I agree with you in some points Reese, because the religion is like a ritual in these days. We see churches filled with gold, the Vatican and their mercedes (oh, am i going to hear bout this...), to say the truth, everything was went the wrong way. The true religion is the one you make, your beliefs, I dont think anyone can save themself by going to church every sunday and having tons of statues in home if their "heart" does not believe.
About the bible, i have to disagree, even if it was written by men, it is very clear in its message, you either agree or ignore.

Sorry if i got a little off the topic there,
I think we must see Jesus and God has being one, and God has showed wrath and killed, Jesus showed wrath in the temple that was made a market, and if the story is true, we showed wrath and killed that boy.
The Gospel of Thomas is controversial in many ways. Can someone correct me if im wrong, but i think it is there that the church is openly criticised, by saying that God is not inside a house, but if you break a piece of wood, God is there, if you look under a rock, God is there.

No offence but I don’t believe in any lost books of the bible. The word bible comes from biblica, meaning small library. Its made of 66 small books wrote by over 40 different people over a 1,300 year period. And the attention and magnitude of research and involvement that has gone into the bible to produce it over the thousands of years, I just can’t see that anything would have been missed out.
And as far as I know, Jesus didn’t cause any miracles until after here was baptised by his cousin John the Baptist! And his first recorded miracle was turning large pots of water into wine!
And the wording is all wrong, can you imagine Jesus saying ‘Damn?’
And with the reference to him saying, “From this moment you, too, will dry up like a tree, and you'll never produce leaves or root or bear fruit.” Sounds like its been simply copied from another part of the bible, when Jesus spots a fig tree, and heads towards it, expecting fruit. And the tree is bare, so he curses it!
It does have sections that tie up with other references, but the other bits look like someone with an over active mind had been trying to trick a lot of people!

it was a translation i believe, perhaps the person translating the original translated it into a little more modern day terms, but besides the point, i do not believe any of these stories to be true, i dont believe the bible to be true, i do believe however jesus was a real person, i just beleive that he is the most succesful cult leader of all time, hes long gone and still has followers, and forever will have followers...and thats right i said it....jesus was a cult leader

lol..in fairness, Jesus was no such thing...he preached a way of life that was, also in fairness, a rather good one, with surprisingly modern thinking...

It's the people that came after him, and glorified him into something divine, that were the 'cult leaders'.

I agree Seraphina. He was real, most of us here at least agree to that. Whether he was good ALL the time, who really knows. Unless we believe that he was of holy decent, then isn't he to capable of slipping every now and then? He did think outside the box, and was very modern in his ways. That set him apart right there. Especailly since he lived in such a tumultrious (sp?) (Can't think right now!) time. There was violence everywhere around him, unkindness, and just complete disregard for humanity. So, wouldn't anyone that thought differently and reacted to violence differently, stand out?



Reese

(I am really glad that everyone is just posting their honest thoughts, without anger) Anytime I can learn something new, or understand people better, is better for me.

I was ( maybe i still am i dont know ....i have my doubts ...but then again i am only 18 ) a Catholic .Catholism is said to be the religion actually started up by Jesus followers with St Peter being the first Pope. Even we as a group do not take the bible literally...especially the old testament ..Adam and Eve( and the book of Genesis) for example....simply a creation story...analogous to the myths invented by the Greeks and Romans to explain what they did not witness. i apologise if i am repeating anything i havent had time to read the entire thread...i just have a general idea of the argument, there appear to be many different arguments. So i have already stated my opinon and the opinion held by the general Catholic church on many of the old testament stories. The books of Thomas seem to contradict what the New Testament ( being the part of the bible that Christians in general are supposed to follow with the utmost devotion) says about Jesus. One of the messages Jesus gave was to forgive you brother not 7 times but 77 times7 times. It doesnt seem plausible that Jesus would murder ( yes ..murder...because that is what it would have been if it was true) a child for making an error judgement. Then again maybe what the books of Thomas were tyring to portray is that instead of Jesus possesing the most unblemished concept of right judgement, perhaps Jesus really was born unto this Earth as a human with to some degree a human mind which was riddled with the imperfections that define us as humans.
Basically what i mean is perhaps he was still learning exactly what God's plan for him . This however, being partly Catholic , does not sit well with me and it contradicts the trinity concept that includes Jesus being God as well as his son.

Something else i would like note: I really want to know what some one said in a n earlier post about the bibel and a whole in the ground...i mean .why was it edited..i think people are silly to get all uptight about religion among other things..what does it matter what other people think...isnt it interesting just to hear what they have to say ? Sure getting pissed of is natural ...but who doesnt enjoy a good heated debate !!! i love em!!!

These so-called "lost books of the Bible" are simply fictional tales written in the third and fourth centuries. The Bible is complete as it stands; 66 books written by 40 different authors. There is an overabundance of internal evidence in the Bible that indicates these 40 individuals were divinely inspired. I know that people run in to Christian's who get upset when you question the Bible. I am a Christian and I encourage you to question the Bible; study it; look in to the marvelous continuity revealed in this amazing book. God isn't going to fall of His throne because you have questions. The Bible can stand up to your investigations. We have nothing to fear in seeking out the truth other than having our worldview turned upside down... and that's never a bad thing.

Firsrt off, thank you Phantom.

Second the experts never cannanized the writings of Thomas. I'm sure they did not for very good reasons, along with other writings, the Bible is the word breathed of God, some have mentioned that it seems to contradict itself, rather it is very complex and takes years to fully understand. I would expect nothing less from the creator of the Universe.

If everything was simply laid out, if God just sat in the sky and obviously called evey shot, would we have free will? He loves us enough to give us free will, those that follow will be rewarded for their faith. All he requires is belief, nothing more nothing less. Most unbelievers are afraid of changing their lives, he does not require this, his gift of salvation is without reqirements other than faith. Good works alone (I'm a good person) will not give you eternal life in Heaven.

Many are called, few are chosen. Faith requires going beyond mans 'logic' and believing our creator is greater and smarter than we could ever imagine, this to me, is what I would expect in God. I've seen him work in my life, through faith, that is enough for me.

OK, I do not mean this disrespectfully....


The way anyone says God would not give us simple answers, or even show himself, in straight forward ways, sounds a lot like the new age crap that spews from the mouths of those UFO groups that say they are in contact with ships and Aliens, but can never give any credible information on things that would prove they are for real. All they give is cryptic messages, through the channeler, saying they are here to help us change this world for the best. (Never laying out a clear plan) And, only a select few can see the ships, or be a channeler... I happen to think the opposite. If God created us, then he would understand why we choose to disbelieve. He not only created us with free will, he created us with a hunger for knowledge, and huge amounts of curiousity. No God would pick a select few, especially those that go to someone else for praying or affirmation of faith, when you never know if that person is 'holy' by his/her standards. Just because someone is a priest or pastor, does not mean that they fit what any God would deem faithful, and pure.

Check into some of those groups, and you will see a mirror image, only with Aliens added as spiritual saviors.



Reese

No direpect taken, but thanks for caring.....

You missed the point, God is not exclusive at all. He calls us all, only so many answer, they are the chosen. You CHOOSE not to believe so you are not CHOSEN.

How incredible (awe inspiring, world creating..etc etc etc)would God be if everything was simply defined? You have been given the information, it's what you choose to do with it that separates you from God.

What information has anyone been given, if you have to decipher it all? Nothing is clear cut, and stated directly. So, if he cannot understand doubt, that is a natural thing inside all of us, how Godly would he be?

Look, obviously you are very religious, and you can be. (I don't hold it against you) But, because I don't suscribe to what you believe, does not mean that at the end when people are being chosen, that I wouldn't be one of them. I hold moral conduct in higher regard than commitment to organized religion, and their standards set within.

What if everyone was wrong that practiced organized religion? What if the people God would really want in the end, were the ones that went up against all those that made their own rules up as they crept along, using his name and his purpose to do it? I mean, he likes the underdog, hasn't that been proven from scripture time and time again? So what if he admires people that insist on asking questions, and not taking human word, over their own instincts, which by most account, was given to us by our creator, you know him to be GOD.


You do realize that anyone can become an ordained minister online, right? Does that mean the hand of God reaches through the monitor and hands you the reigns of the kingdom, all for doing your homework in a timely fashion? Priests and Pastors, they are all people too. Not choosen by God, unless they claim they were instructed to join the ministry, in which case, they are blowing smoke up the rear that God gave you, just to make themselves seem more credible. It is all a job to most of them.. A steady paycheck, and a house by the church... Pretty gravy job, I think. Hell, I could even do it. I'd love to stand before people and preach for an hour every week. (Even wearing those freshly pressed silk robes, hmmm, that seems pretty holy to me) I would especially love the part that you get to fill in the cryptic messages, with whatever fits the moment.....



Reese

I fully understand where you're coming from, as I said those things before, I used to feel that faith was a way of explaining the unexplainable. Now I see it as a part of my salvation, when things are falling apart in my life, when I'm experiencing a pitfall, my faith sustains me. It seems to make no sense in my old 'logical' thought processes, but I've seen it work in my life, in miraculous ways. I want you to understand I am NOT trying to convert you or anyone, just explaining things as I see them now.

There's a saying that goes "You never really know Jesus is all you need, until Jesus is all you have" . Pastors and clergy have no better relationship with Jesus than any other Christian as Jesus requires/ expects a personal relationship with all who believe, church does not make me a Christian, my beliefs and my commitment to him do. He died for me, he suffered incredibly for ME and YOU.

Jesus stated the ONLY unforgivable sin is to deny him. He also said that if you have a little faith in him and take him as your savior, believe that he died for your salvation, he will grant you eternal life in heaven, through his grace. Nothing else in your life need be changed, nothing. If you allow the Holy spirit into your heart, it will change you, in miraculous ways. Our free will makes this an incredible journey, makes the reward that much richer, how empty would it be if it was just always there, forced on us as robots.

I think his statement "I am the way, the truth and the light" to be very direct. Also his statement "anything you pray for, in my name, I wil grant" (both paraphrased) .
Understanding that "in my name" means that if you CHOOSE to live fully in Jesus name, following his commandments and living as he directs you, your prayers will be answered. What bad thing would happen if people followed all of Jesus examples? Where's the BAD in any of this?

Sorry if I rambled....I'm really not trying to preach just explain.....

I realized that I didn't answer your other question.

According to God if you do not accept Jesus as your savior, If you don't believe he died for YOUR sins past and present, you forfeit salvation. It's not based on good works, it's based on God's grace. (I've lived a good life, I'm a good person) You still denied Jesus, the one unforgivable sin.

God bless you

I must admit...trying not to insult anyone...but assuming god does exist, I don't really see what right anyone who considers not worshipping them as the most evil and unforgivable act possible...as really being worthy of praise, so much as contempt.

Other figures throughout history have considered those holding alternative beliefs to be unforgivable...Hitler...Stalin...you see my line of thought? What kind of a divine being is so insecure in their power that they need humanity to accept them and worship them, and brutaly punnishes those who do not...

Elsewhere, I pointed out that the devil, to me, doesn't represent evil...he represents personal choice; going against the grain. Looking at the bible, some of god's actions (wiping out the world's population in a flood, turning people into pillars of salt, blasting cities off the face of the earth etc. etc...) are far more evil than anything the devil has ever done. God, in effect, sins far more than the devil ever has.

In relation to the topic though...it's interesting to notice that Jesus' supposedly killing these people in the lost books of the bible, isn't very much unlike god's murdering ways in the old testament...if they are books of the time, it's possible they were written as a 'sequal' to the bible, based on the original's ideals, and went on to spawn the new testament, which took a more liberal edge...

Alternatively, some jews may have been reluctant to take to the new christian ethics, and wrote the books to solidify their own belief in the old testament's harsher ways...

It's a question that has a different answer for everyone though, based on various degrees along the logic vs faith spectrum...I myself fall very strongy on the far side of logic, so forgive me if I did offend anyone...but I'm afraid I do consider religion archaic.

Seraphina.....I like you!

A thought crossed my mind once while lying in bed that God was a child, and we were toys/pets. How many kids have you seen that like to mutilate their toys? I did anyway. Or pour a bucket of water over a group of plastic army men, pull wings off of bugs. In some ways God reminds me of my 2 year old son. He bit the nose off of his Hulk action figure, but he still loves it and plays with it.

I know it don't make much sense, so I'll shut up.

I think everybody, no matter what religion or lack of, should just sit back and realize that there is something bigger and better than you out there whatever it may be...God, Nature, Physics...etc I think it all refers to the same thing...Just different ways to name it and personify it. Just realize that IT controls you whether you like it or not. IT made everything, IT exists. I think a lot of the religious persecution (whichever direction it is flowing...to or from) stems from the fact that people don't realize that it's all the same thing. An atheist may reject "GOD" and blame existance all on chance and nature, but a religious person would blame it all on their deity of choice...but don't they all refer to the same thing? Aren't the small details of each different religion just cultural influence on the same general theme?

Any way, even if you are an atheist...."chance and nature" still made you..if that's what you want to call it......

Rambling? maybe....does it make sense? I don't know..I'm going to hit send before I re-read it. hehe.

Ah, but those of us who believe in "chance and nature" don't preach that those not of our belief will, and should, burn in hell

right, but that's a different story. And that deals with respect and tolerance for others (something a lot of this world CAN'T do)

But the respect and tolerance stems for the belief itself...the bible says that you must worship no other god but...well...god...it says sinners will be punished, and the faithful will go off to paradise. And so on and so forth.

I do understand what you're trying to say...we all believe, in one way or another, of something that created us...be it nature, or some kind of entity...but I think the packaging of the beliefs really does make them more different than any acceptant of that could possible cover for.

People of different religions have been killing each other for years...and more often than not, it's because their belief and faiths tell them to. I have heard some people say that the 'creation myth' in the bible is a metaphor for evolution, just throwing in characters to allow people to understand it better...

However, over time, whatever similarities may have existed are gone...religion's a mythology that has stuck...no more (or for that matter less) valid than Thor and Zeus...I think that believing in a mythology, and believing in something that does actually leave behind physicaly evidence of its existance are very different indeed.

Having faith in something gives people comfort. Faith is all some people have, and some claim it gets them through the hard times. I've never believed in the same thing long enough to know, as my belief changes with almost every deep thought that I have.

[/QUOTE]I must admit...trying not to insult anyone...but assuming god does exist, I don't really see what right anyone who considers not worshipping them as the most evil and unforgivable act possible...as really being worthy of praise, so much as contempt[QUOTE]

I'm not insulted by your remark. Thank you for caring. Please bear with me, I am going to try to explain what I believe the heart of Christianity is all about and why we worship and praise who we believe to be our creator.

There were two sisters that lived in ocuppied Holland (I think it was holland) during WWII. They were Betsie and Corrie Ten Boom. They were brought up as Christians, not just Sunday Christians but everyday trying to gain more and more understanding from the word of God. The Bible is not a read, it is a study. This work is very complex and applies itself to all our lives, all through time. Anyway I bring them and the Bible up because they are an example as to what Jesusteachings and the work of the Lord is all about.

During the beginning of the occupation, while the Betsie and Corrie were in their fifties, the Ten Booms (entire family) hid Jews from the Nazis, They even hired a contractor to create a hidden space in their house for this purpose. Eventually they were found out and captured. They were in several prison camps, (not the Jew death camps) living under terrible conditions, not unlike the Jews. Betsie the smaller and frailer of the two was much closer to the Lord than Corrie, more of the Holy spirit worked through her because she gave up more of herself to the Lord. Corrie was Christian yet still had not given up everything and during this time of intense testing, wondered aloud how the Lord could allow such travesty. Betsie never wavered, she knew the Lord had his hand in everything and that for whatever reason ( God's) things that seem terrible in your life are there for your overall good. (This is what makes him God to me, an understanding and wisdom so deep I can't begin to comprehend it).

A moment in time that occurred while these two were in captivity cements the reason I want God to work through me, through my relationship with Jesus. This particular morning, a bitterly cold one, especially for the prisoners that were not provided clothing remotely suitable for the weather, one lady was late for role call outside. The guards forced the women to stand in the bitter cold for hours, a woman in front of the two sisters started to falter so a guard viscously beat her while all anyone else could do was look on. Corrie prayed to the Lord for this poor woman, Betsie prayed for the guard.

You see, I want the strength to pray for those that wish me harm. I want to be so full of the Lords love that I not only work for the good of all, but I can see the human in all of us, no matter how evil they may seem. We are all born to sin, we will all sin before God. Our hearts are all inclined to evil ( though some don't want to admit it, ever had a real nasty mean thought because you felt you were slighted, ever just had one of those 'what if I did this' thoughts) and we need to overcome, the Lord helps here mightily. I cannot judge others, that's not my place. I worship and praise the Lord because he deserves it, I submit to Him what is his to begin with, my life.

When those that believe explain to you that to deny the Lord is the only unforgivable sin, all they are saying is trust in Jesus, just have a little faith. You need not change a thing in your life, you can wait the entire rest of your life to change if you choose or never change, this is still your choice. But you will be guaranteed eternal life through Gods grace with only the smallest faith in the Lord. That's all. All he asks is a little faith in him, his holy spirit then will enter you, this is how you are 'reborn'. The holy spirit does the rest, the more of yourself you give up, the more the holy spirit works through you and in you.

Corrie went to the Lord before she could be released, Betsie survived and her book "The hiding place" chronicles the incredible story of the Ten Boom family.


Correction: Betsie went to the Lord and Corrie survived and wrote the hiding place.
God bless you

So what you're saying is...

You want the strength to be able to pray for your enemies, when one of the main messages of your religion is that they will be punished in hell for their sins? You say that you want to love everyone, no matter 'how evil they may be', and yet your god wants to condem them to eternal suffering? Don't you see the hypocracy in that?

And not even for what I would consider 'sin'...not for murder, or rape, or voting for the tories ()...but for not believing in him, and not allowing 'Jesus into their hearts'...

That, to me, is evil...that, to me, is exactly what the nazis were doing to those christian girls. When I've brought up this arguement before, I'm usually told that God is perfect, and god can do no wrong...so he can't sin because nobody can hold it against him...

Which is probably what the germans thought about Hitler.

Seraphina,

You will never get our friend, Eddie, to admit that his religion is hypocritical.. People that believe, believe ALL the way, and they don't want to see anything else.

I find it extremely hypocritical. If the stories about Jesus are true, then wouldn't he detest praying in a church, that members have no qualms paying for, even though they themselves, have children that are hungry?
I find many flaws with the whole 'system' of religion. They worry about building their churches, without building the community, in which they live.

Jesus, for one, would want someone to represent him, that goes against the grain. He wouldn't want his name or even his fathers' name used by anyone that contorted the religion, or basics of the religion, to fit their needs.


Eddie,

I have to say, that you seem good at heart. You haven't gotten angry, when some would, at the statements being posed to you. That is admirable, in my book.


Religion is subjective, just as most anything else that deals with faith. I don't happen to believe in it, but that is me. I don't pretend to know what to believe, but what I can say is, I believe in morality. There are basic rules that govern the world, and ones conscience, and that is what I live by.

Anyone that lives by that of which they preach, does gain some credit, in my book. I do see and recognize how hard it is to have faith in anything.



Reese

I understand what you're saying about Jesus...

Jesus was (I think I've already said this somewhere else, but what the heck) a wise man of the time, who wanted to promote a new way of life, which was radically different from the extremely rigid and harsh ways of the old testament. He wanted peace, love, and understanding...and in fairness, what he said does seem like a wonderful way to live your life.

It's christianity itself (the church in other words) that twisted this into a means of control. Look at the dark ages and you'll see exactly how firm that control was...Jesus never claimed to be the son of god, but those who came after him used a poor man as a prop to exert control; which, to be honest, is the purpose of all religion.

Like Marx said: "Religion is the opium of the masses." It's all part of the big machine of 'the way things should be', keeping the ruling class on top, and the poor accepting their lot because 'god gave it to them'.

Sorry I am a bit opinionated about this...but I was actually banned for another forum because the admin was a christian and, upon discovering a friend of mine on the forum was an athiest, banned him and everyone who knew him (me, his girlfriend, and another friend of his) in hopes he wouldn't find out about it, and would just go away.

Soooo...I'm afraid I don't have much patience for the hypocracy of some christians.

seraphina

I'm sorry you see God as being vindictive, cruel and mean. The main message is....YOU can have guaranteed eternal life, with a very simple jesture, just look deeply into your soul, therein lies the answer. A little faith and the belief that Jesus died for our sins. Even one of the highest angels fell, we call him Lucifer, he is so powerful he took one third of the Angels with him, this shows just how powerful he is. Jesus can and will always overcome satan.

The funny thing is, I was exactly where you are until I opened up to Jesus in a time of selfish need. Once I followed his teaching and started to show just a little faith, events in my life changed drastically. This is all I'm trying to say. Believe what you must, see things as you need to, just remember no matter how often or how much you say negatively about the Lord, he's always there waiting for you. There's only one timetable, the end of your life here on earth.

Jesus did proclaim that he was the son of God, I'm not going to quote scripture, I see no need for that. (unbelievers eyes tend to glaze over anyway) If you want scripture to prove this just ask. We are all prone to mistakes and sins, believers and unbelievers alike. Some believers go over the edge and forget the teaching, trying to convert the unconvertable. They sin in their attempts to 'protect' the name of the Lord. He can protect himself. I don't believe Jesus sees this activity as honoring him, I see faith, love, joy and mercy as honoring to Jesus. I rebuke those followers that use these tactics because they cause great harm, like a bad cop gives the whole force a bad name. Repentance and humility have a bad rap, but I find both very comforting, I have a greater sense of peace and a great outlook on my life, and those I interact with, because I know I have the help of the creator of the universe in all things.

God bless you..... Please don't be offended if I pray for you

lol, I won't be, I guarentee...you're not the peep that banned me, so don't think I hold you in the same regard. From what I can tell, you do seem to be a good person. However...while you say you used to be like me, I used to be like you. I did believe in god at one point (granted, when I was very young, and it was funneled into me by my parents), but eventually I decided for myself that it wasn't what I believed.

It's not a matter of opening my heart to it...I can no more make myself believe in a mystical force than I can wave a magic wand and make myself believe that the Spice Girls released good music....it's simply not something I believe, no more than you can wave a wand and make yourself not believe in it.

However...I'm not going to pray for you...but I am going to 'hope' for you...so don't you be offended Atheism is, at least, seeming to be on the rise in some places...there's hope for logic yet.

I've got no problem with blind faith...but logic, and logical thinking, is what actually moves the world.

[QUOTE]I can no more make myself believe in a mystical force than I can wave a magic wand and make myself believe that the Spice Girls released good music....


Now that is the funniest line I've read in awhile....I think you are a nice person, who(m)? means well. Thank you for not heaping insults at my faith. I believe I understand what you are saying.

Note: obviously I could use some help with the quote code button......

if you click the quote button, the person's post appears in a box under yours. Just cut the text in there down to whatever you want to quote.

Eddie, your belief in the teachings of Jesus astound me. You are the sort of christian I would always aspire to be. I am Catholic (I know that the mere mention of this might spurn people against me lol), and I do believe in the structure and hierachy of the Church. Yes before anyone points it out, I do realise that the ecclesiastical figures do fall, and they fall hard, with issues such as child abuse and whatnot, but as eddie said, it's only a few giving a bad rep. The Catholic Church has done alot for hummanity (schools, etc) and arguably it has done alot against it as well (crusades and inquisitions to name a couple). Let us remember that the Church IS run by men, which, are destined to fail and to fall, it is called human weakness. But nowadays the Church holds less political influence and still supports alot of aid to the third world countries as well as the homeless, etc. These are good things. The church still has large roles to play in our society and will thankfully keep on doing so for quite some time. I also wanted to mention that I agree with eddie's statement that if you truly repent your sins then you will be delivered from hell. Not the sort of idea that most people have of a vengeful god, but that's how the system works.

p.s. It is alot more difficult to truly repent one's sins than what most people think! (personal belief, I will elaborate further if you guys so desire for me to do so)

I just wanted to throw my two cents in about the whole "lost gospels/was Jesus a killer?" thing. That gospel of Thomas reminds me a lot of the stories of Hercules. Hercules killed his own wife and children in a fit of madness (madness caused by the goddess Hera...but he killed them nonetheless). In his youth, Hercules did a lot of things that proved he wasn't a normal human. Those things weren't always constructive; they just served to prove he was a demigod.

So let's say that Jesus was a demigod ("God made flesh", as my Christians friends would say) with extraordinary powers. But he was a child once with a child's mind and a child's temper...then who's to say he didn't use his power to kill those who angered him?

Also, there are interesting parallels between the Biblical accounts of Jesus and more ancient myths and gods. The miraculous conception of Jesus is very similar to the Egyptian story of Isis, Osiris, and their miraculously conceived son Horus. Horus eventually restored his father's kingdom on earth after the murdered Osiris went on to rule in the afterlife. "On Earth as it is in Heaven", anybody?

So all things considered, I think it's conceivable that Jesus misused his powers before he came to know his true purpose.

Also, Jesus started preaching pretty late in his life (age 30)...for all we know, by that point he might've taken over Joseph's carpentry business and gotten married to (as some liberal scholars like to believe) his second cousin, Mary Magdalene. She wasn't a "fallen woman"-- the Apostles just hated her because a) some of them weren't very keen on women to being with (*cough*Peter*cough*) and she would've distracted Jesus from his mission.

I don't believe she had any of these activites in mind either. I guess what I am trying to say is that most of the ideas that relly cause things to happen are cause by belief not logic. and with respect of God; I look at creation and say he exists, others look at suffering and say He does not exist or is a tyrant if he does. Both are reached by logical conclusion; but only belief will determine which fork of the road you take.

Hmmm..... Well some people look at science as a good way of determining if they think he exists......

The one thing that bother s me about sciience and religion is how can science if you are dealing with something that is supposed to not be of this world

Crosswarrior - actually, I was refering to moving forward which religion has yet to accomplish for our society in any way whatsoever.

It's been science and logic that has allowed us to advance...not only in terms of technology, but also as a culture. If you compair us to fundamentalist countries, I think you'll all agree that we're a great deal better off

We don't stone women to death for becoming pregnant after being raped...we don't put a death sentance on people's heads for writing a book...we don't force women to wander around wrapped up like tacos incase the sight of her ears drives a man sexually mad, causes him to rape her, and result in her being stoned to death

We no longer barge into other people's countries and demand that they change their system of belief to our's...for that matter, we also don't kill those that refuse to do so anymore.

All of the above were problems caused when society was centered around religion. We're now moving in the direction of logical thinking instead...and it's plain to see we're far far better off because of it.

Do you think you'll ever see another Salem witch trial in this day and age in the western world?

So, in answer to your question...

Good point.
Religion can not split an atom, nor can it send a man to the moon. As for dealing with man in a despicable way the Christians had the Inquisistion and the Salem witch trials, The islamics there oppression of woman and the Jihad. But among the logical atheist there is Stalin and Mao; along with all they did. So though I agree with you that it is science that moves our civilization. It is whatever religion we believe that drives our science and how we use it.
Science has no soul.

Maybe our science is determined by what we believe.

very true crosswarrior.
Infact, the human perception of reality as a whole, is based on what we believe it to be.

What is reality? Who am I? What is my perpose on Earth? What Does this have to do with Jesus killing

what did your quote "science has no soul" have anything to do with jesus killing?
Simple. Its called the evolution of a conversation. If my answers frighten you , then cease asking scary questions.