A note to begin on: I am seeking strictly academic and objective answers to my question. I don't want to get flamed by Christians. My question in no way reflects my beliefs and I am not attempting to offend Christians.

Now for my question:

In a religion class a few years ago it was mentioned that there is a story in which a young Jesus Christ kills another boy. I can't remember if this tale is told in one of the missing books of the bible or not. I heard the same thing a few years later on a show on the History Channel. I am seeking more information on this topic. A web URL or any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Celtchic

I am replying to my own question because I finally found what I was looking for: The story of Jesus killing is found in Thomas’ Gospel Of The Infancy Of Jesus Christ.

Can we have it then?

Only just recently heard of the Gospel of Thomas. Please enlighten us.

I have found several different translations, but I think this one is the easiest to understand. It is found at http://www.cygnus-study.com/pageinf.shtml

But I've copied and pasted it anyway:

The Gospel of Infancy Thomas


as translated by Harold Attridge & Ronald F. Hock in the book
The Complete Gospels, Harper Collins, ©1992

Boyhood deeds of our Lord Jesus Christ

1 I, Thomas the Israelite, am reporting to you, all my non-Jewish brothers and sisters, to make known the extraordinary childhood deeds of our Lord Jesus Christ - what he did after his birth in my region. This is how it all started:

2 When this boy, Jesus, was five years old, he was playing at the ford of a rushing stream. (2) He was collecting the flowing water into ponds and made the water instantly pure. He did this with a single command. (3) He then made soft clay and shaped it into twelve sparrows. He did this on the sabbath day, and many other boys were playing with him.
(4)But when a Jew saw what Jesus was doing while playing on the sabbath day, he immediately went off and told Joseph, Jesus' father: "See here, your boy is at the ford and has taken mud and fashioned twelve birds with it, and so has violated the sabbath."
(5)So Joseph went there, and as soon as he spotted him he shouted, "Why are you doing what's not permitted on the sabbath?"
(6)But Jesus simply clapped his hands and shouted to the sparrows: "Be off, fly away, and remembe' me, you who are now alive!" And the sparrows took off and flew away noisily.
(7)The Jews watched with amazement, then left the scene to report to their leaders what they had seen Jesus doing.

3 The son of Annas the scholar, standing there with Jesus, took a willow branch and drained the water Jesus had collected. (2)Jesus, however, saw what had happened and became angry, saying to him, "Damn you, you irreverent fool! What harm did the ponds of water do to you? From this moment you, too, will dry up like a tree, and you'll never produce leaves or root or bear fruit."
(3) In an instant the boy had completely withered away. Then Jesus departed and left for the house of Joseph. (4)The parents of the boy who had withered away picked him up and were carrying him out, sad because he was so young. And they came to Joseph and accused him: "It's your fault - your boy did this."

4 Later he was going through the village again when a boy ran and bumped him on the shoulder. Jesus got angry and said to him, "You won't continue your journey." (2)And all of a sudden, he fell down and died.
(3)Some people saw what had happened and said, "Where has this boy come from? Everything he says happens instantly!"
(4)The parents of the dead boy came to Joseph and blamed him saying, "Because you have such a boy, you can't live with us in the village, or else teach him to bless and not curse. He's killing our children!"

5 So Joseph summoned his child and admonished him in private, saying, "Why are you doing all this? These people are suffering and so they hate and harass us." (2)Jesus said, "I know that these are not your words, still, I'll keep quiet for your sake. But those people must take their punishment." There and then his accusers became blind.
(3)Those who saw this became very fearful and at a loss. All they could say was, "Every word he says, whether good or bad, has became a deed - a miracle even!" (4)When Joseph saw that Jesus had done such a thing, he got angry and grabbed his ear and pulled very hard. (5)The bot became infuriated with him and replied, "It's one thing for you to seek and not find; it's quite another for you to act this unwisely. (6)Don't you know that I don't really belong to you? Don't make me upset."

6 A teacher by the name of Zacchaeus was listening to everything Jesus was saying to Joseph, and was astonished, saying to himself, "He is just a child, and saying this!" (2)And so he summoned Joseph and said to him, "You have a bright child, and he has a good mind. Hand him over to me so he can learn his letters. I'll teach him everything he needs to know so as not to be unruly."
(3)Joseph replied, "No one is able to rule this child except God alone. Don't consider him to be a small cross, brother."
(4)When Jesus heard Joseph saying this he laughed and said to Zacchaeus, "Believe me, teacher, what my father told you is true. (5)I am the Lord of these people and I'm present with you and have been born among you and am with you. (6)I know where you've come from and how many years you'll live. I swear to you, teacher, I existed when you were born. If you wish to be a perfect teacher, listen to me and I'll teach you a wisdom that no one else knows except for me and the one who sent me to you. (7)It's you who happens to be my student, and I know how old you are and how long you have to live. (8)When you see the cross that my father mentioned, then you'll believe that everything I've told you is true."
(9)The Jews who were standing by and heard Jesus marveled and said, "How strange and paradoxical! This child is barely five years old and yet he says such things. In fact, we've never heard anyone say the kind of thing this child does."
(10)Jesus said to them in reply, "Are you really so amazed? Rather, consider what I've said to you. The truth is that I also know when you were born, and your parents, and I announce this paradox to you: when the world was created, I existed along with the one who sent me to you."
(11)The Jews, once they heard that the child was speaking like this, became angry but were unable to say anything in reply. (12)But the child skipped forward and said to them, "I've made fun of you because I know that your tiny minds marvel at trifles."
(13)When, therefore, they thought that they were being comforted by the child's exhortation, the teacher said to Joseph, "Bring him to the classroom and I'll teach him the alphabet."
(14)Joseph took him by the hand and led him to the classroom. (15)The teacher wrote the alphabet for him and began the instruction by repeating the letter alpha many times. But the child was quiet and did not answer him for a long time. (16)No wonder, then, that the teacher got angry and struck him on the head. The child took the blow calmly and replied to him, "I'm teaching you rather than you're teaching me, and your condemnation is great. To you these letters are like a bronze pitcher or a clashing cymbal, which can't produce glory or wisdom because it's all just noise. (17)Nor does anyone understand the extent of my wisdom." (18)When he got over being angry he recited the letters from alpha to omega very quickly.
(19)Then he looked at the teacher and told him, "Since you don't know the real nature of the letter alpha, how are you going to teach the letter beta? (20)You impostor, if you know, teach me first the letter alpha and then I'll trust you with the letter beta." (21)He began to quiz the teacher about the first letter, but he was unable to say anything.
(22)Then while many were listening, he said to Zacchaeus, "Listen, teacher, and observe the arrangement of the first letter: (23)How it has two straight lines or strokes proceeding to a point in the middle, gathered together, elevated, dancing, three-cornered, two-cornered, not antagonistic, of the same family, providing the alpha has lines of equal measure."

7 After Zacchaeus the teacher had heard the child expressing such intricate allegories regarding the first letter, he despaired of defending his teaching. (2)He spoke to those who were present: "Poor me, I'm utterly bewildered, wretch that I am. I've heaped shame on myself because I took on this child. (3)So take him away, I beg you, brother Joseph. I can't endure the severity of his look or his lucid speech. (4)This child is no ordinary mortal; he can even tame fire! Perhaps he was born before the creation of the world. (5)What sort of womb bore him, what sort of mother nourished him? -I don't know. (6)Poor me, friend, I've lost my mind. (7)I've decided myself, I who am wholly wretched. I strove to get a student, and I've been found to have a teacher. (8)Friends, I think of the shame, because, although I'm an old man, I've been defeated by a mere child. (9)And so I can only despair and die on account of this child; right now I can't look him in the face. (10)When everybody says that I've been defeated by a small child, what can I say? And what can I report about the lines of the first letter which he told me about? I just don't know, friends. For I don't know its beginning or its end. (11)Therefore, I ask you, brother Joseph, take him back to your house. What great thing he is - god or angel or whatever else I might call him - I don't know."

8 While the Jews were advising Zacchaeus, the child laughed loudly and said, "Now let the infertile bear fruit and the blind see and the deaf in the understanding of their heart hear: (2)I've come from above so that I might save those who are below and summon them to higher things, just as the one who sent me to you commanded me."
(3)When the child stopped speaking, all those who had fallen under the curse were instantly saved. (4)And from then on no one dared to anger him for fear of being cursed and maimed for life.

9 A few days later Jesus was playing on the roof of a house when one of the children playing with him fell off the roof and died. When the other children saw what had happened, they fled, leaving Jesus standing all by himself.
(2)The parents of the dead child came and accused Jesus: "You troublemaker you, you're the one who threw him down."
(3)Jesus responded, "I didn't throw him down - he threw himself down. He just wasn't being careful and leaped down from the roof and died."
(4)Then Jesus himself leaped down from the roof and stood by the body of the child and shouted in a loud voice: "Zeno!" - that was his name - "Get up and tell me: Did I push you?"
(5)He got up immediately and said, "No, Lord, you didn't push me, you raised me up."
(6)Those who saw this were astonished, and the child's parents praised God for the miracle that had happened and worshipped Jesus.

10 A few days later a young man was splitting wood in the neighborhood when his axe slipped and cut off the bottom of his foot. He was dying from the loss of blood.
(2)The crown rushed there in an uproar, and the boy Jesus ran up, too. He forced his way through the crowd and grabbed hold of the young man's wounded foot. It was instantly healed.
(3)He said to the youth, "Get up now, split your wood, and remember me."
(4)The crowd saw what had happened and worshipped the child, saying, "Truly the spirit of God dwells in this child."

11 When he was six years old, his mother sent him to draw water and bring it back to the house. (2)But he lost his grip on the picture in the jostling of the crowd, and it fell and broke. (3)So Jesus spread out the cloak he was wearing and filled it with water and carried it back to his mother.
(4)His mother, once she saw the miracle that had occurred, kissed him; but she kept to herself the mysteries that she had seen him do.

12 Again, during the sowing season, the child went out with his father to sow their field with grain. While his father was sowing, the child Jesus sowed one measure of grain. (2)When he had harvested and threshed it, it yielded one hundred measures. (3)Then he summoned all the poor in the village to the threshing floor and gave them grain. Joseph carried back what was left of the grain. (4)Jesus was eight years old when he did this miracle.

13 Now Jesus' father was a carpenter, making ploughs and yokes at that time. He received an order from a rich man to make a bed for him. (2)When one board of what is called the crossbeam turned out to be shorter than the other, and Joseph didn't know what to do, the child Jesus said to his father, "Put the two boards down and line them up at one end."
(3)Joseph did as the child told him. Jesus stood at the other end and grabbed hold of the shorter board, and, by stretching it, made it the same length as the other.
(4)His father Joseph looked on and marveled, and he hugged and kissed the child, saying, "How fortunate I am that God has given this child to me."

14 When Joseph saw the child's aptitude, and his great intelligence for his age, he again resolved that Jesus should not remain illiterate. So he took him and handed him over to another teacher. (2)The teacher said to Joseph, "First I'll teach him Greek, then Hebrew." This teacher, of course, knew of the child's previous experience (with a teacher) and was afraid of him. Still, he wrote out the alphabet and instructed him for quite a while, though Jesus was unresponsive.
(3)Then Jesus spoke: "If you're really a teacher, and if you know the letters well, tell me the meaning of the letter alpha, and I'll tell you the meaning of beta."
(4)The teacher became exasperated and hit him on the head. Jesus got angry and cursed him, and the teacher immediately lost consciousness and fell facedown on the ground.
(5)The Child returned to Joseph's house. But Joseph was upset and gave instruction to his mother: "Don't let him go outside, because those who annoy him end up dead."

15 After some time another teacher, a close friend of Joseph, said to him, "Send the child to my schoolroom. Perhaps with some flattery I can teach him his letters."
(2)Joseph replied, "If you can muster the courage, brother, take him with you." And so he took him along with much fear and trepidation, but the child was happy to go.
(3)Jesus strode boldly into the schoolroom and found a book lying on the desk. He took the book but did not read the letters in it. Rather, he opened his mouth and spoke by (the power of) the holy spirit and taught the law to those standing there.
(4)A large crowd gathered and stood listening to him, and they marveled at the maturity of his teaching and his readiness of speech - a mere child able to say such things.
(5)When Joseph heard about this he feared the worst and ran to the schoolroom, imagining that this teacher was having trouble with Jesus.
(6)But the teacher said to Joseph, "Brother, please know that I accepted this child as a student, but already he's full of grace and wisdom. So I'm asking you, brother, to take him back home."
(7)When the child heard this, he immediately smiled at him and said, "Because you have spoken and testified rightly, that other teacher who was struck down will be healed." And right away he was. Joseph took his child and went home.

16 Joseph sent James to tie up some wood and carry it back to the house, and the child Jesus followed. While James was gathering the firewood, a viper bit his hand. (2)And as he lay sprawled out on the ground, dying, Jesus came and blew on the bite. Immediately the pain stopped, the animal burst apart, and James got better on the spot.

17 After this incident an infant in Joseph's neighborhood became sick and died, and his mother grieved terribly. Jesus heard the loud wailing and the uproar that was going on and quickly ran there.
(2)When he found the child dead, he touched its chest and said, "I say to you, infant, don't die but live, and be with your mother."
(3)And immediately the infant looked up and laughed. Jesus then said to the woman, "Take it, give it your breast, and remember me."
(4)The crowd of onlookers marveled at this: "Truly this child was a god or a heavenly messenger of God - whatever he says instantly happens." But Jesus left and went on playing with the other children.

18 A year later, while a building was under construction, a man fell from the top of it and died. There was quite a commotion, so Jesus got up and went there. (2)When he saw the man lying dead, he took his hand and said, "I say to you, sir, get up and go back to work." And he immediately got up and worshipped him.
(3)The crowd saw this and marveled: "This child's from heaven - he must be, because he has saved many souls from death, and he can go on saving all his life."

19 When he was twelve years old his parents went to Jerusalem, as usual, for the Passover festival, along with the their fellow travelers. (2)After Passover they began the journey home. But while on their way, the child Jesus went back up to Jerusalem. His parents, of course, assumed that he was in the traveling party. (3)After they had traveled one day, they began to look for him among their relatives. When they did not find him, they were worried and returned again to the city to search for him.
(4)After three days they found him in the temple area, sitting among the teachers, listening to the law and asking them questions. (5)All eyes were on him, and everyone was astounded that he, a mere child, could interrogate the elders and teachers of the people and explain the main points of the law and the parables of the prophets.
(6)His mother Mary came up and said to him, "Child, why have you done this to us? Don't you see, we've been worried sick looking for you."
(7)"Why were you looking for me?" Jesus said to them. "Don't you know that I have to be in my father's house?"
(8)Then the scholars and Pharisees said, "Are you the mother of this child?"
(9)She said, "I am."
(10)And they said to her, "You more than any woman are to be congratulated, for God has blessed the fruit of your womb! For we've never seen nor heard such glory and such virtue and wisdom."
(11)Jesus got up and went to his mother, and was obedient to his parents. His mother took careful note of all that had happened. (12)And Jesus continued to excel in learning and gain respect.
(13)To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Thanks celtchic been wanting to read that for a while!!

my Dad has a book on the lost books of the Bible. supposedly they are full of tales of Christ's magical powers/Christ's bad decisions. i don't know if i believe in these books as ive heard him talk about what was in them on occasion. there are also other books that contradict what is in our Bible that are also left out.

the reason these books were left out is because theologians of the past made determinations that they were not correct. those theologians lived in a time closer to Christ's life and dedicated themselves to finding a correct and coherent documentation of Christ's life-they must be trusted as they were much closer to the truth at that time. the books of the New Testament overlap each other- that is no accident. they overlap to allow the reader to see the same story as told through the eyes of different authors, and also because they match up with each other and therefore verify the validity of each other. some stories that did not match were left out of the Bible we read today because they weren't verifiable like the ones included.

this is one of those stories.

So, Jesus is still an illiterate?

According to the Bible, Jesus performed his first miracle at Cana in Galilee (turning water into wine) at the age of twelve. This was his first miracle; according to the bible he never performed any miracle before that. The passage above “The gospel of Infancy by Thomas” mentions that, Jesus performed miracles from the age of 5.

Now is there a contradiction? Or am I wrong?

I thought I read somewhere that the first miracle was the very fact that Mary did not get stoned to death for giving birth to Jesus. I don't remember where I read it though.

Here is some more information on The Gospel of Thomas

Click Here

i dont believe a single word of the gospel of thomas. and even if he did, then those ppl deserved it. many sins in the Bible deserve immediate death (ex: cursing your mother or father) so if He did do those acts, which i dont believe He did, then it was rightly so. He was perfect.

It seems different from the bible. The way it's written.

hopefully i won't offend anybody my saying this, but i feel the bible [edited out] ,it was meant to comfort the people in those days, because there was a hole in the ground, and it was uncomfortable...thats it, plain and simple


Edit
How can you think that this won't offend anyone ? I suggest you choose your words carefully on this forum. You had a bumpy start already and I advise you to lower your profile a bit...

Undead Crow, why do you think the bible is fake? What evidence suggests that?

I think some poet guy wrote it. He decided to make a story one day and based some of it on events that happened which is why there's evidence of things that happened in the bible. The guy died, someone found the bible and there you go. People believed it because there's no explanation on how everything came to exist.

The Gospel of Tom suggests that heaven is not something that needs to be aspired to, or even earned but ...." is within you and it is without you." Because Tom's Gospel tells one to look inside themselves that is one of the reasons it is considered a contradiction. I think Tom's Gospel isn't so much a contradiction. It is more of a gap filler. It explains the lost years of Jesus. Just cause a bunch of people decided a long time ago to exclude them does make them right. They even excluded a book by adam.... the first man. I mean he was important, and they excluded him.

It sounds about as credible as the gospel according to Lung

The problem with UFO's, superstition, and anything else beyond verification is that you can say anything you like and simply rely on people's fear of the unknown to demand compliance.

If you don't, upon reading this, stand on one leg, tilt your head to the left, throw pepper 30 degrees to your right, wiggle your nose and shout "i'm a naive wanker" 23.7 times in a falsetto voice, then you shall die an instant, horrible death. Go on, look death in the eye and say "i dare you", and ignore my warning!

I bet that any of you non-skeptics at least hesitated before ignoring it, assuming that you did ignore it

Lung, where did you learn to communicate? i have no idea what in the hell your statement meant to convey. if you would be so kind as to retype it with emphasis on making a complete and coherent thought, i would appreciate it.

The Gospel of Thomas? I must say I have my doubts.

i think that the bible is real, but however, some of the stories seem a little...well...not real, almost prefabricated, it you will.

Okay, athiest here, objective veiw given...

The bible (that is, the section that concerns Jesus) was written by his followers after his death...probably with the joint intention of passing on his teachings, and turning him into an enduring martyr. The tales recounted in the bible are likely heavily romantisised to that end, and any tale recounted or written would have to have that same purpose.

I think the fact that, upon reading the entry where Jesus killed a child for bumping into him, someone declaired that they deserved it because Jesus was perfect, and could do no wrong...does suggest that they managed to achieve their aim in what was such a powerful portrail of a man's life that many people, even in modern times, take it very seriously.

Because of that, I don't see how any of Jesus' followers would either be in a position to recount, or do so even if they were, a story from Jesus' childhood, that would turn his teachings on his head, and could potentially shatter the image they were attempting to portray.

Like all mythologies (please don't take offence at this, but I consider the bible a mytholigy, in the same sense the ancient greeks had mount Olympis, and the Vikings had Thor) the chances are this tale was formulated as a corruption of varous other stories, the main character of which gradually became 'Jesus Christ' as it was told throughout the years.

Ok first, I haven't been here in a while, and it seems as though a certain hottie has now become a moderator, good for you, but why the hell are you editing so much?? It makes it difficult to get what someone says, when you edit out blatant content. Please, all mods, remember that not everyone makes worthwhile statements, but they are statements, nonetheless................... Unless someone is beligerant, please let the conversation roll as it may. (Keeps things interesting)

Ok, now on the bible talk. First if there are lost books of the bible, how can ayone know what they contain, if they are lost?? Then, you have to understand that the bible is subjective. Speculatory. All left to translators, that have had even their work re-translated. The people that I find intriguing, and with their good sense, are the ones that understand that the bible is just another tool, to guide the moral. Not a Holy Vessel of some mysterious revelation. It is mass produced, by so many different companies. I have met many religious people, and some are out of their minds with this stuff, that it almost makes it difficult to be in their presence. Then, I have also met people, that are religious, yet have the good understanding enough to realize that the Bible is meant for interpretation, not justification.

And, Jesus was a real person, whether holy or not, he was real. He existed. Maybe just another David Blain, or Copperfield, only of biblical times.... Well, if anyone wishes to yell at me about this, then you can always do so, but it is just my opinion.


Reese

What I'll add to this at the moment is, that when someone says 'lost' book s of the bible, what they really mean is left out books, these books were left out by the early christians because they did not help the religion, after all, if you are trying to promote a new religion and one of the main bits of that religion is love thy fellow man, you hardly want a story in the religious text that has a main character doing unspeakably evil things instead of good ones, when he is supposed to be good.

Well, left out, or lost, it doesn't really matter anyway, as it is all left up for speculation.



Reese

what the heck is this all about

the bible

oh wait what about the stories that were not included

i know...the bible..the directors cut

hey babyforrest tell me why the bible is real....and i 'll tell you why it's another story invented..by people who want to installed fear in the underlings beneath them



quick joke....

an oil rig is in need of salvation
jesus says to is loyal 12..lets walk out and save them
,,but lord it's 10 miles,,,say the 12
trust me says jesus
so they all start to walk into the water...jesus is level with the water
the 12 are 1ft under,,lord they say we are below the water,trust in me,says jesus
further out,jesus is level,lord we 're not going to make it,trust in me,says jesus
gulg glug lord we're drowning,,jesus says,,you thick a**h*l*s why didn't you walk along the pipeline like me

I guess what I want to know is that how can you Not belive in a part of the bible that was "left out" or lost. And yet whole heartedly belive in everything else the bible has to say?

I guess what it boils down to is why does anyone belive what the bible say's at all? I understand that many of you were probably tought as young impresionable children that this was right and thats way things are ment to be by your Parrents, who were most likey taught by their parents etc. But if you were to somehow put all of that aside for a moment, what in your mind would seperate the "bible" from say the national Enquirer(sp?) ?

Both are Texts writen by multiple people about people places and stories. The bible has more credibility only in the fact that it has been passed on by belivers for so long(and edited and re-translated etc.).

I'm not trying to say that it isn't a belivable book I just want to understand, what about this book, makes it belivable to you as aposed to any other book? And why belive one-half of the book and not the other?

Is it that one contains materials that you wish not to except for your own reality?

I dont know I'm just confused about this.

lol, a very...blunt point, but a valid one.

I've gone through the whole religious debate, and I have found that the people on the other side of the table consciously ignore evidence that points in an opposite direction of their beliefs...no counter arguements, no theories to try and disprove it, just...ignoring it. At most, you'll get a "that's wrong, because the bible says so."

However, as I say, I've been down that road, and it was very long, very complex, and I guarentee it lasts forever. I have no real wish to go down it again

I personally think Jesus is real. At the very least, there is proof that he existed as a man. Places that are in the bible have been verified. Whether or not someone believes Jesus was the actual son of god is a different story.

The lost books are not considered to be a part of the bible. Even if they are proved to be legit, it is a done deal. If someone were to add these books, if would be creating a new religion, so I think for some people it is not rejecting the bible, since they were never a part of the bible to begin with.

I personally am not a practicing Catholic, and I cannot debate the pros and cons of the bible as well, as other members. I do think from what I learned, that the bible has lost something in translation. Many people don't realize (or just don't think about it), that when the bible was translated certain words did not translate over, so some things should not be taken as a literal translation.

The things I read about keeping some of the lost books out of the bible has been weak. The argument for them is stronger than the argument against them so, I do not reject the lost books.

I believe that the bible is real. In order for me to prove to you that the bible is real, you need to answer a question: Do you believe in God?

If you say yes, then you must believe in the bible for it is the word of God. It states the many miracles of Jesus Christ.

If you say no, you must then believe that the world was created by a series of accidents. By saying that the Universe was created by the big bang theory and the sun and Earth was just created, is like saying that if you pack a pile of wood and nails with dynamite it can explode to build a house.

The sun is the perfect distance away from Earth to sustain our life. There are 4 seasons (in most parts of the world) that never get too hot or too cold for life to exist. The orbit of Earth around the sun allows for humans to judge time perfectly, ie there is 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour, 24 hours in a day, 365 days in a year. We can tell when the seasons will change because it is always the same. It is so perfect that it never changes. Our moon also plays an important part for Earth because it's gravitational pull controls the tides.

Why do animals act the way they act? What makes the birds fly south in the winter and back north in the summer? We know that they fly south to keep warm and north because of the better breeding grounds, but how do the birds know that? How do they know that flying in a V shape is better for traveling? Lionesses in Africa work together as a team to kill the sickly animals in a herd. How do they know that if they act as a team then all of the lions can eat? Instinct tells them, but where does instinct come from?

Animals breath in oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide as a byproduct. We do this to survive. Plants need carbon dioxide for photosynthesis, and they give off oxygen as a byproduct. That's a pretty big coincidence.

Think about the human body. We have so many different systems that keep us alive and running smoothly. Our heart pumps our blood through vessels that lead to the lungs. The blood then exchanges carbon dioxide for oxygen and continues its travels throughout the body, exchanging oxygen for carbon dioxide to various cells to all parts of the body. This cycle continues until the day you die. So does the digestive system.

The cells in your body are constantly dividing. When a cell divides either by mitosis or meiosis (which I won't go into now because this post is long enough as it is) there are many stages that it must go through before it is finished. The way that DNA is replicated and how every small detail is taken care of really is a miracle. There are cells and molecules that are doing such astounding thngs right now that we can't even see. 200 years ago we didn't even know about them.

Now, as a scientist, I do believe in the big bang theory, evolution, etc., but I believe that God engineered all of it. As I stated before, you can't blow up some wood and nails and make a house.

So, Bigsteff or Undead Crow, what evidence suggests that the bible is not real? Can you tell me how these things happen without God?

Baby forrest,

That was the longest piece of nothing I have read in quite some time. You not only dodged a direct question, but you answered it with a question. Then you wrote about things that have nothing to do with the simplicity of the original question. It was like a mexican hat dance, you just kept going around, and around, and around, and around, and,...... well you get the point.

I believe that the bible is real, meaning it is a real book. Do I believe in God? No. Not everything has to be backed up with proof of existence. Just as some people have faith in God, some people have faith in the fact they just feel something isn't quite right about organized religion, and choose not to believe in it. The wind is real, I feel it on my skin, through my hair, but I cannot see it.


Some things are just opinion, and religion is one of them. Not one of us knows the right or wrong answer, because it ultimately lays in faith, whether that be faith that we feel it comes from spiritual depths, or from an organized layed out in front of you depth, or a scientific stand point. All of which, there is no right or wrong answer.

I personally like talking and debating religion, a lot of people don't and simply can't. Just remember, everyone here is right, to themselves. So, although this can be debated, there is no need to get angry or obnoxious. Keep this going in an open and mature way, because I have enjoyed reading all of the posts in this thread, except for the spectacle, as stated earlier.

So, don't be afraid to say one way or the other how you feel about something, without doing a dance. I don't think less of anyone that believes in something I don't. Maybe a little envious that I cannot except things blindly, and wishing that I had more faith in something that on paper sounds wonderful.



Reese

I'm sorry I was obnoxious, Reese. I thought I was making a valid point about the miracles of the world, and how I didn't think any of it could exist on it's own. I'll stop my 'dance' now. My intention was not to be annoying. If I sounded angry it's because I was a little upset because I was singled out even though I hadn't said anything for or against the bible. I just wanted to know why another member said what he said. After I asked for his opinion, I guess I just felt compelled to give my own. I won't post here anymore if that's how you feel.

Oh come now......... Did you read anywhere that I said or even suggested that I didn't want you to post here anymore? I am very blunt, and if I didn't say it, then I didn't think it.

You did get a tad angry, but not that bad, and you weren't obnoxious. Just long winded, and you ended up losing the initial attention and point you were making, because of that.

You shouldn't get angry at anyone, if they question you. You believe what you believe, and no one can say whether it is right or wrong.

Don't feel like you can't say things you believe. I wish more people here would have the balls to pipe up about what they believe religion wise, but no one ever does. Because someone always gets angry, instead of seeing that they just have a different perspective.

I am not religious by standard terms, I am however very spiritual, and I happen to like people that explain to me what they believe, and why. So everyone speak up here!!!! hehehe



Reese

The first paragraph of my post was directed to you, the rest was directed in general. (TO EVERYONE THAT BECOMES OBNOXIOUS OVER RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION)


Now, you seem to be getting obnoxious. (Don't take the leap through that door) Maybe you shouldn't type on the spur of the moment, but rather sit and think first, then type. Things become much clearer and less emotionally driven. You don't want to turn what I posted into something more than it is, do you?

Now, Baby Forrest, move on to a topical discussion, and it will be all good.. Ok?



I don't know if we believe the same things, either. If you explain to me what it is you believe. (Simply and to the point) then we can discuss it and see. I know that I always feel that I am the only one in the world that believes what I believe. (So, it would be nice to be on the same page with anyone.) Like I said before, these discussions don't last long here, because of the way people (in general) start to behave.



Reese

People, people, people! Come on now...as I've said, I've been down the religious debate road before, and it gets very nasty...this is usually how it starts. I'd suggest both sides hang up their gloves, eh? The longer it goes on, the more passionate about your arguements you're gonna get.

This thread was about Jesus "killing" and where it is located in the bible.
I would like this thread to stay open. There is so much to discuss about the lost books. There are other threads out there to discuss personal beliefs, aren't there?

Seraphina, and Sarkypi..


This thread can veer in any way it wants to. I am going to post what I want to about it, and if you both don't want to discuss it, look away.

Reese

there are many stories of Jesus life, i read about Jesus going to India, Jesus and Maria Madalena having a baby, Jesus was an alien, etc... and i dont belive in a single one of them.
One of the most powerfull empires of the world changed its religion, 1/4 of the world population has strong beliefs in Jesus because He was the only one to be perfect. The Bible says that Satan tried to seduce Jesus in the desert, because Jesus had no sin. Well, if he killed a boy, i think that would "count" like a sin.

That is interesting Spyro. So, you are a true Atheist, which means you just believe you exist?

I happen to look at religion (organized) as belonging to the mythology group, as well. Although, and I don't know if anyone else thinks this but, I look at old, old practices of religion and spirituality as probably being more true than what we see today.. I only make that assumption because that far back, you didn't have things being contorted and twisted to fit any certain group or reasoning. You just sort of had this spirituality, that just was. It was all so simple. Not bogged down by anything that clouds religion today. Like, the bible.


Reese