When I first embarked on the journey of learning the history of my prior religion I was shocked to say the least. Except for the Christian Crusades many of these things were not taught in school or church. I was always the type of person who read into multiple sources and weighed the evidence.

Yet I had delved into a religion in which I had not even slightly researched. I had just accepted that the bible was the absolute truth. I discounted history of a religion as just that however I was truly unaware of how much history shapes the world we live in and that it is really no different as to where religion is concerned. After learning some of the things I had about my religion (Christianity) I began to wonder how many people that practiced it were really aware of its history. I wondered as well if people would really rethink their faith if they were willing to see the evidence before them.

Do people of faith really consider fully the reilgion they are delving into? My own experience has been that most people have no idea of the history of their religion and how that history clearly effects how they think now. Most people are familar with the Christian Crusades and council of nicea but not all the other wonderful additives that have shaped their own beliefs.

During the times Christianity started having an effect on the world the church obviously gained control in any way nesessary. Sometimes they convinced people that they were too dumb to interpret the bible and therefore their salvation would lye within the church. Sometimes they took pagan holidays and converted them to be about Christ. Sometimes they made of legends of witches and werewolves. Sometimes they they even converted people by force and other times they played upon their worst fears convincing people if they didn't believe they would be subjected to a fiery torment. When you really study the history of the religion can you really know if these people can be trusted?

Ever think about this...In modern day christianity we are told never to question the bible that it is God's Holy word. but who wrote it? And if you say men wrote it but it was inspired by God don't you than wonder if men have flaws what makes you think they don't in regards to writing the bible? And if you say that God would not allow that to happen well I must disagree because he allowed the holocaust and that was pretty horrible and devasted millions of lives and changed the course of mankind as we know it.

it just seems to me personally that the church's strong hold than still keeps it hold with fear of torment in not believing. With excuses that Mithra was the work of the devil and thats why the chilling similarities between Mithra's life and Jesus's life. That Wiccans were really worshipping satan and evil witches. Infact when I really look at the whole picture I think the church was rather ingenious in their take over. When all else fails either use force or convince people that anything that doubts what they've been told is the devil. How might one ever learn any truth if they fear doubt of their own God what a powerful way to keep such a thing going......Just my thoughts. Feel free to add input, I'm just a student in this life.

Good post. I agree with much of what you wrote. CHristianity has an unfortunate history. I do tend to think that this is not a reflection on God or on the Bible, but on the people that claimed to work in God's name.

That said, I'd like to discuss just one point in your post, the only one that (in my opinion) was blatantly incorrect:

You are right that some institutions, specifically cults, discourage questions. And yes, some brands of mainstream Chrsitaintiy also teach not to question. However, I submit that this is an unbiblical teaching. The Bible encourages questions. Test it, it says. John the Baptist, who once said of Jesus Behold the Lamb of God, the HOly One, later in his life, while he was being persecuted (about to be beheaded), he questioned - Are you the one that was prophecied? Are you the Messiah? Or just a prophet.

I'm paraphrasing, but the point is this: It is ok to question. Questioning is natural. Especially for something as intangible as the existence of God, and the validity of texts.

Though to play devils advocate, some might say the religious only ask questions they (deep down) already know the answers too. I don't agree with that assessment personally, but it's a valid statement none-the-less. I'm sure there are also people who don't question, who blindly follow, despite that they know it's ok to question. But that is another issue altogether.

QUestions are natural. They are not a sin in any way. ANd it is unbiblical to say that it is a sin.

Just a few thoughts.

Regards, PA

PA firstly thank you for your thoughts. I must ask first off are you fully aware of the history of your religion? Does it make you further wonder the validity of what is being taught currently?

In regards to questioning the bible...yes specific cults teach not to question but the problem is that many main stream churches as you infact mentioned teach the same thing but biastly. the following is my own personal experience and does not reflect upon the whole; When I did question the bible and the interpretations in sunday school I was told I was incorrect.

The following is my personal view PA so bare with me; If we can question the bible as you say than what do we question it against? Everything that you can question it against is told to be a lie or the work of the devil according to many churches. It doesn't make sense in my view to say its okay to question scripture but than anything that goes against scripture isn't of God. You see what I mean? How do you possibly test a book that is said to be the word of God? You can't. Even if someone were to point out inconsistencies the church saids you are interpretating it wrong. if you point out the fact that miracles and near death experiences occure in every religion and non religion than you are told that the other experiences that counter the bible are works of the devil decieving us. it just seems to me that one cannot question a book that if one goes against it it isn't from god. that is pretty powerful you must admit. I must admit from experience that it was not God himself that instilled all this in me but religion...the religion of men who are full of flaws as history has shown. Just my thoughts.

I hear ya. As people know by now (hopefully), I don't put much stock in what a church tells me, or in what a minister preaches from the pulpit. My study and knowledge of the Bible has come, primarily, from studying the Bible itself. It's not a matter of the church telling me that I'm interpreting something wrong, I have come to the conclusion on my own that it is True.

However, I do admit that I have come to this conclusion because of my Faith. Maybe it has blinded me to some extent (I'm sure zandore's going to quote this one line of my post make an affirmitive comment and ignore the rest, but hey, you get that) but I have come to the conclusion taht the Bible is right. This is not because of what anyone has told me, but because of the study that I have done, of the reading I have done and of the experiences that I have had.

To your first question, I have studied the history of the church. The rituals, the festivals, the holidays, the persecutions. I do know it. As I said in my opening post, this (to me) is not a reflection on the Bible, or on God, but on the people that claim to be working in God's name.

Now, this is only my opinion, and my experience, it's not a definitive statement of my proof. It's my turn now to thank you for bearing with me

Regards, PA

PA and I said to Irish I cannot debate your faith. If you know the history and you believe than this is your choice and yours alone. Unfortunately many people do not. Many people go in and stay in with the blinders on. Perhoas partially it is just human biast that we see and hear what we want to. A person's faith never scares me it is the control that others take by it and people not making them fully aware that scares me. You can be right perhaps it can be a reflection on the people practicing God's words but on another note it also does not stop them from changing words either....the words Christians depend on for their salvation. Just my thoughts. Thank you for bearing with me as well.

Don't confuse the influence of a Church and what's written in the Bible.

Theoretically speaking, a "Christian" church could open up tomorrow that followed satanic principles. It wouldn't be Biblically Christian.

If christians were to follow the words of Jesus, they would all be Jews. No, I don't care what Paul said about anything.

I like this point that you made. Also modern Christians are not responsible for the actions of Christians of the past. I don't view Christianity as being the problem necessarily. I think that it's certain people and the decisions that they make.

Its quite possible the church's influence historically changed what is written in the bible.

A quote from a unlikely source:
"I never hated a One True God, but the god of the people I hated"
(name the source )

That's kind of the way I see it. Christianity, and most other religions, is in its essence a good thing, but then mankind comes along and corrupts it.
The christian church is as derailed from pure christianity as can be.
Now I'm not saying all christians are bad, in fact most of them are probably good people, but the people on the top are not the ones that should be there. In my opinion

That is true. But it is fortunate and unfortunate at the same time. Why it is unfortunate is obvious, many people suffered and were persecuted because of Christianism. But why is it fortunate at the same time? Well, in practical means, if Christianity didn't get as much power we probably would have never got out of the Dark Ages after the collapse of Rome and we would still be living in barbarism.



Unfortunately that's also true. But (I'm a little bit ignorant regarding the Protestant Churches) that only happened in the Catholic Church and only untill Vatican II, however, even before it, there would be many who would disagree with those doctrines.



Half true. It happened. But most of times it were the converted pagans who transformed their hollidays into christian's.



Not true. There were self-proclaimed witches much before Christianism stepped pagan lands. Werewolves are not a Christian belief.



Sadly, it's true. But converting the pagans by force near the end of the roman empire was not a common practice, it happened only exceptionaly. When you said "if they didn't believe they would be subjected to a fiery torment." did you mean that if they didn't believe they were going to hell? If yes then that's just not how they would convert them. First, because many pagans already believed in some sort of hell, secondly, because if they didn't believe in Christianism and didn't believe in hell then they wouldn't believe they would go to hell for not believing . The image of hell can be used to keep people in line after conversion, not to convert.



No they cannot be trusted. Not them and not any other group of people. However, honestly, I would more easily trust a priest I find on the street than the average person.



PA said it. Not in modern day anymore.



Hollocaust - God doesn't act, respects free-will. Writing the Bible was telling the story of God and his people (AT) and the story of Jesus (NT). There are some flaws in AT because it tells the story of people and, as people, they have flaws. Because the NT tells the story of Jesus there shouldn't be any flaws and I must say I haven't ever found a flaw in NT.



There are many churches. Today, there is none that I'm acknowledge of that acts like that.



There have been so many threads, books and discussions about the Mitraism thing that I don't know if it will change anything if I tell my position regarding that. There's a still active thread about that in this forum that partially focus on that same question, if you're interested I recommend you to take a look (if yo haven't already). As for the Wiccans, I must say I don't know much about them so I better keep quiet so that I don't saying something stupid.



In the long term, yes. Their methods wouldn't have worked on the world of today, I completely agree with you. Today, they loose more people because of what they did in the past than in the present.

I must agree with most of what you say but I think you shouldn't stop believing in a religion just because of what it did. If there were Evolutionists that were liars and murderers it wouldn't make me stop believing in Darwin (which, for the record, I do).

Name the source? Marilyn Manson? Am I right?

yes, hehe.
And to everyone; plaase don't judge me or my thoughts just because I've quoted him

You can no more judge a religion on its history as you can a culture on its history. We Irish have been shooting our own arsess off for the past 400 years and if I were to judge my Irish brothers and sisters from our past mistakes it would not be favorable. The truth is they most are basically good people, a few have been led astray by violence and hatred but most have not.
Christianity in its purest form has always existed in the hearts of believers and is apposed to the violence and hatred that is spewed by a few that claims to be church leaders. It’s these evil minded people that leave their foul mark on recorded history, but I am confident that a loving God knows their hearts as well as He knows mine and at the end of the day they bring judgment on them selves for using His word to fulfill their own greed’s and lusts for power.
Irish

Irish what would you base an assesment on then if not the history or the culture???? just curious.....namaste Sheri

Hi El_burdokai
First I will try to address the points you made. Please bare with because I haven't quite mastered the sectional quoting so I apologize.

I disagree that the church was responsible for pulling the world out of the dark ages.
Not when the church gained an enormous amount of wealth at that time while everyone else suffered in poverty. Not to mention it declined and discouragement any advancment of medicine at that time except blood letting.

I'm not very familar with the protestant reformation myself. I do believe during the time of the reformation force of conversion was abandoned for more of a fear aspect. It seemed to go from one tactic to another which unfortunately also led to the killing of many people with the declaration of the church that it was because they praticed with craft.

There might have been self proclaimed witches, very true but witches were wiccans. They did not practice satanic things but were orginally healers who used herbs to heal people. The church adopted a new stance on witches convincing people that they did the work of satan and even today the images of old ladies on broomsticks still holds it clout.
As for werewolves....you say Christians don't believe? It was actually the inquisition that spread the belief of werewolves. In 1484 pope Innocent VIII officaially ordered that pets could be possesssed and should be burned with witches. many people began to panik under the assumption that rabid dogs were infact possesssed by the devil.

About the pagan holidays. The church was responsible for transforming Pagan holidays to Christian ones. Pagans might have went along but they did not have the power to adopt a holiday for Christ. The church had this power. They also shaped certain holidays to fit Pagan holidays as to convert more people.

Conversion by force was still effective and commonly practiced after the fall of the Roman empire. Remember the inquisition did not even start until after the Roman empire fell.

You would trust a priest more than an average joe? Why? Because he is condoned by the church means nothing. Just look at the current molestation charges and how the church covered them up. I must say I have lost trust of the church.

I must also disagree that churches still teach people not to question the bible. It is a practice that still goes on and believe me after visiting many churches I can tell you its done very suttley but done.

I respect your view of the NT but I must say there are indeed flaws. Just as a small example the story of Mary at the tomb changes between each gospel. One gospel is so drastically different it tells of someone else seeing Jesus first. However that should be another whole topic altogether you know what I mean?

I know many churches especially in my neck of the woods who cry devil and torment at the sinners. I sat in on a sermon one time and was literally so terrified by the fury of this pastor that I got up and left. When your in the South its common place dear.

I appreciate your response and thoughts. Its always good to have the input and different perspective. I did not give up on my religion because of its history I gave up on it in part for its unwillingness to break away from its history and traditions that indoctrinated by churches long ago. The other reason...I just didn't agree.

He's certainly free to give his (probably different than mine) answer to the question, but my answer would be this:

You can't assess an entire group of people based on anything. When you assess in groups you ignore individualism.

Hi Irish.
I have to beg to the differ. You can look at the religion's history and still see a current religion trapped within the confines of the indoctrinations of churches in the past. The history does directly effect the current belief system in many ways.
It is my opinion solely that the history of Christianity has blinded people to the truth and even today most Christian people I know are unaware of their religion's history. granted the crusades no longer take place and yes, we no longer burn witches but there many other things instilled in that time that still have an effect on the religion and its people's views.

I think we can all agree things are different from individual to the next but what Irish is talking about is not my point. My point mainly is how the history of that particular religion still effects the doctrines and teachings of the modern church and how many people are completely oblivious to it and follow blindly.

gudam dudes! ...uhhmmm, i have read alot of articles about different religions and hisotry of religion...i do agree with you that there are lot of flaws about the history of any pareticluar religion, particularly christianity.....but i just want to say a simple message: noone is ever put right w/ God by doing what the laws require...man is put right w/ god thru his/her faith...and by putting that faith in action...one might claim he is a christian, but is he acting as one...or 1 could say iam a hindo or a baptist...but does their actions reflect the good claims about their religion....thanks!goo dday![i][font=Comic Sans Ms][color=#3333FF]

Star i would add if you don't mind my 2 cents that even if you aren't religous you are still incorporating the beleifs in your life , Religion permeates most thing, Racism, inequal treatment of others, certain classes being inferior, , superiority, the mass consent that there are some who should have the majority of the resources because they go there first,(usually low down dirty ways too, all very biblical in origin... The way the majority define love as need as conditonal, the majority of the parents are parenting children under a reward punishment regime this applys whether they are religous or not also.....namaste sheri

If Christian people are blind to their own history it is because they choose to be that way, I am personally fascinated by history in general and I am not blinded in anyway for being a Christian. I have a lot of my family and friends that are English and the English have a notorious history of conquest and pillaging other races and cultures throughout history including my own culture. But I would be wrong to place that blame on the individual English citizen and tell them to deny their belief and nationality based on sordid historical deeds of a few.
The same can be said for Christians today. it would be silly to blame PA, NxT2hvn and Myself for the wrongs of the crusades or the Salem witch trials. Every nationality, culture, political systems and Religion have had their fair share of evil tyrants in positions of power but as I said before you don’t through the baby out with the bathwater.
Their has been far more good done by individual Christians in the history of mankind than evil, yet that is never recorded because it is not news worthy and never made the history books as being significant.
Irish

A few of you here continually focus on the flaws of religion, yet ignore the similar effects of politics, culture, philosophy and race as being the bane of civilization.
Religion by definition to me is a structured form of belief and actions that is shared and practiced by others.
If you agree with the above statement than politics’ and philosophy are also forms of religious expression. Therefore life would almost be pointless without our believes systems we would only be concerned with food shelter and propagating our own species and we would be no better than wild beasts and have no need for civilization nor structure in society.
Our believes, encompass religion, politics, philosophy and art and if you take away even one you impose restriction on free will itself.
I suppose to enjoy the benefits of politics, art, philosophy or religion we must except the downside to such believes as well the few tyrants who abuse them.
Irish

Sheri I never mind your two cents sometimes I find them rather shiny cents!
I'm afraid I didn't really interpret part of what you said and I would not like to misunderstand.
Did you mean that even though I'm not religious that I still incorporate the beliefs in my life? Or did you mean something else?

I cannot disagree with you on the racism, inequality and such that still seems very much a part of many religions today. Infact it is concretely stated in the bible and you are correct.
I think religion has actually added to the concept of love as being conditional. If we look in the bible old and new testament we are told and shown time and time again that God's love for us is based on obedience and belief.

Irish you aren't seeing that what if we had new beleifs what if we redefined god? I have done that on a personal level and have reaped amazing benefits not for just myself but the lives i touch i simply startted seeing my plight as the same with all others What if we said our sacred scripttures aren't serving us or the offshoots that have sprung up becasue of religon, you have people who refuse to except responsibility for the beleifs of many, a place to start is not support a system that supports harm to anyone make that a new law , as consumers we have alot of say what we don't support has to change or it won't hold up, maybe not everything has been said about life maybe there are so many horizions we haven't charted. EAch of us here is integral to the whole we oil the wheels of the great hub we call society, How do you want to oil it?? you know Irish i tell my kids you are here to change the world its up to you how you do that, Imagine if we asked each other these questions, beleifs and the supporting of them got us here now its time to redine, create new beliefs that will get us in the right direction one of peace or kindness towards each other. but first we as a whole have to decide if we even care about each other..........namaste sheri

Star not you literally, but the whole regardless of whether i'm religous or not I still deal with the effects of it much like you were saying, now I am not intolerant or etc but i will confront it in my life daily thats what I meant i was supporting your line of thinking , i probably think too much lol Also one needs to be dillignet as to be aware we live in a very 'religious' society and one learns to work with it or around it....namaste Sherii

Sheri if we could rewrite politics philosophy and religion there is no guarantee that history would not repeat itself. In fact as long as there are greedy people in search of power and wealth I think you could be assured of the very same mistakes of the past. The fly in the ointment is mankind itself!
Your thoughts and aspiration are noble but I’m afraid you end up with the same problems in a new light.
Irish

Irish, is this the same guy that stands in awe of a sunset???the fact that people are chging beleifs in of itself rewrites history, irish you don't have to leave the house or do anything except mentally support one idea that will benefit all of us you choose??What would it be irish????

I guess I am like the Monty Python fella; I always look on the bright side of life. There are no flaws in a sunset or in a starry night. But as far as people go you have to look a little closer to see the things of beauty and over look their flaws. You need not change the world only the way you perceive it. I will die wearing my rose colored glasses because I simply don’t have to look at the negative of the things I can not change. But I cherish the things I can improve and make a difference.
So sing along with me "always look on the bright side of life"

Gotcha dear Thank you for clarifying. Yes I agree with you that whether one is religious or not they are effected by religious intolerances. Believe me I understand how you feel. I live in a part of the world that is mainly Christian and not as to offend many good Christians out there or "group" but predominately the Southern baptist movement here seeks to conform others to their beliefs.

Now perhaps it is different in other parts of the world or this country but where I live it is predominately controlled by Southern Baptists who join together to control what they can and whatever they disagree with. A little off topic of history but as an example of the control the church still has;

In the first election of Bush we were bluntly told in church by our pastor that it was our Christian duty to vote for "you know who" he said. After church there were flyers on our windshields with pictures of aborted babies and a statement that Gore promoted this.
Other people I talked to from different churches endured the same thing. Sometimes the suggestions are very suttle but many times the bible is used to control and enforce society to what certain people regard as the absolute truth. I'm still sitting wondering why we still have blue laws that prohibit us from buying alcohol on sundays? Okay but I'm rambling and off topic......

but irish,

is not the flaws that define us?

All of my favorite people are flawed

Irish I do not place blame on Christians for the history of there religion nor do I wish to group. Yes I agree that you cannot judge individuals based on the history of their culture. I cannot judge individual Christians based on their beliefs as each person differs. What i can do is look at the history of the religion and see that many half truths are still taught and people believe them without being fully aware of them and yes some of these misconceptions currently create intolreance and ignorance about things.

The witch trials and crusades and so forth was an unfortunate part of the religion but there are many other things that I am talking about as in regards to the church influence which still holds true today. Influences that are still being taught which orginated from a church who sought control. I'm a little lost on how this is compared to judging an individual? Unless I have said something that you regarded as such which was not my intention so I apologize if I have done so.

That is always the way of things.

I took it to mean something else. If you had a wallet full of hundred dollar bills, not that you'd hand it over to anyone, but let's pretend for some reason you do have to turn it over, and expect to get it back at some point. Would you give it to Joe Blog. Or a priest? I think I'd trust the priest to give it back to me with the money still inside.

Have you ever heard of the Jubilee, Sheri? It is a biblical concept, and totally refutes your post here. Who gets there first, who has the most, these are irrelevant, and the Jubilee makes sure of that

Do some research and get back to me, ok

Regards, PA

I tend to think we are in a secular society. What you see on TV, in the movies, on advertising boards, in music, books, conversation. Nothing is godly. All is pointed towards a secular society.

my opinion only, of course.

It most certainly is different

WTF???? That's a new one to me. I buy alcohol on Sunday all the time (well, not all the time, sometimes, but that's not the point).

PA
I see the point you are making as in regards to money but the truth is we do not know people's hearts. Just because someone is a priest does not mean they are not just as capable of stealing your money as the next Joe. Just as some side humor here; I've given lots of money to the church and I never have seen it again.

Oh dear PA your part of the world might be very different indeed.
Yes we are not allowed to buy alcohol on sundays because of church. Up until recently you couldn't even drink in a private restaurant on sunday the sale of alcohol was stricky forbidden. They changed the law to state that a restaurant may indeed sell alcohol if they sold food however this is not always the case. Some restaurants are strickly forbidden from serving any alcohol on sunday. No other grocery store or convient store may sell it on sunday. They actually lock the doors to the alcohol on midnight sunday and they may not sell it until monday morning after 6am in some cases.

In one county the sale of alcohol was forbidden through the whole county, it was a church run legislation. However they changed it only after people were getting busted all the time crossing over the county line to buy alcohol and bring it back.....and mind you they weren't allowed to buy it or sell it at all on any day of the week. How bout them apples?

Oh, I don't agree that being a priest makes one invulnerable to the temptation of money. But I would be more inclined to trust a priest of any religious denomination than I would some dude I saw on the street.

btw, very funny

I've come to that conclusion myself many times.

Regards, PA

Ummm it's not just PA's part of the world but here we can buy alcohol any day of the week and that includes Sundays