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Full Version: Isaiah 53. your thoughts on this prohesy.
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Spirituality vs Skepticism
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P4P3R T1G3R2
QUOTE(mako @ Mar 8 2006, 07:51 PM) [snapback]1095233[/snapback]

Not but that would explain his total ignorance of history. What's the matter tags, is home schooling getting boring? yes.gif

You're how old? Your history is much more laughable than his. You present some of the worst knowledge on European history which discredits you significantly. Oh nice ad-hominem, something you're good at, hey gramps?

Also you possibly had zero schooling because your math is horrible.

Tags...born in...2 December 1980

So 25 years old = 16? WOW! *CLAP, CLAP, CLAP*

QUOTE(zandore @ Mar 8 2006, 07:49 PM) [snapback]1095226[/snapback]

Mako....did you see that Tags is only 16?

Tags: It is spelled PAT not prat.


Zandore, 1980-2006 does not equal 16! Funny how you try to correct a minor spelling error (which everyone does a typo) but you can't even do second grade math. Sad, sad, sad... no.gif
tags
QUOTE(tags @ Mar 9 2006, 01:36 AM) [snapback]1095722[/snapback]

Can no one see what I am getting at here? Is no one going to agree that this is a possibility at least? The theology affects the grammatical element.

As above!
P4P3R T1G3R2
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Mar 9 2006, 02:27 AM) [snapback]1095816[/snapback]

Ohh I can just see Kit changing his sig yes.gif w00t.gif

My 5 year old cousin can create a coherent post, something you fail at. Your posts contribute nothing and I am well aware of the fact that he won't change it, people love to swim in ignorance and hold to what they want despite being proven false.
Venomshocker
QUOTE
Before continuing the ignorance of your sig, the Trinity pre-dates 325 A.D....


The concept of the trinity may exist before 325 AD, but this belief wasnt standardized until 325AD, when the council voted on it. There was alot of voting, and killing and disagreeing, etc. going on at these councils. Not exactly a peacefull process....and the process itself is highly suspect. There was alot of manipulating devil.gif of some very core ideologies in christianity at these councils that forever changed the course of western civilizations. And I must remind you that these councils didnt always have THE TRUTH or the general well being of the christian populace in mind. As such can be seen with the the ousting of the belif of reincarnation at the council in 545 AD.


QUOTE
There was a logical reason why the Emperor was opposed to the concept that all of mankind originally came from God and was returing to God via the cycle of birth and death. Justinian had been convinced by high ranking cardinals that it was not in the interest of the empire to allow Origen's writings to continue to be copied and distributed. A powerful group of Cardinal’s and Bishop’s explained that if every soul had once pre-existed with God, then Christ wasn’t anything special to have come from God. These Cardinals convinced the Emperor that if people realized they were the children of God they might begin to believe they no longer needed an Emperor, or to pay taxes, or to obey the Holy Church. But since they reasoned that only Christ had come from God but God made brand new souls at the time of conception and only the Holy Church could bring these souls to God. Without the protection of the Empire or the guidance of the church, all people would be doomed to be forever cut off from God in Hell. This doctrine was very acceptabloe to the Emperor. Once Justinian understood the political danger inherent in Origen’s teachings, the rest was simply an Emperor doing what was in his best interest.


http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-pope.htm


You must understand that its under premises like the one posted above the modern christianity was formed.



GIDEON MAGE
QUOTE(Venomshocker @ Mar 8 2006, 09:37 PM) [snapback]1095836[/snapback]

http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-pope.htm
You must understand that its under premises like the one posted above the modern christianity was formed.

venom, please keep reposting this until the guys all read it; seriously. Please note that this is a christian website.
Venomshocker
LOL, ya Ive posted it like 4X now at least..... the christians just seem to turn a blind eye, like its a funny anomoly in the history of christianity. The thing is its quite serious. The Pope himself was even arrested for not wanting to change the belief in reincarnation!!
P4P3R T1G3R2
I take it that you are a follower of the gnostic gospel.

Gideon have you skimmed through the website, IT'S NOT EVEN CHRISTIAN! Read the whole site because you are seriously mistaken to claim it's Christian. They believe the gnostic gospel which isn't even Christian.
Venomshocker
QUOTE
I take it that you are a follower of the gnostic gospel.

Gideon have you skimmed through the website, IT'S NOT EVEN CHRISTIAN! Read the whole site because you are seriously mistaken to claim it's Christian. They believe the gnostic gospel which isn't even Christian.


And WHO decides what is christian and what is not???? Could it not be that the gnostics were closer to AUTHENTIC christianity than the severe editing, formulation and burnings the councils commanded?? They(councils) were later on notoriously ruthless at making sure only their teachings were carried on.

I say the gnostics and their messages are closer to what Jesus taught than what is taught in churches around the world today. The churches and their beliefs and understandings of general modern christianity today are only an extension of the blatant manipulation the councils wrought.

You would be wise to research the history of the councils further. It was this search that led me to abandon modern christianity and embrace what most likely was the true teachings of christ!
stargazer123
Tags

I can give you the Jewish standpoint and break down the verses. Actually in the Hebrew text Isaiah 53 starts at 52:13 because the Torah is a continous thread. The Jewish standpoint is very different from the Christian standpoint.

I wouldn't mind discussing it with you at all. I've been on both sides of the fence so I can see how each side feels the way they do.
P4P3R T1G3R2
QUOTE(Venomshocker @ Mar 9 2006, 03:20 AM) [snapback]1095910[/snapback]



I say the gnostics and their messages are closer to what Jesus taught than what is taught in churches around the world today. The churches and their beliefs and understandings of general modern christianity today are only an extension of the blatant manipulation the councils wrought.


They were not closer to the teachings of Christ...

http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?art_id=25812
---------------
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/gnostics.html
"Some scholars have theorized that Gnosticism has its roots in pre-Christian religions, instead of being merely an offshoot of Christianity."

"A one-sentence description of Gnosticism: a religion that differentiates the evil god of this world (who is identified with the god of the Old Testament) from a higher more abstract God revealed by Jesus Christ, a religion that regards this world as the creation of a series of evil archons/powers who wish to keep the human soul trapped in an evil physical body, a religion that preaches a hidden wisdom or knowledge only to a select group as necessary for salvation or escape from this world."
-------
Gnostic Gospel in a nutshell...
http://www.gotquestions.org/Gnostic-gospels.html

"The Gnostic Christians, if they can truly be described as Christians, held a distinctly different view of the Bible, of Jesus Christ, of salvation - and virtually every other major Christian doctrine. However, they did not have any writings by the apostles to give legitimacy to their beliefs.



That is why and how the Gnostic gospels were created. The Gnostics fraudulently attached the names of famous Christians to their writings, such as the gospel of Thomas, the gospel of Philip, the gospel of Mary, etc. The discovery of the Nag Hammadi library in northern Egypt in 1945 represented a major discovery of Gnostic gospels. These Gnostic gospels are often pointed to as supposed "lost books of the Bible."



So, what are we to make of the Gnostic gospels? Should some or all of them be in the Bible? No, they should not. First, as we pointed out above, the Gnostic gospels are forgeries. The Gnostic gospels were fraudulently written in their names in order to give them a legitimacy in the early church. Thankfully, the early church fathers were nearly unanimous in recognize the Gnostic gospels as promoting false doctrines about virtually every key Christian doctrine. There are countless contradictions between the Gnostic gospels and the true Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The Gnostic gospels can be a good source to study early Christian heresies, but they should be rejected outright as not belonging in the Bible and not representing the genuine Christian faith."

--------
and...http://www.gotquestions.org/Nag-Hammadi.html
"The Nag Hammadi library is frequently pointed to as an example of "lost books of the Bible." According to the conspiracy theory, the early Christians tried to destroy these Gnostic writings because they contained secret teachings about Jesus and Christianity. The Nag Hammadi library was supposedly the faithful efforts of Gnostic monks to save the truth about Jesus Christ from the persecution of non-Gnostic Christians. The Nag Hammadi scrolls include works known as the gospel of Truth, the gospel of Philip, the apocryphon of John, the apocalypse of Adam, and the acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles. The most famous Nag Hammadi scroll is the only known complete copy of the gospel of Thomas.
-------------
http://www.gotquestions.org/lost-books-Bible.html
"There are no lost books of the Bible or books that were taken out of the Bible. There are many legends and rumors of “lost books” but there is no truth whatsoever to these stories. Every book that God intended and inspired to be in the Bible is in the Bible. There are literally hundreds of religious books that were written in the same time period as the books of the Bible. Some of these books contain true accounts of things that genuinely occurred (1 Maccabees for example). Some of them contain good spiritual teaching (the wisdom of Solomon for example). However, these books are not inspired by God. If we read any of these books, the Apocrypha as an example, we have to treat them as fallible historical books, not as the inspired, inerrant Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17).



The gospel of Thomas, for example, was a book written in the 3rd or 4th century A.D. as a forgery, claiming to have been written by the Apostle Thomas. It was not written by Thomas. The early church fathers almost universally rejected the gospel of Thomas as being heretical. It contains many false and heretical things that Jesus supposedly said and did. None of it (or at best very little of it) is true. The Epistle of Barnabas was not written by the Biblical Barnabas, but by an imposter. The same can be said of the gospel of Philip, the apocalypse of Peter, the book of Enoch, etc. The Bible is the complete Word of God. Why would God allow a book that He inspired to not be included in the Bible for 2000+ years?


The site you posted above believes in reincarnation which is no where mentioned in scripture in which the site claims taht Jesus Himself taught it which is not found anywhere in the Gospels. It is an unscriptural belief and only twisting of texts will allow you to achieve your own desires. The teachings of Christian churches are based upon the Bible and not some "secret" books.

One thing I can quote Jesus on...Matthew 10:26- Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
Venomshocker
QUOTE
They were not closer to the teachings of Christ...


You dont know that, you only know what the councils let pass.

QUOTE
"Some scholars have theorized that Gnosticism has its roots in pre-Christian religions, instead of being merely an offshoot of Christianity."


Key word: "theorized"

QUOTE

"A one-sentence description of Gnosticism: a religion that differentiates the evil god of this world (who is identified with the god of the Old Testament) from a higher more abstract God revealed by Jesus Christ, a religion that regards this world as the creation of a series of evil archons/powers who wish to keep the human soul trapped in an evil physical body, a religion that preaches a hidden wisdom or knowledge only to a select group as necessary for salvation or escape from this world."


Gnosticism isnt so much a religon, as it is a way of thinking. There is much variation among gnostics keep that in mind. I see no reson for the above statment to be valid.

QUOTE
"The Gnostic Christians, if they can truly be described as Christians, held a distinctly different view of the Bible, of Jesus Christ, of salvation - and virtually every other major Christian doctrine. However, they did not have any writings by the apostles to give legitimacy to their beliefs.


Quite true, for the first part. Some scholars say that some of the apostles were actually gnostics.

QUOTE
That is why and how the Gnostic gospels were created. The Gnostics fraudulently attached the names of famous Christians to their writings, such as the gospel of Thomas, the gospel of Philip, the gospel of Mary, etc. The discovery of the Nag Hammadi library in northern Egypt in 1945 represented a major discovery of Gnostic gospels. These Gnostic gospels are often pointed to as supposed "lost books of the Bible."


The exact same thing can be said aobut the NT books. Alot of scholars believe the names of the books at least the first 4 in the NT are misnomers.

QUOTE
So, what are we to make of the Gnostic gospels? Should some or all of them be in the Bible? No, they should not. First, as we pointed out above, the Gnostic gospels are forgeries. The Gnostic gospels were fraudulently written in their names in order to give them a legitimacy in the early church. Thankfully, the early church fathers were nearly unanimous in recognize the Gnostic gospels as promoting false doctrines about virtually every key Christian doctrine. There are countless contradictions between the Gnostic gospels and the true Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The Gnostic gospels can be a good source to study early Christian heresies, but they should be rejected outright as not belonging in the Bible and not representing the genuine Christian faith."



This statment coming from one of those thouroughly entrenched in the formulation of the council's. Again you really think you can trust all those councils? You would be wise to look into the lives of the people leading those councils. Not kind, christian like people by any means.


QUOTE
"The Nag Hammadi library is frequently pointed to as an example of "lost books of the Bible." According to the conspiracy theory, the early Christians tried to destroy these Gnostic writings because they contained secret teachings about Jesus and Christianity. The Nag Hammadi library was supposedly the faithful efforts of Gnostic monks to save the truth about Jesus Christ from the persecution of non-Gnostic Christians. The Nag Hammadi scrolls include works known as the gospel of Truth, the gospel of Philip, the apocryphon of John, the apocalypse of Adam, and the acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles. The most famous Nag Hammadi scroll is the only known complete copy of the gospel of Thomas.


Yes quite true, indeed. grin2.gif

QUOTE

"There are no lost books of the Bible or books that were taken out of the Bible. There are many legends and rumors of “lost books” but there is no truth whatsoever to these stories. Every book that God intended and inspired to be in the Bible is in the Bible. There are literally hundreds of religious books that were written in the same time period as the books of the Bible. Some of these books contain true accounts of things that genuinely occurred (1 Maccabees for example). Some of them contain good spiritual teaching (the wisdom of Solomon for example). However, these books are not inspired by God. If we read any of these books, the Apocrypha as an example, we have to treat them as fallible historical books, not as the inspired, inerrant Word of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17).


This makes me laugh. Now WHO decides what books are inspired word of God and which ones arent???? The fundamentalist leaders of the councils??? Those greedy guys, who use fear to manipulate and control people???? your treading on shaky ground here....... wacko.gif


QUOTE
The gospel of Thomas, for example, was a book written in the 3rd or 4th century A.D. as a forgery, claiming to have been written by the Apostle Thomas. It was not written by Thomas. The early church fathers almost universally rejected the gospel of Thomas as being heretical. It contains many false and heretical things that Jesus supposedly said and did. None of it (or at best very little of it) is true. The Epistle of Barnabas was not written by the Biblical Barnabas, but by an imposter. The same can be said of the gospel of Philip, the apocalypse of Peter, the book of Enoch, etc. The Bible is the complete Word of God. Why would God allow a book that He inspired to not be included in the Bible for 2000+ years?


Ah, your source is WRONG!

"There is currently much debate about when the text was composed, with scholars generally falling into two main camps: an early camp favoring a date in the 50s before the canonical gospels and a late camp favoring a time after the last of the canonical gospels in the 100s. Among critical scholars, the early camp is dominant in North America, while the late camp is more popular in Europe (especially in the U.K. and Germany)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas

Hmm, these sources your quoting are extremely fundamentalist and if you would do more PROPER research you would see they are way out to lunch. The book of Enoch for example existed long before any of the NT books, and can be dated reliably back quite far. As for why would God not allow abook he inspired to be in the bible for 2000+ years, the answer is quite simple. God dosent take away man's free-will and force upon them the bible. Just like the mormons and Jehova Witness's are free to edit their bibles, so where the early councils. And such they did, and they documented their process's well to..... Poor logic, again coming from christian fundamentalists.

QUOTE
The site you posted above believes in reincarnation which is no where mentioned in scripture in which the site claims taht Jesus Himself taught it which is not found anywhere in the Gospels. It is an unscriptural belief and only twisting of texts will allow you to achieve your own desires. The teachings of Christian churches are based upon the Bible and not some "secret" books.


Ah yes the bible does mention reincarnation.
http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnati...ible-verses.htm

So yes it is a scriptural belief. But remember alot of it was edited so that reincarnation would not be included by the councils. The "books" are only secret because the councils banned them because they were in conflict with their politcal agendas! They wanted to control people, the roman empire was falling apart, and waht better way to control people than through their beliefs. You must understand the mindset of these powerful rulers, and their councils that decided what was in the bible and what wasnt.

Majority of christians know VERY little about the formation of the bible and its underlying theologies. Only by studying history and especially the councils and their prominent members/leaders can you grasp a good understanding of waht was going on. And believe me its UGLY. There is an enormous amount of controversy surrounding these fields and for good reason. People are beginning to question the very foundation of christianity and with good reason. It would be ignorant not too!!

QUOTE
One thing I can quote Jesus on...Matthew 10:26- Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.


In refrence and CONTEXT to the earlier passage of

"17 - Be on your guard against men; they will hand you over to the local councils and flog you in their synagogues."

Please dont take the bible out of context to give you comfort against something that may seem threatning at first. Its good your lookign into this, for it is no until you challenge your own beliefs that you can truly grow spiritually. May you seek 'gnosis' (knowledge) and let it free you! thumbsup.gif (aka. gnostics - seekers of knowledge - for the truth shall set you free)
zandore
QUOTE(P4P3R T1G3R2 @ Mar 8 2006, 09:28 PM) [snapback]1095820[/snapback]

Tags...born in...2 December 1980
So 25 years old = 16? WOW! *CLAP, CLAP, CLAP*
Zandore, 1980-2006 does not equal 16!
I can show no proof but when I looked my screen said 1990.


QUOTE(P4P3R T1G3R2 @ Mar 8 2006, 09:28 PM) [snapback]1095820[/snapback]
Funny how you try to correct a minor spelling error (which everyone does a typo) but you can't even do second grade math. Sad, sad, sad... no.gif

Look down (If you are capable) and see where the letters P R A T are at...In that order you are saying a typo? no.gif

"part or patr" perhaps!


EDIT: BTW....If you look at my profile today you will see that It says I was bore in 1959 (true) and tomorrow you will se it will say I was born in 1907.
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(zandore @ Mar 9 2006, 12:45 PM) [snapback]1096319[/snapback]

I can show no proof but when I looked my screen said 1990.
Look down (If you are capable) and see where the letters P R A T are at...In that order you are saying a typo? no.gif

"part or patr" perhaps!
EDIT: BTW....If you look at my profile today you will see that It says I was bore in 1959 (true) and tomorrow you will se it will say I was born in 1907.

Go on Zannie prove it LOL
mako
You know, P43PRT1G3R2 is living proof of the old adage - "Anything is possible, if you don't know what you are talking about"! grin2.gif yes.gif
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(mako @ Mar 9 2006, 11:28 PM) [snapback]1097305[/snapback]

You know, P43PRT1G3R2 is living proof of the old adage - "Anything is possible, if you don't know what you are talking about"! grin2.gif yes.gif

LOL WELL SAID w00t.gif
zandore
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Mar 9 2006, 06:11 PM) [snapback]1097252[/snapback]
QUOTE(zandore @ Mar 9 2006, 07:45 AM) [snapback]1096319[/snapback]

I can show no proof but when I looked my screen said 1990.
Look down (If you are capable) and see where the letters P R A T are at...In that order you are saying a typo? no.gif

"part or patr" perhaps!
EDIT: BTW....If you look at my profile today you will see that It says I was bore in 1959 (true) and tomorrow you will se it will say I was born in 1907.
Go on Zannie prove it LOL

GEE WIZZ next September I am going to be 99 years old....funny I don't feel much older than I did when I was 46.

Profile


QUOTE(P4P3R T1G3R2 @ Mar 8 2006 @ 09:28 PM)
Funny how you try to correct a minor spelling error (which everyone does a typo) but you can't even do second grade math. Sad, sad, sad... no.gif
Is he pulling one over on you?


Mako you were right...."Anything is possible, if you don't know what you are talking about"

cool.gif
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