Hi all,

over the last few years several family members have passed on, god rest their souls, and it has made me start to question my own mortality.

i understand that we were born so that we could die, and several people have said to me that there is nothing to be afraid of when we die, because we wont know about it. one person quoted, "to know what it is like to be dead, think to a time before you were alive".

the question i have is, what will happen to the mind as we die. ive been feeling quite sick and imobilised when i think about. a cold feeling emerses my body and i get quite scared.

my body will eventually give up and stop working but my mind wont, and it will be forced to endure the shutting down of the body, but what will happen to my mind, will it be trapped in a decaying body, will i be asleep with no dreams forever in the darkest darkness, will my mind drift off with my last breath.

i used to talk to my mother about the dying mind, and she said that initially she was scared that this was going to happen to her, but the longer she lived the less it bothered her, and the same will happen to all people no matter who they are...

I beleive that this mystery of the mind is the most mysterious, and i would love to hear what other people think...

Hi there,

Has no one got any views on the subject?

mmmmmmm

I have a view on this subject, I must agree it sounds to be a scary thought, the losing of your mind and body slowly to death...but I have learned that it is just one of the things to look forward to in life. no matter how frightening it must be faced...just my view though

For most of my life I believed humans are nothing more than the matter contained within our bodies. Even when I acquired first hand knowledge to the contrary I did not change my belief for more than twenty years. I had personal proof of certain psychic phenomena that demonstrates conscious awareness is not bound by the brain nor is it limited in time to the present. Still, I assumed that when the body dies everything we are dies.

Once I finally accepted the fact that consciousness is not dependent on the brain or body I started to find a lot of evidence consistent with that idea. It's actually the other way around, our bodies depend upon our living (perhaps immortal) conscious. Look into NDE's for instance. Search on Edward Cayce, Seth material, OBE's. There is a lot of evidence.

If you believe you will cease to exist in every way when you die you take that belief on faith alone. There is no evidence to support that belief.

When I was in High School there was a time when I became obsessed with what happens after you die. I was raised a Catholic and was always taught to look forward to the afterlife in the kingdom of heaven. My philosophy has changed a great deal over the years. my many experiences have led me to believe that consciousness is considerably more than a neuro-electrical phenomena within our brains. I believe that we are far more than biological computation devices. Consciousness in my opinion is one of the three building blocks of the Universe we live in. The other two are light and the illusion of time. For some reason we are here as a test of time and dimension. I believe that not only will we continue to exist after our hardware fails but that we have always existed. Our consciousness is a very powerful thing that most of us have never learned to harness. This Universe operates on laws that transcend even its own existence. This is the great journey that I am on now to learn all that I can about just why we are here. As far as thinking about what it was like before you were born it is not really possible as long as you are grounded in cause and effect in this Universe. Timelessness and infinite calculation would make no sense. I always loved game theory and probability. We know that on the quantum level evrey sequence of events or possible events exist in a probability matrix and given enough time any probability is bound to happen. Knowing this the very words that I am typing right now have existed in this sequence "forever". If you want to have a little fun with it, say you wanted to play God and all you had to do it with was a computer it would be possible but only with enough speed to generate this number, a number that would have eneough variables to create in a virtual reality all possible universes and alternate permutations of those universes the number would be 10^137^137000 an absurdly large number but outside of time not large at all nor small. Its like the old million monkeys typing scenario, typing random characters given enough time a million monkeys could tyype the Bible or any other work. So you see I dont think about death much anymore because to me it just signifies going "Home". My God is a small g god and we are all gods.

ValpoSeeker, I agree with what you say there except for this...
You're forgetting that quantum mechanics is a formalism, an interpretation that is not necessarily a reflection of reality but certainly a reflection of our understanding of it. As you say, 'every sequence of events or possible events exists in a probability matrix'. You are right in saying that the POSSIBILITY exists but NOT EVERY EVENT itself because at any one time when 'observed' (either via measurement or experiment) only one of those probabilities manifests - hence only one exists and if not observed NONE do (instead of all) only the possibility of ALL. So at any time whilst any particle interacts with any other particle only one outcome manifests. This is the exact thing as saying that in lotto with 45 numbers (for example) any number can fall in any position of six (given it has not fallen before) but when the draw is run they only fall one way! We DO NOT redraw the same lotto (on same day at same time) multiple times do we. What QM tends to make people believe is that the same moment happens multiple times with multiple results - IMO, this is not so. Probability IMO is misleading because it has led people to believe that all events are present but you have to remember that the only thing that exists prior to observation is the POSSIBILITY of every event.

I am very much against multiverses and multiple realities, IMO this is a fallacy based on our misunderstanding. Just another possibility

My view is that the universe only runs one way, that way is already determined but our human analytical constructs and understanding make it feel like there is any possibility. But that's just how I see it

Cheers

Guardian

thanks for your views. i think ill end the thread here since it was starting to wander off from the original topic of conversation...

I guess in our Universe what you say is true. I believe this is because of cause and effect, however would you agree that with the absence of time caues and effect would be meaningless? In essence outside of our 3 dimensions all possibilities not only exist in probability but in real numbers. If all real numbers exist, which I believe that they do, all the way to infinity then it is not really a matter of collapsing the probability wave. I dont know if I am getting this accross clear. David Deutsch I believe has successfully proven that other universes indeed do exist with his quantum computing research. IMO the basic laws that govern the way the universe works transcend all that is our reality. I believe that when you speak of "Reality" it is in a limited scope of our cause and effect based universe. Can you see what I am saying?

According to Orion, Mind exists in Timelessness....so you will not have to worry about leaving this physical body and existing somewhere weird and dark. Even the folks that believe in Hell will not go to Hell - it does not exist. Sorry Bible people. Some folks I think refuse to leave this physical plane after they "die" and they have issues. I think we have a very difficult time expressing in words and quantifying what and where we will exist after you "die" because it sounds so truly unbelieveable really to most but I know what I know and I am sooooo much more than this. Mind is amazing. There are many theories. You should just start reading and figuring it out for yourself. What sounds right to you? What rings of truth in your ears?

Not that he is the authority on anything but I think that it is a good explanation. He wrote a post in here "Mind is All There Is", Orion Von Koch. I am sure you could look it up. You are much more than this body. It really is quite a transient period of time so to speak. Your Mind Consciousness is eternal IMO. You will experience death of this body but it will feel much better when you are able to shed this body of clay and experience what and who you truly are. You have a Mind Consciousness and a Soul consciousness I believe. Both of these exist outside, around and within your physical self. Since we are unable to see it and measure it Modern Man tells us that it does not really exist except physically (they are having a really hard time keeping it that way though - in denial that is) but hopefully someday someone will be able to quantify Mind and Soul. We have figured out the "energy" we all have but have not quite been able to fully quantify. I, personally, just do not have time to wait for everyone else to get it and prove it to the rest of the world. So for me, I do my own studying, experience for myself and trust my judgement and the way I feel about it, sincerely and truthfully. Does the answer given satisfy my question? Is it logical to me?

Sorry to have a double conversation here but mrhamblee has officialy declared his post resolved so I believe we can carry off on a tangent for a while, IMHO

ValpoSeeker, YES I agree that with the absence of time cause and effect would be meaningless. That is a given as cause and effect are clearly time dependant.

What I do not understand at this stage, so forgive me for my ignorance, is what you mean by 'real numbers exist' or perhaps you could shed some more light on this statement...can you expand on that? What exactly does this mean? Perhaps I'm missing something. How does a possibility exist outside 3 dimensions and in real numbers?

I must admit I haven't researched David Deutsch much or his work but it seems a bit dubious to prove that other universes exist. It is a paradox to 'observe' another universe from this one. Could you perhaps post a reference/link (preferrably a link) to where/how he has proven this. String Theory has been hypothesising about other universes and how gravity 'leaks' into them (hence the weak force) but without observing in the 'other' universe that this force is directly related to the one that has leaked out of ours it is just a very very weak conjecture.

And yes, when I speak of reality and indeed the universe I have nothing else to speak of but that which we know - our universe. A clear definition of a universe is that which we can observe as a universe - the here & all around. A universe cannot be 2 different things, we would be dissolving that which all we say is based on - our language.

That which we observe as our universe WITHOUT time is no longer a universe as we know it. We would have to give it a new name if we want to ponder such things. I don't know if I've explained myself well but I hope you understand what I mean.

I do believe I am missing something in this discussion, so forgive, I may be viewing 'timelessness' as something different to your interpretation

Cheers

You're mind does die with your body, it's a natural price of life in which everything has to pay toll to eventually. Death is a good thing. When a body gets too old and too frail, what good does it do for the earth? Absolutely nothing. I guess it may seem as a harsh way of saying things, but it's the truth and the truth isn't always pretty. It's part of natures way of getting rid of the weak.

I see death on a regular basis, I work at an assisted living residence where I am a care giver to those who cannot do things for themselves. I have seen many stages of the mind and body giving away. I honestly think it's much better when their mind goes before their body does. Death doesn't seem as bad when they don't really realize what's going on. The people who I have had to watch die who was with it completely was the worse, they knew they were going to die but they were ready for it. When the pain is too much to take, when you're too sick.. is that really living? Is life always about breathing.. or is it also about the quality, the enrichment that you get out of it? Although it's really sad to see them go (You get really attached to them) it's a relief. Too many people mourn for the wrong reasons; they think about themselves other than what that current person's state of health and mind were-- they'd rather see them still living in pain because they don't want to let go of them.

I think at a young age we are afraid to die because even the most religious people have questioned whether or not there was something after life. Would it be so bad if there wasn't anything-- after all we wouldn't even realize it. I personally don't think our conscious lives after death and I don't think we know enough about how the brain works to even come to that conclusion. I just don't understand why people cannot take at face value that there just may be nothing after life... it seems to be the most logical explanation. At least it seems more logical than a supernatural being. It also seems the most relieving to me. I wouldn't want to be around forever, I want there to be an end.

How about, think about how it was when you had a dreamless sleep. Right before you wake up. You can't remember anything, but you did exist!


I believer in an afterlife, so yeah. If consciousness is only part of the brain, then we ARE basically computers and aren't really alive. We are no more alive than a computer is. Wich is obviously not the case. In my opinion, there's plenty of evidence the consciousness is not part of the brain. Just being alive and aware is enough for me to believe.

The mind is like a mirror in the body, if you stop looking into it, you lose it.

My view:

When you die, you die. That's it, no conciousness, no thaughts, no nothing. Religion dictates that you will have an afterlife, but then again, religions were formed millenias ago by people who for example, when saw lightning, were unable to explain it in scientific terms and therefore opted for creating a higher form which was passed down from generation to generation. By this time religion is deeply routed in our societies. And hey, religion is convenient, because their figure heads are thaught to be able to do anything. So when something weird happens that people don't understand, you can just easily say "Almighty Bob did it. He works in mysterious ways."

The Bible was actually written by a Roman emperor (whose name escapes me now). Or rather, by his men. It's like some people from the neighbourhood decide to get together and write the spiritual guide for thousands of generations to come.

Over the years science has proven too many aspects of religions wrong for them to be reliable personally to me.

The one and only thing that anyone is alive for is to reproduce, keep the species going. We are born, we reproduce and die. That's our purpose in life, just like it is that of the fly you swatted the other day.

No one has succeeded yet in explaining away ghosts, and they have tried a lot.
The more machinery they have pulled out and improved the more their machines have told them something is there.
It is not an illusion of religion.

The after-life is not only a religios construct. It's just spiritual. There's plenty of evidence for the afterlife in my opinion.

Hmmm.....I do not really follow any particular religion. I would say I pretty far from Religious and I am not really following your thought processes about it all but that is fine. Some Emperors Men wrote the Bible? Hmmm...I am not sure I have quite heard that before. I am wondering if you are just purposely trying to conflict. The part about reproducing is quite interesting as well.

"Bacteria is driven by genetic programming to eat, breed and defecate without limit. “Enough” is not a concept bacteria is capable of knowing. And created in God's own image... I would suggest that you wake up, but you have most likely identifed yourself and lived your entire existence within the tautological existential bubble of this Soul-less bacteria-engendered disease vector/parasite that so arrogantly terms itself homo sapiens. Within this bubble there is no possibility of waking up to anything approaching true reality. All the belief, all the faith, all the death and destruction that a super bacterium can muster can't make any difference: you can't see anything outside yourself, never mind know what you can't conceive. Tautology ad nauseum...

Not even after we have succeeded in killing ourselves by totally poisoning our host through our over-breeding and overwhelming volume of toxic human waste. Divine intervention... from the Bacterial God... maybe humans are that mentally defective... and this is all just one more proof that we are made in His own image." The Human Genome

This is what I mean. Everything inexplicable is thaught to do with god... until science does explain it. Then we know it wasn't god after all. Then that makes you think... why believe in a religion which keeps getting proven wrong? By the way, ghosts' existance has not been even proved yet.

I disagree with the machine part. Every time something is proven and demonstrated scientifically, that's one more piece of religion forgotten. If man kinda continued evolving for ever, all mysteries would eventually be discovered 1 by 1 until there are none left. And therefore no god.



Of course you didn't hear about the Roman emperor who got his men to write the bible. Why? Because the church doesn't want to tell you or themselves that your and their spiritual guide was written by some random people in Rome. They want it to sound like it was written by divine powers. So they say god made the romans write the Bible. I am by no means what so ever trying to create conflict here.

About the bacteria thing: we are precisely like that bacteria. The only difference between that bacteria and us is that we can think. We can think about the universe we live in, we can discover things about it. We can think about spirituality and philosophy and pass this information on.. But in essence, we are that germ. Our instincts are the same. We reproduce and die, each generation making the life for the future generations better. If we were more than just germs, we would not grow, reproduce and die. But the fact is we are. And we always will be. People just prefer to think that they did not evolve from smelly monkeys. They prefer not to belive that we are just like the smallest, stupidest and most disgusting creatures, so they simply dont. They want to be considered higher. They create gods exclusively for themselves. But, again, all we do is reproduce for our species to carry on.

Imagine if we could not pass all the information that we gather onward. Every time a generation is born, they will start from scratch. Einstein knew one of the greatest secrets of physics of all times, but he died and he didnt write any of that information on. We would be like cavemen. We would be like the bacteria. Kill cow, eat cow, excrete cow, reproduce, die. That is the real human being inside all of us.

Humans are not mentally defective. They are mentally perfect. The CEO of a big company dumps tonnes of radio active waste into the sea, destroying the environment, fish and stuff. Why? So he can get more money. What for? So he can get a better house for him and his children to live in. To secure the future of his children. To eat better. Perfect. This is exactly what instincts tell us to do. The problem is over population. With a low population this would not be a problem. But then again, hey, why do we have over population? Because so many of our kids survive! Why do they survive? Because we make them better medicine, food, shelter and hygine! Perfect! We are really protecting our offspring. The real problem is that this happened all too fast. If this would have happened much slower, we would have been able to evolve and only be capable of having 1 child or something. The speed at which humans evolve is their only biological flaw.

lots of good views there, some a bit supsect for my own liking. thanks

I had to think about this for awhile because it is not that easy to explain. I know what I am thinking but communicating it is another story. You said the universe cant be two different things, I couldnt disagree more. What you are referring to is our perception of reality and not necessarily mathematical reality. In my earlier post I called it a real number line but what I was trying to say was that outrside of our universe mathematical reality exists whether we exist or not. On the most basic level we can describe our brain as a computer running software. Software that is based on numbers ie mathematical equations, if all equations exist in an infinite number line as mathematical reality then it goes without saying that our thoughts and actions are more than just a probability and do not require observation. What Im trying to say is we are more real than the universe that we live in ie the universe requires us but we do not require the universe. Think about it this way, if I could duplicate in a laboratory neural connections and replace the input to your brain from all of your senses with identical computer generated input would your perception of the input be any different? Would your universe seem any less real? Of course not, you would not know the difference, I could make you believe you were feeling pain, walking or talking whatever I programmed in. In essence you are running software, i guess it kind of sounds like The Matrix but like I said if all real numbers exist outside of our physical reality then that means all of the software already exists. This means that outside of time every action and reaction exists in more than probability they exist as software. It is my beliefe that the sum of this software is zero point, the creator or whatever you want to call it. If I am right there is an equation for us to leave this universe and "Go Home". We have numbers in this universe that contain the information, Pi and Phi irrational infinite numbers. Just like a white bitmap on your computer can be turned into any possible picture up to the limit of the pixels so to can our realuty be changed only without limit. I hope I dont sound like a fool but this stuff is quite confusing to me but these thought s began after my sleep deprivation in 2004. I hope someday I can put these thoughts together in a more cohesive manner. Until then.........

Without mind, there can never be any experience... Its complete nothingness, total silence! It is the nothing from where every life/experience starts and it is the final destination.

What I am most scared of is: What if your brain "freezes" when you die?
What if your brain freezes in your last thought, your last feeling or your last pain?

That would mean that if a person dies while on fire. (Which is prolly the most painful thing that can happen to a person.) He would be forced into unimaginable, excruciating pain. Which would last until either his brain rots away or his body is burned.

Of cause it wouldn't matter as the person wouldn't even realize the pain.. But still a very nasty thought

Death is not the great mind killer...fear is. It is interesting that most people are afraid of death....while at the same time acknowledging that 'everything dies'.

It really isn't death we are afraid of...as the two above posts point out, it is the .....fear of what happens immediatly preceding death...that grips people by the throat.

No, it's the death we are afraid of. It's a primodial instinct. If it wasn't death we were afraid of, our species would have been trampled to death by mammoths or something.

About 'everyone dies'. Yes, everyone does die, but we make sure that we don't die prematurely, so the human (and all animal) instincts make us scared of death before our time.

What can I say? Death is like rolling a couple of dices.. lucky 7 and you get eternal paradise, snake eyes and you get a perpetual state of pain.
Everyone are afraid of the snake eyes

(Oh btw Wombat I love your sig
The statement below is true.
The statement above is false.
Got a very "if-a-tree-falls-in-a-forest" sound to it)

What, if you are unlucky once you spend the rest of eternity in pain?

Thanks
What is if-a-tree-falls-in-a-forest?

You say "Oh well.. You win some, you lose some." And walk away from the table

i know its a change of subject but it needs answering...

if a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound....

the answer is in the physics of sound and sound reception...

sound is waves that disperse through the medium of air, ground and water.

sound is caused by many different types of impact...

sound waves only spread out so far depending on the strength of the impact and the medium in which they travel...

ears drums are designed to pick up these vibrations in the air, and can also pick them up in water, and ground...

someone would have to be in the vacinity of the waves of the falling tree in order to be able to pick up the sound...

so answer: only if someone was in the vacinity of the falling tree. there is no Yes or No answer to that and many other questions i could think of..

kind regards

Hmm... it does make a sound, just that noone can hear it...

not quite...

it makes a sound wave...your ear drums transmits the waves to the brain, and the brain interprets it as sound...
so if no one was around all it makes is a sound wave...no sound until it a brain interprets the wave...

kind regards

Coming back to same thing -

There must be a mind to experience, otherwise it does not exist... the sound or the pain of death or the fear of death!

Without mind/experience no sound, no pain and get ready for the surprise....

NO DEATH!!!! -> ITERNITY...... Are you ready for this?