Debate Suggestion by ParanoidAndroid

Should we be allowed to spank our children - is it a viable punishment?

Looking for one participant who is against spanking.

Hmmm...I'll be for spanking.

Sounds like we have a debate on our hands!

Firefemme1202 will be debating against spanking as a viable form of punishment while Qarrah will be debating that spanking is a viable form of punsihment for children.


This will be a 1v1 formal debate.
An Introduction, 5 bodily posts and a conclusion from each participant. No Flaming, bad manners or profantities will be tolerated. Please make sure you quote ALL your sources!

Please be aware that:

There is a point deduction for debaters who fail to make a post within the 7 day time frame. The deductions will be 2 points for every day the participant fails to post after the 7 days.

This is to ensure that debates continue in a timely fashion. If for any reason you cannot post within the 7 days, please ensure that you let myself , Tiddlyjen or Lottie know to avoid having the points taken off your debate.

If, however the participant does not then attempt to make a post for up to 2 weeks after the 7 day rule has started an immediate disqualification will occur.

Good luck Aztec.

Introduction:
Spanking is a form of punishment used by almost every parent at sometime in their time of raising their child. Spanking usually is done with a belt or the parent uses their hand.

I believe that spanking becomes a problem when it is used incorrectly (the parent is spanking their child to vent anger at what the child did or something else that happened, the parent uses spanking to feel powerful, the parent uses spanking when they are drunk or extremely angry)

If the child becomes scared of the parent or gets badly hurt from spanking the parent should not spank their child and definetly find another way to get their point across positively. It is a problem in the U.S. because spanking is mostly used incorrectly. I agree there are better and more efficient ways to punish a child, but if spanking works for the parent and the child understands what they did wrong, then it is fine. It all depends on the situation and how calm and mature the adult is when they want to punish their child. There shouldn't be guilt after a parent spanks their child. I think spanking should only be reserved for a serious punishment.

You can go here to see what other people think about spanking.


(BTW this is the first time I've done or started a debate so just tell me if I did something wrong.)

Whoo this is definetly a hard thing to argue, because I agree with you. But I'm debating so I'll do it.

I'm sure your kids benefited from your choice of punishment. The debate isn't what is a viable punishment, the debate is if spanking is a viable punishment. Spanking is a viable punishment when it doesn't veer on abuse. Spanking itself isn't child abuse and when done mildly and controlled it's just an easier way to get your point across to a toddler who won't understand you very much if you just tell them, "No, you do not do that!" They will do it again because they see the punishment as you just yelling at them and that isn't that bad is it?
Some toddlers are naturally...very bad as in they won't listen to you and they break things and are out of control.
Let's reinforce a mild spanking to the child and tell them firmly if they do it again they will get a spanking. We can't always be nice to our children. You need to be the adult in the situation and you need to show that you're the one in control, not the child. Let's say you yell at the child. The child yells back and as both of you can do that does that show you're in control?
How about putting them in time out? Some children will just get back up from the time out and follow you or whatever. What I'm getting across is the fact that spanking reinforces your control as parent and for the out of control child is a viable punishment.
Now, continuing to spank your child after the age of seven isn't viable because they aren't at the same stage in their life. This is the time where you will take something important away from them as punishment.
I am a teenager and that is how my parents did it. Spanking as punishment when we were toddlers then grounding as we became adolescents. This is the best way to do it because I didn't want to be spanked like a little kid when I was 11, I felt I was beyond that.
Once again it all depends on the maturity of the adult and how they use spanking as their choice of punishment.

I am afraid I must disqualify jazzrequest from this debate and open her position to any other UM members who wish to participate.

The position will be that you are against spanking as a viable form of punishment.

Still looking for one person to oppose Quarrah.

The position will be that you are against spanking as a viable form of punishment.

If you wish to join this debate you will have to make an introduction and 1st post to catch up. However we will grant you extra time to do this .

I will be happy to debate against spanking.

Introduction

Spanking has become a common occurence in today's households as a form of punishment. Discipline, however, should be a form of learning, not a way to scare the child. Children must respect the parent, not fear the parent and although many parents will not physically hurt the child, this does not mean that a mark wasn't left.

The repercussions of spanking far outweigh the good that comes from it. A parent must always realize the reason behind the discipline and devise a "punishment that fits the crime." Spanking causes the child to relate phsycial hitting with a way to get what you want, and as a parent, this is not something we want the child to assume. The child may fear the spankings and as a result, not do the bad thing for a while, but this doesn't teach the child WHY they were spanked. Children correlate more with the fact that they got spanked rather than the reason they were punished. If they are to learn effectively what is right from wrong, we can't send them mixed signals that violence and hitting is wrong, but parents can spank their kids. Kids can also misunderstand the spanking and take their aggression out in this way on other kids when they are feeling upset or angry.

A parent wants their child to communicate with them, not shut themselves off from the parents. In order to achieve this, a child must trust the parents and the way they are being treated. Trust is harder to reach when the child is afraid of being spanked.

1st Body Post

Columbine anyone? Children take out their aggression where and when they can because they don't learn how to focus their anger or upset feelings elsewhere. When a parent spanks (hits) a child, it teaches them that hitting is acceptable. The message all over America in today's society is "violence is not the answer." How can we say these words and then physically punish our kids? The actions will always speak louder than words.

If the child hit someone or an animal in any way (biting, kicking, scratching, hitting) and is then spanked for doing so, the message they take from that is that hitting is acceptable. In order for children to understand that hitting in any form or fashion is unacceptable 100% of the time, they must not be spanked by their parents. Children who are not spanked will understand that hitting is wrong and that keeping their hands and feet to themselves is right. This will prevent them from physically taking out aggression now, and hopefully, prevent it in the future.

(Reference website: http://www.parenting.com/parenting/article...47543_3,00.html? )

Firefemme, Thankyou for your participation .

The repercussions of spanking far outweigh the good that comes from it.

So there are some positives?

The message all over America in today's society is "violence is not the answer."

I thought that was more the eastern's philosphy; because last time I checked kids don't always listen. In school they tell us not to do drugs, yet we still do drugs. We get really tired of hearing that. Because we all know they did drugs when they were teenagers. Anyway, that was just an example of kids not always listening. I'm also pretty sure teachers used to hit their students and they didn't have problems with a noisy classroom.
Now I'll reinforce what I already stated: toddlers don't always have the capacity to actually listen to what you are saying and store it in their brains. Have you ever seen Super Nanny?
Boy those kids are out of control. The parents will repeatedly yell at the kids but that doesn't work. Strict punishment does. I agree it's a good thing to talk to your kids, but at the time..they just don't want to hear it.

About Columbine...I'm not sure the teenagers shot their students because their parents spanked them. Wasn't it bullying?
Even if they were spanked I don't think they would have gone to those extremes because of it. You're probably thinking of child abuse which is totally different than spanking.
I don't think I need to point out the differences.

Why do parents refer to spanking? Because it's easier.
I know plenty of people that have been spanked and aren't agressive or tempermental. Spanking can inffluence that in some kids, but not all of them. If the child is shown correct punishment and love they will probably understand that their parents aren't always the big bully.

Of course there are positives...from a parent's point of view. The child won't do whatever it was that got them in trouble. Why? Not because they learned anything, but because they were spanked for doing something that they were probably not aware was wrong. Children need to be repeated to constantly to learn the difference between right and wrong. Has anyone met a child who learned how to use the potty after being shown once? No. This is because in order for the child to learn, the lesson must be repeated constantly, and that is what childhood is. Growing up and learning what is good and what is bad. Children do not think like adults. They cannot be treated like adults. A child should not be hit as a lesson. Childhood is about learning, not consequences. Granted, some children know what they are doing is bad, but a spanking can simply make them want to rebel more.


So if people are tired of hearing "drugs are bad," then it would be "easier" for everyone (teenagers and adults) to get a spanking so we will learn?

Adults involved in children's lives constantly communicate that violence does not solve the problem. Eastern philosophy or worldly, it is communicated to our children today in most countries. Regardless if children get tired of hearing it, the message that drugs is bad is constantly surrounding us. Here in America, commercials and billboards and whole TV shows are dedicated to keep people away from drugs, drinking and smoking. It's constantly repeated because the police can't just go out and give everyone doing bad things a spanking. Repetition is the key to learning, but as adults, it's harder to take the opinions and lessons of others. If these attempts don't work, by what you're saying, we all need a big spanking. But adults don't get spanked even though a large number of them do "bad" things. As children, all they take in are the lessons the parents teach them. If spanking is the punishment, then the child associates that hitting is ok. They are not going to understand why they get spanked sometimes and not other times. It confuses children and this can cause a breakdown in what the parent was trying to teach in the first place. Spanking or hitting is never, has never, and will never be a good consequence, whether it is in the adult world or a child's world.


Children afraid of being hit do not understand the importance of a quiet classroom. A quiet classroom does not teach them that is wrong to be disruptive. However, being humiliated in front of the entire class while having to where a Dunce hat and sitting in a corner would probably be a better form of punishment if the child is to LEARN that being disruptive is not good or right.


Not one person ever said or agreed that yelling is a viable way for a child to learn. It's just as bad as spanking. It upsets the child even more and they close up. A child doesn't always take in what someone is saying because every minute of every day as a child they are learning something new. Questions and curiosities and confusions that as adults, we had to learn as children. Why is the stove hot? Why is the fridge cold? How is a baby born? Why did I cut myself when I fell off my bike? Why do I need a bath everyday? Every moment a child is learning something new and it's not easy when you're that age. By the age of 6, most children know how to read and write, if not tentatively. But it's a process that starts as early as 2 or 3 with children. They can't learn how to read and write in a day, week or even a month. It takes time. So do the lessons that the parents need to teach their children. They will not learn how to properly use the potty and wipe and put on their panties or undies right away, and they should not be expected to learn other lessons just because they are bad right away. This is an extremely large world with a great deal to learn about it. Spanking a child is not the way to go about teaching them. You wouldn't spank your child if they didn't know how to spell or read a word. So why spank them at all. Every child has their own way of learning, but spanking is not the answer. Every parent must take the time to learn what boundary their child has to learning right from wrong. If a child repeatedly does something after being told not to, then they aren't being taught in a way they will understand.


Not all children are the same. I personally have a very sensitive niece who is such a lap baby and will tell you she loves you 20 times a day. She will constantly hold your hand and pet your arm and smile at you. But she is 3 and does bad things sometimes. She throws fits when she is tired and whines when she wants something. This doesn't mean she needs a spanking. It simply means that she needs to take a nap and when she wakes up, we can discuss what she did wrong. Before we understood that even though she's only been awake for 3 hours, she's tired and needs a nap, and she used to get spanked. She never learned anything and now that we have the new technique, we have had much less problems with her behavior. This goes back to the simple fact that all children are different and no technique will work equally as well with all children. It is a parent's responsibility to learn why their child is doing something bad instead of merely punishing them for it. Understand the child and the child will understand you, hence making spanking irrelevant.


Easy, we have learned in life, is not always right. It's easy to get the $7 an hour job because we know we will get a paycheck every week. But business owners take that chance of losing everything to make a much more financially stable life for themeselves. Why take risks? Because risks will get you further in life than if you don't. Parents need to risk their time in order to have a better outcome in their child's behavior. No parent has time to work, come home, cook dinner, get the child bathed and ready for bed, then take care of their own needs, get some sleep and start it all over again every day. But what parents need to realize when that child is born is that it's not just about taking the easy way out. Spanking is the easy way out of spending the time that is needed to properly teach the child. Time is a precious commodity when you're a child, and the parent of a child. The child may not like time out or may talk endlessly when they see you and ask you 50 times to "watch this." There will be times that the child is unhappy because they want to spend it with their parents. There are reasons behind every action, good or bad. Parents must hold up to the responsibility they signed on for when they became parents and not seek the easy way out just so dinner can get cooked, or because they got called into work, or because the parent is just tired and wants a break.

As adults, we take numerous years of college to learn how to be a doctor or lawyer. We do this because these subjects are so vast in information that we must take the time to learn about it. We can't just take a 6 week course and off we go because people's lives are at stake, whether behind bars or in a coffin. Why do we expect toddlers and children to learn how life works, what's wrong and right, what's true and false, what's real and pretend after being taught something a few times? Parents can't expect a child to learn about life because they were spanked. Spanking will only confuse them even more. The child needs time and repetition, not violence (regardless if the child is hurt or not, spanking is hitting.) Spanking is a trade-off for time. Parents punish their children even worse when they spank them not because they are being hit, but because they don't understand why. Parents MUST take the time to teach them what is bad and good, just like potty training, just like reading and writing, just like every other aspect of life. Spanking is a trade-off to do some real parenting and it does not work as effectively as taking time does.

http://drphil.com/articles/article/256/

Quarrah, your reply thanks.

Qarrah, you have well and trully gone over the 7-day posting time limit. If you do not PM either Tiddlyjen or I within the next 4 days or post I will be forced to disqualify you.

Maybe you need to read my early posts.

Children aren't as mature as adults. Ok. Children don't always take to heart what you tell them. Ok. Some children can easily learn if you tell them what they did is bad and why, some children don't.
Ok?

I think we can agree on that...? Anyway, as you said, not every child is the same. There are very disruptive children that just don't learn when you try and explain something to them. Spanking, in this situation, is a viable punishment. That doesn't mean after the child calms down you can't tell explain to them then what they did wrong. Then, if the child begans to learn, you don't need to spank your child again. It should be reserved only if the child gets really out of control and won't listen.

So because a child is "immature", they need to be spanked? When a person or child is being immature, you rationalize with them. It does work as long as the child is at least 3 or 4, they understand "don't do that it's bad (and tell them WHY)" and then they respect you for that. Spanking the child will simply make them fear the spanking and not respect the parent, hence, more bad behaviour. Every parent and authority figure wants to be respected and not feared (well, most anyways) and this cannot be achieved by physical punishment.


Some children will obey their parents more readily than other children, yes, but this does not mean they are incapable of learning and by no means does the child need to be spanked. Raising a child is difficult. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be so many abortions and adoptions and babies found in dumpsters. Just like if a child is having trouble learning to read when they are 5, or learning fractions at 8, or learning to do physics at 15, or driving at 16, life is difficult and is a constant learning process. But that means the TEACHER, or in the case of a parent and child, the PARENT, must take the time to understand the reason the subject is difficult for the child or person. They must find a way to communicate to the child or person in a way that they will learn. If every person that had to learn something new got spanked because they didn't catch on as quickly as others, every person in the world would need a spanking. It's illogical. If a child is dyslexic and the parent just spanks the child because they repeatedly bring home F's for not reading, is that right? The parent would, by your method, take the easy way out by spanking the child because the parent has told them over and over again to apply themselves and learn to read. But what about the child? They can't read because of a disease, but the parent isn't TAKING THE TIME to communicate with the child to discover this issue.


A parent must be able to understand the child's difficulty in properly obeying or the parent isn't being a good PARENT. A parent is there to teach the child and raise them to be good and understand right from wrong. I know many people who were not spanked as children and they actually seem like more stable people than the friends I have who were spanked. I understand a lot of factors go into that, but look at it from the parent's perspective. A parent who spanks their children will continue that method until the child is grown. Not by spanking the child, but by taking the easy way out. If the parent doesn't communicate with the child, then that means the parent is closing off from the child. This is a pattern that the parent continues to follow which causes their child in the future to disobey. The parent gets a call from the principal and is told their child is expelled for punching a teacher. The parent decides, "ok, if my child wants to be bad, then I will send him off to military school so he can learn to listen." The parent is taking the easy way out. The child continued the pattern of disobeying because of lack of respect for the parent to do the right thing. The parent continued the pattern of "taking the easy way out" by not communicating with the child, and in turn, the causes the child to behave worse.

When a baby is born and the mother and father hold the baby in their arms and that extreme feeling of euphoria that fills the parent's hearts is perhaps the most wonderful feeling the world. A parents emotions and feelings and natural instincts are there for a reason. That guilty feeling a parent gets after spanking a child comes for a reason. It is not viable to spank a child. It is not a good punishment in order for a child to learn. The parent needs to be consistent with time-outs or the taking away of privileges in order to make the child learn properly. Just like when a child is having a hard time learning how to read, if the child is taking a long time to learn that running out into the street is wrong, they the parent needs to find another method, aside from spanking, that will make the child learn. Instead of putting the child into time-out, sit down with them and explain that the child will no longer get to see Mom and Dad because they will have to live underground forever if they run into the street. Put it in terms they understand. Children must know WHY something is wrong before they can do the right thing, and it will take a while to learn. It's not easy to teach the child right from wrong, but that's what parenting is all about, the trials and tribulations, and in the end, the reward and pride of having raised an amazing child the RIGHT way.

If you shouldn't feel guilty about spanking your child. If you do, something's wrong.

What's wrong with spanking your child? Honestly? Some parents are lazy. People always want to take the easy way out. I don't agree with you about spanking being the easy way out. Even if it was, it's not like spanking your kid is going scar them for freaking ever.

Sometimes you just CAN'T rationalise with your child. CHILDREN DO NOT WANT TO LISTEN TO THEIR PARENTS ALL THE TIME. whoever told you any different is wrong.

Just talking to the kid won't always work. You need to show the kid who's boss. I'm not going to let some brat throw toys around in my house and tell them that's wrong and leave it alone.

So if a kid draws all over the wall how would you punish them? The point is that the kids associate the thing they did wrong with spanking and they'll remember not to do that again. Maybe when they get older you could talk to them about what they did wrong.

I don't know if you had perfect parents, but I'm still a pretty bad kid and I'll admit sometimes the things I do I SHOULD be spanked. But my parents don't spank me, they ground me.
You can't ground a three year old. It doesn't work out. A 14 year old and a 3 year old are at a different maturity level and need to be punished differently.
So, spanking is a viable punishment for some parents.
this is really pointless because all we're doing is repeating ourselves in different ways.

Post 4


My guess is that you don't have children of your own then. Neither do I, but I live with my two nieces and nephew and in the beginning, I spanked them for discipline but I always hated it and I always felt guilty. It's a natural feeling because no parent or guardian should have to hit their child for any reason.


My nieces have been spanked since they hit their terrible twos (their 5 & 3 now). Quite frankly, they never learned anything and all the explaining in the world helped. So about 6 months ago, when their mother and I had enough of all the tantrums and them destroying the house for the 30 minutes they were awake and we were not (they flooded our bathroom and it took 3 days for the carpet to dry completely) I started getting online trying to find alternatives because it was obvious that spanking was NOT working. It never had and it never would. I visited numerous websites and implemented many of the things I read. Their mother and I set rules, like not going into the kitchen AT ALL unless they ask one of us, or if they throw a tantrum, they go to their room, even if it's for two hours. These are just a couple of the rules we implemented, along with no more spanking. Over the course of the last 6 months, the kids (who used to go in the kitchen EVERY morning and get out all the food, poor out all the drinks, etc) don't set foot in the kitchen even if we're in there unless they ask first. They almost never get punished because they listen a lot more now. The reason they changed so drastically is for one simple reason. Like you said, show them who's boss, but not with spanking. Children become immune to spanking but not to time-outs when they want to play. We gave them rewards when they were good and told them EVERY DAY that they are going to have a good day and we would go over the rules with them EVERY MORNING. I've said it before and I will say it again; children need consistency. They are CHILDREN. You must take the time and put in the effort if you are to expect a good outcome. You said "whoever told me differently is wrong" but what you fail to understand is that I did the research, their mother and I put in the time and effort and the children improved after we removed spanking as an option.

The following is from this LINK and I think it speaks volumes.




Simple, you get them to scrub the wall. They may need a time out first based on how riled up they get, but that depends on the child. At some point, you talk to the child about why it's wrong.

Here's a LINK for the following quote.


Exactly what he said...chaos is not going to help any situation, and nor will the act of hitting your child. Some kids are more difficult than others, but that's like saying some kids need to be hit and some don't. It doesn't work that way. Discipline, whether made easy or difficult, is discipline. Without PROPER discipline, the kids will not learn and not obey. Spanking is not a viable punishment for the plain and simple reason that it's not a punishment. It's a way for parents to ascert what they think is control over a situation. The child acts out and they won't calm down. The parent will naturally think spanking their child will give them control of the situation. It doesn't. What is the reason a parent will spank? Because they want their child to stop being bad. Gaining physical control over the child however does not mean that the parent gained EMOTIONAL control over the child. The child is still upset, and even more so because their parent just spanked them. Emotional actions (walking away from them until they are calm, staying calm as a parent yourself, making sure your child knows you love them and reward them for being good, praising them specifically, etc) are what will win the behaviour battle, not physical actions.


So the more mature a person, that gives more reason NOT to spank them? Correct me if I'm wrong, but by your logic, that's like saying you should hit an ADHD kid because he can't control his hyperactivity. It's illogical. A child can't just be good because they don't have the consistency of being told not to do something and getting a proper punishment. They can't control what they don't know. The parent, however, can control how they teach. Children need routine. A daily routine to help them feel stable and balanced and a good/bad, right/wrong routine. If a child is constantly drawing on a wall, then all their drawing pencils/crayons/markers need to be taken away. A week or so later, ask them if they want to draw and when they say yes, tell them you don't want to give them back to her because you don't want them to draw on anything but the paper. They will promise they won't and then give them to her. Watch her for the first few minutes, check on her constantly, if she's being good, give her a hug and thank her for being a good listener and thank her for making you happy. Emotional tug-of-wars is a parents best asset. A child wants to loved and given good attention to so the parent needs to do it as much as possible. It won't take long before they start to stay away from the bad things and focus more on what makes their parents happy and proud.

It's been 6 months of this method with my nieces and their mother and I still have some daily battles. However, we find that the amount of time we spend being mad at them and fighting with them is much less and the kids listen much better. The 3 year old still throws tantrums sometimes, but that just means she's tired, can't get mad at her for that. The 5 year old who used to get spanked 3 times a day and never said yes ma'am or listened and always got time outs is now only going to time out about once every couple days. She almost always says yes ma'am and listens and constantly wants to do things to help me and her mother. She wants to take out the trash, feed the cats, open the garage door, set the table, and in return, we let her get her own drink from the kitchen (since the rule is not to go in the kitchen, it's like a reward) and she gets to stay up an extra 30 minutes at night or get a piece of candy after dinner.

This LINK is from the American Academy of Pediatrics and the quote below sums up their reasons not to spank.

The transistion from a spanking household to a no-spanking household is not easy. Reminding a child every day what is good and bad, right and wrong is not easy. Being creative in ways to find a punishment that fits the crime is not always easy. As a parent, it's not always easy to control your temper when a child has just broken your favorite vase, or colored on your favorite picture. The point of all if this though, parenting is not easy. Spanking is not a viable punishment because it is a short term, unrealistic way to temporarily gain control of a battle that you will have with your child until they are 18 or move out. A parents child will always do bad things, and as you said, you still do bad things. But it is the parents responsibility to learn how to gain control of the situation without spanking when the child is young so that as they get older, the parent knows how to handle the situation properly, since, like you said, the older and more mature they are, the less realistic it is to spank them. This is why the parent needs to learn how to discipline and punish properly while the child is young so they can handle the child as they get older and more mature.

Qarrah you have again failed to post within the 7-day time limit and if we deduct any more points from your score you will be heading for 0. You went over the two week limit earlier and I only allowed the debate to continue for the sake of your opponent. Your committment to this debate has been extremly poor of late and your last post highlights your lack of effort.I cannot allow this to go on any further, firefemme1202 you win by default.