The guys that wrote the NT created Jesus' story to fulfill the prophesies.

Otherwise you wind up with everyone thinking you are a dolt.

If you haven't a clue about a particular subject, please do us all a favor...actually do yourself a favor...and don't comment on it. Otherwise you wind up with everyone thinking you are a dolt.

Yeshayahu - Chapter 53

1. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?

Who would have believed our report So will the nations say to one another, Were we to hear from others what we see, it would be unbelievable.
the arm of the Lord like this, with greatness and glory, to whom was it revealed until now?2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?

And he came up like a sapling before it This people, before this greatness came to it, was a very humble people, and it came up by itself like a sapling of the saplings of the trees.
and like a root he came up from dry land.
neither form had he in the beginning, nor comeliness.
and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him? And when we saw him from the beginning without an appearance, how could we desire him?
Now shall we desire him? This is a question.
3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.

Despised and rejected by men was he. So is the custom of this prophet: he mentions all Israel as one man, e.g., (44:2), “Fear not, My servant Jacob” ; (44:1) “And now, hearken, Jacob, My servant.” Here too (52:13), “Behold My servant shall prosper,” he said concerning the house of Jacob. יַשְׂכִּיל is an expression of prosperity. Comp. (I Sam. 18:14) “And David was successful (מַשְׂכִּיל) in all his ways.”
and as one who hides his face from us Because of their intense shame and humility, they were as one who hides his face from us, with their faces bound up in concealment, in order that we not see them, like a plagued man who hides his face and is afraid to look.
4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

Indeed, he bore our illnesses Heb. אָכֵן, an expression of ‘but’ in all places. But now we see that this came to him not because of his low state, but that he was chastised with pains so that all the nations be atoned for with Israel’s suffering. The illness that should rightfully have come upon us, he bore.
yet we accounted him We thought that he was hated by the Omnipresent, but he was not so, but he was pained because of our transgressions and crushed because of our iniquities.
5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.

the chastisement of our welfare was upon him The chastisement due to the welfare that we enjoyed, came upon him, for he was chastised so that there be peace for the entire world.
6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.

We all went astray like sheep Now it is revealed that all the heathens (nations [mss.]) had erred.
accepted his prayers He accepted his prayers and was appeased concerning the iniquity of all of us, that He did not destroy His world.
accepted… prayers Heb. הִפְגִּיעַ, espriad in O.F., an expression of supplication.
7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted Behold he was oppressed by taskmasters and people who exert pressure.
and he was afflicted with verbal taunts, sorparlec in O.F.
yet he would not open his mouth He would suffer and remain silent like the lamb that is brought to the slaughter, and like the ewe that is mute before her shearers.
and he would not open his mouth This refers to the lamb brought to the slaughter.
8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.

From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken The prophet reports and says that the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) will say this at the end of days, when they see that he was taken from the imprisonment that he was imprisoned in their hands and from the judgment of torments that he suffered until now.
and his generation The years that passed over him.
who shall tell? The tribulations that befell him, for from the beginning, he was cut off and exiled from the land of the living that is the land of Israel for because of the transgression of my people, this plague came to the righteous among them.
9. And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

And he gave his grave to the wicked He subjected himself to be buried according to anything the wicked of the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) would decree upon him, for they would penalize him with death and the burial of donkeys in the intestines of the dogs.
to the wicked According to the will of the wicked, he was willing to be buried, and he would not deny the living God.
and to the wealthy with his kinds of death and to the will of the ruler he subjected himself to all kinds of death that he decreed upon him, because he did not wish to agree to (denial) [of the Torah] to commit evil and to rob like all the heathens (nations [mss., K’li Paz]) among whom he lived,and there was no deceit in his mouth to accept idolatry (to accept a pagan deity as God [Parshandatha]).
10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.

And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill The Holy One, blessed be He, wished to crush him and to cause him to repent; therefore, he made him ill.
If his soul makes itself restitution, etc. Said the Holy One, blessed be He, “I will see, if his soul will be given and delivered with My holiness to return it to Me as restitution for all that he betrayed Me, I will pay him his recompense, and he will see children, etc.” This word אָשָׁם is an expression of ransom that one gives to the one against when he sinned, amende in O.F., to free from faults, similar to the matter mentioned in the episode of the Philistines (I Sam. 6:3), “Do not send it away empty, but you shall send back with it a guilt offering (אָשָׁם).”
11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.

From the toil of his soul he would eat and be satisfied, and he would not rob and plunder.
with his knowledge… would vindicate the just My servant would judge justly all those who came to litigate before him.
and their iniquities he would bear He would bear, in the manner of all the righteous, as it is said (Num. 18:1): “You and your sons shall bear the iniquity of the sanctuary.”
12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

Therefore Because he did this, I will allot him an inheritance and a lot in public with the Patriarchs.
he poured out his soul to death Heb. הֶעֱרָה. An expression like (Gen. 24: 20), “And she emptied (וַתְּעַר) her pitcher.”
and with transgressors he was counted He suffered torments as if he had sinned and transgressed, and this is because of others; he bore the sin of the many.
and interceded for the transgressors through his sufferings, for good came to the world through him.

Yeah i actually heard the King James Bible translation is probably the most poorly translated Bible out there. They talk about missing scriptures, changed translations (which change the entire meaning of some quotes/happenings) and more. Gideon what is the most accurate Bible out there in your opinion that a Christian can get their hands on? One that is closest in translation to the original Jewish writings?

available free on-line:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=63255

if you can get hold of a JPS (jewish publication society) edition of the Tanach (not the 1929 version-it's a rewrite of the kjv old testament). The modern edition is very well written, has poetry where the hebrew has poetry, etc.

You are welcome. There is a jps on-line version, but it is the old one, and not very different from kjv. The only copy I have is a rather large paperback, and has a yellow cover.

For those who claim that Isaiah 53 was not considered to be written about the Messiah, please read this.
http://www.amfi.org/ABOUTWHOM.htm

There are many prophesies just as stunning as this one which can only point to Jesus. As they are all written hundreds of years before his birth they are in my opinion compeling evidence to believe that he is in fact the Messiah, Son of God.

So, you didn't even read my post? Do you even know any Jews? The passages are clearly about the Jewish people, not the messiah. If you read Isaiah, he often speaks about the suffering servant, who he states repeatedly is "Israel, my beloved" and "Jacob, who I have chosen". There is no "claim" involved. I already posted a website where you can read an accurate translation, with commentary. Why don't you try reading it? No Jew has ever interpreted this as referring to Yeshu or the real Messiah. Have you read Isaiah? The whole book? In a Jewish translation? The nt, when it was written by the council of constantinople, for Emperor Theodosius, referenced a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, not the Hebrew original. They wrote whatever they wanted to impress the pagan audience it was intended for, who, for the most part, was ignorant of the Jewish scriptures, an easy target.

I think using scripture to try to prove scripture is pretty lame and I think that sharing with people the way Jesus told us to do it is much better myself.

The nt, when it was written by the council of constantinople, for Emperor Theodosius, referenced a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, not the Hebrew original. They wrote whatever they wanted to impress the pagan audience it was intended for, who, for the most part, was ignorant of the Jewish scriptures, an easy target.

1500 years of religious wars, executions, the inquisition, forced conversions, exiling "non-believers", the crusades, missionaries force-feeding xian trash to primitive peoples, while wiping their cultures, or simply exterminating them? Are you crazy? 1500 years or bloodshed and butchery in the name of your so-called savior? yes you are right about the fruit that Yeshu has born. Science has triumphed in modern times in spite of your petty "religion", not because of it. Einstein, Newton, Freud, Werner von Braun, all Jews. How about Jefferson, Paine, and Franklin? ALL "Freethinkers" or "Deists". If xians had founded the United States, we would never have had the industrial revolution, either. Yes, let us evaluate what your people have done. Don't forget forcing Galileo to recant.

1500 years of religious wars, executions, the inquisition, forced conversions, exiling "non-believers", the crusades, missionaries force-feeding xian trash to primitive peoples, while wiping their cultures, or simply exterminating them? Are you crazy? 1500 years or bloodshed and butchery in the name of your so-called savior? yes you are right about the fruit that Yeshu has born. Science has triumphed in modern times in spite of your petty "religion", not because of it. Einstein, Newton, Freud, Werner von Braun, all Jews. How about Jefferson, Paine, and Franklin? ALL "Freethinkers" or "Deists". If xians had founded the United States, we would never have had the industrial revolution, either. Yes, let us evaluate what your people have done. Don't forget forcing Galileo to recant.

Are you crazy? 1500 years or bloodshed and butchery in the name of your so-called savior?

It is clearly obvious that it is you who does not read things. Gideon read the post and please please please tell me what your honest opinion is.
This site is all about Jews who believed isaiah 53 to be Messianic. Enjoy Gideon.

Apologistic b.s. Do the research. The passages in question have not been part of the Haftorah since long before the advent of your false messiah. If you had read the site I led you to, you would have known what Rashi said, and he is pretty authoritative. Since you didn't read it, please continue to worship a dead Jew, instead of HaShem. There are no Jews who believe Yeshu is the messiah. There are a few former Jews who have become Christians, and they may return to God if they want to, and become Jews again.

“crap that is the nt forgery”
“missionaries force-feeding xian trash”
“your petty "religion",
“your false messiah”
“worship a dead Jew”

I think using scripture to try to prove scripture is pretty lame and I think that sharing with people the way Jesus told us to do it is much better myself.

Know by what is produced (fruits).

The Christian nations were the first to end slavery.
The Christian nations were the first to build hospitols for the poor
(the first hospitols of any kind actually)
The Christian nations were the first democracies.
The Christian nations gave women the right to vote first.
The Christian nations were the first to outlaw capitol punishement.
The Christian nations were the first to give all citizens access to public education.

There has been barbarism and war in every nation, race, and faith thorugh history, but Christianity has gone a long way in helping the race of man grow, mature, and evolve in a healthy and positive way.

And that is a statistical fact (fruit).

Gideon these are quotes from you in just one thread. You seriously need some anger management courses. It’s ok to not agree with Christians it’s not ok to be offensive in your replies. If you want respect you have to serve a little of it yourself!

Now now everyone, I repeat, lets stop this nonsense. Stick to the thread and nothing else, if you have nothing to say regarding the original post please say nothing.

Gideon Im waiting for youre thoughts on the link you didnt read the last time, please.

Here it is again for handy ness;
http://www.amfi.org/ABOUTWHOM.htm

If you fail to comment can we infer that you accept the fact that youre opinion (namely that no jewish leader at any time accepted Isaiah 53 as Messianic?) was indeed erroneous,

It appears that many of these firsts were born in the US. We are not a christian nation and never have been. We are a nation with a large christian population but the US has never been a christian nation thanks to our deist forefathers. They had the foresight to know where it would lead us.

I think using scripture to try to prove scripture is pretty lame and I think that sharing with people the way Jesus told us to do it is much better myself.

Know by what is produced (fruits).

The Christian nations were the first to end slavery.
The Christian nations were the first to build hospitols for the poor
(the first hospitols of any kind actually)
The Christian nations were the first democracies.
The Christian nations gave women the right to vote first.
The Christian nations were the first to outlaw capitol punishement.
The Christian nations were the first to give all citizens access to public education.

There has been barbarism and war in every nation, race, and faith thorugh history, but Christianity has gone a long way in helping the race of man grow, mature, and evolve in a healthy and positive way.

And that is a statistical fact (fruit).

Reply Isaiah 53 verse by verse
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52:13. Behold My servant shall prosper; he shall be exalted and lifted up, and he shall be very high.

The Hebrew word for servant (eved) is always used by the Hebrew Bible to refer to a separate and inferior entity subject to the will of a superior. This is inconsistent with the missionary belief that the Father and Son are c0-equal, co-eternal and of the same substance.

14. As many wondered about you, "How marred his appearance is from that of a man, and his features from that of people!"

Never have “many” wondered about the subhuman appearance of Jesus. There is no record of such an appearance or even of a belief in such an appearance. In fact, portraits and movies portray him as handsome. If missionaries say this refers to his crucifixion, we say verse 14 is a general statement of the Servant’s appearance, not a description of a single incident.

15. So shall he cast down many nations; kings shall shut their mouth, for, what had not been told them they saw, and [at] what they had not heard they gazed.

When did this happen? It did not 2000 years ago, as no source indicates that kings “shut their mouths” because of Jesus. If missionaries say it will happen later, this cannot be: the Jesus is story is very well-known and cannot be in the category of “what had not been told them.” If missionaries say it refers to those who accepted Jesus over the course of time, this is impossible: never has a large group of people maintained simultaneously (a) we are amazed at Jesus’ exaltation ( we previously considered him “smitten of G-d” © we were never told this story. Nor can we say converts to Christianity “saw” Jesus.

53:3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.

Jesus has no history of suffering from illness. This verse does not mean ‘accustomed to treating the illnesses of others’, as missionaries contend, since verse 3 describes the Servant’s own lowliness, not the lowliness of those he treats. (see v.10 “He made him ill”)

4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.

Again “he bore our illnesses” does not mean the Servant treated others’ illness, as that is no reason to consider him “plagued, smitten, oppressed.” The true meaning is the Servant suffered illness that by right should have belonged to others.

9. And he gave his grave with the wicked, and with the wealthy in his deaths, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

The New Testament says the opposite: his death was with the wicked (two thieves), and his grave with the wealthy.
Missionaries try to argue that Jesus was assigned by authorities to be buried with the wicked, but something else took place. This is an incorrect reading of Isaiah. It neither says “they gave his grave with the wicked” nor use a passive verb “was given.” The singular active verb vayiten means he gave. Neither Jesus nor any individual set Jesus’ grave with the wicked.

10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul places itself for a guilt-offering, he shall see seed, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.

The Hebrew word for seed (zera) means physical offspring, never disciples. Jesus had none.
Genesis 15:3 illustrates the difference between seed and disciples: “And Abram said, ‘see, to me you have given no seed (zera) and see, the son (ben) of my house is Eliezer.” Abram tells G-d that while he has a “son” i.e. disciple, he does not have “seed” (physical offspring).

“He shall prolong his days” cannot apply to Jesus. Yaarich yamim does not mean “have a long life” but “he shall lengthen his days.” Yaarich is a verb, not an adjective. It refers to a time span originally shorter but later expanded. Jesus had a short earthly life; his lifetime was not extended. Yaarich cannot here refer to eternal spiritual life; it is absurd to speak of increasing a divine being’s life. Nor can this be speaking of resurrection; the Biblical expression is used to refer to prolonging of an existing life, not revival of a life that has ended.

“If his soul places itself for a guilt-offering” makes the Servant’s reward conditional based on his performance. The ‘long life’ of a divine being cannot be subject to variables. It is nonsensical to reward a divine being (does G-d reward Himself?), and seriously problematic to suggest his reward hinges on whether he will do the right thing. Also, the word “if” suggests that it may not have happened. Would missionaries agree that the Son might have not followed G-d’s will?

12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall divided the spoil, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

Jesus never “divided the spoil.” The Hebrew word shalal means booty captured in warfare (see Genesis 49:27 and Exodus 15:9). This is inapplicable to Jesus. The idea of rewarding G-d, and doing so with booty, is absurd.

“Interceded for the transgressors” shows the Servant is not G-d. An intercessor stands between those he represents and the one receiving the request. If Jesus is part of the godhead, there is no one with which to intercede.

Note: I wish to ackowledge the influence of Moshe Shulman's writings on the topic

I think that that last link has a lot of assumptions in it. To name a few--I really don't want to go into them all right now, I'm tired--Jesus says that He "is not worthy to tie the sandals" of God (in the NT, of course.) So then he would have to be subordinate in some sense...which disagrees with the first bit. And when I hear "gave his grave with the wicked", I have trouble interpreting that any other way than "allowing himself to die like a sinner." I don't mean religiously interpret, I mean interpret based on metaphor and sentence structure. Of course, the original language isn't English so I can't exactly make a stand on that one.

I think that that last link has a lot of assumptions in it. To name a few--I really don't want to go into them all right now, I'm tired--Jesus says that He "is not worthy to tie the sandals" of God (in the NT, of course.) So then he would have to be subordinate in some sense...which disagrees with the first bit. And when I hear "gave his grave with the wicked", I have trouble interpreting that any other way than "allowing himself to die like a sinner." I don't mean religiously interpret, I mean interpret based on metaphor and sentence structure. Of course, the original language isn't English so I can't exactly make a stand on that one.

The Christian nations were the first to end slavery

The Christian nations were the first to build hospitols for the poor
(the first hospitols of any kind actually)

The Christian nations were the first democracies.

The Christian nations gave women the right to vote first.

The Christian nations were the first to outlaw capitol punishement.

The Christian nations were the first to give all citizens access to public education.

There has been barbarism and war in every nation, race, and faith thorugh history, but Christianity has gone a long way in helping the race of man grow, mature, and evolve in a healthy and positive way.

Actually, China abolished slavery in 400 BCE under the Han emperors.
As I pointed out to you in an earlier thread, the first hospitals were founded in Sri Lanka in the 5th century BCE by King Pandukabhaya, by 230 BCE hospitals existed in India, established by King Ashoka. The first teaching hospital, the Academy of Gundishapur, was founded in the 2nd century BCE in Persia and the Romans created valetudinaria, hospitals for slaves and gladiators in 100 BCE.
Last time I checked, the first democracy, Athens, worshipped the ancient Greek Gods and Goddesses.
Once again, the people of ancient Athens (when the women first achieved the vote) worshipped the ancient Gods and Goddesses of Greece!


Actually King Janasandha, of Banaras abolished capital punishment in his kingdom in the 7th century BCE. He was a Buddhist! Most Buddhist nations do not and never have had capital punishment, violence is a against their religion.
Wrong again, the Romans provided public education to their citizens from 3rd century BCE until the collapse of the empire, caused primarily by the weakening of the Army by the Church.
And how would you say it has helped, by enslaving other cultures, by stealing the lands of more primitive peoples, by burning those that disagreed with their dogma? I have seen very little that Christianity has provided to the race, that wasn’t provided by earlier cultures with no strings attached, unlike Christianity.

Listen folks this thread was set up to encourage discussion about Isaiah 53, not to slag off each other. We ie christians and jews have differing opinions today about this chapter, but maybe not so in times past. I was wondering how in the face of such stricking correlation can anyone deny that these verses are in fact concerning Jesus the Messiah?

Can anyone who disagrees please tell me a feww prophesies that jesus did not actually fulfill? Because if there are any messianic prohesies left that he has not fulfilled then he is obviously not Messiah! Looking forward to further discussion.
PLEASE please keep this thread civil. Saruman please let it run, I am really interested in peoples opinions if theyare keep respectful.

First of all, the REAL messiah must be of patrilineal descent from David. If his dad was God, not Joseph, Yeshu can't be King. Now the virgin thing is a misquote of Isaiah, because the Council of Constantinople apparently felt it would be better if he was a virgin birth, like Mithhras, Heracles, Osiris, Dionosys, etc. So, if you admit that Joseph was his father, it has a chance.However, he was a descendent of Nathan, not Solomon, so that doesn't wash anyway. Yeshu didn't bring about peace on earth, either.And it doesn't count to say "he is coming back to fulfil the rest of the prophecies, either.

So, if you admit that Joseph was his father, it has a chance.However, he was a descendent of Nathan, not Solomon, so that doesn't wash anyway.