I think so called holy books or sacred wrintings can be an interesting area of reading and study. To make the leap and actually believe they are divine in nature seems crazy to me.

I believe the bible was written by men. I also believe that religion has always been used as a tool of control and manipulation. I think most of the stories were just made up and handed down to the generations.

Tracer

welcome to u-m. I agree 100%.However, this doesn't preclude the existance of deity, which is reflected in the literature. I think Moses saw something on that mountain; we just don't know what. Same with Buddha. Saw something. the trouble starts when these people try to tell others about what they experienced. I think Lao Tsu put it best: "the sage teaches a doctrine without words." The problem begins when others get hold of the wisdom and exploit it.

Welcome Tracer To UM forum!

I think sacredness is in all things, often the ignorant mind reads something it agrees with and suddenly thinks they have the 'way' or the truth, truth needs no promotion or fanfare it can stand on its own. It doesn't need to be taught in some book its built in , it simply is a matter of where you are looking.
These writings IMO are tradition that has been passed down once orally, now written, the truly great minds had messages that were simple and said very little. An attribute of a great mind is the words " I don't know." namaste sheri

Welcome to UM Tracer

I have to take a different stance from the others who have posted so far. I believe the Bible to be the true divine word of God. Why? I have read it, and it makes sense. Everything in there that I have read has been true, to me at least. I have therefore come to the conclusion that the Bible is Truth.

But this is just my humble opinion.

Regards, PA

Even if the stories were not far-fetched, why should people believe them? A lot of them began orally. Somewhere along the way, someone very likely added to the story (exaggerated). They're very nice embellishments though.

Hello, to all. I am new, but I guess, I have to say that having read the Bible and other Works that are considered divinely inspired, I feel that Yelekiah's approach to those texts is much closer to mine than Paranoid Android's.

As documents that inform us about historical, political, moral and ideological beliefs that were important at the times of their writing, they are invaluable. However, these texts were written by people who were struggling to understand and give a place and purpose to their place in the Universe.

We know that all cultures had Creation Myths and Gods, sometimes pantheons of them or just a few that governed the natural forces of the world, such as wind and water and the rising and setting of the Sun.

Religion today is a refined, cultural product. It has evolved over centuries and is interpreted and re-interpreted by cultures that have an immensely greater understanding of the Universe that they inhabit than their forebears could ever have.

The point of my post?

"Mein Kampf" (Hitler), “On the Road” (Jack Kerouac), "Little Red Book" (Chairman Mao Tse-tung), " Dianetics" (L. Ron Hubbard), all these books and a multitude of others throughout history have influenced the mind of Man - and some more recent ones are gaining in popularity.

A book is a book is a book. Its only power is how it sways your mind.

Look at why John Lennon was killed........a book. Look at suicide bombers........a book. Look at G.W.B and T.B........a book.

Look at the books, read them, but don't let other peoples words rule your heart and head.

I agree. I also don't see how anyone could think it was used to control. I understand maybe just to make a nice story, but not to control. There's alot of things the authors probably wouldn't have added into the bible if it was only a mere control mechanism. =P

I just dont get how some people say the bible was written by men and thinks that means something. Heck the Bible in itself admits it was written by men. The actual premise of it is that it was God inspired and thats where the question of whether you believe its God inspired or not should come into place, everyone agrees and understands it was written by men so stop making it out like its some great revelation against the religion it isnt at all.

I personally believe that the Bible for most part was infact heavenly inspired- i do understand that it may have corruptions in it due to it being in the hands of too many in such a long time, but thats where faith kicks in.

The question isnt Was the Bible Written by men-

the true question is

Do you trust the men that wrote it?

we really have to take each book separately. if we fall into the ruse of taking "the bible" as a unit, then we are in trouble.

It's very simple really. By saying I think it's just written by men, I'm making the point that I do NOT believe the writers were divinely inspired. I thought that was pretty clear, yet your point is well taken.

TRACER

Thank you Zandore!


Tracer

I agree with everything you said, except when you say sacredness is in all things.

Tracer

You made some great points Albertus! Might I add that I suspect we shall always have people claiming to have a pipeline to the truth or rather people that believe they have discovered a new prophet. These very types provide the fuel for new organizations to grow such as Scientology. People like options and new things. The end result remains the same though and converts are buying into a group think mentality. This does not mean it has to be EVIL in nature, yet it is almost always financially driven and corrupt.

Tracer

Look around! Idiots are blowing themselves up every day with a Holy Book called the Koran as their chief reason for doing so. Their reward? 50 virgins! Their spiritual leaders
use the Koran to brainwash and manipulate their minions to do their bidding.

Tracer

Skeptics always say they can't believe anything without having proof. Well, where's the proof that it was used as a control mechanism? There isn't any.

I believe he was referring to the original use of the Bible. Certain members here claim the Bible to be a 3rd century AD (sorry, CE) forgery written by Theodosius as a means to control. As said, there'd be a lot left out of the Bible, if it was supposed to be solely a control tool, right?

But to actually answer your question, what religious texts are supposed to be for, and what selfish man has turned them into are often completely different concepts.

Regards, PA

I will let this speak for it's self.
Source

Ah, it all makes sense now. ANyone who believes the BIble is the true and inspired word of God has had it shoved down their throat by a pastor and never actually read the thing, while those who have read it are all skeptical ex-Christians.

Why didn't I see that before, it's so obvious now!

To me people that say i have "Blind Faith" for following (at least part of the Bible) my reply to them is that they are just "Blind" for not seeing truth. My defence is just as good as theirs as we dont KNOW the Bible wasnt heavenly inspired. Yet even if skeptics find the Bible not perfect, that wont deteriorate ones relationship with God- for the God and Bible are two different things. So even if you descredit the Bible a million times, a believer can still believe in God with or without the Bible- it doesn't weakens one faith one bit.

You see the light now!

Some goods points Andriod. I never said the purpose was solely as a control tool. I believe
religions and holy books of all types have been used as tools of control, manipulation and as the basis to create and shape doctrines which in turn produce group think mentalities.

Tracer

To begin with, a lot of "extremists" don't read the Koran, and a lot of their ideas are stemming from the Hadith.

That's 72 virgins. And again, that's not in the Koran, but the Hadith.

Can you spell "the Dark Ages", that is when the bible was used heavily as a control mechanism....the illiterate masses were told that the bible said this and the bible said that, just to control them....the bible is a definite control mechanism, both in the past and in the present! - Da Shadow

I have to agree there, along with the Inquisition and the Crusades. All the pope did was say the word and BLOOP-mass control.

I posted this some place here and but I forgot where so I just post it again. I think it expains the problems with revealed religions.


We Pagans have no sacred books. We do have books, lots of books, but nothing we would die for. You can't take away our truth because the truth needs no written page. The only thing we hold sacred is the Earth and she teaches me everything I need to know. That is why after 2000 years of trying to kill us off, burning our books, and trying converting us we are still here. We will be here as long as the Earth is here. SMIB

I believe this goes back to what I was saying about what religious texts are supposed to be and what selfish man has turned them into. The Dark Ages was the result solely of evil men controlling the masses. They did use the Bible, but that is not the Bible's purpose.

Like I've always said, I don't usually agree with organized religion. Organized religion is a business. They have ABN's, pay taxes (some at least), they have to submit to the governing bodies. They have doctrine's, edicts, and precepts that say what they believe, and provide specific, un-alterable interpreations of law.

Faith, personal belief on the other hand, is personal belief and is liberating, not controlling.

Just my opinion though.

Regards, PA

You're a smart guy Thanks for clearing it up.

Yep, that's Yele all right

I disagree. I suspect they all read the Koran. You know the virgin thing is weird. I would want very experienced sex partners as my reward on the other side.


Tracer

It was more than just the dark ages!
I posted this before and it is a long list.

Victims of the Christian Faith

tracer you didn't put why you don't agree i'd like your input namaste Sheri

Even if they all read the Koran, the virgins are not mentioned in the Koran anyway.

Yep, I dont believe its been mentioned in the Qur'an. I think that companions have been mentioned, you know, friends, but I dont remember the virgin thing.

Also, reading something doesnt mean following it. I can assure you there are plenty of killers who've read the Bible, or some other sacred text. It does not always dictate the life they lead. Far from actually. There's a big difference between understanding and obeying, and reading but not heeding.

God Bless.

"I disagree. I suspect they all read the Koran. You know the virgin thing is weird. I would want very experienced sex partners as my reward on the other side.
Tracer"

ahahahahahahaha, what a guy

I just want to write something on this one. Mega Skeptics are doing a great harm to civilized society. I watched the show Penn & Teller and they got the bibles and started kicking them around. Now that was sick and lame, if they don't believe in the bible then fine, make the point and that's it, don't build a theather around it.

But they talk about respect and all the moral they have, when they are kicking a text that is sacred for many people. For the religious guys, this showbiz Penn & Teller are mounting, can be compared to start kicking a photo of a mother or a father. I know some religious folks and damn, the bible is extremely sacred for them. I don't know what Penn & Teller's reaction could be if I got a book that had all the memories of their family and I started pissing on it or the like.

To my sadness, some skeptics are mounting a show against religious people, just to appear to be more "intelligent" to society. According to them, having faith or belief is just to be ignorant. Well, I do not have that sort of religious faith, but my parents do and I respect their point of view.
And I know the names of some fine scientists who established the foundations for today's science and many of them where religious people.

I am kind of sick of the atheist-ultra skeptic attitude of some people, who are making a living insulting and ridiculizing religion, just to appear more civilized and rational. For example, this guy Carl Sagan, from a point in his life, has made a living out of criticizing religion and all the "fables" it has. But take that away from him, then you leave him with nothing. Can't you see that people need to believe in something, just as the disciples of this skeptics are doing, believing in their masters (James Randi, Carl Sagan, Penn & Teller, etc etc etc)...It's incredible too see how the new skeptic cites all of Carl Sagan as reference, why? can't they come up with a better idea?

So answering the initial post of this thread, if you think the bible is lazy and etc etc etc, then don't read it or read another book. To say the Bible was done to control people, then show it to me by scientific method means. I theorize that religion was made to control people, but I cannot conclude that right away.

Just to make a point in here. Go to Google and put this on two different windows.

* Dangers of Atheism
* Dangers of Religion

on the Dangers of Atheism, there are lots of atheistic websites that defend their point of view

on the Dangers of Religion, there are lots of atheistic websites that defend their point of view

go figure

--------
P.S. Don't make a point that religion has killed many people. Read some history on Russia during Stalin's leadership and get an example of a non-religious state. Also advances on science produced the nuclear bomb which blowed up 200 000 people in 2 sec (1 sec in Hiroshima, the other in Nagasaki), global warming, decline in biodiversity,etc etc
We as a human race are damned to kill each other with or without religion. The only thing we need is some passion and we are there.

Which has led me to believe that the word virgin may have been a mistranslation for the word angel. Considering that there are 72 Kabbalistic angels, why not have 72 angels in the Hadith? A lot of texts are just inspired from other ideas to begin with.

I'm still fairly sure its companions. I mean, we all need friends