Hi all,

A little while back I came across a christian forum where some guy had posted a book he claimed God gave him that includes the pseudoepigraphic writings of Enoch and some others. I cut and paste the link for anyone interested.

THE CALLED" - by Rahman Reuben - Chapters 1 to 3 - http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/v...289&forum=35&29

I read the three chapters and found them so interesting. This guy got a lot of heat from some on that forum for mixing the Bible with these other books but what I read made me want to read the rest so I bought the book off Amazon -
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=books&v=glance

All I can say is I have read Genesis before but after reading this book it makes a lot more sense now. I also did some more research on Wickepedia about the Enoch book and found that it is included as canon in the ethiopian church but not in the western church.The Enoch book was tossed out in 326 a.d. by a Catholic counsel at Laodicea. It also says that the book of Jude was almost not included in the Bible because it quoted from this book. Kinda weird to me why a book that seems to fill in the blanks of the first couple of chapters of Genesis so well is so rejected. It has sure made me wonder why since it talks about hell so much. More rings true to me in this book of Enoch than not. I hope this guys book really takes off just for the controversy of discussion it could cause in our western church. I ran it past my pastor an boy did it get him twisted.

The book of Enoch is not dis-missed by the church, it's an a apocrypha writing. It was never included in the bible because it was not seen to be "inspired" by God or Jesus. However Enoch is one of 3 peoples in the scriptures that ascended into Heaven.

Hi Azalin',

You said "The book of Enoch is not dis-missed by the church, it's an a apocrypha writing". I know it is apochypha but what church are you saying has not dismissed it? From my research it was tossed by the Roman church and it seems the Protestant church don't even know that much about it. All I know is that when I showed it to my Baptist pastor he reacted to it with fear. He was especially afraid of the names of the fallen angels listed in the novel which was taken from the Enoch book.

I also no that it's not considered inspired by God but find it interesting that both old testament and new testament jews knew of it to the point that Jude quoted from Enoch in his epistle so it must have some value. The value for me is that when I read the parts of it that are included in the novel it just made so much more sense to me. I also saw on Wickepedia where the Books of Enoch had been dismissed by the Roman church because it was said to be written during the time of the Maccabees. In fact they said it was made up. Well if it was whoever did had some imagination and one that fits very close to canon scripture. Heres a example. In Enoch he writes that God showed him Hades and that it was divided in three parts 1) = One very bright hollow with a river of living water flowing thru it where Enoch saw Abels spirit. 2) One hot and fiery hollow were the spirits of the poor who died outside of Gods favor is placed after death. And 3) One even hotter and more fiery place where the spirits of the rich who were not in Gods favor went. As soon as I read that I instantly thought of what so many call the parable of the rich man and Lazarus and thought that's not a parable at al - but a reality that Jesus knew first hand. Like I said I think there is some merit to this Enoch book and I hope it will be reintroduced in our own time. It gives an amazing depiction of hell and that in itself is a subject that I think needs to be reintroduced to our modern disbelieving world.

You said Enoch is 1 of 3 people that was translated in heaven? I know about Enoch and Elijah - who is the 3rd?

The 3rd person ascended into heaven was Jesus. The mormon demonination do read The Book of Enoch. The Roman Catholics have not dis-regarded the book, as with the Gospel of Ruth, Book of Thomas, Book of Nicodemus and so fourth. These are books that are not included within the bible, because they did not meet all the guidelines. Guidelines such as not being distinctive, or powerful when referring to God, they had mass geological and historical errors, and of course a few of them teach heresy, such as being able to give money to pay off your sins. For things such as this, the church obviously never included them in the bible, however, they are still regarded for their inspirational views, and are still believed to of been written with some guidance by the Holy Spirit.

Specific dates and times are nice... however, I have a problem with the 6,000 year creation process as well as the 1,000 year resting day. Based on geneology, this would make the earth only thousands of years old.

I love reading about this stuff, and it gives possible explanations to the ultimate question of "why?" However, the part that bothers me is that the impact of it's meaning is far greater than some of the writings of the creation in the Bible itself. By this, the explanation of why Lucifer turned, and the knowledge of why man was allowed to fall without intervention. I figured this out prior to reading Enoch. Man was created as a being that would by it's own choice choose God over all other things. God already knew what would happen.

If the reasoning behind why it was thrown out as explained is true, then it doesn't make any sense as to why it wasn't included. There are too many contradictions in theories surrounding it's existence and it's absense from the Bible for me to fully trust it's authenticity and whether or not it's writings are in fact true. Believing in the Bible, I find it is completely tangible, but the reality is that it's meaning doesn't provide further guidance in life for me than what I already have and know.

Was this supposed to be part of the New or Old Testament?

According to information found in the dead sea scrolls, The Book of Enoch would of been created between the new and old testaments. However, I would suggest it would fit best in the old testament.

Azalin,

Ya know I thought you were talking about Jesus. I don't include him in the same ways as Enoch and Elijah because both were actual men who were taken up by God before they died. Jesus on the other hand preexisted as the second person of the Trinity and altho became a man died before he was taken up to heaven.

I can see where the RC may have not totally abandoned Enoch. And the Mormon church at least by my protestant pastor is not concidered a true christian church. As I said before protestants seem to not know about the book of Enoch at all or if the do they don't even want to talk about it. As I said the dude who wrote the novel I posted about caught some serious flack over on that other forum by some christian bible scholar from England. I mean to the point of where the English dude was just plain rude I thought. Now as for the other books you mentioned I did some research on them too and they are concidered gnostic. I watched a very interesting show on the history channel called Banned From The Bible about all these books and it was pointed out how these gospels of Thomas and Mary etc. went against the teachings of Matthew - Mark - Luke and John. So I have no trouble dismissing them. But the books of Enoch and Jubilees after reading that novel and then them I don't dismiss so well. These two books ring of some truth to me especially that they have the same hell fire and abyssing terminology as the Revelation. And then again the fact that Jude quoted from the Enoch book and that quote is now part of canon scripture.

I'm glad for the internet and sites like this because if I had to rely on the people I know to discuss this it would not happen. It does not scare me to talk about this subject or to learn about it because I believe God has not given me the spirit of fear. I also believe that God is a rewarder of anyone who diligently seeks Him and knowledge about Him.

Thanks for your replies I appreciate it.

Hi Knightmeir,

Yes a lot of people have trouble with the 1,000 years as one day. I don't because scripture says as much in Peter and Christ reign on earth after Armegeddon is 1,000 years.

See this is another thing that has totally fascinated me with the Enoch book and the Jubilees book as they both speak of 1,000 year creative days. Research tells me that someone wrote Enoch and Jubiless down almost 400 years before Christ came and even a little farther before Peter said that a 1,000 years is as one day with God. The novel I posted about is really amazing to me in this aspect because the author when he introduces Enoch in chapter 5 runs this 1,000 years as one day timeline all thru his book. He begins to tell how many thousands of years have passed when Enoch is born and then how many thousands of years it took to get to Jacobs name being changed to Israel. And thru the whole process the author keeps telling how old Adam would have been if he had not sinned and how long the prophet Enoch was in heaven as history passed.

I love reading this stuff too and am glad that I've been introduced to it. I'm equally glad that I was introduced to the Enoch books thru the novel because I would have been lost had I read the actual books first. The novel wraps Enoch and Jubilees around KJV scripture and to me makes it live. All the Bible charachters seem to come to life. For me this novel based on Enoch made it plain to me why satan flip moded. I find it interesting that you'd already figured that out. But I tell you it filled my head with so many questions about God and His motives for things. For instance why did He create Lucifer more beautiful than all other angels and then tell him to be careful of pride?

You said that you had figured out "Man was created as a being that would by it's own choice choose God over all other things. God already knew what would happen." But see to me the exact opposite happened. Adam did not choose God the Creator, he choose Eve the created. I used to get into trouble by saying in my christian circle that it seemed to me God seemed to have set Adam up. First God creates Adam and tells him about the trees. Why did God have to plant such trees in the first place? Then God brings all the animals on earth before Adam to name them while in the meanwhile these same animals are procreating and its obvious to Adam the male animals have a counterpart he doesn't have. Then much later God lays Adam down in sleep pulls out a rib and creates woman. Then when Adam awakes what does he do? He exclaims AT LAST! - bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. So when it came time for satan to topple the man who does he go after to make Adam fall. His AT LAST! I take the lesson of Job and so don't question God to far but it still seems to me that God has a very interesting way of doing things.

You also said, "If the reasoning behind why it was thrown out as explained is true, then it doesn't make any sense as to why it wasn't included. There are too many contradictions in theories surrounding it's existence and it's absense from the Bible for me to fully trust it's authenticity and whether or not it's writings are in fact true. Believing in the Bible, I find it is completely tangible, but the reality is that it's meaning doesn't provide further guidance in life for me than what I already have and know."

Ya know I have no idea why Enoch is not included in todays canon. And to tell you the truth had I not found out about it I would still believe in God and His Bible. But now that I've found it I find Enoch to have bolstered my faith even more because now I have a better understanding of not only Genesis but the Revelation as well and 2 Peter and the book of Jude. Enoch brings the doctrine of hell home by telling why it was created in the first place - what its like - and who it's reserved for.

You finished by asking "Was this supposed to be part of the New or Old Testament?" I think Enoch is part of the Old Testament by way of Moses using it's history in the book of Genesis. The Enoch book as well as the Jubilee book has the same opening history of creation as Genesis. And at least a snippet of the Enoch book is a part of the New Testament;

Jude.1
14 - And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints 15 - To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

I have been talking to everybody I know about this book of Enoch and The Called. I find it both fascinating and exciting tho that's not the same response I get from most. Seems to me so many christians nowadays are just fat - dumb and happy to be in what I call complacent christianity. If it ain't about prosperity nobody wants to hear. My prayer is that God wakes His church up by any means necessary. Hell is real and thats what this Enoch book has really impressed on me.

Knightmeir thanks for your reply as well!

The thing with the book of Enoch, is that it goes against God's creation of the world. It's falls mainly away from Genesis. Jude does talk about Enoch, I would assume because it was still a popular writing, not because he believed it's authenticity. He talked about the end of the world, or the judgement of the wicked. A person may not believe in Revelations, but still quote it to get a point across, I beleive this was the case, personally.

If Enoch did in fact exist, the writings are in the dead sea scrolls, which would of been recorded after the great flood of Noah. Therefore whatever was written, was never of course written by Enoch himself. In this case a lot could of been made up to go according to his life, which I would assume would be another reason it was never authentic and included in the bible.

Azalin,

This is good. Your posts are making me dig deeper and refine.

I was wrong in saying that the writings of Enoch followed the same outline of creation in Genesis. In fact in going back and checking Enoch does not entail creation at all unless I've overlooked something that I hope you can show me. Its the book of Jubilees that list creation. In fact it covers these topics at its very beginning;

- Prologue
- God's Revelation to Moses on Mount Sinai
- God commands the Angel to write (i. 27-29).
- The Angel dictates to Moses the Primæval History: the Creation of the World and Institution of the - -
- Sabbath (ii. 1-33)
- Paradise and the Fall (iii. 1-35)
- etc

Heres the link I use for this book;

The Book of Jubilees
translated by R. H. Charles
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/jub/index.htm

The Book of Jubilees, probably written in the 2nd century B.C.E., is an account of the Biblical history of the world from creation to Moses. It is divided into periods ('Jubilees') of 49 years. For the most part the narrative follows the familiar account in Genesis, but with some additional details such as the names of Adam and Eve's daughters, and an active role for a demonic entity called 'Mastema'. The anonymous author had a preoccupation with calendar reform, and uses Jubilees as a platform for proposing a solar calendar of 364 days and 12 months; this would have been a radical departure from the Jewish Calendar, which is lunar-based. There are also a couple of messianic, apocalyptic passages, although quite a bit less than the Book of Enoch.

The only complete version of Jubilees is in Ethiopian, although large fragments in Greek, Latin and Syriac are also known. It is believed that it was originally written in Hebrew. If at times one gets the impression that you are reading a first draft of Genesis, you are in good company. R.H. Charles, the translator, a distinguished academic Biblical scholar, concluded that Jubilees was a version of the Pentateuch, written in Hebrew, parts of which later became incorporated into the earliest Greek version of the Jewish Bible, the Septuagint.

--John Bruno Hare, July 22, 2004


Azalin you said, "The thing with the book of Enoch, is that it goes against God's creation of the world. It's falls mainly away from Genesis."

I've went back thru the Enoch writings listed below and again cannot find where Enoch goes against creation because I can't find where he talks about it. Can you please show me where this occurs in his writings?


The Book of Enoch Translated by R.H. Charles [1917]
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/index.htm
http://reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch01-60.htm

The Book of the Secrets of Enoch
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/fbe/index.htm#section_002


The Pseudepigrapha - Cutting Edge Ministries
http://pws.prserv.net/cuttingedge/Psuedo.htm


You continued, "Jude does talk about Enoch, I would assume because it was still a popular writing, not because he believed it's authenticity. He talked about the end of the world, or the judgement of the wicked. A person may not believe in Revelations, but still quote it to get a point across, I beleive this was the case, personally."

I could go along with this comfortably if it were only left up to a human Jude but scripture says that ALL scripture is inspired of God and so that would include this little snippet of Enoch in Jude. This tells me that God Himself knew at least this snippet of Enoch to be true as I also believe Jude believed it also. So true in fact that He included it in His book.

You continued, "If Enoch did in fact exist, the writings are in the dead sea scrolls, which would of been recorded after the great flood of Noah. Therefore whatever was written, was never of course written by Enoch himself. In this case a lot could of been made up to go according to his life, which I would assume would be another reason it was never authentic and included in the bible."

I totally agree that whatever was written 400 years before Christ during Israels Maccabean period was not written by the hand of Enoch himself altho when you read the book itself it states that it initially was for Enoch was the first scribe. In fact coming to some 366 books which according to the book God said he was to give to the children of men pre flood. Then further down the line (according to another apochraphal writing I have written myself a note to get and share with you tomorrow) God gave Enochs books to Abraham before his leaving Ur of the Chaldees which puts them anew into the world post flood. If ancient Hebrew times were anything like ancient Africa there was a lot of history passed down by word of mouth until such a time as men became learned to the point of many gaining literacy to put word history into books. I think this may have happened with the Enochian writings for as I said prior they compliment way to much of the Revelation for them to have been totally conjured up by man. And the way the Enoch book portrays satan and his demons in such negative light I don't think satan had any hand in its creation. As Christ said a house divided cannot stand.

I thank God for this posting back and forth with you Azalin. God Bless you!

I do apologize wise_steward, Enoch's teachings do not go against Gods creation, but they introduce a lot more to the imagination. If Satan was the one that tempted Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, then who is Azazel ? Many people associate this Angel as Satan, or Lucifer when talking about the Watchers in the Book of Enoch. This cannot be true seeing as Lucifer and Satan would of then, had to of fallen AFTER the creation of man, which is not possible due to demonology roots. You of course then need to believe Azazel was another powerful Seraphim that was prisoned by God and the other angels. If so, he made quite an impact on human life, and to think he would not of been mentioned by any other prophet would be strange. To go further on that, no where else in the bible does it say that Angels taught men how to create steel, use makeup , or take part in the enlightenment of astrology.

The fact that Jude does believe Enoch is true can be debated. Although the Book of Enoch is considered "inspired " it is beleived it is not entirely inspired by God himself. This is something that was decided by the church, and hence why it was never included in the bible. As it stands, Revelations was BARELY allowed in the bible as well, it was taken out and then re-added before.

Certain things Enoch talks about, especially in the Watchers are not re-counted by any other prophet, or disciples, especially Jesus. Jude is really the only person to speak of Enoch and his teachings, which gives me further proof of his invalid reasonings.

I was actually reading the Book of Enoch this morning. And it's true that it fits well with Genesis and mentions Cain and Abel (Abel calling out). Very interesting read. I was told that the book of Enoch was in the Roman Catholic Bible. What's fascinating about Enoch is that it is an eyewitness account, unlike books in the New Testament. They are all written in third person when they should be written in first in my opinion. God in this text seems very self-centered and it changes where he lives as well.

Hi Azalin,

You wrote -
"I do apologize wise_steward, Enoch's teachings do not go against Gods creation, but they introduce a lot more to the imagination."


No problem - I'm just glad to have you to talk to about this. As I said this is good. Your posts are making me dig deeper and refine so that I'll be better informed about Enoch etc.


You wrote -
"If Satan was the one that tempted Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, then who is Azazel ? Many people associate this Angel as Satan, or Lucifer when talking about the Watchers in the Book of Enoch. This cannot be true seeing as Lucifer and Satan would of then, had to of fallen AFTER the creation of man, which is not possible due to demonology roots."


First let me say that I think it would be good for you to get The Called book. I'm glad that I read it first before tackling these actual apochrapha and epigrapha books. It's like the novel takes the afore mentioned books material and places them where they shoulg go between the KJ text. I'm telling you this novel is nothing short of amazing to me. After reading it I went and bought the actual entire volume of the translated dead sea scrolls by R H Charles. I did this so that I could mark it up and make notes in it in my comparisons to the Holy Bible. And also so that I could read all the foot notes which I find so informative. I got it before me now so I'm gonna be giving chapter and verses from it and foot-note info ok.

Now let me see if I'm correctly understanding your post;

1) - Ok first about Azazel - In my study of Enoch it's impossible for Azazel to be Satan because in Enoch 6 it says that Azazel was under the command of Semjaza. And we know that Satan is suprem commander of the entire third of the angels of heaven that fell with him. Azazel is listed in Enoch as tenth in commmand of the 200 angels that descended on earth and put on flesh.

Then if we go to Enoch 10 it says that God commanded Raphael to bind and abyss Azazel just before the falling of the flood. The footnotes actually say that Azazel is the first fallen angel punished in a abyss in the earth called Dudael near where Jerusalem is today. And that he's in this abyss all by himself. So we all know that Azazel cannot be Satan because Satan altho cast out of heaven is still free and according to scripture will not be abyssed himself for 1,000 years until after the battle of Armageddon - spoken of in the Revelation. We also know that Satan still has access before Gods throne to accuse the brethren which is evident by Jobs experience.

2) - Now about your comment about Satan having to have fallen after the creation of man. Are you saying that you believe Satan and the third to have fallen from grace with God before Adam was created? Well why Satan fell is something that has been cleared up to my satisfaction after reading The Called and then reading The Book of Adam & Eve. In it it states by Satans own explanation to Adam why and how he sinned against God owing to his pride not allowing him to serve a younger being than himself;


THE BOOK OF ADAM & EVE
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/adamnev.htm

xii
1 And with a heavy sigh, the devil spake: 'O Adam! all my hostility, envy, and sorrow is for thee, since it is for thee that I have been expelled from my glory, which I possessed in the heavens

2 in the midst of the angels and for thee was I cast out in the earth.' Adam answered, 'What dost

3 thou tell me? What have I done to thee or what is my fault against thee? Seeing that thou hast received no harm or injury from us, why dost thou pursue us?'

xiii
1 The devil replied, 'Adam, what dost thou tell me? It is for thy sake that I have been hurled

2 from that place. When thou wast formed. I was hurled out of the presence of God and banished from the company of the angels. When God blew into thee the breath of life and thy face and likeness was made in the image of God, Michael also brought thee and made (us) worship thee in the sight of God; and God the Lord spake: Here is Adam. I have made thee in our image and likeness.'

xiv
1 And Michael went out and called all the angels saying:

2 'Worship the image of God as the Lord God hath commanded.' And Michael himself worshipped first; then he called me and said: 'Worship the image of God

3 the Lord.' And I answered, 'I have no (need) to worship Adam.' And since Michael kept urging me to worship, I said to him, 'Why dost thou urge me? I will not worship an inferior and younger being (than I). I am his senior in the Creation, before he was made was I already made. It is his duty to worship me.'

xv
1,2 When the angels, who were under me, heard this, they refused to worship him. And Michael saith, 'Worship the image of God, but if thou wilt not worship him, the Lord God will be wrath

3 with thee.' And I said, 'If He be wrath with me, I will set my seat above the stars of heaven and will be like the Highest.'

xvi
1 And God the Lord was wrath with me and banished me and my angels from our glory; and on

2 thy account were we expelled from our abodes into this world and hurled on the earth. And

3 straightway we were overcome with grief, since we had been spoiled of so great glory. And we

4 were grieved when we saw thee in such joy and luxury. And with guile I cheated thy wife and caused thee to be expelled through her (doing) from thy joy and luxury, as I have been driven out of my glory.

xvii
1 When Adam heard the devil say this, he cried out and wept and spake: 'O Lord my God, my life is in thy hands. Banish this Adversary far from me, who seeketh to destroy my soul, and give

2,3 me his glory which he himself hath lost.' And at that moment, the devil vanished before him. But Adam endured in his penance, standing for forty days (on end) in the water of Jordan.


Now this may not be a valid explanation to many but it just rings so clear in my spirit that Satan would have totally flipped out to being assigned as servant to a being he concidered far below his status.



You wrote;
"You of course then need to believe Azazel was another powerful Seraphim that was prisoned by God and the other angels. If so, he made quite an impact on human life, and to think he would not of been mentioned by any other prophet would be strange. To go further on that, no where else in the bible does it say that Angels taught men how to create steel, use makeup , or take part in the enlightenment of astrology."



Yes according to Enoch Azazel did make a horrible impact on the pre flood world but so did other fallen angels. And I don't find it any odder that Azazel or any of the other fallen angels are not mentioned by name by any of the prophets as I do that Gen. 6 just glosses over all this history that I think many of the Apochrapha books supply.

Below I list Rev 9 where 5 abyssed angels are loosed during the tribulation period. Like the writer of The Called I to now believe that these 5 are from the original 200 wicked angels that God abyssed prior to the flood. Now if you notice the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon is not mentioned by any other prophets - or anywhere else in the bible either. I also find it interesting to note that only these 200 of the third of the angels that fell with Licifer lost their freedom long ago because of their gross sin. The rest of the fallen angels along with Satan are still loose even today to wreak havoc on this earth during the Tribulation period. Then after that they too will be abyssed.


Rev.9
[1] And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
[2] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
[3] And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
[4] And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
[5] And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
[6] And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
[7] And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
[8] And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
[9] And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
[10] And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
[11] And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

[13] And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
[14] Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
[15] And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.



You wrote -
"The fact that Jude does believe Enoch is true can be debated. Although the Book of Enoch is considered "inspired " it is beleived it is not entirely inspired by God himself. This is something that was decided by the church, and hence why it was never included in the bible. As it stands, Revelations was BARELY allowed in the bible as well, it was taken out and then re-added before."


Yes you're right about the Revelation almost not making the cut. On the History channels Books Banned From The Bible it stated that it was because the Revelation was so horrific that early church fathers just couldn't believe that the same God that so loved the world could be so wrathful. That's the same knock they had against Enoch and his depictions of hell with all its instruments of cruel torture there.

R H Charles states in his notes that the book of Enoch has more influence in the New Testament - especially in the Revelation - than any other Apochraphal book. Then he list 2 pages of examples. This is very interesting to me.

Thanks again for your replies! It's cool to have someone to go back & forth with on this.

Blessings!

Hi Yelekiah,

You wrote -
"God in this text seems very self-centered and it changes where he lives as well."

Ha! - ha! - This if funny because I thought the exact same thing. But then I thought the God who created this can be whatever He wants to be - JOB chapters 38 & 39

HUBBLE WALL PAPER
http://www.skyimagelab.com/hubphot.html

http://hubblesite.org/gallery/wallpaper/

Peace and blessings.

The points I have illustrated are the reasons Enoch is not in the bible. Many people believe Enoch as the truth, but the church does not recongnize it as an inspired writing by God. There are parts I believe on Enoch, and their are parts I believe with Revelations, but both have riddles I suggest that can be taken other ways. For instance, I do not believe angels will be let loose, and will be flying around destroying the world. However, they may inspire other men to do such work for them.

The book of Enoch was never written by himself, only by other followers hundreds of years later. Personally, it would be hard enough for me to write about myself a hundred years from now, let alone the life of someone else. And to capture words said and emotions felt, it would make the task at hand that much harder. Things could of been exaggerated immensly by the other writers, and this is why I don't give as much credibility to Enoch as some say it should have. It's hard enough believe the disciples wrote about the life of Jesus 40 - 80 years after his death, and capture all of his actions, and the words he spoke. I would assume it would be possible through the work of the Holy Spirit, and that is my personal belief, but the author(s) of Enoch are not inspired by the Holy Spirit. I would only assume the book would be a parable, a teaching metaphor, and once again, this being why Jude did reference it.

Hi Azalin,

I've taken in all your points and understand your reasonings behind your conclusions. Thanks again for this opportunity of sharing views.

Blessings!

Right, a synthesis in my opinion based on the text. A duality, and then later on in the New Testament, a "triple personality". He blesses, he curses, he creates light, he creates darkness, evil and so on.

In my opinion the symbols in Enoch and Revelation are very similar.

Let me just say this:

Zacharia Sitchin ~ "The 12th Planet" and "The Wars of Gods and Men"

You will discover why the book of Enoch gets ignored by mainstream religion.....