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GIDEON MAGE
let's try something different, shall we? I will quote the folloowing website in it's entirety, since it is my experience that you guys never read things like this unless they are quoted in full:


http://www.messiahtruth.com/anointed.html
QUOTE
True Messiah - Properly Anointed;
False Messiah - Smeared with Ointment
I. Introduction
The ninth chapter in the Book of Daniel has been a popular component in the portfolio of Christian apologists and missionaries. The passage that is commonly extracted from this chapter as an example of a definitive "messianic prophecy" is Daniel 9:24-27 because, according to most Christian translations, it contains two direct references to the Messiah (Dan 9:25-26), which are claimed to be references to Jesus. With the help of mistranslations and some mathematical hocus-pocus, they transform this passage into a prophecy that allegedly foretells the coming of Jesus and his crucifixion.
The analysis presented in this essay demonstrates that these claims concerning Daniel 9:25-26 are inconsistent with the teachings of the Hebrew Bible. Moreover, since these claims also include references to being anointed, the anointing process, as defined and applied in the Hebrew Bible, is cast into a template against which the "anointing" of Jesus, as described in the New Testament, is compared in order to test its validity.
II. Christian and Jewish Translations of Daniel 9:25-26
Table II-1 shows side-by-side English renditions and the Hebrew text of the passage Daniel 9:25-26. The Hebrew term (mashia'h) and its respective renditions in the two translations are shown in highlighted form.
Table II-1 – Daniel 9:25-26
King James Version Translation
Jewish Translation from the Hebrew
Hebrew Text
Daniel 9
25
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
And you should know and understand that, from the emergence of the word to restore and build Jerusalem until an anointed ruler, [shall be] seven weeks; and [in] sixty-two weeks it will be restored and be built, street and moat, but in troubled times.
26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one will be cut off, and [he] will be no more; and the city and the Sanctuary will be destroyed by people of the coming ruler, and his end will come about like a flood; and by end of the war, there will be desolation.

A significant disagreement exists between the two translations in their respective renditions of the noun . A study of the applications of this term in the Hebrew Bible helps resolve this issue.
III. Review of Hebrew Terminology
According to the Hebrew Bible, the men who were selected to fill the positions of the high priest [ (ha'kohen ha'gadol)] and king [ (melech)] had to go through a ritual anointing ceremony. The Hebrew root verb (mashah), [to] anoint, appears in the Hebrew Bible 70 times in various conjugations. This verb is used on 63 occasions to describe an act of anointing, i.e., applying a specially prepared oil or compound to someone or something for the purpose of sanctification or consecration; and on the seven remaining occasions, it is used in the context of covering something with paint or oil for various other purposes.
Someone who went through the process of anointing was referred to as (mashi'ah), an anointed one, in the Hebrew Bible. The noun derives from the root verb , [to] anoint, and it appears in various conjugations and forms in the Hebrew Bible on 39 occasions. The salient fact about the noun is that not one of these 39 instances refers to the Messiah. The reason is that the usage of the noun as the present Hebrew term for Messiah is a product of the first century B.C.E., which is interesting information that emerged from research done on the Dead Sea Scrolls. Around that time, the Jewish messianic vision experienced a significant paradigm shift from the expectation of an era (i.e., “End of Days”) to an expectation of a Jewish leader who will deliver Israel ("Redeemer"). This fact alone defeats the claim by Christian apologists and missionaries concerning references to the Messiah in Daniel 9:25-26.
IV. Application of the Noun in the Hebrew Bible
An analysis of the 39 applications of the noun in the Hebrew Bible, and how these are rendered in most Christian Bibles, provides the Biblical evidence that refutes the claims concerning its occurrences in Daniel 9:25-26. Table IV-1 shows the 39 applications of the noun in the Hebrew Bible. Each form of the noun is shown separately along with the frequency of occurrence, a pronunciation guide (CAPS identify the accented syllable), the respective Scriptural citations, the correct English translation, and the respective KJV rendition. References indicate chapter and verse numbers in the Hebrew Bible; verse numbers in Christian Bibles, if different from the Hebrew Bible, are shown in brackets.
Table IV-1 – The term in the Hebrew Bible and its KJV renditions
Hebrew Term
#
Pronunciation
References
Correct Translation
KJV Rendition
3
mah-SHEE-ah
2 Sam 1:21
an anointed
anointed
Dan 9:25
an anointed
The Messiah
Dan 9:26
an anointed
Messiah
4
ha'mah-SHEE-ah
Lev 4:3,5,16,6:15[22]
the anointed
[the priest] that is anointed
8
me-SHEE-ah
1 Sam 24:6,10, 26:16; 2 Sam 1:14,16, 19:22[21], 23:1;
Lam 4:20
anointed [of]
anointed [of]
3
bim-SHEE-ah
1 Sam 26:9,11,23
against the anointed of -
against [the LORD's] anointed
1
lim-SHEE-ah
1 Sam 24:7
to the anointed of -
to [the LORD's] anointed
1
me-shee-HEE
1 Sam 2:35
my anointed
mine anointed
1
lim-shee-HEE
Ps 132:17
for/to my anointed
for mine anointed
6
me-shee-HEH-cha
Hab 3:13; Ps 84:10[9], 89:39[38],52[51], 132:10; 2 Chron 6:42
your anointed
thine anointed
7
me-shee-HO
1 Sam 2:10, 12:3,5, 16:6; Ps 2:2, 20:7[6], 28:8
his anointed
his anointed, *[the LORD's] anointed
3
lim-shee-HO
2 Sam 22:51; Is 45:1; Ps 18:51[50]
to his anointed
to his anointed
2
bim-shee-HAI
Ps 105:15;
1 Chron 16:22
at/upon my anointed
[touch not] mine anointed
The KJV rendition of the term differs from the generic an anointed one in only two cases out of the 39 applications, with both instances occurring in Daniel 9:25-26. The question is: "What motivated the KJV translators to cast the term as a reference to the Messiah in Daniel 9:25-26, particularly in view of the historical fact that this association of the two terms came much later than the Book of Daniel?"
A related issue arises from the way some other Christian Bibles render the noun in Daniel 9:25-26, as shown in Table IV-2.
Table IV-2 – The term as rendered in other Christian Bibles
Source
Verse
Source Translation
Correct Translation

Amplified Bible (AMP)
Daniel 9:25
the Anointed One
an anointed one

Daniel 9:26

New International Version (NIV)
Daniel 9:25
the Anointed One
an anointed one

Daniel 9:26

New Living Translation (NLT)
Daniel 9:25
the Anointed One
an anointed one

Daniel 9:26

World English Bible (WEB)
Daniel 9:25
the Anointed One
an anointed one
Daniel 9:26
The translation of as the Anointed One, although closer to the correct an anointed one, still contains Christological bias, though it is more subtle. The use of the definite article, the, and the capitalization of the terms in the expression, Anointed One, is a design that implicitly points to Jesus.
For the sake of fairness, it should be noted, however, that not all Christian Bibles have mistranslated in Daniel 9:25-26. Among the Christian Bibles that translate the term correctly are: Basic Bible in English (BBE), Revised Standard Version (RSV), and New Revised Standard Version (NRSV).
V. Anointing According to the Hebrew Bible
The process of anointing
According to the Hebrew Bible, the substance used and the ritual performed are the two significant components of the anointing process.
1. The substance
In order to be considered properly anointed, a king (or high priest) had to be sprinkled with a special substance that was stored in a special container, and which was prepared from pure olive oil, according to the following formula:
Exodus 30:22-25 – (22) And the L-rd spoke to Moses, saying, (23) "And you, take for yourself spices of the finest sort - of pure myrrh five hundred [shekel weights]; of fragrant cinnamon half of it, two hundred and fifty [shekel weights]; of fragrant cane two hundred and fifty [shekel weights], (24) and of cassia five hundred [shekel weights] according to the sacred shekel, and one hin of olive oil. (25) And you shall make it onto an oil of sacred anointment [ (shemen mish'hat-qodesh)] a perfumed compound according to the art of the perfumer; it shall be an oil of sacred anointment [ (shemen mish'hat-qodesh)]."
No other substance is acceptable for anointing and, being a holy substance, this anointing oil had to be stored in the (portable) Tabernacle while the Israelites were in the wilderness, and in the Temple in Jerusalem later on.
2. The ritual
Moses was commanded to anoint his brother Aaron as the first high priest:
Exodus 29:7 – And then you shall take the anointing oil, and pour [it] upon his head, and anoint him.
The Hebrew Bible contains several accounts of the anointing of royalty in Israel.
a. King Saul
Saul was anointed as King of Israel when the prophet Samuel poured the special oil on his head:
1 Samuel 10:1 - And Samuel took the vial of oil, and poured it on his [Saul's] head, and kissed him. And he [Samuel] said, "Indeed, the L-rd has anointed you to be a ruler over His inheritance."
b. King David
David, the son of Jesse, was anointed as King of Israel when the prophet Samuel poured the special oil on his head:
1 Samuel 16:13 - And Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him [David] in the midst of his brothers. And a spirit of the L-rd passed over David from that day forth, and Samuel arose and went to Ramah.
c. King Solomon
This is who anointed Solomon to be King of Israel, and how it was done:
1 Kings 1:34,39,45 - (34) And Zadok the [high] priest and Nathan the prophet shall anoint him [Solomon] there as king over Israel, and blow the horn and say, "[Long] live King Solomon."
(39) And Zadok the [High] Priest took the horn of oil from the Tabernacle [the Sanctuary] and anointed Solomon, and they blew the shofar [ram's horn], and all the people said, "Long live king Solomon."
(45) And Zadok the [high] priest and Nathan the prophet anointed him [Solomon] king in Gihon, and they came up from there rejoicing, and (therefore) the city was in an uproar; that is the noise you were hearing.
A template for the anointing of kings
The Biblical accounts of the anointing of the first three kings of Israel, Saul, David, and Solomon, contain the necessary elements for the construction of a template for the process of anointing royalty of Israel, one of which will be the promised Jewish Messiah. According to the Hebrew Bible, these elements are:
[1] A special preparation from pure olive oil was used as the oil of anointing.
[2] Being sacred, the anointing oil was stored in the Temple.
[3] A universally recognized prophet performed the ritual of anointing a king.
[4] The prophets used the vial of oil, or the horn of oil, to anoint the new king, not merely a vial of oil or a horn of oil.[1]
[5] The oil of anointing was poured only on the head.
[6] Anointing was tantamount to crowning a king (or appointing a high priest).[2]
I. Anointing According to the New Testament
This template for the anointing process can now be used to test the validity of the anointing of Jesus, as deduced from the accounts in the New Testament.
The process of anointing
1. The substance
The four Gospel authors describe the substance used on Jesus as follows:
Matthew 26:7-9(KJV) – (7) There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat. (8) But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste? (9) For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.
Mark 14:3-5(KJV) – (3) And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; and she brake the box, and poured it on his head. (4) And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made? (5) For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her.
Luke 7:37(KJV) - And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
John 12:3-5(KJV) – (3) Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. (4) Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, (5) Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
1. The ritual
All four Gospel authors describe the manner in which Jesus was anointed:
Matthew 26:7(KJV) - There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat.
Mark 14:3(KJV) - And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; and she brake the box, and poured it on his head.
Luke 7:37-38,46(KJV) – (37) And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, (38) And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
(46) My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
John 11:2(KJV) - (It was that Mary which anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.)
John 12:3(KJV) - Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
Moreover, Jesus himself allegedly states the purpose of his anointing:
Matthew 26:12(KJV) - For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial.
Mark 14:8(KJV) - She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.
Elements of the ritual of anointing Jesus
The accounts quoted from the Gospels contain the elements of the process that was described as the anointing of Jesus, and these are listed in the order of the elements in the template for the anointing process developed above:
[1] The substance used to anoint Jesus was an ointment of spikenard.[3]
[1] It is unknown from where the costly ointment of spikenard came. It clearly was not a sacred substance, since people complained about having wasted it by pouring it on Jesus rather than selling it and giving the money to the poor.
[2] Jesus was anointed by a woman (Mary of Bethany, described as a sinner).
[3] The ointment used on Jesus was contained in an alabaster box.[4]
[4] There are conflicting accounts in the New Testament about where on his body the anointing substance was applied to Jesus. The accounts in the Gospels of Matthew and Mark say it was applied to his head; while the accounts in the Gospels of Luke and John state it was applied to his feet only.
[5] Jesus declared that his anointing was a preparation for burial, i.e., for death, and not for kingship.[5]
II. The Anointing of Jesus Contrasted with the Requirements in the Hebrew Bible
Table VII-1 contains an element-by-element comparison of the components of the anointing process in the template against the accounts described in the Gospels. For each element, a yes/no score indicates whether the respective component from the Gospel accounts meets the specification set forth in the Hebrew Bible.
Table VII-1 – Hebrew Bible specifications versus New Testament accounts of anointing
Item
Hebrew Bible Specifications
According to the
New Testament
Comments
Valid?
[1]
The oil of anointing was a special mixture of spices and pure olive oil.
The substance used to anoint Jesus was an ointment of spikenard.
Ointment of spikenard, no matter how costly, cannot substitute for the sacred special oil.
NO
[2]
Being sacred, the oil of anointing had to be stored in the Temple.
The spikenard was not sacred, and its source is unknown.
Sacred items were kept in the Temple, and were not offered for sale.
NO
[3]
A recognized prophet had to anoint a king.
A woman named Mary anointed Jesus.
Did a recognized prophet anoint Jesus?
NO
[4]
A special vial, or special horn, of the special anointing oil had to be used in anointing a king.
The spikenard ointment used on Jesus came from an alabaster box.
The Hebrew Bible never speaks of alabaster containers used for holding the oil of anointing.
NO
[5]
The oil of anointing was poured on the head only.
2 accounts - head only;
2 accounts - feet only.
Which version of the account is the true one?
NO
[6]
The anointing was a preparation for kingship (or high priesthood).
Jesus declared his anointing was to prepare him for burial.
Jesus never reigned as the monarch over any kingdom.
NO
This comparison demonstrates that the anointing of Jesus, as described in the New Testament, violates all the specifications for a valid anointing of royalty in Israel as provided in the Hebrew Bible.
Conclusion: Jesus was smeared with ointment and not properly anointed and,
for that reason alone, he was a false Messiah.
III. Summary
Two important and interconnected issues were addressed. The first question concerned the Hebrew noun as it appears in Daniel 9:25-26:
¤ What is the correct translation of the Hebrew noun , which appears twice in the passage Daniel 9:25-26?
According to most Christian translations, the term points to Jesus either by being translated as [the] Messiah or the Anointed One. A word study on all 39 occurrences in the Hebrew Bible of the noun in its various forms demonstrated that the correct translation is an anointed one, a "generic" reference to two different individuals who were to appear on the scene at some future time, neither of whom had any connection to the Jewish Messiah.
The question concerned the validity of the "anointing" of Jesus, which arose from the translation of the term in some Christian Bibles as the Anointed One:
¤ Did the "anointing" of Jesus, as described in the New Testament, conform to the specifications given in the Hebrew Bible?
To help determine the validity of the "anointing" process which the accounts in the New Testament describe, a template for the anointing process of kings and high priests of Israel was constructed from the specifications detailed in the Hebrew Bible. The relevant elements of information were then extracted from the accounts in the New Testament which describe the "anointing" of Jesus, and these were compared, on an element-by-element basis against the template. The analysis demonstrated that Jesus was not anointed according to the specifications described in the Hebrew Bible.
Therefore, since Jesus was never properly anointed according to the specifications contained in the Hebrew Bible, the Scripture in force during his lifetime, neither of the two applications of the term in Daniel 9:25-26 can possibly point to him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] King David and his royal descendants were anointed with the sacred oil poured from the horn. According to the Jewish Sages, this indicated the superiority of the Davidic kings over the non-Davidic kings of Israel (e.g., Saul), who were anointed using the vial.
[2] Saul, David, and Solomon all sat on the throne as kings soon after being anointed. They successfully fought those nations that were enemies of Israel. They commanded entire governments, complete with soldiers, spies, tax collectors, foreign ambassadors, treasuries, palace servants and courts.
[3] The American Heritage Dictionary (Second College Edition, Houghton Mifflin Company, Publishers [1991]), describes spikenard as: "1. An aromatic plant, Nardostachys jatamansi, of India, having rose-purple flowers. 2. A costly ointment of antiquity, probably prepared from the spikenard."
[4] The authors of the New Testament refer to Jesus as the "son of David", implying that he is from the royal line of King David: Matthew 1:1(KJV) - The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. If, as claimed in the New Testament, Jesus were a bona fide king of the Davidic dynasty, why was the anointing substance taken from an alabaster box and not from that special vessel called the horn?
[5] The New Testament is silent on whether Jesus sat on the throne of David during his lifetime, and whether he led a Jewish army in any battles against Israel's enemies and defeated them. Likewise, there is no mention in the New Testament of Jesus being in command of an entire political government.
Copyright © 2001-2005, Uri Yosef for http://www.MessiahTruth.com.
All rights reserved.


comments? don't even tell me that jews don't know hebrew.
aquatus1
It has been my experience that no one reads posts this long either. The best responses I have seen have been to a link, a brief description and maybe some excerpts, and a good paragraph as to why you find this interesting.
Tangerine Sheri
Wow gid, Can you give alittle more detail only kidding. Namaste sheri
ramster83
QUOTE(Sheri berri @ Dec 26 2005, 03:06 PM) [snapback]993060[/snapback]

Wow gid, Can you give alittle more detail only kidding. Namaste sheri


Thats SO long man, i cant read it all now. hmm.gif
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(aquatus1 @ Dec 25 2005, 10:59 PM) [snapback]993052[/snapback]

It has been my experience that no one reads posts this long either. The best responses I have seen have been to a link, a brief description and maybe some excerpts, and a good paragraph as to why you find this interesting.

sorry-i didn't want to leave anything out.
Paranoid Android
The rest of the guys are right, I didn't read it all either. But to answer from my own knowledge of Daniel, I have to say it is much like the book of Revelation. That is to say, apocryphal in nature. The imagery and symbolism may very well be speaking of Jesus. It may very well not be. I don't know the answer.

Also, there are specific similarities between Daniel and Revelation. For example, the angel says to Daniel to seal up these words for the time is not yet near. In Revelation, the angel says to open these words up for the time is near. If there is correlation between Daniel and Revelation, and they are considered as two parts of a whole, Revelation being the "revelation of Jesus Christ" (Rev 1:1), it is possible that at least some of Daniel is also the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Just a thought.

Regards, PA
Lord Umbarger
I read something very similer to that post onthe "Jews for Judaism" site. Years ago I read it in a pamflet that they sent out if you called them and requested it. It should be a must read for most people of the X-tian faith. Then they can stop asking why Jews don't believe in Jesus.
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Lord Umbarger @ Dec 28 2005, 02:23 AM) [snapback]995569[/snapback]

I read something very similer to that post onthe "Jews for Judaism" site. Years ago I read it in a pamflet that they sent out if you called them and requested it. It should be a must read for most people of the X-tian faith. Then they can stop asking why Jews don't believe in Jesus.

thanks. you notice that both of them said they couldn't bear to read it.I did put a link to the source, which is a lot easier. Isn't it funny how they just gobble up bs about josephus or an apologist site, but can't handle the truth? just goes to show. xians don't care about the real stuff. I advise them to get a jps translation, a real jewish bible translated from hebrew, and they tell me they like niv. like the betulah versus almah controversy. if you read isaiah, the whole book, not just the part the xians like, you find out that there is no virgin prophecy, and the "suffering servant" is plainly the jewish people "jacob, my servant"-now how is that somehow jesus, unless you can't read. even in kjv is says jacob my servant. so the fact that he wasn't the king of the jews, wasn't annointed by the kohen hagadol, was not descended from david, unless he was the son of joseph, clearly not the messiah, and not god or a god, doesn't bother them at all.
Chokmah
QUOTE(aquatus1 @ Dec 26 2005, 03:59 AM) [snapback]993052[/snapback]

It has been my experience that no one reads posts this long either. The best responses I have seen have been to a link, a brief description and maybe some excerpts, and a good paragraph as to why you find this interesting.


heh, thats true, I read a little, then realised how long it was and skipped down to the comments.

but from what i did read, its... quite interesting happy.gif .
seanph
QUOTE
lso, there are specific similarities between Daniel and Revelation. For example, the angel says to Daniel to seal up these words for the time is not yet near. In Revelation, the angel says to open these words up for the time is near. If there is correlation between Daniel and Revelation, and they are considered as two parts of a whole, Revelation being the "revelation of Jesus Christ" (Rev 1:1), it is possible that at least some of Daniel is also the revelation of Jesus Christ.


Toss out Revelation. It is a book written in response to events taking place at that time--late 90's CE. Nero is the main focus, for it was feared that he would actually return with an army and continue his persecution of the Christians. It has nothing to do with the church of today and the fate of the world.

"John wrote to illuminate his own situation. Later, when his specific circumstances were forgotten, some took Revelation as a literal prediction of the future; others, in reaction against crude literalism, especially with regard to the millennium, interpreted it allegorically and saw the millennium as the present age of the church. In the twelfth century, Joachim of Fiore drew from Revelation (along with the rest of scripture) an understanding of the whole movement of history; his vision came to be widely influential. At various times, people have seen Revelation as a veiled picture of the subsequent history of the world or of the church, placing themselves at the penultimate moment and identifying beast and harlot with current bogeys, whether emperor or pope, church or sect. But it is now clear that John wrote for a past situation and that to look for literal fulfillments in the events of our day is misguided."--JOHN SWEET, Oxford Companion to the Bible

As for Daniel ... It, like Revelation, has nothing to do with such matters. It deals with events of its day--mainly the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the Maccabean Revolt.

" The theological value of the book of Daniel does not lie in its ability to predict the future. According to the text of Daniel 7.9–27, the great judgment of the kingdoms of the earth and the establishment of “one like a son of man [NRSV: human being]” (Daniel 7.13)—who may be “the holy ones of the Most High” themselves (Daniel 7.19)—should have occurred during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the “little horn” with the “mouth speaking arrogantly” (Daniel 7.8). Such an eschatological crisis did not, of course, happen in the reign of Antiochus. The canonizers themselves must have known this; perhaps they had already reinterpreted the four beasts who rise out of the sea in Daniel 7 in such a way as to make Rome the fourth beast and the little horn some Roman emperor. By means of reinterpretation of the symbols of the apocalypse, it would have been possible to keep the timetable of events leading up to the last judgment open, and it was that openness that enabled the writer of Revelation 20 to transform Daniel 7 into a vision of the imminent worldwide crisis known as the day of judgment.

But all attempts to discern an actual timetable in the apocalyptic scenario of Daniel finally are doomed to failure. As Jews and Christians affirm, the Bible is a human word, and therefore cannot accurately predict events of the distant future in the manner of history written in advance..."--W. SIBLEY TOWNER, Oxford Companion to the Bible


Sean
GIDEON MAGE
BRAVO, SEANPH.
I have attempted to explain this before. The xians don't listen.
The book of Revelations is a political satire, in a very common form at the time. I gurantee that the original readers of revelations laughed loudly at the obviously extremely humorous references to emperor Nero. The biblical language was to hide the jokes from any Roman readers. Most people at the time knew exactly what the book was about. the problem, again, is the church councils, 400 years later, not knowing what the book was about. I can only imagine the readers of the time guffawing at Nero being called a "beast". Let me compare to Gulliver's Travels. In the same sense, Gulliver's Travels was written only 200 years ago, with symbolism about the events of the time, now a great work of "fiction", was a wonderful political satire. Only 200 years later, most modern readers are lost to the political commentary. I concur with you, seanph-ALL THE EVENTS OF REVELATIONS HAPPENED ALREADY OVER A THOUSAND YEARS AGO.
Paranoid Android
GIDEON MAGE: thanks. you notice that both of them said they couldn't bear to read it.I did put a link to the source, which is a lot easier.

We said we found it too long, not that we couldn't bear to read it. If there was a Josephus post the same length, I probably wouldn't read it either. Don't try to turn this into something it's not mad.gif

GIDEON MAGE: just goes to show. xians don't care about the real stuff. I advise them to get a jps translation, a real jewish bible translated from hebrew, and they tell me they like niv..

And did you forget the part in my post where I go to the original Hebrew/Greek scriptures (of which I do own my own Greek New Testament) and study the original words and try to see what it's really trying to say. Or do you find it convenient to forget these things.

seanph: Toss out Revelation. It is a book written in response to events taking place at that time--late 90's CE.

I realise this is one interpretation of Revelation (and of Daniel), and I am not denying its possibility. But this is still only one interpretation. ANd it could very well be the wrong one.

GIDEON MAGE: I have attempted to explain this before. The xians don't listen.

Indeed we do listen. We just disagree. I think you have a persecution complex, Gid.

Regards, PA
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Dec 28 2005, 06:27 PM) [snapback]996349[/snapback]

GIDEON MAGE: thanks. you notice that both of them said they couldn't bear to read it.I did put a link to the source, which is a lot easier.

We said we found it too long, not that we couldn't bear to read it. If there was a Josephus post the same length, I probably wouldn't read it either. Don't try to turn this into something it's not mad.gif

GIDEON MAGE: just goes to show. xians don't care about the real stuff. I advise them to get a jps translation, a real jewish bible translated from hebrew, and they tell me they like niv..

And did you forget the part in my post where I go to the original Hebrew/Greek scriptures (of which I do own my own Greek New Testament) and study the original words and try to see what it's really trying to say. Or do you find it convenient to forget these things.

seanph: Toss out Revelation. It is a book written in response to events taking place at that time--late 90's CE.

I realise this is one interpretation of Revelation (and of Daniel), and I am not denying its possibility. But this is still only one interpretation. ANd it could very well be the wrong one.

GIDEON MAGE: I have attempted to explain this before. The xians don't listen.

Indeed we do listen. We just disagree. I think you have a persecution complex, Gid.

Regards, PA

well, i posted the link-the original is much easier to follow
Paranoid Android
For the record, the ESV is a lot better than King James:

Daniel 9:25-26 (ESV) - Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Dec 28 2005, 11:27 PM) [snapback]996763[/snapback]

For the record, the ESV is a lot better than King James:

Daniel 9:25-26 (ESV) - Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

and rashi's commentary explains this as referring to kings darius, titus and agrippa.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?...&showrashi=true
Lord Umbarger
Gideon hits it again! It's been my experience that most X-tians only listen to the parts of the Torah that support thier beliefs. The rest is , in thier words, "done away with because of jesus". Of course, this would negate the words of jesus who is supposed to have said that he came to fulfill the law not to abolish it. Once again, selective hearing loss!
GIDEON MAGE
the main problem is, that the n.t. writers, in the fourth century, took whatever looked like it might be a messianic prophecy, and changed their gospels to fit it. Like the prophecy in isaiah about the young woman giving birth to isaiah's own son, immanuel. easily twisted around to a virgin birth. and daniel's words about kings in his time, and shortly afterwards: Done! gets on one's nerves, eh. my original aim starting this much-ignored thread, was to point out that, not only was you-know-who not the messiah, but not a king, and not annointed. how simple can it be? jewish descent is through the father. if mary was raped by the holy spirit, then Yeshu was not a patrilineal descendant of David. Not the king. then there is the bethlehem thing. he was born in bethlehem of judaea before it was even built! It is eloquentlly said here:

http://messiahtruth.com/torahchat/bethlehemofgalilee.pdf
theoric
interesting read gideon. i do beleive that jesus was a false messiah (in fact there are a few other things false about him...)
Paranoid Android
QUOTE(Lord Umbarger)
Gideon hits it again! It's been my experience that most X-tians only listen to the parts of the Torah that support thier beliefs. The rest is , in thier words, "done away with because of jesus". Of course, this would negate the words of jesus who is supposed to have said that he came to fulfill the law not to abolish it. Once again, selective hearing loss!
Is this an American thing again? Never have I heard "done away with". Not once. Never. None of the Law has been done away with. it has been fulfilled. Where it once was incomplete, now it is complete.

Regards, PA
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Dec 29 2005, 11:30 PM) [snapback]997888[/snapback]

Is this an American thing again? Never have I heard "done away with". Not once. Never. None of the Law has been done away with. it has been fulfilled. Where it once was incomplete, now it is complete.

Regards, PA

does that mean you only eat kosher food, or don't mix fabrics?
Paranoid Android
Does that mean you only eat kosher food

Matthew 11, (Jesus speaking) Do you not know that what you eat goes into your body, out through the system, it is what comes out of you that makes you unclean. See, F-U-L-F-I-L-L-E-D. The Old Testament Law of not eating certain foods, fulfilled to mean being clean in the heart.

don't mix fabrics?

Oops, I guess I'm going to hell. I could say something about this being a Law specifically for the Priesthood, but you'd accuse me of wiggling, right.
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Dec 29 2005, 11:49 PM) [snapback]997902[/snapback]

Does that mean you only eat kosher food

Matthew 11, (Jesus speaking) Do you not know that what you eat goes into your body, out through the system, it is what comes out of you that makes you unclean. See, F-U-L-F-I-L-L-E-D. The Old Testament Law of not eating certain foods, fulfilled to mean being clean in the heart.

don't mix fabrics?

Oops, I guess I'm going to hell. I could say something about this being a Law specifically for the Priesthood, but you'd accuse me of wiggling, right.

but he says the law is not to be changed, in all four gospels. and the fabric one is not just for priests, btw. again, i look for the meaning.
ShaunZero
QUOTE
I realise this is one interpretation of Revelation (and of Daniel), and I am not denying its possibility. But this is still only one interpretation. ANd it could very well be the wrong one.


Stole the words right out of my mouth.
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(ZeroShadow @ Dec 30 2005, 12:29 AM) [snapback]997930[/snapback]

Stole the words right out of my mouth.

because you don't want to hear the truth, based on scholarship. there is interpretation, then there is actual knowledge.
Lord Umbarger
The messiah that we Jews are waiting on has not come. If he had it would not be an issue of faith, it would be an issue of fact. Just like no one doubts that the sky is blue or that water is wet.

The truth is that when the messiah gets here, the world will know it. The world will change. One of the bigger proofs is that little requirement about "...And they shall learn war no more." Uh, we still fight wars right? Have been for a really long time.

A X-tian friend of mine once told me that that will happen when Jesus comes back. To me that makes no sence. Why wait on him and not the myriad of others that have claimed to be the messiah? Why not wait on my Grandfather? If my Grandfather came back and fulfilled the prophacies then HE would be the messiah! Until these things are fulfilled, no one is the Jewish Messiah. Whenever they are, who ever does it, will be him.
zandore
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ Dec 29 2005, 11:49 PM) [snapback]997902[/snapback]

Matthew 11, (Jesus speaking) Do you not know that what you eat goes into your body, out through the system, it is what comes out of you that makes you unclean. See, F-U-L-F-I-L-L-E-D. The Old Testament Law of not eating certain foods, fulfilled to mean being clean in the heart.

There is a difference from a prophecy being fulfilled and laws being done away with.

Here is some reading for you.
QUOTE
The gospels do not tell us much about this 'city' – it has a synagogue, it can scare up a hostile crowd (prompting JC's famous "prophet rejected in his own land" quote), and it has a precipice – but the city status of Nazareth is clearly established, at least according to that source of nonsense called the Bible.

However when we look for historical confirmation of this hometown of a god – surprise, surprise! – no other source confirms that the place even existed in the 1st century AD.


• Nazareth is not mentioned even once in the entire Old Testament. The Book of Joshua (19.10,16) – in what it claims is the process of settlement by the tribe of Zebulon in the area – records twelve towns and six villages and yet omits any 'Nazareth' from its list.

• The Talmud, although it names 63 Galilean towns, knows nothing of Nazareth, nor does early rabbinic literature.

• St Paul knows nothing of 'Nazareth'. Rabbi Solly's epistles (real and fake) mention Jesus 221 times, Nazareth not at all.

• No ancient historian or geographer mentions Nazareth. It is first noted at the beginning of the 4th century.
Nazareth


QUOTE
A Walking, Talking Contradiction

If Jesus had been the creation of a single author his character might have been consistent and believable. But as the work of many hands the godman is a mass of contradictions, most notoriously over his very divinity.

Is the superhero God? It's something that Christ-followers have drawn blood over at least since the time of Arius in the 4th century. Even a child could assemble a mass of quotations both for and against the idea (all the way from "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) to "My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46).
Jesus as a neighbor


QUOTE
There is NO corroborating evidence for the existence of the 12 Apostles and absolutely NO evidence for the colourful variety of martyrs' deaths they supposedly experienced. The Bible itself actually mentions the death of only two apostles, a James who was put to death by Herod Agrippa (see James for a discussion of this tricky character) and the nasty Judas Iscariot (see below), who gets several deaths because he's the bad guy.
The 12 Apostles
Irish
It’s really quite uncomplicated.
Live by the laws of God and be judged on those same laws or except the paid redemption provided by the same God who fulfilled all the requirements of His law within Jesus Christ. Believe it or not!
Irish
GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Irish @ Dec 30 2005, 10:57 AM) [snapback]998304[/snapback]

It’s really quite uncomplicated.
Live by the laws of God and be judged on those same laws or except the paid redemption provided by the same God who fulfilled all the requirements of His law within Jesus Christ. Believe it or not!
Irish

Just more proof that:

BEING A CHRISTIAN=NOT WANTING TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS.

No thank you, I am not an evil person. I take full responsibility for myself, and do not need your imaginary, fake, fictional, loser so-called "messiah". And i don't believe in your fictional, manufactured, pagan look-alike hell, either. Hide behind your savior; you will be judged, anyway. Your neshamah will go to she'ol, like anyone else, then return to god in due time. your savior has no power to delay or speed this up. only god is real. start repenting now, and lose your hatred for other human beings.
Irish
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Dec 30 2005, 10:52 AM) [snapback]998414[/snapback]

Just more proof that:

BEING A CHRISTIAN=NOT WANTING TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS.

No thank you, I am not an evil person. I take full responsibility for myself, and do not need your imaginary, fake, fictional, loser so-called "messiah". And i don't believe in your fictional, manufactured, pagan look-alike hell, either. Hide behind your savior; you will be judged, anyway. Your neshamah will go to she'ol, like anyone else, then return to god in due time. your savior has no power to delay or speed this up. only god is real. start repenting now, and lose your hatred for other human beings.

I am glad that you feel that you can stand before the Judge on your own merit; you must have lived a remarkably good life.
I however have stumbled many times in my life and am happy that some one else paid the price for me because I can’t afford it nor deserve it.
My actions are not a pre-requisite to my salvation so the good things I accomplish in life are from my heart and have no selfish reward to expect. Can you claim the same?

I would not stoop to call your beliefs a fantasy or false unless I could prove it to you without a doubt. Perhaps you have evidence that my belief is false other than your own belief. If so please share with us, but do not judge us as being unintelligent and unreasonable because that is a false assumption.
You have no idea what credentials I hold or what level of intelligence I am at. And by making that assumption you only demonstrate your lack of kindness to your fellow man as well as any moral fortitude.
Remove the mote from your own eye!
And good luck in front of THE JUDGE!

All The Best Irish

Tangerine Sheri
QUOTE(Irish @ Dec 30 2005, 09:57 AM) [snapback]998304[/snapback]

It’s really quite uncomplicated.
Live by the laws of God and be judged on those same laws or except the paid redemption provided by the same God who fulfilled all the requirements of His law within Jesus Christ. Believe it or not!
Irish



Irish this is how to be a good religious person as defined by man and religion, it has not been determined that this is gods "word' outside of religon. Actually the evidence points to it isn't, IMO it doesn't matter to anyone but you, you give the meaning to your life that works for you, many choose religion for the discipline it brings them, many think of themselves as sinners so this is a way to aspire to be better. Its not anything more than a construct , there is no such thing as right and wrong, there is what works and what doesn't work, and religion doesn't work for what its intending to do. It has made no progress in preventing the killing of others actually it advocates it. Namaste sheri
GIDEON MAGE
For myself, since I can't speak for anyone else: I don't have an ego big enough to believe I am going to some heaven, leaving the majority of humanity to wallow in some imaginary hell. Irish, I will turn your insults back at you. You don't know what credentials I hold, nor have I criticized yours, nor do I care. Your response just proves that you jumped to conclusions, and didn't read the post that started this thread. As I stated before, the whole concept of heaven and hell is foreign to the hebrew scriptures, and invented by the writers of the n.t. to scare people. Believe what you like. I try to educate people here as best as I can. Why would an all-powerful God have to do anything special to violate his own laws? This is basically the main theme in xianity, other than the idea that God somehow lied to the jews, or that the jews were to stupid to understand their own scriptures. I will give the answer I have learned from Buddhism, which really is a peaceful religion: I refuse to accept your anger, and your hatred for humanity. If I really, really thought that God hated the human race enough to send a "savior", that only a small percentage of humanity would follow, otherwise send you to hell, I would not accept that gift. Since I believe in a loving God, unlike you, I have nothing to fear. Why do you think so many have gone to the grave for refusing to believe in your bastard false messiah? Don't you think everyone in the world would just fawn over him by now? We won't be fooled. Live in your hatred and delusion. Xianity is the world's largest organized institution of hate and loathing.
Irish
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Dec 30 2005, 12:04 PM) [snapback]998511[/snapback]

Why do you think so many have gone to the grave for refusing to believe in your bastard false messiah? Don't you think everyone in the world would just fawn over him by now? We won't be fooled. Live in your hatred and delusion. Xianity is the world's largest organized institution of hate and loathing.


I ask you, who? here is demonstrating anger, and hatred toward his fellow man?

GideonMag, In the words of Shakespeare ”Thoust doth protest too much” Are your views and feelings so right that the rest of us are plain fools in your eyes? What is your motivation in your constant barrage of others faiths? Could it be you fear you may be wrong? Or do your arrogances have no satiation?
As I have said before you seriously need to look into some anger management courses before you prematurely get all the answers you did not want to hear!
All The Best
Irish

GIDEON MAGE
I'm not the one threatening others with judgement if they don't follow my savior. If you had read any of my previous post where I explain how all paths go to god, you would see what my point of view is. I have nothing to sell, and no religion to force down others' throats. I do not follow an obviously-manufactured religion that is a remnant of the last roman emperor's attempts to rescue a dying empire. I don't follow a religion that sends missionaries to starving countries to force them to convert. and anger; something i said must have seriously challenged your ego. why do you keep attacking me?
Irish
QUOTE(GIDEON MAGE @ Dec 30 2005, 12:44 PM) [snapback]998548[/snapback]

I'm not the one threatening others with judgement if they don't follow my savior.


Please show me where I have threatened you!

QUOTE
refusing to believe in your bastard false messiah


And these are not words of anger?

QUOTE
I have nothing to sell, and no religion to force down others' throats.


Just your opinion you wish to force!

QUOTE
I try to educate people here as best as I can


Your teaching skills need a little work!

QUOTE
I refuse to accept your anger, and your hatred for humanity.


Again please show me where I demonstrated any anger or hatred toward anyone here!

QUOTE
why do you keep attacking me?


Perhaps it is because you take what I and many others believe and cherish and lable it with the following words.

QUOTE
hatred and delusion, bastard false messiah, institution of hate and loathing, loser so-called "messiah,


What do you expect in return? Flowers

Irish
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