed in approximately the same courses as they occupy today. The confluence of these four rivers was located at the head of the Persian Gulf, but a Gulf that may have been inland from where it is today. The spring which "rises up" in Eden could have been supplied by the Dammam Formation, the principal aquifer of the region. Oil-drilling in southern Iraq confirms that six miles of sedimentary rock exist below the biblical site for the Garden of Eden. This same sedimentary rock is the source of bitumen at Hit, a site which may have supplied Noah with pitch for constructing the ark. The question is asked: How could pre-flood Eden have been located over six miles of sedimentary rock supposedly formed during Noah's flood?

While the secular world almost universally assumes that the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden is legend, many evangelical Christians believe it to be a true story--that Adam and Eve were historical people and that the Garden of Eden was a historical place. One reason for this belief is because the Bible gives its geographic location: two of the names of the four rivers mentioned in Gen. 2:10-14 have been preserved from biblical times. According to the Bible, the Garden of Eden was located somewhere in southern Iraq where the Euphrates and Hiddekel (Tigris) Rivers flowed into the head of the Persian Gulf--that is, they flowed on a modern landscape that is still recognizable today.

What most Christians do not realize is that this biblical identification of Eden on a modern landscape is in direct conflict with Flood Geology, a premise promoted by Creation Science. The basic tenet of Flood Geology is that all (or almost all) of the sedimentary rock on the planet earth was formed during Noah's flood. But modern geologic study has shown (by oil drilling) that the landscape of southern Iraq is underlain by six miles of sedimentary rock. Thus the question can be asked: How could the Garden of Eden, which existed on a pre-flood landscape existing before the flood, have been located over six miles of sedimentary rock created during the flood?

entire article
Yelekiah
I like the last paragraph. I hope no one argues that Eden wasn't a "part" of the world, like it was a sacred place by God, therefore it couldn't flood. That would be pretty ridiculous.
GIDEON MAGE
since the flood legends are vague memories of the flooding that followed the end of the last ice age, about 10,000 years ago, there is no telling where the garden might have been. the whole adam and eve story is obviously eponymic, anyway, telling of the meeting of the two ancient tribes, the Adom (the red earth people) and the Chava (people of life), there is no way to trace the origins of anything like this.
Ashley-Star*Child
Eden is not on Earth, but another planet. Go read Raziel or something. rolleyes.gif
Paranoid Android
Presuming for a moment that the Genesis story is all true, then Eden is in a place where man cannot reach. He was cast out, and made so as he (and she) could never return. i don't know if that constitutes not being a part of the world yele, but that's one interpretation.

Another theory, my favoured one, is that this is not a literal historic fact.

THis happened how many years ago though????? How does this affect me today? Does it really matter whether it is allegorical or whether it is fact? A resounding no is my answer....

Just a thought.

Regards, PA
67thbook
Archaeology is a relatvely new science, which when it comes to the middle east, finds most arhaeologists, at least those prior to the last 20 years, trying to prove their findings according to Biblical reference. A site is uncovered and and so it must be so and so as per book so and so.

It is still mostly presumed by the masses that creation or at the very least the first societies started in Iraq. The archaeological finds in Egypt, specifically Nabta Playa disproves this.

The premise originates from the Genesis verse which has abraham hailing from Ur of the Chaldees. An impossible notion for Moses to write about given that the Chaldean empire did not consume Ur, Iraq until many centuries in the future. However, Egyptian text preating Moses speaks to Ra and the legend of Horus the winged disc defeating their enemies while traversing the territority in their barge which was named---Ur.

Another little known piece of information is that Babylon was the name given to old Cairo long before the Babylon of Iraq. As well, if one were to read the histories of as well as the archaeological findings of the Mediterranean shoreline, it would be noted that dry land of several thousand years ago is now submerged under water.


Edited to add:

There are countless tales by peoples all over the world who tell of a flood. If Genesis is to believed then we must ask ourseles why it is that when only 8 people survived same, peoples oceans apart have their varying flood myths?
Bluefinger
QUOTE(67thbook @ Dec 18 2005, 11:18 PM) [snapback]982108[/snapback]

Archaeology is a relatvely new science, which when it comes to the middle east, finds most arhaeologists, at least those prior to the last 20 years, trying to prove their findings according to Biblical reference. A site is uncovered and and so it must be so and so as per book so and so.

It is still mostly presumed by the masses that creation or at the very least the first societies started in Iraq. The archaeological finds in Egypt, specifically Nabta Playa disproves this.

The premise originates from the Genesis verse which has abraham hailing from Ur of the Chaldees. An impossible notion for Moses to write about given that the Chaldean empire did not consume Ur, Iraq until many centuries in the future. However, Egyptian text preating Moses speaks to Ra and the legend of Horus the winged disc defeating their enemies while traversing the territority in their barge which was named---Ur.

Another little known piece of information is that Babylon was the name given to old Cairo long before the Babylon of Iraq. As well, if one were to read the histories of as well as the archaeological findings of the Mediterranean shoreline, it would be noted that dry land of several thousand years ago is now submerged under water.
Edited to add:

There are countless tales by peoples all over the world who tell of a flood. If Genesis is to believed then we must ask ourseles why it is that when only 8 people survived same, peoples oceans apart have their varying flood myths?



As a response to your edit at the end of your post, I do believe the chain game was played here. Noah survives, and his sons scatter across the world speaking in different languages, calling God by different names, and even calling Noah by different names, while still continuing to revise the story as time passes on and religions are changed; from one generation to the next. If I go to a Greek and say hi, my name is Matthew, he may not understand me. However, if I say, "hi, my name means 'gift of God' in your language, then he may understand me. Latin and Greek are very different. That's my understanding of it.
Also as far as Cairo being originally named Babylon, could you provide some credible historical link or resource as to where you recieved that information, because that sounds sketchy to me. Also, Chaldea and Ur are names listed for territories to be understood as, in the writer's understanding, Chaldea and Ur, regardless of whether that was their name during Abe's time. If you read an NIV, you may likely come across the name Persia instead of Elam, for our understanding purposes, correct? But giving the benefit of the doubt, could you provide some historical fact concerning the 'non-existence' of Ur during Abraham's time. It would also be note worthy to look into the reason why Chaldea was renamed Babylon, yet still called Chaldea after the kingdom of Babylon is mentioned in the Bible. It even makes mention of an area called Shinar, which held the kingdom of Chaldea.

I look forward to your response.

God bless
Bluefinger
QUOTE(Yelekiah @ Dec 18 2005, 06:00 PM) [snapback]981671[/snapback]

I like the last paragraph. I hope no one argues that Eden wasn't a "part" of the world, like it was a sacred place by God, therefore it couldn't flood. That would be pretty ridiculous.



True, could that sword guarding Eden be symbolic for the fact that no man may ever enter Eden again, lest he eat of the tree of life and live forever? Also, it is possible that such a garden may have been flooded, buried, and may not even exist anymore. If I plant a garden and my town floods, there's a good chance it won't be there anymore. What about siesmic disturbances along side? There's a multitude of possibilities that render a search for the garden as useless as looking for the burning bush that God's Spirit rested on to talk to Moses. It makes no relevance that we can't see it.

Like alot of historical things, we'll just have to take someone's word for it. How do we know that Andrew Jackson fought in New Orleans against the British? Historical recording, meaning, we are taking someone's word for it. If it is so easy to take a common man's word that Andrew Jackson fought off a british army with a handfull of men, then why is it so hard to believe what was recorded about Moses? Its the same concept. What's more believable, since we have no video footage or photograph's of either? I think people use faith more than they think and that's what the story of Adam and Eve and the Garden are about: faith.

God bless
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ Dec 19 2005, 03:18 AM) [snapback]982226[/snapback]

As a response to your edit at the end of your post, I do believe the chain game was played here. Noah survives, and his sons scatter across the world speaking in different languages, calling God by different names, and even calling Noah by different names, while still continuing to revise the story as time passes on and religions are changed;

OR, MUCH MORE LIKELY, the flood legends around the world are vague memories of the last ice age, ending about 10,000 years ago. During the ice age, there were vast areas of land, inhabited for thousands of years, that, before and afterwards, were underwater. there would have been intense flooding, and some would escape, bearing legends later on. it wasn't a "world wide flood", but it was pretty bad. besides, 8 humans do not have the variety of dna to populate a world. Genetics is a very interesting science. of course every culture has flood legends; there was an ice age within racial memory.

back to eden, it's a beautiful, but eponymous story; please look up the word.
Bluefinger
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Dec 19 2005, 07:27 AM) [snapback]982359[/snapback]

OR, MUCH MORE LIKELY, the flood legends around the world are vague memories of the last ice age, ending about 10,000 years ago. During the ice age, there were vast areas of land, inhabited for thousands of years, that, before and afterwards, were underwater. there would have been intense flooding, and some would escape, bearing legends later on. it wasn't a "world wide flood", but it was pretty bad. besides, 8 humans do not have the variety of dna to populate a world. Genetics is a very interesting science. of course every culture has flood legends; there was an ice age within racial memory.

back to eden, it's a beautiful, but eponymous story; please look up the word.


I see what you are saying. However, i believe the story of Creationism came out of the ice age, not the story of the flood, in my belief what happened was the last ice age cleared up and land and life came up. Perhaps the flood came from melting glaciers, but all at once? Still, saying that the Creation story is real, the whole world couldn't have been populated during that time. God bless
Rainbow Rowan
QUOTE(Ashley-Star*Child @ Dec 19 2005, 10:42 AM) [snapback]981707[/snapback]

Eden is not on Earth, but another planet. Go read Raziel or something. rolleyes.gif

Are you serious?? blink.gif

The only planet other than earth that we are exploring is Mars, and no people have ever gone there. So I guess that Earth is the only planet we have any knowledge of... rolleyes.gif
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ Dec 19 2005, 03:04 PM) [snapback]982836[/snapback]

I see what you are saying. However, i believe the story of Creationism came out of the ice age, not the story of the flood, in my belief what happened was the last ice age cleared up and land and life came up. Perhaps the flood came from melting glaciers, but all at once? Still, saying that the Creation story is real, the whole world couldn't have been populated during that time. God bless

but there was life for millions of years before the last ice age.think again about the "rumors" game.
"out there, there used to be our homeland, but it is now underwater."
six thousand years later this becomes "gilgamesh survived the flood."
7000 years later it is "noah saved all the animals"
Bluefinger
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Dec 19 2005, 05:51 PM) [snapback]983249[/snapback]

but there was life for millions of years before the last ice age.think again about the "rumors" game.
"out there, there used to be our homeland, but it is now underwater."
six thousand years later this becomes "gilgamesh survived the flood."
7000 years later it is "noah saved all the animals"



I see what you are saying. Yes there was life before the ice age. If you read Genesis, it says that creatures came up out of the earth, which could represent the creatures already created came out to enjoy the warming weather. Also, the book of Genesis isn't so much about the creation as it is with God's interaction with the mankind he created. If you notice, alot points to the ice age and then animals come out, then the vegitation springs from the ground. There could have been cavemen, but the man we know now was the man that God made, which shows the dramatic difference in the man and the caveman( i.e. less hair, shorter, bigger brain, smaller head, different backs [all factors of evolution, yes] but none that we know of preceding the ice age, right?) if i'm wrong i can accept it, seeing that this is only an idea. Also, i have the idea the serpent is the concept of Dinosaurs once being the dominating species on earth, now reduced to crawling on its stomach and eating dust. Man now dominates earth, which could be a good example of Biblical symbology. It was just written for their time, not ours. If you notice though, mankind's relationship with God is the major theme of the Bible. But that's just my ideas on it.
What do you think?
God bless
ShaunZero
QUOTE
besides, 8 humans do not have the variety of dna to populate a world.


Obviously you never heard of "Sientific Adam". Science has proven that all men living today have come from ONE man. Do a search on "Scientific Adam". It was on National Geographic not long ago.
Mekorig
Well, acording to the things i have to read for antropology, its not a single men, but a single group of aprx. 2.000 individuals.
Ashley-Star*Child
QUOTE(Rainbow Rowan @ Dec 19 2005, 08:28 PM) [snapback]982861[/snapback]

Are you serious?? blink.gif

The only planet other than earth that we are exploring is Mars, and no people have ever gone there. So I guess that Earth is the only planet we have any knowledge of... rolleyes.gif


Yes I'm serious. Deadly SERIOUS.

ALL the OT recognizes the very fact that HEAVEN is in SPACE. The 1st level is our Solar System, the 8th the 'Firmanent of Heaven' is the ACTUAL Zodiacal Belt (as in the actual ecliptic belt of Zodiac constellations). God's Throne is on the 10th level.

Raziel, being an angel dwelling among the stars himself (hence why throughout the entire Bible 'angel'(Malahk)/'sons of God'(Bene Elohim)/'star' (Kokeb) are ALL interchangeable and mean the same thing. Angels are the souls of stars which are in turn the 'thrones of the angels') was not at all forgeign with the fact that Adam and Eve were in fact a 'second kind of angel' before their fall, and that Eden was NOT on Earth. There is one planet is there not of which is suspected of once having life on it. Wanna tell me which one that is? Thanks Darlin' wink2.gif
ShaunZero
Are you saying Adam and Eve were on mars? O_o
Ashley-Star*Child
Quite possibly. thumbsup.gif
ShaunZero
I think that's a very interesting theory. Anyway you can PM me some proof/sources?
Ashley-Star*Child
Sure, I can give them to you here. The Book of Enoch, Enoch 2, and the Book of Raziel. You can PM me if there's anything else you wish to ask.

Now about Enoch, I suggest certain people making remarks in another post be directed to my debate on the subject in the Debates section, of which I won. grin2.gif Merry Christmas.
hyperactive
well of course eden is in space, where else could it be? wacko.gif wacko.gif after all, the best place to hide a mythical place and keep it mysterious is out of the reach of the minions.

good to see your as "you" as ever ashley.
ShaunZero
QUOTE(hyperactive @ Dec 22 2005, 03:49 AM) [snapback]987221[/snapback]

well of course eden is in space, where else could it be? wacko.gif wacko.gif after all, the best place to hide a mythical place and keep it mysterious is out of the reach of the minions.

good to see your as "you" as ever ashley.



Even if it really is out there[hypotheticall], we'd get the same response from every other skeptic. She believed this before this topic was even created, and if we wanted to hide "mythical places" we'd say that every other place talked about in the bible is in space. =P


Have any links to the book of Raziel? I can't seem to find one.
hyperactive
well, you have to go back and read up on ashley's position on various topics and our conversations to understand my post, zero.

Lets just say she really is deep into her mythology but when it comes to showtime, she doesn't produce evidence to support it.
Ashley-Star*Child
Doesn't produce evidence to support? Like I said, go read the debates honey. Can I say it again. I WON.

ZeroShadow,

Now about Raziel, if you go to Amazon.com and look of The Book of Rezial (some spell it Rezial, some Raziel). His name means 'secret'=Razi and 'of God'=el.
hyperactive
i will look at that ashley. so tell me though, if you have so much evidence and you are so certian of its credibility why did you never produce it when i probed you for it on various threads?
Ashley-Star*Child
You didn't ask the right questions. Closed ended questions don't go anywhere.
hyperactive
the last question i remeber asking you was for your timeline of events.
Tangerine Sheri
QUOTE(hyperactive @ Dec 21 2005, 11:50 PM) [snapback]987335[/snapback]

the last question i remeber asking you was for your timeline of events.

Interesting thread Hyper Namaste Sheri
ShaunZero
Do you like.... worship hyper?

Lol heh, just kiddin' Just felt like a bit of humor.
Tangerine Sheri
Zero, worship is such a biblical word, I can certainly recognize the fine arts of thinking, thankyou for the compliment Zero. namaste Sheri
ShaunZero
Do you worship Hyper?








........ XD
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