This is not something to start a huge debate or argument... but comment as you like and share your opinions... this is something that a friend of mine shared with me and I thought it would be a good topic here on the Spirituality vs Skepticism forum...

This is one of the best explanations of why God allows pain and suffering that I have seen:

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed.

As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation.

They talked about so many things and various subjects.

When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said:

"I don't believe that God exists."

"Why do you say that?" asked the customer.

"Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist.

Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people?

Would there be abandoned children?

If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain.

I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things."

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want
to start an argument.

The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy,
dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt.

The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said
to the barber: "You know what? Barbers do not exist."

"How can you say that?" asked the surprised barber.

"I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!"

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did, there
would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that
man outside."

"Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to me."

"Exactly!" affirmed the customer. "That's the point! God, too, DOES exist!

That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for help.

That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world."

I do not agree with that assumption. Do children that die at such a young age turn away from God, is that why they are being punished? I don’t think so. People are not being punished for turning away from God; it’s just the cruel world around us.

I don’t believe in the God in the bible talks about, because I don’t believe in the bible. I think most of it is fiction. I do believe in a higher being, someone had to create us.

This is just my opinion.

Interesting. But i have to disagree. According to that text, people feel pain because they don't come to God. Then people who come to him should not feel pain, we know it isn't true.

Actually I think that the explanation is much simpler. You have to see it from a biological perspective. Why do people feel physical pain? Because, if we didn't, if we damage ourselves we would continue doing that because we wouldn't regret. For example, you accidentaly put your hand on boiling water, if you didn't feel pain you would only take your hand out when there was nothing else. However, if you feel pain, as soon as you put your hand in the boiling water you will take it out. The same applies for social relations. You will feel pain if you loose someone you love, then you will do everything to protect him. It is more a matter of survival.

If the question was why does god allow bad things to happen to us then the answer would be different. Life would be meaningless, boring and tasteless (do you say it in english?). I mean, what's the fun of a game where you always win and nobody loses?

That's a good story, but it doesn't explain how or why innocent Christians die for no reason (shootings, plane crashes, etc)...

Hmm...

--Jon

Huh,

Well, if he was dirty and unkempt with a long beard and out on the street, he was probably poor and homeless. He had no money for the barber. Another scare tactic for tithing.....

Good post Nxt! Maybe should have used suffering? Semantics, they love to play with it. Ignore the abstract point, focus on an inane aspect of the literal, but if you're going for literal they will suddenly switch to an abstract tangent, mixed conviently with a literal. Doesn't matter, long as you're disagreed with and attempted to be shown, even if inaccurate, a fool.


Actually, the answer to "Why do people feel physical pain?" (which isn't even the point of the OP) is because nerve endings transmit a signal of pain to the brain which then tells you the location of the pain. Without nerves we could stick our hand in boiling water and not bat an eye.
Maybe the *purpose* of us having the nerve endings is as you say, I'd agree with that.

But the cause of suffering? The reason for the cause of misery? The Buddahist idea of it.


That's assuming it's a punishment for them. Good/Bad? I reject that assumption as... I just don't know. What's the purpose of a living will?


Yes, and the church is only a building, only. Fear cannot mean respect. Literal? Abstract? It goes right over the head as chin to the chest tunnel vision dictates, anything relating to "Christianity" is evil. There just cannot be a positive message to Nxt's post. CANNOT! NO! The guy that got his haircut is just a bigot against poor people, yeah that's the ticket!

rofl, I enjoyed your post Nxt.

"Innocent Christians" die because apparently that's generally one of the things that happens to you at some point after birth. That's a little Literal/Abstract inversion there...

well i agree on a lot what you said but i beleive that God does not let people suffer becouse if he did, he whould not be so perfect in all ways i think there is another reason you just have to find it.thanks may God love you all if you let him

Death is connected to suffering.
Without death there is no room for new life.
Without new life there is no opportunity to evolve.
That which cannot evolve is doomed to extinction.

imo. pain and evil are seen as 'bad' by many but by whos or what standards do we know they are bad. this points toward a higher standard of goodness by which we compair the 'bad'. God is good and death and evil only exist because sin exists. when we reach heaven were sin has been dealt with there will be no more sin, and death and evil. does any one know of any thing bad that happens humanity that is not a consequence of 'sin'.(bearing in mind that disease is seen a consequence of sin, maybe not of that individual but the fact that it has any effect on humanity is because of sin). drink driving deaths, murders, rapes, thefts, fights, jealousy, adultery, all cause pain sooner or later.
Pain =sin. imo
By the way i am not saying that someone catches something like AIDS as a result of some sin they have committed, more that AIDS exists and has power over people because sin exists.

In my belief, there will come a time that death will die.

In christianity that idea is central. Dying and being ressurection death has no more dominion on Christ and those who trust in him. Death has in effect died on the cross with Christ.

Think about it,

If we had no pain

no suffering

If we had everything

we wanted

no pain no suffering


Then what would be the point of life, if we always got everything we wanted, or there was no pain, we would take good things for granted, we would take everything for granted, and we might end up destroying ourselfs.

Decision and free will is what causes suffering not God, When a man decides to kill someone, God does not do this, when a women is sick, it is called a cross.

We all carry our own crosses, if we didn't have them we couldn't appreiciate the good things in life.

I'm not religious but even if I were, I see no logic in that, no matter how cute that story may seem.




I think that is pretty much what they were saying, without the use of the words "nerve" and "endings". They were on the same track either way.

If you don't feel physical pain, then you would be incapable of neutralising that pain before any serious harm is done (obviously doesn't apply to all cases, e.g. getting hit by a bus - it's possible you're already out of luck on that part).

Yes, there is that. I also believe this reasoning (something I read): You can't appreciate the good without experiencing the bad. In other words, we would know no different.

Now that's a question I wouldn't mind reading a 'plausible' answer to.

Yes. That's something I've heard too, lol, but it's not what they meant (their example - plane crash). Why did God(?) allow a Christian (someone who obviously DOES look to God(?)) to die during a time when they looked/asked for God's(?) help?

From a non-religious point of view, I agree.





The way I see it is, if "God(?) is all seeing and all knowing", then people wouldn't have to ask God(?) for help. So, by saying that pain is a result of not looking to God(?), then that's the equivalent of saying that he's punishing us. Again, if he's all seeing and all knowing, then what reason does God(?) have to turn his head?

God(?) is all forgiving (supposedly) - then why doesn't he forgive those who don't turn to him, and help those people out?



I guess this was yet another guy whom God(?) let pass by. One of many that he didn't "see" or "know" about (notice).

There's a balance of all life. There are the positives and negatives that all equal out balanced.
But it was not like that(for those who believe in God), I suppose you know the story of Adam and Eve....

Oh, and wanna go out baby???

As much as I love N2H....the analogy doesn't fit. People who do come to God still have pain and suffering.

Then the question is again Why does God allow that to happen? Why do bad things happen to good people?

'Tis the price we have all paid from the beginning. The price of disobedience to God before the books of time were even opened to be pinned.

haha, what he said....

Exactly!

Hmm...

If any Christians want to agree with accepting God = no pain, I have my gun very shiney and oiled up for some good times. Just drop me a PM and we can test your theory.

I believe it's all part of testing our faith. I believe he let's thing flow as if he didn't exist, only interveining when it's really needed. For the most part I believe he just observes us, and watches to see who will still stand by his side and who denies him. My best friend was shot in the heart when I was 13, he was 12, but that didn't phase my faith in God not one bit.

lol if any Christian tries to claim that (at least during our time on earth), just point them to Job and ask if those boils hurt. No need to encourage the ones that want to shoot us already.

I'm sorry about you're friend, Zero.

If you don't mind me asking, did your friend believe in God(?). The reason I ask is because, if they did, why do you think God(?) allowed this to happen? Pain or not, what do you think the possible reasoning would be? Do you think your friend's shooting was down to a "testing of faith"? I personally would have thought of this event to be a time where he "intervened when needed".

EDIT: Sorry, I'm not trying to offend you in any way. I'm just trying to understand how your theory links to the event.

Interesting analogy. However, it only deals with half the story. There are two forms of pain and suffering in this world. Inflicted suffering, and natural suffering. Inflicted suffering is caused by human choice. a gunman shoots someone, a drunk driver runs over someone, a thug robs someone... that kind of thing. If everyone turned to God, these things would not happen. And turning to God is no guarantee that you will not be affected by someone who has not turned to God.

However, there is another pain, natural pain. Deaths, break-ups, natural disasters, plane crashes, etc. These are a natural part of life.

So I think the barber analogy only works for inflicted suffering.

But this is just my opinion.

Regards, PA

yea i like most of your idea. i dont have much to say about why god allows suffering, except maybe to keep the world balanced. too much of anything is bad. If the entire world was good with no sufering or deaths, we'd all just be heading for hell on earth even faster. Frankily i think the suffering and deaths are some ways to help "clean up" the earth.


i didnt put 100% though into this, just rambled a bit. no offense
words of an amateur

As far as I know, he believed in God. Things happen, that's the point of living in an imperfect Godless world. I don't believe he stops much from happening, he just lets things happen naturaly. He's waiting untill it's time, then he'll step in.

As for when/if God steps in, I can't pretend to know how God thinks, so I really can't tell you when or why would be a good reason for him to do so. So my best answer is, I don't know. And I really don't care, lol. I trust his judgement.

Firstly I'd like to say I liked the story. However I tend to think of suffering as not only a balance but as a learning experience. I think if there was no suffering or hard times as well than every moment would be just another moment. But when there is suffering and hard times than I think not only does it help us appreciate the good times but it makes the good times great moments instead of just another moment.

I cannot imagine what lessons would be learned in this life without suffering. I often asked "why" when I had to endure suffering but looking back in hindsight from each event I can see the importance of the strength and humiltiy I learned from each event.

Suffering is a judgement made about a painful moment, not all pain is suffering we choose to call it that for ourselves. In order to have joy there must be pain, many including myself see my painful moments as great gifts from life, i would not be who i am today withoutt he challenges and I welcome them, a great understanding and awareness is in place before this is deeply understood. namaste sheri

Here's my thoughts..I really don't care why there's pain and suffering in this world..
Complex,eh?
Allow me to elaborate a bit before you take me for a complete jerk..
If you believe in God and that he either created the Universe or just kicked off the Big Bang (or whatever your individual beliefs); well; if he caused all that to happen and created whole solar systems, and all life as we know it..
I really don't think it's my job to be expecting him to bandage every cut, and stop every killing..There's plenty of wondrous and good things on the planet to be happy about; just worrying about the bad; clutching your fists and crying "Why God, why?" seems not only presumptuous, but also downright ungrateful to me..
You may not have much, but you were given life; and where there's life there is the potential for just about anything..That's awesome enough to keep me satisfied..

Great post, and I agree.

Well said, Sheri

I can see that some would think that story is sweet and makes sense, but to me, it does seem to point directly toward the whole fear of God thing (believe in/stand close to god and you won't have suffering) which I don't agree with.

Personally, I don't think god is some big guy with a magic wand, sitting on a cloud and dragging people from good to bad and back again. Like Sherri said about her struggles helping her grow into the person she is, I was reminded of the old phrase "That which does not kill you, makes you stronger." Without pain and sufferring, no one would ever grow.

Well said!

The Earth is a giant playground- we're all here to have fun with each other- yet at the same time be careful because accidents happen- and looking on is God our supervisor.
If we get hurt we blame God for not keeping an eye out on us- when it was infact us being irresponsible. The poor or less off always seem to be more devoted to God and have higher hopes in him- as they understand that the life they've craved and wanted isn't going to take place here on earth- while the better off people forget about God- those that are poor and humble are the ones that will ultimately have the reward over all that are lucky this time around. Pain is sad to see- but it honestly makes the spirit stronger..In this hectic and crazy fast paced life all we really have to do is...

"..Stand still and consider the wondrous works of God..."- Job 37:14

Those who disobey God are having their reward now, but we'll get ours later.

Thats true- and those that have their reward now and believe in God are truely blessed- i just hope they appreciate what they've got. I dont have much but im better off than so many, and i thank God that i'm so lucky- but i promise to him that no matter how much money i have i will always be charitable and humble in my attitude- many let money take control of their lives and dont use it wisely- not to mention the new "too good for you" attitude that grows on them..Its sad.

To be fair, I don't think "the poor" and "the better-off" comment is true. I know many people whom are "better-off" and God(?) still remains a huge part in thier lives.

Yeah i understand and thats true- many rich people are fantastic at heart and as i said they are truely blessed. . Its just that some people that suddenly make money change- and not for the good...I've seen it happen, a friend of mine won like $10,000+ from the lotto and didnt wanna give any to his brother and it broke off their relationship and hes only 24...Money could grow into greed and break family and friendships with changes in behaviour- which in essence draws one away from God.

I would hope so, but apparently God(?) is all forgiving? What do people mean when they say that? Could we kill someone today and then be forgiven as we're chauffeured through the 'Pearly Gates'?

I never understand that quote.

Yes, I've heard stories like that and it's awful how something as materialistic as money can do that to some people. The sad thing is, it's God(?) whom they turn to when the money is gone and they've thrown away their friendships due to their greed.

God can see right through us- and few are genuinely sorry- when apologising for a "sin" or what not. Even though God is forgiving- he's not going to fall for the false prayers of so many who commit something evil- pray- and do it all over again..(almost like a wash, rinse and repeat cycle).

When thou prayest, rather let thy heart be without words than thy words without heart.

God listens to your heart and not the words that come out of your mouth. If we kill someone today and if in our heart we are truely not sorry- then our all forgiving God wont forgive you...Its not a contradiction at all in my opinion- because if youre evil enough to just kill someone- i doubt your kind enough to be truely sorry.

Okay, I can accept that.

I belive that people do not suffer because they don't follow God.. I follow God or at least do my very best to.. and some of the best people I know follow God, but they experience pain. I htink pain is just apart of the life we live in. Possibly apart of the orginal sin Adam and Eve committed. I doubt the first humans suffered pain until they sinned. As skin color is passed down, so if the punishment for orginal sin?? This is just something to speculate on ... o by the way.. its my first post

A big old welcome to you then Gods Forever Servant! I hope you enjoy your stay in this accomodating board of skeptics and believers.

^ Same.


I still can't comprehend our pain through Adam and Eve sinning. That, in my opinion, is like giving a kid a smack around the head because their brother ate the chocolate from the fridge.

I never understood it either, now that you come to mention it If God is all forgiving then why is it said by christians (well some of them) that if you go against the bible in any way you will be condemned?

Exactly!

I can see where Ramster83 is coming from, but in my opinion, if God(?) is all forgiving, there would be no need for Hell.

Thats true...hey I never thought of that....but it makes perfect sense.......if he is all forgivng whats hell got to do with it


LOL that reminds me of an old Tina Turner Song - Whats love got to do with it

Lets all sing along...

Whats hell got to do, got to do with it
Who needs a hell when God is forgiving *busts a move*

To other Christians those are considered idol worshippers.
Those who worship a book made by man as a divine, infallible, perfect creation just like a god.

I think that the original Christian concept of hell is one of the most distorted and unexplained aspects of spirituality in the bible.
Jesus warned of attachments to this world and that it could lead to everlasting fire, or hell. Unfortunately the orginal concept of hell as a spiritual state degenerated into the belief of hell being an actual physical location (pagan influence played a big part in this aka Hades and Helos).

Here then is what Hell is really all about, and it is about personal choice.

In a sermon given by Shakyamuni, he conveyed his essential outlook on the nature and cause of suffering. On this occasion, Shakyamuni ascended a mountain summit together with his recently converted disciples. Gazing at the view below, Shakyamuni began to expound: “Indeed, this world is burning with many and various fires. There are fires of greed fires of hatred fires of foolishness, fires of infatuation and egoism, fires of decrepitude, sickness and death, fires of sorrow, lamentation, suffering and agony.”

What he was trying to convey was his understanding that the phenomenal world that we inhabit is engulfed in the “fires” of suffering originating in deluded impulses. These fires of greed, hatred and ignorance, raging fiercely in the hearts of people, are the basic cause of the suffering of human existence. Therefore, Shakyamuni urges us first and foremost to come to a clear understanding of the root cause of suffering.

Here, the deluded impulse of “greed” indicates uncontrolled desire for, and attachment to, material comforts, for wealth, power or fame. Desires of this kind grow and multiply without cease, and since their fulfillment cannot bring true and lasting happiness, a person in their grip is condemned to endless torment and frustration.

Lol. *Grabs a lighter, flicks it on and sways in the dark*


But the bible, itself, is anything but perfect. In fact, it's full of many contradictions and judgments - something I don't believe the Christian law is supposed to be about. But hey, yet another contradiction there!

It has a lot in common with our Constitution and the people who interpreted the teachings over the years have a lot in common with our Surpreme Court in history.