Does the Bible promote inequality and discrimination against women?


Sheri Berri shall be debating that the Bible does promote these things.
Paranoid Android shall be arguing against it.

This will be a 1v1 formal debate.
An Introduction, 5 bodily posts and a conclusion from each participant.
No Flaming, bad manners or profantities will not be tolerated. Please make sure you quote ALL your sources!

Please be aware that:

There is a point deduction for debaters who fail to make a post within the 7 day time frame. The deductions will be 2 points for every day the participant fails to post after the 7 days.

This is to ensure that debates continue in a timely fashion. If for any reason you cannot post within the 7 days, please ensure that you let myself or Aztec know to avoid having the points taken off your debate.

If, however the participant does not then attempt to make a post for upto 2 weeks after the 7 day rule has started an immediate disqualification will occur.

*Sherri Berri you will start the debate.

Good Luck and have fun!

Lottie

Introducton:


Does the bible promote Inequality and discrimination towards women?


Somewhere today a muslim women will not be able to leave her home without a blood male relative. That same women will not be seen in public without head to toe covering her entire body. To ensure that she does this severe conssequences are built into these laws, she will either be stoned or flogged in a public place as soon as the infraction is discovered.


In Islam a womens testimony is worth half that of a man.

"For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is in the Image and glory of god; but woman is in the glory of man.
"For man is not from woman, but woman is from man. "Nor was man created for the woman, but the woman for the man."

Taken straight from the pages of the New Testament.

My friend the use of discrimination is built into our language, you may have noticed that when subjects of 'god' come up one rarely uses he/she interchangeably. NO! Humanity
has used He, God is a male and so by inference, males are superior to females.

Men beleive this and many men have convinced themselves that they aren't really superior
they are just stating with their actions and decisions regarding women, is just really concern for her, and any sensitivity shemay have to this is dismissed and she is told women have different roles then men. It is Under this pretense. women are still being exploited and mistreated now in the new millineim. It is claimed that 'god' has assigned men and women their roles and it claims that because these roles have been challenged by women and becasue of her wanting equality and fairness, the same as a mans this is what is causing the problems we are having as a humankind.

Every women once in her life has been told" if only she would listen and do as she is told we wouldn't have these problems. By a male that has said he loves her.

According to the bible 'god really meant that women were created to be inferior to men"

Somewhere a woman will not recieve an education, or be allowed to work. Somewhere a womens genitals will be mutilated, Somewhere a woman will feel the pangs of discrimination by a man who says he loves her and there will be an unspoken agreement that she will remember her place which is not as an equal..... Somewhere today a woman will be told this is gods word......


Yes IMO the bible advocates the discrimination and Inequality of women ......Namaste sheri

Introduction

Thank you Sheri, you make many interesting points. Indeed it is sad to see that women are being discriminated against in today’s society (especially in Muslim cultures), in direct contradiction to the Bible’s teachings. Of course, Muslim’s do not get their beliefs primarily from the Bible, but from the Koran - and is quite irrelevant to the debate at hand.

It is most certainly true though that people throughout the ages, and even today have unfairly discriminated against women. Patriarchal societies have twisted the Bible to suit their personal needs, ignoring the Bible, and taking only the bits they need to raise themselves above women. Throughout this debate, I shall endeavour to dispel many of the myths surrounding the Bible and its treatment of women, by examining some of the oft quoted, but misunderstood passages relating to women, and through discussing case studies of important women in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

It will become clear that far from promoting inequality amongst women, the Bible shows the Truth, that women and men are equal, not one sex smarter or stronger or more important than the other, but both equal. Different, yes! But equal.

Of course, the Bible is not just a stagnant book to be looked at 2000 years or more in the past – therefore I shall also examine the changing roles of women in the latter half of the 20th Century, through to the present day, and discuss some possible implications that lie therein.

Good luck, Sheri – I wish you the best in this debate. Over to you.

PA I also thankyou for your gracious invite to debate such a important topic.


I'd like to address the relevance of The Qu'ran, if you wouldn't mind. discrimination and inequality towards women is a global epidemic, The common thread is that each sacred scripture regardless of the religion is thought to be the WORD OF GOD. it is interperated literally and thought to be infallable.

The Qu'ran is very much like the Christian Old testament in its treatment of women. I see no seperation or difference by borders or by bibles. Throughout its pages, the Bible, and the Qu'ran are consistent in its treatment of women. This is sadly the kindest thing that can be said about one half of the population, God is consistent. From start to finish, the Bible is unwavering in its opinion of women as INFERIOR AND UNWORTHY POSSESIONS.

Every 15 seconds a women is beaten in the United States, Because of laws such as these.

Wives must submit to their husbands "in every thing" as though they were Christ. "For the husband is the head of the wife." 5:22-24

Wives must reverence their husband. 5:33
Colossians

Jesus tells Mary Magdalene not to touch him because he hasn't yet ascended -- as if the touch of a woman would defile him and somehow prevent him from ascending into heaven. 20:17 Jesus compares the kingdom of heaven to ten virgins who went to meet their bridegroom. 25:1
Mark

Jesus shows disrespect for his mother and family by asking, "Who is my mother, or my brethren?" when he is told that his family wants to speak with him. 3:31-34

Jesus will reward men who abandon their wives and families. 10:29-30

In the last days God will make things especially rough on pregnant women. 13:17 Luke

Even Mary had to be "purified" after giving birth to Jesus. Was she defiled by giving birth to the Son of God? 2:22

Males are holy to God, not females. 2:23

Peter and his partners (James and John) abandon their wives and children to follow Jesus. 5:11

Jesus tells Mary Magdalene not to touch him because he hasn't yet ascended Romans 20:17

Paul explains that "the natural use" of women is to act as sexual objects for the pleasure of men. 1:27

1 Corinthians

Paul says "the head of the woman is the man," meaning that the women are to be subordinate to men. 11:3

Men are made in the image of God; women in the image of men. Women were created from and for men. 11:7-9

Women are commanded by Paul to be silent in church and to be obedient to men. He further says that "if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in church." 14:34-35


Ephesians
Wives must submit to their husbands "in every thing" as though they were Christ. "For the husband is the head of the wife." 5:22-24

Wives must reverence their husband. 5:33

Colossians
Wives, according to Paul, must submit themselves to their husbands. 3:18

1 Timothy
Women are to dress modestly, "with shamefacedness" -- "not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array." 2:9

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 2:11-12

Men are superior to women since Adam was made before, and sinned after, Eve. But even though women are inferior to men, they shouldn't be discouraged because they shall "be saved in childbearing." 2:14-15

"Real widows are "desolate" and pray "night and day." But those widows that experience pleasure are "dead while [they] live." 5:5-6

Revelations

Jezebel (whom God had thrown off a wall, trampled by horses, and eaten by dogs [2 Kg.9:33-37]) is further reviled by John, saying "that woman Jezebel" taught and seduced God's "servants to commit fornication." 2:20

Jesus will "cast her [Jezebel] into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her." 2:22

Only 144,000 celibate men will be saved. (Those who were not "defiled with women.")
14:4-1



PA. I will compromise: I do see a very miniscule change towards women in the New Testament, it does mention Mary as the mother of jesus. But beyond that I see very little movement towards equality or the erradication of discrimination. it is rampant still to this day.

Material which is used to promote the restriction of a person's or group's human rights and
Material which is used to promote the ridicule or hatred of a person or group,is considered to ADVOCATE HATRED.


The Bible, The Qu'ran, The Bhagavad Gita, The Torah, The Book of Mormon and the Pali Canon are said to be perfect, Magniicent, correct down to the last word, breathtaking in their wisdom, they are considered the "Gold standard" of morals in which ever culture it they are prominent.


BUT MOST OF ALL THEY ARE SAID TO BE COMPLETELY AND LITERALLY ACCURATE............


I turn the floor over to you PA

Post 1 – Women in the Old Testament

Unlike today, the original manuscripts of the Bible were not broken into artificial segments that we know of today as Chapters and Verses. They were continuous writings, letters, poems, wisdom sayings, prophecies and more. This artificial break today provides us easy reference to Bible passages, but also makes it eminently easy to take one verse as fact, without looking at the passages around it in any way. That is what Sheri has done in the post above. Taken verses here and there and not looked at the context surrounding those passages.

Over the next two posts, I shall dispel these misquotes of hers, and take it a step further – not just looking at the theory, but the practice; using case studies of how women were actually perceived by God.

Note: all passages quoted are from the English Standard Version of the Bible – widely regarded as the most literal translation of the Bible available

The Old Testament!

The first thing you notice about God is that He is referred to as a “He”. Sheri Berri touched on this in her opening post:
I had noticed, as a matter of fact. God, while being referred to as a male is in fact Spirit. He is not human. He is constantly attributed with divine qualities – omnipresence, omnipotence, eternal, perfect. I would surmise that God is neither female nor male, and it is tradition that dictates God as He. Mariners refer to their ships as “she”. We all know boats are not women, yet it is so.

The second, and most often quoted passage in the Old Testament used to propagate women’s inequality is found in Genesis 3:16, when God is laying down punishment for disobeying Him (or her or it if you prefer) by eating from the tree…… you all know the story. Click here if you wish to read the whole Genesis 3.

To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." – Genesis 3:16

However, to use this passage makes two mistakes. The lesser of these is that it ignores the very next verse. That man is punished just as harshly as woman. It is by no means an unequal punishment.

And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." – verse 17-19

The more important aspect that people fail to understand is that this IS a punishment. As punishment for disobeying God, God did this. So, logically would this not mean that this is NOT HOW THINGS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE? I shall discuss this further in my third post, when I show how men and women are all equal under Christ, not one superior to the other, but at this point I will suffice it to say that a punishment obviously means it shouldn’t be that way, right! That the way things should be are exactly opposite to how they are described.

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Now, to look at some actual women in the Old Testament:

Rahab – Probably the most striking case in the Old Testament. Not only was Rahab a woman *shock*, but she was also a prostitute (a profession frowned upon, and far from Godly). To top it all off, she wasn’t even an Israelite. Rahab really had the cards stacked against her. Yet far from being condemned, she was commended.

For those that don’t know the story (click here for details) Rahab helped the Israelite spies hide from certain death, as the city patrols chased them. Being a foreigner, a prostitute and a woman, you’d think she would be considered the lowest of the low. How wrong you would be to think that. Shortly thereafter, while the entire town of Jericho was plundered, Rahab and her family were spared – And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the LORD for destruction. Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall live – Joshua 6:17 full story).

Abigail – King David, while fleeing from Saul (this was before David became King), came to the house of Nabal, a very rich man, who could provide David and his men with food and supplies and more. However, Nabal was “harsh and badly behaved” (1 Samuel 25:3). David was refused! However, in a move that is hardly submissive, Nabal’s wife, Abigail secretly provided David with the supplies he needed. An unequal, intolerant of women society painting the man as the bad guy???? And the woman as the good guy! Unless the Bible is not promoting inequality or discrimination......! (story source)

Esther – Esther is a unique book. It is the only book in the Bible where God is not mentioned at all. Written during the Israelite’s Exile, it document’s Esther’s rise to be Queen, and her steely resolve keeping the Nation of Israel together and whole.

Ruth – The story of Ruth is essentially a Love story. But overriding that, is the heroine, Ruth – a wilful, headstrong and loyal woman, who broke many cultural norm’s. Far from being condemned, she was the heroine in a story that ultimately led (as with all love stories) to her happily ever after-ing with Boaz.

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As you can clearly see, women in the Old Testament were far from the unequal, less than man, people that is being depicted. My next post will deal with women’s place in the New Testament. Your turn, Sheri

Thankyou PA

WOMAN IS INFERIOR TO MAN, echo throught the pages of the Old and New Testament, It is said over and over this is God's Will. this is Gods word."
THIS 'GOD' IS KILLING THE ESSENCE OF THE FEMALE.
What follower's of jesus could ignore or turn a blind eye to the injustice that has been created by laws that have only created inequality and discrimination and abuse to all women???

Women so stricken with fear and subservience they would be sold to a king who is being made to feel better because another women has refused to be his sexual object, this turns out to be Esther, she is a virgin she couldn't be more than 12 or 13 years old in those days ,later she is begged to help the jewish people and she refuses until she is threatend with they would kill her father the same people who are her people. What choice did she have??? she put her neck on the line for her family, , Why would a woman let alone a person have to ever make that choice????


What woman would be so terrrifed she would be willing to leave her daughter In-laws behind becasue she has been destroyed by 'god' and doesn't want to bring his wrath on these girls Naomi, her daughter in law Ruth begged her to take them with her. I wiped away tears when i read this......


Judith a woman who wilingly actually suggested to use her beauty and sexuality to bring down the enemy , she beheaded the Assyrian leader herself, what group of men would sacrafice a female? Ones that saw her as worthless and valueless, yet this did nothing either to bring the end to hatred this story just further illustrates the disdain man has for women.

The tradgedy is these remarkable women for all their great acts of valor and compassion and selflessness did absoulutley NOTHING to bring equality and the end to discrimination and the end of hatred for all women.

What hope do we have when we have scripture after scripture religion after religion insisting this is Gods word this is the way 'god wants it????The bible is Infallable "Many a Christain has said I feel as if 'god' is speaking directly to me when i read the bible"


Here are more amazing ladies of the bible who gave in vain for the end of hatred that would never come and too this day Discrimination is felt by a woman every minute somewhere in the world.

. Joshua 2:1-16 describes how Rahab, a prostitute, hid two Israelite spies and saved their lives by misdirecting the soldiers.

In Judges 4 and 5, Deborah is described as both a Judge of Israel and as the leader of the army
.
In 1 Samuel 19:11-13, David's first wife, Michal, tricked soldiers and engineered David's escape.

In 2 Kings 22:14-19 and 2 Chron 34:23-7, the prophetess Huldah was asked to validate the book found in the Temple -- presumably the book of Deuteronomy. She spoke "....as the voice of God; 'Thus says the LORD' ...Jeremiah and Zephaniah were in Judah also at the time but there is no record of their having been consulted." 1


MAYBE SOME OF THE WORDS IN MANY OF THE HOLY BOOKS WERE NEVER APPLICABLE iN ANY CIVILIZED SOCIETY


You may have the floor PA

Post 2 – Women in the New Testament

Before I begin discussing the New Testament, I would like to address Sheri’s last post:

I’m not really sure, Sheri what point you are trying to make here. That Naomi cares enough about her daughter in laws that she would want the best for them, regardless of her personal feelings says much. The loyalty shown by Ruth says even more. This does not condemn women, but lauds them.

This goes for every other Old Testament woman that you quoted above. I understand why you posted them, trying to make them appear as strong women futilely campaigning for women's status, however............ the Bible, written in a blatantly patriarchal society, that supposedly oppresses half their population (the female half), far from depicting women as evil, inferior, unequal and Less than, it portrays them as strong, brave, loyal, heroic, courageous, smart, compassionate, loyal (oops, said that one already ). Have you conceded then that the Old Testament does indeed portray women as strong, independant and dare I say it, equal

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New Testament.

As before, I will begin by dispelling some common misconceptions regarding Bible passages in the New Testament.

The most common passage used is Ephesians 5:22-24 – Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Saviour. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. The critics have used this consistently to show the Bible discriminates women. "So, if the man comes and beats his wife, then it’s ok, the woman has to submit?" they all ask. Then they conclude that this was put in by oppressive man in order to make woman submit to him and he could do whatever he wished, own her like property.

And at first glance, it certainly looks bleak for the women, doesn’t it? Except for 2 things. Similar to Genesis 3, they conveniently forget to mention the verses straight after this: Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her – verse 25. The passage goes into quite some detail about the husband’s Loving role within the relationship – here’s a link to Ephesians 5:22-33 if you’re interested.

The question that pops to mind immediately is How can a man be Loving if he beats his wife? It does not make sense. And if the man is not honouring his part of the arrangement, should the woman have to also? By no means!

More important than this however, is that this isn’t simply, wives submit, husband’s love. It’s targeted to a very specific form of love, that is to say, the same Love that Christ showed the church

Note: by church, it is not meaning any kind of organization or building! This was written long before there was such a thing as Catholicism or Anglicanism or any other such current religion. Until recently, the term “church” has always meant Body of believers – so those who were followers of Jesus were a church.

Husbands, Love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her – Christ died for the church. It is not the intent of this debate to preach anything, but it must be said that the ultimate point of Jesus’ life was that he died for those who believe in him. And men are called upon to have that same kind of sacrificing Love for their wives. To give themselves up for her if need be, not to oppress her. Moreover, the body of believers is referred to in the feminine: Christ…… gave himself up for her. Men.... referring to the collective of themselves....... in the feminine??????

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord – Christians submit to Christ every day, do they not? They submit to the Lord. This IN NO WAY makes them inferior beings, or somehow less than others. This includes men as well as women by the way. CHristians submit, and are not considered inferior.

Women are different to men. Both sexes have different roles within a relationship. And yes, when abused, those roles can lead to oppression, abuse and discrimination. However, it is clear that this was never the intended purpose of this passage, but rather to give guidelines for a loving, godly relationship.

In her first body post, Sheri also brings up Ephesians 5:33 - Wives must reverence their husband. This ignores half the verse (again) – This is how that passage reads in its entirety: However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. For the record, the King James Version, widely regarded as innacurate is the only translation to use the term "reverence". Most translations use the word Respect....

Another passage is Colossians 3:18 – Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.. Again, this ignores verse 19 *geez, I’m starting to see a pattern here* Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them. Essentially the same as Ephesians 5, the half-quoted passage also ignores the edict for man to Love his wife.

The final passage I’ll discuss is 1 Timothy 2:8-15 – I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness--with good works. Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Of all the passages Sheri quoted this is perhaps the only one that can be construed as portraying inequality amongst women. However, there is a cultural context that needs to be considered. It was and is a sad fact that women were uneducated 2000 years ago. It was a blatantly patriarchal society, where the men had all the learning experience. Don't blame the Bible for that though. As I've shown the Bible has done its best to show women are not inferior. It is the culture that is to blame. Anyhow, to have a woman teaching anyone would mean having an uneducated person teaching something that they had no knowledge of. Would you have a mechanic or a baker or a musician (for example) teach Masters level Psychology to post-grad’s? This is the same situation.

You see, when Paul originally wrote this letter to Timothy, he would have had no idea that it would be taken up hundreds of years later and read by strangers. It was a personal letter written to a very personal friend. Uneducated women teaching something they have no knowledge of would be ridiculous, especially if there were people, educated for their entire lives that could do the job.

However, it must be noted that I do still find this passage valid. Women and men do have different roles within the life of a church. Men have certain roles, women have certain roles. This is not to say in any way that they aren't capable of completing the roles of the other sex. Nor is it to say that exceptions cannot be made, if there is no other capable to do the job, for example. However, they do have different roles, men and women, but in no way should this be seen as a mark of inferiority, or subjugation.

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These are the primary passages used to sanction discrimination to women, but used in a laughable sweep of half verses and quarter verses. It is obvious that in its complete form, these passages do not promote inequality – far from it. They do give guidelines on how a woman should live. They also give guidelines on how a man should live. Both sexes are equal. Different, but equal! I shall expand on this in my next post. For now, as with my last post, I shall provide examples of women in the New Testament and the role’s they played.

Mary, the mother of Jesus – Mary was accounted as a woman of great Faith. In a book supposedly written by people who thought women were second-class citizens, Mary is accorded a high honour indeed. And I’m not talking about her being the mother of whom some people believe is the Messiah. When told by the angel that she was to have a child, Mary, a supposedly lowly woman, had great Faith: Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word” – Luke 1:38

In striking contrast, shortly before this, Zechariah, a man and a priest of God, when visited by the angel Gabriel and told that his wife would give birth to John the Baptist, Zechariah doubted: How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years.” – Luke 1:18. For his lack of Faith, Zechariah was cursed, unable to speak a word until John the Baptist was finally born. Zechariah, not just an ordinary man but a holy man of God, being put down, while Mary, a simple woman, was commended for her Faith under similar circumstances.

Mary Magdalene – At least that is to say, most people believe the woman being spoken of in Luke 7:36-50 (this is a link by the way) is Mary Magdalene. It never actually mentions a name, but the preceding chapter does speak of Mary Magdalene, a prostitute (another one, hmm – Rahab commended in the Old Testament, Mary Magdalene in the New…… the plot thickens) and it is assumed they are they same person.

Anyhow, while Jesus is at table (I’m going to assume for dinner) with the Pharisees, a sinful woman comes to him, weeping at his feet for the wrongs she had done. The Pharisees condemn her: If this man were a prophet he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner – verse 39. Jesus, far from doing this commends the woman for her great Faith, and treats her with equality and respect.

The woman who was healed – Luke 8:40-48 (yep, another link for ya ). A woman is healed by Faith. This leads on to my next post, so for now it will suffice to show that through Faith, men and women were treated equally.

The poor widow – In Luke 21:1-4 the widow was praised as being more righteous than the rich man who had more, but lacked Faith.

The Samaritan at the well – John 4. The Bible does not only cut through cultural prejudices against women, it also cuts through prejudices against race. Here we have a Samaritan, loathed by Jews, and a woman to boot. A Samaritan should have been shunned, a Samaritan woman even more so according to the culture. When Jesus speaks to the woman, she even admits as much: "How is it that you, a Jew, ask for a drink from me, a woman of Samaria?" - verse 9. But Jesus did not discriminate. The Bible does not discriminate. Instead he speaks to her and treats her fairly, as an equal. It even mentions, in verse 39 that Many Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony. A woman’s testimony, supposedly worth half that of a man, (according to Sheri at least, and as I've shown, completely incompatible with the Bible's teachings by the way) was instrumental in bringing many to believe in Jesus – the centrepiece of the Bible.

The examples in the New Testament are almost endless, of women being treated as equals, not as second-class citizens.

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My next post should not be as long and drawn out as this one, thank you for bearing with me Sheri. It’s all yours now

Thankyou PA,



Men are made in the image of God; women in the image of men. Women were created from and for men. 11:7-9 I Corinthians

Wives must submit to their husbands "in every thing" as though they were Christ. "For the husband is the head of the wife." 5:22-24 Ephesphians

Wives, according to Paul, must submit themselves to their husbands. 3:18 Colossians

In the Old Testament in the book of Genesis I personally counted 88 scriptures that refer and give direction as to the role of woman. That is the first book of the old testament there are 66 books in the Old testament, there are 27 books in the New Testament. I personally stopped counting after I reached 65 scriptures in the New testament, again stating very clearly that man has rule and authority over woman. It states in the Old testament in Genesis, that god created man and woman in his image , then as a punishment to woman she would have man rule over her for her life, I personally hear reference to this story by religous couples all the time, I recently had my Catholic/Christian parents stay with us, My father reminded my mother of that every day for the entire 32 days they stayed, It is not taken out of context a good christain follows the bible literally why would he have cause to think this isn't 'gods' word? THE BIBLE IS INFALLABLE THE WORD OF GOD. PERIOD A good Christian woman excepts that her husband is the authority over her, in every religion in every culture this is a FACT.

SHE IS LESS THAN THE MALE, SHE IS TO BE SUBSERVIENT, SHE IS TO SUBMIT TO HER HUSBAND IN ALL THINGS. PERIOD


Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Saviour. NOW AS The church SUBMITS to Christ, SO ALSO WIVES SHOULD SUBMIT in everything to their husbands. Ephesphians .

This is your example of a common misconception by the critics who in your words are not seeing what this really,means. It really means The woman is placed in a hierachical order, which means that there is a ranking of status and woman is below man.

There is not ONE scripture that says in plain english that woman is equal to as good as or superior to man. The woman exists to please man, its expected and if she doesn't many a christian man will enforce the "word of god."


My best Christian friend had her throat slashed by her christain husband she came running to my home holding her throat fortunately it was in enough time to save her life. She told me he did that because after working 10 hours delivering mail ( he did not work ) he wanted her to fix his dinner she told him she was too tired......He spent 6 months in jail got out came looking for her, she took him back when asked why by me she said Sheri I am expected to by 'god' it is my duty to forgive him and pray for the things I don't like. My friend lives a life of quiet desperation as a good christain woman this is her lot in life, she has been told any suffering she has to do is because of Eve she herself has said that. "Eve ruined it for us all," these words alone have justified the most horendous vile behavior ever known to women. Sadly Its not hearsay, Regretably these are not assumptions. never was a book more clear or precise in its views on woman.

TODAY I COUNTED 153 SCRIPTURE THAT WOMEN IS TO SUBMIT TO MAN , WOMEN IS LESS THAT MAN.

The reason a book is deemed sacred is because it is never outdated, many of these views in the bible have tremendous impact on woman, not only in america but around the globe. As a culture we also deem things to be "true" ( the bible is the biggest selling book of all time that makes it infallabe "common christian response") becasue they have stood the test of time thats how we measure the sacredness of something. Religion has it set up Man can stomp all over women just not on the doctrines that inspire these misogynic teachings. In fact its become a tradition not to question the validity of a doctrines beleifs, Irrational and illogical has come full circle.............


I pass the torch to you PA

Post 3 – “All equal under Christ"

By reading Sheri’s last post, I almost had the impression that everything I've written so far has been ignored. You can’t ignore facts. All Sheri has done is repeat those same passages, Ephesians, Colossians, those half-verse/quarter-verse misquotes, ignoring man’s role.

I am sorry for your friend, Sheri, and shocked and saddened at this story. It is indeed an outrage that this has happened
I’m curious, how does cutting her throat fulfil the man’s role of Loving his wife with a self-sacrificing, selfless Love???? I did admit in my last post that, when abused, these laws can lead to inequality and oppression, however it should not be this way. Just in case you missed it in my last post, here it is again (the second half of Ephesians 5 that you quoted, in case you weren't aware):

What this man did was hateful and selfish, not Loving and selfless

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All equal!

Just as an amusing aside to start off:

There is no passage that says anything in plain English It's translated from Ancient Greek and Hebrew. However, I will show you where it says, in plain English, that woman is indeed equal to man. But first…

I’m glad you brought this up, Sheri. If you recall, I also discussed this in my first post. I’m going to expand on it here.

This was indeed a punishment from God for eating from the Tree. Now, putting aside that man was also punished (read my 1st post for more details) for this wrong, IT IS A PUNISHMENT! That of course implies that this is not how things should be. Galatians 3:28 reads: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Neither male nor female, for all are one in Christ.

Again, it is not the point of this debate to preach Jesus or anything, but I must say this – in the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve had a complete relationship with God. When they ate from the tree, that relationship was broken (what scholars refer to as “the Fall”). Through Jesus’ death, those sins are erased, forgiven. Thus, Jesus’ death reverses the effects of the Fall. To be equal under Christ. No longer to be unequal and ruled over, but equal and caring.

There’s your plain English, Sheri – we are all equal under Christ. The way relationship should be. The way God wants them to be. The way the Bible portrays them to be.

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As promised, a shorter post for you to chew over. I shall discuss this post of yours a little further along in the debate.
Your turn, Sheri!

Thankyou PA

The debate topic is; Does the bible discriminate and promote Inequality towards women, I do beleive I am on topic and have stayed on topic, Please be more specific PA I am not seeing where I have gotten off track?


I have posted quite a few scriptures that deal with the discrimination towards women, what I'd like to include now are a few scriptures that are clear on the way the bible is to be studied, in what context it should be applied. the old testament and the new testament ARE THE LAWS OF GOD.

1 Chronicles 16:15
Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations

Psalm 119:
151 Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.

152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever

160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Luke 16:17
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

"All equal under Christ as per your example Galations 3:23-29 with particular emphasis on

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slalve nor free person, there is not male or female: for you are all one in Jesus Christ and if you belong to Christ then you are Abrahams descendant, heirs according to the promise.
What this is talking about is All things are possible in love accordng to Christainity Jesus died on the cross for this sort of love as understood by christians,in otherwords it is thought that Paul felt this was Jesus's message and to follow that example, but you MUST except Jesus christ into your heart for this to happen. Jesus Basically came to simplifiy the laws (of the OT and NT)

1. There shall be no other God above him, and Love your brothers as you love me. (It doesn't say sister by the way).

Pa the people of the Old Testament had lost faith and "god had up until this point had spoken thru prophets , so Jesus was sent to 'restore" faith according to the bible, throw in a few miracles.... and you Have as said by Peter in matthew 15:33 Truly you are the son of god" after Jesus had told him "O you of little faith, why did you doubt ? Matthew 15:31 (He almost fell in the water and Jesus stretched out his hand and pulled him back in.)

But i have strayed too far off topic, my point is that the above scripture did not change the hierarchial placement of women or suddenly create equality or end discrimination, I wonder why? Why Isn't that the biggest issue going in the New testament?? Of all the people that needed HELP, needed hope it was the female. I find that disturbing, and certain that Jesus wasn't there to advocate the fair treatment of women maybe for other things but clearly not that...

The bible is clear Woman was not adequate enough to be in the image of god, she is in the image of man... I think that speaks for itself.

One does not ask for or beg for the equal treatment of women One demands and stands for the end of discrimination for all people including women.

We should be tolerant of all things EXCEPT INTOLERANCE. Voltaire


I pass the floor to you Pa

Post 4 – Women today: The rise of Feminism

As in previous posts, before I deal with women in today's society, I shall address a few points from your earlier posts, Sheri:

Thank you for those passages, Sheri. You are exactly right. These are the Laws of God. However, I’m not entirely sure what you are trying to say. I have also posted passages of my own (and I have refuted many of yours) that show woman as equal to man.

It doesn’t say Love your brothers either: Matthew 22:37-40, when Jesus is asked “Teacher, what is the Greatest command”, he replies, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

Love your neighbour, Sheri, not your brother (though we are to love our brother's too ). There are parallel accounts of this section in Mark 12 and Luke 10. Both also say neighbour, with no mention of brother.

This is the simplification of the Law of which you spoke, though not entirely accurate - Jesus did simplify the Law, but that was not why Jesus came. It’s not important to this debate to explain exactly why, so I shall let it pass.

Jesus advocated unparalleled equality for ALL PEOPLE. Not just women. My first and second body post were almost entirely devoted to women in the Bible. These women came from all walks of life, not just “typical” Jewish women. Prostitutes and Samaritans are the two most prominent examples I gave - both were culturally condemned by the people, yet Jesus treated them with equality and respect, looking beyond the historical and cultural prejudices of the day, and in so doing, showing the true meaning of the Bible. The Bible is filled with examples such as this. The Bible sees and portrays all people as equal….. using your own words Sheri: One does not ask for or beg for the equal treatment of women One demands and stands for the end of discrimination for all people including women.

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Women today

The latter half of the 20th Century, through to the present day has seen a significant shift in thought. Feminism now permeates most of (Western) society – the belief that whatever men can do, women can do better.

Now, let’s not mix things up here, I’m not saying anything against feminism specifically – though as with anything, taken to the radical extreme, feminism can be just as egocentric and detrimental as male domination (for example, complete separation of male’s and female’s – I’ve heard of women who will not accept a job where they have a male boss, simply because they perceive it as a throwback to the bad old days). Anyhow, as I said, I am not criticizing feminism, rather I am examining it, how it has impacted modern thought in relation to issues of women’s rights.

Though feminism as a movement has been around in some form or other for the better part of 200 years, it is only since the 1960’s that it has really taken off as a popular movement (what is referred to commonly as second-wave feminism). Today, feminism has affected virtually every level of society. Rights and liberties, work and leadership, relationships, religion, language. All of these and more are directly affected by feminism. It is an inescapable part of life today (Source). And it is within this frame that we are having this debate right now. That we are even having this debate is a testament to women’s equality today.

The Bible, as I’ve shown throughout this debate, also promotes the same themes of equality for all people. Women such as Rahab, Esther, Mary, Rebekah, just to name a few. Although the Bible does not go to extreme, obviously (for some feminists, nothing short of an Amazon state will suffice for women’s rights – to the point that males are nothing more than second class citizens).

As I said, this post was not meant to condemn feminism in any way, for there is nothing wrong with feminism. Rather it was just to discuss the cultural situation in which we are viewing these issues. In language for example, words have been changed as a result of feminism, human kind instead of mankind being just one of the obvious examples. However, in France (see source page above), such an argument is virtually irrelevant, since the French language is filled with male and female adjectives anyway. The need to call something “herstory”, as some are prone to doing, instead of history is redundant in such a language.

To finish off this post, the Bible is just as much a book that can be used today to guage women's rights by. Treating women with the respect and equality that Jesus treated them, who can go wrong. Jesus didn't go and cut a woman's throat because she wouldn't make him dinner, for example.

Over to you now, Sheri

Thankyou PA i'm glad you are feeling better

Feminism has many connontations surrounding it but at the core or heart of it lies these core central beleifs:
Women who stood for this wanted equality meaning equal protection under just law
and they wanted the equal oppourtunity to protest injustice.
They wanted the right to have ownership over their individual selfs as you are certainly aware women were under religious law which states that woman is to be submissive to man.


Most of our social norms have been impressed upon us to think and value women as second class citizens through RELIGIOUS doctrine and law.


I would like to point out at this point that Jesus was influenced by the teachings of the bible and upheld them, nor did he infer that he was there to change anything , such as the inequality and discrimination towards women.

Mark 13:32
But of what day hour, no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor THE SON, but only the father. It is like a man traveling abroad. He leaves home and places his SERVANTS in charge, each with his work, and orders the gatekeeper to keep watch. Watch therefore, you do not know when the lord of the house is coming, whether in the evening or at midnight or at cockcrow or in the morning. May he come suddenly and find you sleeping. What I say to you, I say to all watch.

Acts 1:7
It is not for you to know the times or seasons that the father has established by his own authority. but you will recieve power when the holy spirit comes upon you.

Jesus also knew his place in the hierarchial order and made a point to remind others contrary to the idea that he was there to BRING EQUALITY TO ALL....

The life of the christian women is one of suffering and submission once she has excepted Jesus christ as her Lord and Savior, being taught she has been chosen to to be obediant and submissive to her husband , it doesnot matter if he is abusive or not a good example or not a good provider, she is to pray to 'god" for these things to get better, focus only on her obedience to God.

See god asks that she commits to submission to another human being as a measure of her faith and submissiveness to god. Submission according to the bible is the ultimate act of
love to 'god'.

Only when she gives complete control over to her husband for her entire life (as 'god' monitors her commitment) will she then be provided for by god, What that provision is one can only guess..


These teachings are upheld all over the world, somewhere today as we speak a women is being brought up in the way of the lord, yes i stand by my original observation the bible promotes discrimination and inequality of all women......



Back to you Pa

Post 5 – Arguments from culture

Thank you for your concern Sheri, I’m feeling much better this week

How can you say it does not matter if he is abusive or not????? I posted the full and complete passages from Ephesians and Colossians for you. The passage is only half complete when you say Women, submit to your husbands. It also says, Husbands, Love your wives, remember!!!!! Again, as I have asked before – how is it Loving for a man to beat his wife? How can a man assaulting a woman be in line with Jesus' example of Love and sacrifice? IT DOES MATTER SHERI, A GREAT DEAL!

The Bible does not portray women as second class citizens! In addition to supplying full and complete quotes, I have provided actual examples of women being treated as equals in the Bible; and even at times superior to men - the most striking example, but by no means the only one, is Abigail's Loving response compared to her husband's evil actions in denying David, when he could easily afford it (see my post titled Women in the Old Testament for more details).

In regard to the other Bible passages you quoted in your most recent post, of course there is a hierarchy. Everything has a hierarchy. In the army for example, if all soldiers were “equal”, then who makes the decisions to move left or move right, to fight or to run? There has to be a chain of command in the army, else everything fails. Yet on the battlefield, when it comes down to it, they are all human beings, bleeding and dying for their cause. No one is greater than anyone else. There is also a hierarchy in the Christian God-head – God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Jesus (the Son) is not greater than, or even equal to the Father. Yet the Son is not inferior to the Father either. Likewise in relationships, woman is not inferior to man, but equal to man, though there is a hierarchy. Again, from my previous post, Christians submit to Jesus every day. Does this make Christians second class citizens? By no means. A Christian is no more, or no less, than a non-Christian. Yet when a woman is asked to submit in the SAME MANNER, somehow this is a chance for the man to stomp all over the woman, for the woman to be treated as second class. It does not make sense. As I have conceded in the past, when abused these Laws can be used to oppress and discriminate women. As Dr Broughton Knox puts it though – Sin has debased headship into dominance and obedience into servility....... But it is not to be so (Knox: Selected works, volume 1 The Everlasting God, page 94). I must agree with Knox. IT MUST NOT BE THIS WAY! This inequality must not be so.

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The fallacy of arguing from culture

Throughout this debate, Sheri has used examples from culture to back up her arguments. As convincing as these examples are, they only tell me about the society in which we live. Unfortunately, this debate is not “Does society and culture promote inequality and discrimination amongst women”. Rather, it is about the Bible promoting these things. For example, Sheri asserts that a woman is beaten every 15 seconds. I’m going to assume that these are statistics for America, not worldwide. What I ask is: Where are the statistics about how many men assault other men, or even how many women assault men? (while not "proof", my abuse thread click here for details shows the consensus of opinion here that women abuse men just as much as men abuse women). But more to the point, does the Bible advocate such discriminatory behaviour? The answer – a resounding NO!

Only about 10% of Americans are actually religious (in the Christian sense at least). These are the numbers that attend church. With such a small percentage of the population actually attending a Christian institution, how can quoting general statistics encompassing the whole of American society be an accurate reflection on religion, let alone the Bible! In Australia, those numbers are even smaller, with about 2% of Australians attending church!

As for the discrimination of women within Muslim culture, I believe this is what Sheri was referring to in her 4th body post by saying:



The Koran is NOT the Bible, and Islam is NOT a religion based on the Bible – and since this debate is concerning the Bible, not the Koran, not culture, it should play no part in it.

It is a fallacy to use examples from culture, except to perhaps highlight a specific part of the Bible. Since the Bible does not advocate such discrimination and inequality, it is useless to argue points from culture. As an interesting side note, did you know that Wisdom is culturally given a female persona in the Old Testament?

However, I will concede here that perhaps these arguments provide circumstantial evidence for argument of the Bible. However, since these actions and statistics are not compatible with the Bible’s actual teachings, I can only conclude that these problems are not a result of the Bible, but of our society, and of our culture, and of simple human selfishness.

I shall conclude this post by repeating my earlier quote from Knox – Sin has debased headship into dominance and obedience into servility...... but it is not to be so. It is not to be so........

Nearly there, Sheri You’re turn!

Thankyou Pa for your partnership in this debate and thankyou to the judges and all the UM members and visitors that are taking time to read such an important question.


Does the bible promote inequality and discrimination, in conclusion:

Unless you are a woman you wouldn't get how a woman lives her life in rythm with life itself, the female essence just goes with the flow, men so often want to direct and control things she just allows the experince then she molds with it to produce a harmony A woman hears the silence in nature , she sees the beauty in the unseen, she understands the ebb and pull of life and she understands there is a time for everything some know this as the Yin Yang energy no one energy or essence is more perfect or better than another and the bible teaches that Woman is actually less than. In the new testament I counted 63 scriptures that state woman is made in the image of man. He is made in the image of 'god'.



Through this debate i have contained my arguement in large part to the new testament I see no differences between bibles. The Qu'ran in particular mirrors the Old testament in its treatment of women. I duly noted from the beginning that there was discomfort with Pa in my referencing the qu'ran I adjusted my debate accordingly. The new testament speaks for itself one simply needs to read it. As a girl who was reared in the ways of the lord i know first hand the role of a woman she is to be obediant and submissive to her husband as a Christian woman you take the bible very seriously and would have no reason to shirk you obligation to follow the infallablle word of 'god' even at the peril of your own saftey.


The bible is regarded as the inspired word of 'god'. The biblical love is one of conditons there are rules and they are to be adhered too, the bible is clear on what happens if you don't, but this is not the point of this debate.


As a society we have to question the doctrines that guide us? Mght is not right and being stronger doesn't mean strength over someone we must relpace aggression with reason replace contempt with compassion and empathy and that as the sexes we are equal and complimentive to each other, a team, the yin the yang which makes life this wonderful experince and we have to be willing to admit we are wrong, and be willing to write new bibles that reflect our current understandings, we can no longer turn a blind eye to the sacred doctrines that whether intentional or unintentional support discrimination or intolerance towards women.

Jesus was a product of his times and was influenced by those times which are reflected in his teachings i always found it interesting that he never had a female disciple if he was willing to die for ones sins why not go ahead and stand for the equal and just treatment of women i am not convinced he did enough or that he actually did not agree that women were less than, it seems not until The Davinci Code was female suddenly brought into the picture and now there is heresay jesus honored women and fought for them..Why isn't it in the bible as clearly as the scriptures that say woman is less than??? But I don't want to veer to far off topic.

yes i wholeheartedly state and have proven without a doubt that the bible discriminates towards woman....


Again thankyou to PA and UM for being so kind to have us in a debate.....

Conclusion

Thank you also, Sheri, for partnering me in this debate. And thank you to Lottie for setting this debate up, and to everyone who has taken an interest in it.

I fully believe that the Bible does not discriminate against women. Through studying the Old Testament and the New Testament, and examining the role of women today, I have shown without a shadow of doubt that the Bible does not, nor has it ever promoted inequality for women. Above and beyond examining the scriptures that support equality or deny equality, I have provided actual examples of women in the Bible, and their role within it. A role that does not show a population of evil harlots and second class citizens, looked down upon as Less than. Rather, a role that shows strength and beauty and Love and equality.

The testimony of the Samaritan woman was instrumental in bringing people to believe (a testimony that is supposedly worth half that of a man, by the way). Other names – Rahab, Deborah, Abigail, Esther, Ruth, Rebekah, Mary the Mother of Jesus, Mary Magdalene, widows, prostitutes, poor women, rich women, caring women, loving women. The examples are almost endless. Women who turned the course of history, women who were Loving despite having cruel and wicked husbands! But I digress.

Whenever women are punished, men are punished equally. When women are told to submit as Christ submitted, men are told to Love as Christ Loved. It is NEVER the case alone that women are singled out and dealt with alone. For the essence of Life is relationships. The Bible desires to build godly relationships with one another. Treating everyone with Love and respect, treating your neighbour (whether male or female) with the same Love and respect you wish to be treated with. Treating your partners with Love, not with dominance; with equality, not discrimination.

Jesus did much during his life to promote equality amongst all people. Not just women, but Samaritans and Gentiles as well. He treated the lame, the blind, the deaf, lepers and outcasts with respect (common belief in those days was that these diseased individuals were afflicted thus because of some great and nameless Sin against God). Jesus dined with sinners and tax collectors (you hate the tax man today - they were even more despised and unscrupulous 2000 years ago ). All those who were marginalized by society, all those who were treated as outcasts, Jesus treated with Love and dignity.... and equality.

The Bible is clear on this issue – women are equal. Different, but equal. The Bible DOES NOT promote inequality and discrimination amongst women!!!!

Regards, PA

A big thank you to both of you for a really fab debate. Articulate and well thought out arguments and in a timely manner too, I really enjoyed this one!

Now its time for our wonderful judges to decide the winner!

Good debate; Both of you pulled out of the station smoothly however I was a little worried about derailment about halfway through. I felt from both of you that we were sliding into the feminist argument rather than the issue at hand.

Debator 1: Sheri Berri
Relevancy: 9
Countering: 7
Style: 7
Persuasiveness: 8
Total: 31

Debator 2: Paranoid Android
Relevancy: 9
Countering: 9
Style: 7
Persuasiveness: 7
Total: 32

Irish

Sherri has regrettably opted to pull out of this debate, and Paranoid Android will win by default.

Even so, I think it's only fair, especially to Paranoid Android to continue with the scoring to see who would have won based on the strength of the debates before this one is closed down.

As Saruman has stated we are now going to continue with the judging of this debate as this is only fair.
Once the results are in we will close this debate down and as Sheri has decided to pull out you will win by default.

I hope this is clear.

Lottie

Great job to all. I agree with Irsh on a few things. It got a bit off topic at times, and I would also liked to see you guys talk about the Bibles views of homosexuality. But, you guy's still did great.

Debator 1: Sheri Berri
Relevancy: 7
Countering: 7
Style: 7
Persuasiveness: 6
Total: 27

Debator 2: Paranoid Android
Relevancy: 7
Countering: 9
Style: 8
Persuasiveness: 7
Total: 31

A great debate!

On a personal note, it seemed like Sheri Berri was pumping out scriptures (even though they are valid for the topic) that she was giving her own interpretation on! But this showed her passion for the topic at hand; a debate that has been one of the best I’ve judged in a while.


Debator 1: Sheri Berri
Relevancy: 9
Countering: 7
Style: 8
Persuasiveness: 7
Total: 31

Debator 2: Paranoid Android
Relevancy: 9
Countering: 9
Style: 8
Persuasiveness: 8
Total: 34

The Scores are in:

Sherri Berri (29.9) vs Paranoid Android (32.3) [W] [Wins by default]

Thank you to everyone who took part .