Full Version: If we sin we go to hell right?
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Metaphysics, Psychology & Psychic Phenomena
So what would the population really be in heaven? Does that mean all of us are going to hell? cuz i'm sure, you, me, everyone else has sinned. if you think about it, downloading stuff off the net thats portrayed illegal like kazaa ware is illegal, that means breaking the law and is a sin yes? that means, billions of people are going to hell am i right?
AlienSama to answer this question, I can only use the bible, from which Christians get their information from.
The 10 commandments are called the Law in 1 Kings 2:3, this law consists ofover 600 individual laws, of which the Ten commandments are the main ones.
The Law was not given to all of mankind, jehovah made the aggreement with the descendants of Jacob, who became the nation of Israel, jehovah gave the laws to this nation only. In the bible it is clear in deuteronomy 5:1-3 an psalms 147:19, 20.
The role of jesus in the story is, that he acts as a breach in the wall that had grown between the Israelites and the other nations on earth. galatians 3:25.
To answer your oter question, of how many people go to heaven, the answer is again in the bible: 144,000, no more, no less.
The thing is that accordin to the bible, the rest of the good humans will not go to heaven, but will be brought back to life to live here on earth. The people that do go to heaven, will be taken there to rule with jesus in the golden age, as it could be called.
The others will be the subjects, of the co-rulers in heaven.
In the greek version of the bible, it uses the word Hades, instead of hell, what this actually means is death, nothing more.
What i'm leading onto is the fact that the bible when it mensions the soul, it says that the soul is actually the human body itself, and when you die, your soul goes with it, as they are the same thing.
The 10 commandments are called the Law in 1 Kings 2:3, this law consists ofover 600 individual laws, of which the Ten commandments are the main ones.
The Law was not given to all of mankind, jehovah made the aggreement with the descendants of Jacob, who became the nation of Israel, jehovah gave the laws to this nation only. In the bible it is clear in deuteronomy 5:1-3 an psalms 147:19, 20.
The role of jesus in the story is, that he acts as a breach in the wall that had grown between the Israelites and the other nations on earth. galatians 3:25.
To answer your oter question, of how many people go to heaven, the answer is again in the bible: 144,000, no more, no less.
The thing is that accordin to the bible, the rest of the good humans will not go to heaven, but will be brought back to life to live here on earth. The people that do go to heaven, will be taken there to rule with jesus in the golden age, as it could be called.
The others will be the subjects, of the co-rulers in heaven.
In the greek version of the bible, it uses the word Hades, instead of hell, what this actually means is death, nothing more.
What i'm leading onto is the fact that the bible when it mensions the soul, it says that the soul is actually the human body itself, and when you die, your soul goes with it, as they are the same thing.
there is no set number of people to go to Heaven. through Jesus, we all may go to Heaven if we ask him to speak to God on our behalf. Jesus died so that sinners may live. now that doesn't mean you can go sinning all through life and still get to Heaven; it just means that you must repent and ask for Jesus to help you before the Lord.
the Old and the New Testament are totally different in philosophy. the Old is much more harsh and requires much more of a person to get to Heaven than the New Testament does.
for example, in the Old Testament there is the story of Job. he endures all kinds of tortures because God and Satan have a bet over if he will renounce God if he is tested through pain. Job loses his family and all his worldly possessions, is covered in boils and in endless misery but he still believes in God. that is symbolic of the Old Testament and what is required of someone to get to the Kingdom of Heaven. God is an absolute power in the Old Testament and there were also absolute rules that had to be obeyed. The New Testament modified that and relaxed those standards because we cannot all be Jobs. we are humans and we make mistakes, so the New Testament focuses on making good choices and having faith in Jesus Christ to save your soul.
the Old and the New Testament are totally different in philosophy. the Old is much more harsh and requires much more of a person to get to Heaven than the New Testament does.
for example, in the Old Testament there is the story of Job. he endures all kinds of tortures because God and Satan have a bet over if he will renounce God if he is tested through pain. Job loses his family and all his worldly possessions, is covered in boils and in endless misery but he still believes in God. that is symbolic of the Old Testament and what is required of someone to get to the Kingdom of Heaven. God is an absolute power in the Old Testament and there were also absolute rules that had to be obeyed. The New Testament modified that and relaxed those standards because we cannot all be Jobs. we are humans and we make mistakes, so the New Testament focuses on making good choices and having faith in Jesus Christ to save your soul.
i'm going to heaven...[edited out]
Edit:
Krow, please don't mock people's faith. The edited remark could well start a flame. And we don't want them. Thank you for your cooperation...
Edit:
Krow, please don't mock people's faith. The edited remark could well start a flame. And we don't want them. Thank you for your cooperation...
This guy from a church came to my house a while ago and i told him i wasn't catholic so he made me repeat what he said. I did it. I can't remember but he said that because i prayed to jesus and asked to be saved, I wasn't going to hell. 
MY father refused to have us baptised because he was brought up Catholic . He said that when he was at school the Nuns told him that unbaptised souls go straight to hell . He could never understand how an inocent child who had had no chance to sin would be sent to hell if they died before the parents could have them baptised ..
| QUOTE (Kismit @ Sep 4 2003, 11:32 PM) |
| MY father refused to have us baptised because he was brought up Catholic . He said that when he was at school the Nuns told him that unbaptised souls go straight to hell . He could never understand how an inocent child who had had no chance to sin would be sent to hell if they died before the parents could have them baptised .. |
It's the old 'original sin' stigma (Adam and Eve, the apple, etc.). What I don't understand about Catholicism is that I thought Jesus died for everyone's sins. Doesn't that mean he wiped the slate clean of original sin for future generations?
aliensama, i think to say that by d/ding stuff illegally thru Kazaa would end up in Hell would be a little too harsh.
just do not do those things that may destroy other people's life and even yours too.
P.S.:I'm a Kazaa geek myself,so of course..........
just do not do those things that may destroy other people's life and even yours too.
P.S.:I'm a Kazaa geek myself,so of course..........
| QUOTE |
| MY father refused to have us baptised because he was brought up Catholic . He said that when he was at school the Nuns told him that unbaptised souls go straight to hell . He could never understand how an inocent child who had had no chance to sin would be sent to hell if they died before the parents could have them baptised .. |
Kismit, this is not true. your Father was a child when he learned these things and children are not able to fully comprehend things of this nature. there are intense theological debates centered around this topic but it boils down to this:
supposedly, one cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven until he or she is baptized by water. the reason people baptize their children is because they want to be sure they are baptized in case they die before reaching the age where they can accept Christ on their own- so that they can enter Heaven in such a tragedy. the view on this has changed in the Catholic church because of abortion. aborted children would not be baptized and would be kept from Heaven if this were the true nature of God. Theologians believe that baptism should be performed when possible, but it is not absolutely necessary to get into Heaven. they believe that Jesus will act on behalf of even an unbaptized child to secure God's favor. the main thing they are trying to do is get people to baptize their children. it is a ritual of the church and in most religions there are rituals.
maybe your Father really disliked growing up Catholic and decided you wouldn't want to FOR you. you should decide on your own. people who stray from religion always find some particular thing to decry as the reason but its usually just a fabrication or an excuse. my own parents did some of the same things. they were fine being Catholics until they divorced and the church wouldn't allow them to be Catholics anymore. that was when Catholics started being villainized and we started hunting a new church with different philosophies. the funny thing is that i still agree with many Catholic philosophies myself- although not all of them.
baptism is something you do when you decide to accept Christ into your life. i believe it should be done not as a child, but when you are old enough to understand what you are being baptized for. that's just my personal opinion. you should consider being baptized when/if that happens to you, Kismit.
Personally, I was under the impression that most of the major Christian denominations had dispensed with the idea of 'Hell' as both unhealthy and unhelpful. I thought that they did this a while ago, baptism or lack thereof notwithstanding.
you've obviously never been to Alabama, Aslan. without Hell, Sunday morning there would be nothing to talk about
| QUOTE |
| you've obviously never been to Alabama, Aslan. without Hell, Sunday morning there would be nothing to talk about |
LOL how true! Sounds like my old church.
Okay darlins if you care - this is how I percieve sins....I was brought up once in grace always in grace. It's a theory accepted by the Baptist church and basically if you have been saved then you are a child of God period. The Bible states that once we belong to Jesus no one can pluck us from his hand. So in other words - if you are saved (if you repent) then you are going to heaven no matter what. But this always puzzled me - would the human race not take this as a ticket to sin freely? Yeah, thats what I thought to.
If you begin to sin - and know that you are sinning and it doesn't bother you thats called backsliding.
By definition backsliding is: The act of turning from God after conversion. The causes of backsliding are spiritual blindess (2 Pet. 1:9); persecution (Matt 13:20-21); or love of material things (1Tim. 6:10). This sin separates the backslider from God's blessings (Isa. 59:2). But confession and repentance will bring God's forgivness (1John 1:9) and restoration (Ps 5:1).
We are humans - we are going to sin. We have no choice! There is no if, and or but about it. You will sin every day of your life simply because we are flawed and have no choice. If you sin it does not mean you are still not a child of God it simply means that your rewards in heaven will not be as great when you go to heaven....provided you haven't asked forgivness for those sins. If you ask for forgivness then you of course are forgiven and they are cast away.
As for the baptisim question that was raised - it is NOT necessary to be baptised to get into heaven! It is an act of faith that we should do because Jesus asked us to. It is a public profession of faith. You can be saved anywhere - by yourself or in a room of 400 people but if you don't tell someone they won't know. Baptisim is a way to publicly announce your faith in Christ. Hope this helps!
I've been debating on adding my 2 cents here, until I read Kismit's post and Bizarro's reply. So here goes......
Kismit... More than likely, I am your father's age, give or take. I can relate with your statement and wanted to say, what your father was taught, is what I was taught, with a twist.... here and there.
I was fortunate to attend a parochial school from Grade 1 to 6. I say fortunate only with regard to the quality of the education in the basic "3 R's" .... Exceptionally small class size and individual attention to each student.
The unfortunate part... I was one of two Protestants attending there. In the First Grade, I was called to the front of the class and made to stand facing my classmates. The Nun asked the class if they knew how many reasons there were for people to be condemed to hell. Don't forget...... the age of these children were an average of 6 years. After several volunteer answers, the Nun spoke up and said, loud and clear... "If you are like Nancy? You will automatically be sent to Hell. She is not Catholic and that is the biggest Sin of all!"
Needless to say, that wasn't the best way for a new kid in town to make friends
The point of this long winded post is...... Years ago the philosophy taught was barbaric! As you can see, all these decades later, this incident as well as dozens of others have stuck in this blonde head of mine. Do I believe it? No.... but the impressions left can scar and make for a very confused child with self-esteem at minus 1.
Bizarro? You told Kismit what her father was told isn't true. That may well be, however....... The information and doctrines taught by zealous Nuns/Priests many years ago have a long lasting effect, true or............... false.
Kismit... More than likely, I am your father's age, give or take. I can relate with your statement and wanted to say, what your father was taught, is what I was taught, with a twist.... here and there.
I was fortunate to attend a parochial school from Grade 1 to 6. I say fortunate only with regard to the quality of the education in the basic "3 R's" .... Exceptionally small class size and individual attention to each student.
The unfortunate part... I was one of two Protestants attending there. In the First Grade, I was called to the front of the class and made to stand facing my classmates. The Nun asked the class if they knew how many reasons there were for people to be condemed to hell. Don't forget...... the age of these children were an average of 6 years. After several volunteer answers, the Nun spoke up and said, loud and clear... "If you are like Nancy? You will automatically be sent to Hell. She is not Catholic and that is the biggest Sin of all!"
Needless to say, that wasn't the best way for a new kid in town to make friends
The point of this long winded post is...... Years ago the philosophy taught was barbaric! As you can see, all these decades later, this incident as well as dozens of others have stuck in this blonde head of mine. Do I believe it? No.... but the impressions left can scar and make for a very confused child with self-esteem at minus 1.
Bizarro? You told Kismit what her father was told isn't true. That may well be, however....... The information and doctrines taught by zealous Nuns/Priests many years ago have a long lasting effect, true or............... false.
The size of heaven is given in revelations.
It is cubed.
The size of this cube would be to travel from the coast of california to the state of texas.
The 144,000 are Jews.
Ask yourself this question........ If I were to die today and am confronted by God and he asks the question, why should I allow you into the kingdom of heaven?
what would you tell him?
If you said, I'm a good person!
Then, you're going to hell.
Good people don't go to heaven, just those who receive God's grace and meditate on the scripture.
If you love God, you will obey his commandments.
Salvation if given to anyone, if you are willing to give up on worldly things and give the holy spirit full control of your life.
Did you give God full control of your life?
That's how many people will go to heaven.
It is cubed.
The size of this cube would be to travel from the coast of california to the state of texas.
The 144,000 are Jews.
Ask yourself this question........ If I were to die today and am confronted by God and he asks the question, why should I allow you into the kingdom of heaven?
what would you tell him?
If you said, I'm a good person!
Then, you're going to hell.
Good people don't go to heaven, just those who receive God's grace and meditate on the scripture.
If you love God, you will obey his commandments.
Salvation if given to anyone, if you are willing to give up on worldly things and give the holy spirit full control of your life.
Did you give God full control of your life?
That's how many people will go to heaven.
Wndy well said! By the way boys and girls your reply should be: because I am washed in the blood of Christ and a child of God! I found a couple verses of scripture you all might be interrested in:
Romans 3:23 For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Ecclesiasties 7:20 There is not a righteous man on Eart who does what is right and never sins
Romans 3:23 For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Ecclesiasties 7:20 There is not a righteous man on Eart who does what is right and never sins
The last two entries made are two of the many reasons I am not a part of any organized religion.
Tis a shame that only so few get to Heaven. The God in whom I believe is not that 'stingy'........ He doesn't "count heads" or measure mileage.
I agree with the Verses quoted, since Humans are just that....... Human!
Ladies, please do not take offense at my comments, I honor your views and your right to express your beliefs, I just don't agree.
Tis a shame that only so few get to Heaven. The God in whom I believe is not that 'stingy'........ He doesn't "count heads" or measure mileage.
I agree with the Verses quoted, since Humans are just that....... Human!
Ladies, please do not take offense at my comments, I honor your views and your right to express your beliefs, I just don't agree.
Nancy - none taken! I don't understand your reasons though. Perhaps we have our wires crossed? God does not count heads - salvation is open to everyone! It is your choice - not God's that you do or do not go.... I've never viewed God as stingy - thats why he sent Jesus Christ so that all may go to heaven if they choose to do so.....
Anirbas....... My former reply involved your comment and wndycurry's comment, with which you said you agreed. Here is the statement in question:
| QUOTE |
| Posted on Sep 6 2003, 12:43 AM : wndycurry: The size of heaven is given in revelations. It is cubed. The size of this cube would be to travel from the coast of california to the state of texas. Did you give God full control of your life? That's how many people will go to heaven. |
How many souls can you fit into the description as is stated in Revelations?
I hope this clears up your question?
Oh I understand now - I think I kinda skipped over that statement in my mind. In all honesty I don't know where it says that heaven is cubed and if that is what it says then it's most likely been taken out of context. But I do know that as many as will accept God is as many that will go to heaven!
Anirbas, thanks! 
Tis nice to be on the same wavelength.
Tis nice to be on the same wavelength.
Nancy , not nly are you of similar age to my father I think you both must have gone to the same school .
Bizzaro thank you for caring about my state of non-baptism , but I think it may well be my mission in life to question this one with god on a one to one basis when I get there ..
As another thought directed to the thread as a whole ... The thought of there being a limit on the amount of souls allowed in the heaven box , dosen't fit into the re-incarnation theory .
I mean not only do I believe I have travelled through many states of exsistence but more than likely many different religions too . I'm sure I was a Celtic warrior in a past life with pagan beliefs , probably a catholic , in this life I border on the budhist philosophy and I'm almost certain I was a jewish man called "Ishmael *" at one stage . As Nancy said so eloquently earlier.....
Bizzaro thank you for caring about my state of non-baptism , but I think it may well be my mission in life to question this one with god on a one to one basis when I get there ..
As another thought directed to the thread as a whole ... The thought of there being a limit on the amount of souls allowed in the heaven box , dosen't fit into the re-incarnation theory .
I mean not only do I believe I have travelled through many states of exsistence but more than likely many different religions too . I'm sure I was a Celtic warrior in a past life with pagan beliefs , probably a catholic , in this life I border on the budhist philosophy and I'm almost certain I was a jewish man called "Ishmael *" at one stage . As Nancy said so eloquently earlier.....
| QUOTE |
| The God in whom I believe is not that 'stingy'........ He doesn't "count heads" or measure mileage. |
* Ishmael is a complete fabrication .... I think
| QUOTE |
| Nancy , not only are you of similar age to my father I think you both must have gone to the same school . |
(((Kismit))) thank you, tis spooky, huh?
Thank you as well for your compliment.
ill say a little prayer for you, Kismit. i hope for your sake that God is into one on one debates with each mortal soul that appears before him.
| QUOTE (Bizarro @ Sep 8 2003, 03:50 PM) |
| ill say a little prayer for you, Kismit. i hope for your sake that God is into one on one debates with each mortal soul that appears before him. |
Better make that a big one DS, and thank you .......
HEAVEN IS CUBED
Revelations chapter 21
And he who talked to me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls.
The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its breadth; and he measured the city with his rod, twelve thousand stadia; its length and breadth and height are equal.
He also measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits by a man's measure, that is, an angel's.
tada !!
Stadia = 6075 feet
12000 stadia = One Big Place
I have put all three posts together as it didn't need three seperate ones
Revelations chapter 21
And he who talked to me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls.
The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its breadth; and he measured the city with his rod, twelve thousand stadia; its length and breadth and height are equal.
He also measured its wall, a hundred and forty-four cubits by a man's measure, that is, an angel's.
tada !!
Stadia = 6075 feet
12000 stadia = One Big Place
I have put all three posts together as it didn't need three seperate ones
| QUOTE |
| Ladies, please do not take offense at my comments, I honor your views and your right to express your beliefs, I just don't agree. |
I agree with u Nancy...
There just seems to be too much cross talking and contradictions in what people would regard as the 'Orthodox Christian Faith' for me.
I was baptised but only because it was thought when I was born I wouldn't last the week, and my parents were 'pressurised' into it. My father was going to let me have the choice when I was older.. and he had been brought up Roman Catholic, & had decided that if he had kids he would give them the choice.
I am a practising Pagan and have been for most of my life, mydaughter has Pagan on her school files as her religion too, she has not been baptised and she will make the choice when she is old enough.
So if I was to believe what the 'Church' says I sinned cos I had a child out of wedlock, and now that child is now not going to heaven cos she was born from sin and not being baptised means she is not absolved from it......
hmmmmm
Does it not come down to in the end to which God you believe in :-
The God of the old testment all fire and brimstone and dicing out retribution, or
The God of the new testment full of love and forgiveness.
The God of the old testment all fire and brimstone and dicing out retribution, or
The God of the new testment full of love and forgiveness.
CW..... Thank you for agreeing. I understand your point of view:
| QUOTE |
| There just seems to be too much cross talking and contradictions in what people would regard as the 'Orthodox Christian Faith' for me. |
Druss, in my book? You are correct as well:
| QUOTE |
| Does it not come down to in the end to which God you believe in :- |
These are several reasons why Religion is so interesting, and when discussing openly, can be dangerous. Humans take their beliefs very seriously and in the blink of an eye, any given comment can be misconstrued and feelings hurt.
My biggest objection to any organized religion is those who believe what they are taught no matter what, do not question any aspects and then attempt to shove those ideals down someone else's throat, threatening condemnation to Hell if their beliefs are not accepted. I guess that is what the definition of "Blind Faith" is, to some degree.
My "church" is walking on the beach at the ocean. Seems I connect with my interpretation of God there than any other place.... He seems to find me there, everytime.
| QUOTE |
| My biggest objection to any organized religion is those who believe what they are taught no matter what, do not question any aspects and then attempt to shove those ideals down someone else's throat, threatening condemnation to Hell if their beliefs are not accepted. I guess that is what the definition of "Blind Faith" is, to some degree. |
nope. not all organized religion. you guys act as if religious people in the modern age are some kind of psycho Puritans on a witchhunt and that is just not so. religion is by its definition full of rituals and requirements but they differ from religion to religion. if one is not right for you, another is bound to be closer to your ideals. this is even true amongst christian denominations.
i think Druss summed it up best. no one today follows the Old Testament literally because it is severely outdated. even the most orthodox christian religions do not take "an eye for an eye" or other outdated notions literally. the New Testament modified the Old, changing the way christians interpret the Bible. through Jesus, we can find love and forgiveness- that is the message of the New Testament. of course, some christians cling more to the Old Testament than others, as its message is not outdated as a whole.
as for having a child out of wedlock and being condemned for it, that is just as much breaking a societal norm as a religious one. i find it hard to believe any christian religion would fault a child for the actions of the parents. maybe you are just openly hostile to christianity, which is your choice, but i just can't see that being true. lots of orphans and other children born out of wedlock are raised through the church and are not stigmatized at all for the acts of their parents.
| QUOTE (Bizarro @ Sep 11 2003, 01:58 PM) |
| as for having a child out of wedlock and being condemned for it, that is just as much breaking a societal norm as a religious one. i find it hard to believe any christian religion would fault a child for the actions of the parents. maybe you are just openly hostile to christianity, which is your choice, but i just can't see that being true. lots of orphans and other children born out of wedlock are raised through the church and are not stigmatized at all for the acts of their parents. |
You may find it hard to believe in the States DS but that sort of thing is quite common here. It wasn't so long ago that the churches wouldn't allow you to be married unless you had been baptised. 30 years ago you couldn't work in certain hospitals unless you were catholic. You couldn't get a job in certain places in the city if you weren't baptised. I don't even want to begin on the way orphans were and still are treated by these so called christian protectors. I have had my children baptised but it wasn't done through want it was done purely to make life easier for them in the future. The same reason my parents had me baptised.
well, i live in the most christian conservative part of the US and we don't have anything like that here. we have a few fringe groups who get together and burn cds from time to time, but no one has ever asked me if i was baptized at a job interview.
there are so many kids born out of wedlock here that i don't think anyone raises an eyebrow anymore. maybe that is why i see the value of religion, because i see what happens to society without it.
there are so many kids born out of wedlock here that i don't think anyone raises an eyebrow anymore. maybe that is why i see the value of religion, because i see what happens to society without it.
Nancy:
My biggest objection to any organized religion is those who believe what they are taught no matter what, do not question any aspects and then attempt to shove those ideals down someone else's throat, threatening condemnation to Hell if their beliefs are not accepted. I guess that is what the definition of "Blind Faith" is, to some degree.
Bizarro:
nope. not all organized religion. you guys act as if religious people in the modern age are some kind of psycho Puritans on a witchhunt and that is just not so. religion is by its definition full of rituals and requirements but they differ from religion to religion. if one is not right for you, another is bound to be closer to your ideals. this is even true amongst christian denominations.
i think Druss summed it up best
********************************************************************
Bizarro, since you chose a portion of my post to quote, I will try again.
It always fascinates me the specific paragraph you quote, and then misconstrue what I've said.
Take a peek at wndycurry's last post. NO offense intended..... Honest. But it is this type of response to which I referred. Quoted right out of the bible, so it "must" be true, no? At least that is the impression I get from her information. I do not consider wndycurry a "psycho Puritan" either, just a very strong believer in her Faith.
I've tried several different religions, none of which has been able to fulfill my needs, nor answer specific questions, important to me, other than telling me, "You have to take this on Faith."
By the way, religion never saved me from myself or anyone else. It was not necessary to do so.
At least we agree that Druss summed it up best.
I'm writing this in my diary, we seldom agree!
My biggest objection to any organized religion is those who believe what they are taught no matter what, do not question any aspects and then attempt to shove those ideals down someone else's throat, threatening condemnation to Hell if their beliefs are not accepted. I guess that is what the definition of "Blind Faith" is, to some degree.
Bizarro:
nope. not all organized religion. you guys act as if religious people in the modern age are some kind of psycho Puritans on a witchhunt and that is just not so. religion is by its definition full of rituals and requirements but they differ from religion to religion. if one is not right for you, another is bound to be closer to your ideals. this is even true amongst christian denominations.
i think Druss summed it up best
********************************************************************
Bizarro, since you chose a portion of my post to quote, I will try again.
It always fascinates me the specific paragraph you quote, and then misconstrue what I've said.
Take a peek at wndycurry's last post. NO offense intended..... Honest. But it is this type of response to which I referred. Quoted right out of the bible, so it "must" be true, no? At least that is the impression I get from her information. I do not consider wndycurry a "psycho Puritan" either, just a very strong believer in her Faith.
I've tried several different religions, none of which has been able to fulfill my needs, nor answer specific questions, important to me, other than telling me, "You have to take this on Faith."
By the way, religion never saved me from myself or anyone else. It was not necessary to do so.
At least we agree that Druss summed it up best.
I'm writing this in my diary, we seldom agree!
the Bible, especially Revelations, is open to interpretation. that is the subject of a dream, if im not mistaken and is not literal truth. anyone who would take that dream literally is suspect to me. it is a guide, not a literal truth.
im sorry for missing her post, Nancy. i know you don't understand me sometimes, but i just like to debate and i look for a place to jump right in. i am not debating with you because i want to make you angry or pick on you, i just like hearing your opinions and trying to change them. i know, its not something most people are open to but sometimes people can change my opinions, so surely i can change theirs too. i used to be an atheist- not just an atheist but a rabid one. i converted a friend of mine from his faith when i was younger. he was a very devout christian and we always debated about God. well, he became gay a year or so after becoming an atheist. that is his choice, but in some way i feel a little guilty for demolishing his faith and opening him to the idea that there is no God. im not anti-gay, its just that i believe he would not have chosen that path without my interference in his faith and i saw how it affected his life(in lots of negative ways i would rather not go into). also, i came to realize that God was working in my own life. i suffered a lot when i was younger, and i held a lot of anger towards God for that. i prayed a lot as a child and teenager, but one year i was a total outcast in school and i lost faith in everything: God, friendship, success, etc. i remember wanting to curse God at one point, after many months of misery and heartache, but i just couldn't do it. i began praying again and i came back to faith after being an atheist for around 8 years. i began reading the New Testament and the story of Jesus inspired me. i also read the book of Job from the Old Testament over and over again. i came to have a stronger faith than even the people i argued against for all those years. if that can happen to me, surely i can convert someone to see a different point of view.
i sometimes wonder if certain people aren't just opposed to religion for the sake of being opposed to it? i know i used to be. when it comes down to it, everything we believe about God must be taken on faith, so what is so wrong with having a faith? when you find yourself backed into a dark corner and all hope is lost in your life, sometimes that faith is all that will keep you from falling into total despair. that faith is your rock. its like exercise for your will and eventually you can smile in the face of anything knowing it wont break you because your will is strong. that is why i have faith. whether its fact or fiction, it is better than not having one.
im sorry for missing her post, Nancy. i know you don't understand me sometimes, but i just like to debate and i look for a place to jump right in. i am not debating with you because i want to make you angry or pick on you, i just like hearing your opinions and trying to change them. i know, its not something most people are open to but sometimes people can change my opinions, so surely i can change theirs too. i used to be an atheist- not just an atheist but a rabid one. i converted a friend of mine from his faith when i was younger. he was a very devout christian and we always debated about God. well, he became gay a year or so after becoming an atheist. that is his choice, but in some way i feel a little guilty for demolishing his faith and opening him to the idea that there is no God. im not anti-gay, its just that i believe he would not have chosen that path without my interference in his faith and i saw how it affected his life(in lots of negative ways i would rather not go into). also, i came to realize that God was working in my own life. i suffered a lot when i was younger, and i held a lot of anger towards God for that. i prayed a lot as a child and teenager, but one year i was a total outcast in school and i lost faith in everything: God, friendship, success, etc. i remember wanting to curse God at one point, after many months of misery and heartache, but i just couldn't do it. i began praying again and i came back to faith after being an atheist for around 8 years. i began reading the New Testament and the story of Jesus inspired me. i also read the book of Job from the Old Testament over and over again. i came to have a stronger faith than even the people i argued against for all those years. if that can happen to me, surely i can convert someone to see a different point of view.
i sometimes wonder if certain people aren't just opposed to religion for the sake of being opposed to it? i know i used to be. when it comes down to it, everything we believe about God must be taken on faith, so what is so wrong with having a faith? when you find yourself backed into a dark corner and all hope is lost in your life, sometimes that faith is all that will keep you from falling into total despair. that faith is your rock. its like exercise for your will and eventually you can smile in the face of anything knowing it wont break you because your will is strong. that is why i have faith. whether its fact or fiction, it is better than not having one.
oh........... why can't we just all get along
The Puritans believed in predestination, which meant that God decided our fate when he created man. Puritans thought they were God's chosen people, so no matter how much they sinned, they were going to heaven, because it was decided by God's will before they even existed. So basically, the Puritans sinned as much as they wanted
But predestination means free will does not exist, and that's a depressing view on life in my opinion. Free will all the way baby
But predestination means free will does not exist, and that's a depressing view on life in my opinion. Free will all the way baby
| QUOTE (wndycurry @ Sep 12 2003, 04:38 PM) |
| oh........... why can't we just all get along |
I was just thinking how well everyone was discussing there beliefs in a non agresive non judgemental fashion ... I think we are getting along, because both sides of the story are teaching people something new and what a nice job everyone is doing of it too ...
Bizarro.. Thank you for that extensive explanation. You are right about one thing, I do have a difficult time understanding you.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with having "faith".... I have faith in God, He has pulled me through many bumps in the road, and as far as I know, He is still on my side. I am a Christian, who prefers to deal with My Maker one on one, as opposed to following a preset standard, rules and regulations set down by those who interpret His rules. I have never been a athesist, but do not object to anyone else's beliefs at all. That is their choice. I do object to others attempting to convert ME to their beliefs. I don't think I'm a lost soul.
I feel I am a fairly decent person, compassionate, caring about people and animals. I abhore lies, deception and dishonesty. I "do unto others" and pay attention to common courtesy.
I guess the bottom line is this. I have to live with myself each and everyday. With all of my medical problems that prevent me from having a "normal" life, I could lash out at God for "allowing" this to happen. It isn't God's fault, of that I'm sure.
quick comment on your statement about your friend who "became gay." Without causing UM to melt, that in my opinion isn't possible. BUT.... I'll leave that for another day and another "new topic."
Thanks again Bizarro....... shake hands?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with having "faith".... I have faith in God, He has pulled me through many bumps in the road, and as far as I know, He is still on my side. I am a Christian, who prefers to deal with My Maker one on one, as opposed to following a preset standard, rules and regulations set down by those who interpret His rules. I have never been a athesist, but do not object to anyone else's beliefs at all. That is their choice. I do object to others attempting to convert ME to their beliefs. I don't think I'm a lost soul.
I feel I am a fairly decent person, compassionate, caring about people and animals. I abhore lies, deception and dishonesty. I "do unto others" and pay attention to common courtesy.
I guess the bottom line is this. I have to live with myself each and everyday. With all of my medical problems that prevent me from having a "normal" life, I could lash out at God for "allowing" this to happen. It isn't God's fault, of that I'm sure.
quick comment on your statement about your friend who "became gay." Without causing UM to melt, that in my opinion isn't possible. BUT.... I'll leave that for another day and another "new topic."
Thanks again Bizarro....... shake hands?
Kismit...... Your enthusiam and positive attitude really keep me coming back here.
I think we do fairly well too! Many topics are "Hot" and can really heat up the keyboards. Thank you!
I think we do fairly well too! Many topics are "Hot" and can really heat up the keyboards. Thank you!
well, what im saying is that he was straight and dating girls while he was a christian and then after he became an atheist he just decided to come out. i guess he feared God before and when he no longer believed he just followed his feelings. lots of men are closet homosexuals that live a straight lifestyle because of religion or society, but in his case becoming an atheist was the thing that brought him out of the closet. that ended up changing his personality entirely and he is one of the most immoral people i know(not because he is gay but because he is just plain disgustingly immoral now).
i have no problem with anything you said except what you said about someone trying to convert you. that is one of the things i believe in so of course i am going to at least try, but im not going to harass anyone who isnt interested. you may not believe youre a lost soul but according to my beliefs you are and Jesus says we should preach you the word. since youre not interested, i won't even bother you but i will pray for your soul along with Kismit's and many other people i know.
i have no problem with anything you said except what you said about someone trying to convert you. that is one of the things i believe in so of course i am going to at least try, but im not going to harass anyone who isnt interested. you may not believe youre a lost soul but according to my beliefs you are and Jesus says we should preach you the word. since youre not interested, i won't even bother you but i will pray for your soul along with Kismit's and many other people i know.
One last comment, then... I'm outta here.
| QUOTE |
| i have no problem with anything you said except what you said about someone trying to convert you. that is one of the things i believe in so of course i am going to at least try, but im not going to harass anyone who isnt interested. you may not believe youre a lost soul but according to my beliefs you are and Jesus says we should preach you the word. since youre not interested, i won't even bother you but i will pray for your soul along with Kismit's and many other people i know |
Either I am incapable of making myself clear, or you are incapable of understanding what I say. I said I am a Christian, I believe in Jesus Christ. I honor His word and philosophy. However, I do not need to sit in a Church each Sunday to be told I am a sinner and to repent. Am I a snob? Perhaps. Honest? Yes.
End of speech.
Ah, where to begin. Let's see, according to the Bible, only 144,000 people are going to heaven. Sounds like an awful low number to me, considering how many people have come and gone on this earth. What kind of loving God, unconditionally, even, according to the New Testament, says, "Now, these are the only ones getting through the gates, sorry, the rest of you are just S.O.L.?" Not the one I believe in. What's the point of being good if you're not gonna get to heaven anyway? And by just ceasing to exist as punishment? Dunno about that one either, if you don't exist, you don't care, just blinking out is not an option, not according to my belief system, which I'll get to later. Now, for the good folks being born again to live on a new, ultragroovy earth, that's almost there.
Now, I grew up going to church every Sunday, my mom taught Sunday school, I still consider myself to be a Christian, if for no other reason than it's convenient, and I still have most of the values I've been brought up with. Loyalty, honesty, being, for the most part, a kind and caring soul to the best of my abilities. Even though my Sunday school class voted me "Most likely to become a terrorist" not because I was a bad kid, but because I have never in my life been afraid to say what I think, no matter how stupid, absurd, or otherwise. And you know kids, you don't fit in, you must be bad. In fact, to get even more specific, I am a Lutheran, because my grandfather was, and he still got to take part in our Indian ceremonies, which I regret never getting the chance to ask him about.
Okay, on to my views on faith. You have to earn your faith. Your beliefs have no value at all unless they are challenged. If you've looked at every possible option, and you still ascribe to the same religion you started out with, congratulations, you earned it, and you deserve to call yourself a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever you feel is right for you. Most of the time, as happened with me, you change some of your beliefs, some of the traditions you grew up with just don't fit anymore. I've actually added bits and pieces of some of the other religions I've studied to what I already believe, such as my belief in reincarnation, and karma. I think, and I've said this in another post, that either all religions are right, or they are all wrong. Think of all the aspects of our Bible stories that parallel other tales in other religions, the story of Jesus, the Flood, Adam and Eve, all these take place over and over, in almost every religion that's come down the pike. Just different hats on the same scarecrow.
And saying that we are all born to sin, that we have no choice, I find this rather offensive. We always have a choice. We make choices every day. Saying we have no choice simply absolves us of any responsibility, and that doesn't sit well with me. There is always a choice. That we know we will occasionally screw up is just admitting that we are, in fact, human, and just as fallable as anyone else.
For anyone who's actually made it through this post, thanks for reading, and I hope I've made a few points. There will be funny material and laughter dubbed in later.
Now, I grew up going to church every Sunday, my mom taught Sunday school, I still consider myself to be a Christian, if for no other reason than it's convenient, and I still have most of the values I've been brought up with. Loyalty, honesty, being, for the most part, a kind and caring soul to the best of my abilities. Even though my Sunday school class voted me "Most likely to become a terrorist" not because I was a bad kid, but because I have never in my life been afraid to say what I think, no matter how stupid, absurd, or otherwise. And you know kids, you don't fit in, you must be bad. In fact, to get even more specific, I am a Lutheran, because my grandfather was, and he still got to take part in our Indian ceremonies, which I regret never getting the chance to ask him about.
Okay, on to my views on faith. You have to earn your faith. Your beliefs have no value at all unless they are challenged. If you've looked at every possible option, and you still ascribe to the same religion you started out with, congratulations, you earned it, and you deserve to call yourself a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever you feel is right for you. Most of the time, as happened with me, you change some of your beliefs, some of the traditions you grew up with just don't fit anymore. I've actually added bits and pieces of some of the other religions I've studied to what I already believe, such as my belief in reincarnation, and karma. I think, and I've said this in another post, that either all religions are right, or they are all wrong. Think of all the aspects of our Bible stories that parallel other tales in other religions, the story of Jesus, the Flood, Adam and Eve, all these take place over and over, in almost every religion that's come down the pike. Just different hats on the same scarecrow.
And saying that we are all born to sin, that we have no choice, I find this rather offensive. We always have a choice. We make choices every day. Saying we have no choice simply absolves us of any responsibility, and that doesn't sit well with me. There is always a choice. That we know we will occasionally screw up is just admitting that we are, in fact, human, and just as fallable as anyone else.
For anyone who's actually made it through this post, thanks for reading, and I hope I've made a few points. There will be funny material and laughter dubbed in later.
Snuffy... I'm very impressed at what u wrote and found myself agreeing with a lot of what you wrote.| QUOTE |
| Most of the time, as happened with me, you change some of your beliefs, some of the traditions you grew up with just don't fit anymore. |
This is very true, my wiccan belief, has been influenced by Amerindian Shaman's, Eastern philosophy, Egyptian and Celtic traditions. so a bit of a mismatch but it works for me.
| QUOTE |
| And saying that we are all born to sin, that we have no choice, I find this rather offensive. We always have a choice. We make choices every day. Saying we have no choice simply absolves us of any responsibility, and that doesn't sit well with me. There is always a choice. That we know we will occasionally screw up is just admitting that we are, in fact, human, and just as fallable as anyone else. |
That made me
and hit the nail firmly on the head esp the last line....To err is to be human... 
Holy Cow!! THUD........ Bingo!!!
Snuffy? CW? You have both said so elequently what I've been so inadequate in expressing. Finally!!! Thank you both for summing up little ole me!! Whew...
Snuffy? CW? You have both said so elequently what I've been so inadequate in expressing. Finally!!! Thank you both for summing up little ole me!! Whew...
That perception of heaven and hell is a leftover of our middleage christianity, always trying to control his members and hence continuing having the power. There is a law of cause and effect. That's all.
I believe people go to hell, but not for ever. It's like putting a toddler in time-out, you put him in there so he learns his lesson, then you let him out. If you keep him in there it defeats the purpose of it.
Good point
I don't believe in hell as a permanent place or state of mind, neither do I believe in Heaven as a place for a privelidged few. If there is any God and/or afterlife my belief is it's a kind of spiritual proggression, from the lowest to the highest.
I try to respect all religious beliefs, I was brought up but no longer am a Catholic, but I just feel that most religions are 95% man made dogma and 5% a glimpse of something greater. I think all of us are at one with God and our journey, either through many lifetimes or spiritual existences is a journey back to that place. No one is excluded in the end.
I try to respect all religious beliefs, I was brought up but no longer am a Catholic, but I just feel that most religions are 95% man made dogma and 5% a glimpse of something greater. I think all of us are at one with God and our journey, either through many lifetimes or spiritual existences is a journey back to that place. No one is excluded in the end.
peachykeane........ First of all, Welcome Aboard! Enjoy your time here.
Secondly? I agree with you completely. Very, very well said!
Secondly? I agree with you completely. Very, very well said!
I once saw a sign on the side of a church that read: “Come to church, because hell is very hot!”
Strange how different people interpret the scriptures in different ways. Nowhere in the Bible does it talk about Hell, being a physical place, but like has been said, it refers to the soul being one with the body.
If not, then why would the bible state in Eccl 9:5 “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” Would it say that if you were burning somewhere, because I think you would be conscious of it!
In Ps 146:4, reads: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish!”
Just a few scriptures I dug up for you to ponder on!
Strange how different people interpret the scriptures in different ways. Nowhere in the Bible does it talk about Hell, being a physical place, but like has been said, it refers to the soul being one with the body.
If not, then why would the bible state in Eccl 9:5 “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” Would it say that if you were burning somewhere, because I think you would be conscious of it!
In Ps 146:4, reads: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish!”
Just a few scriptures I dug up for you to ponder on!
"Jesus had to die to enter hell. Jesus went to hell for 3 days after he died on the cross. Jesus returned from hell 3 days later with the keys to hell and death.
JESUS OF NAZARETH WENT TO HELL FOR 3 DAYS AFTER THE CROSS
Many people don't know it, but Jesus went to hell for three days right after he died on the cross? Jesus had to die to enter hell, satans kingdom. In Matthew we read "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Mat. 12:40 (KJV)
Remember, when Jesus was dying on the Cross, Jesus told the thief on the cross next to him "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise". Luke 23:43 (KJV). He didn't say "Today shalt thou be with me in Heaven". Why, because the thief wasn't saved. The thief never accepted Christ as his savior. Jesus was going to see him in the "Paradise of satans Hell". The thief was going down into the bowels of the Earth, to the paradise of satan with Jesus. They were both going to satans hell. Jesus went there to free the captives.
This Paradise of satans Hell was where all mankind were held captive by satan until Christ died and conquered death and the grave. Jesus went to hell for 3 days to free the captives and returned with the keys to death and hell. Jesus tells us "I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death". (Rev 1:18 KJV)
King David the Psalmist knew he was going to Hell after his physical death until Christ would come for him. King David wrote "For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou has delivered my soul from the lowest hell." (Psa. 86:13 KJV) "
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JESUS OF NAZARETH WENT TO HELL FOR 3 DAYS AFTER THE CROSS
Many people don't know it, but Jesus went to hell for three days right after he died on the cross? Jesus had to die to enter hell, satans kingdom. In Matthew we read "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Mat. 12:40 (KJV)
Remember, when Jesus was dying on the Cross, Jesus told the thief on the cross next to him "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise". Luke 23:43 (KJV). He didn't say "Today shalt thou be with me in Heaven". Why, because the thief wasn't saved. The thief never accepted Christ as his savior. Jesus was going to see him in the "Paradise of satans Hell". The thief was going down into the bowels of the Earth, to the paradise of satan with Jesus. They were both going to satans hell. Jesus went there to free the captives.
This Paradise of satans Hell was where all mankind were held captive by satan until Christ died and conquered death and the grave. Jesus went to hell for 3 days to free the captives and returned with the keys to death and hell. Jesus tells us "I am he that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death". (Rev 1:18 KJV)
King David the Psalmist knew he was going to Hell after his physical death until Christ would come for him. King David wrote "For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou has delivered my soul from the lowest hell." (Psa. 86:13 KJV) "
clicky
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