Let me make somethings clear to you Desk..

I never believed in ghost till I saw one...now is that something I can or want to brag about? HELL NO...I hate the very thoughts of it

Unless you have seen one only then you will understand

I didn't want to see one..and I have two eyes in my head I know what I saw..it was no dream I can tell you....how many of us can remember what we dreamt the night before? so how in the hell could I remember such a dream dating back over 20 odd years ago???

I am not blind nor am I stupid....I cant proove I saw this ghost but back then there was no digi cams handy nor did o sleep with a camera by my bedside just incase

I dont think its anything to brag about seeing ghosts...its fecking freaky if ya ask me...nor do I wish to see another one....I didnt go to bed that night feeling guilty either...I wasnt aware taking stones from a grave was wrong...to add to that..I didnt have any reason to feel bad at the time...so I cant say anything was playing on my mind

I dont care if you don't believe me Desk...I wont loose sleep over it either...why the heck would I make something like that up??? whats the point??? its NOT IMPRESSIVE is it?

To add Zero and I don't get along on here...everyone knows that...but this is the 1st time I think I have ever believed something he has posted

time and time people swear blind they saw things in perfect clarity, experiments and studies have shown us teh human memory is heavily jaded by emotional influences, i am reminded of the time some engineeres built a hot air balloon looking like a giant silver disc (ufo) and flew it over a pub in england.

all the accounts of actual eye witnesses where comical all contradicting the other and some claiming multiple ships, all apparently say it was as clear as day.

all one has to do is research these "solid claims" of paranormal activity such as ghost to see just how fragile people are and how easily they can be misled. it is quite sad when one realises this i am by no means immune to the failings of teh human animal teh only difference is that the tools i have developed within my life (mainly logic and reasoning) alow me to crtitically analyse these events to a greater degree as they happen and so never get concerned.

i am not scared of teh dark and will never be cautious to enter any evil hotspot such is my strength of conviction.

i would even do a ouija bored and call on the devil himself in an abandoned mental hopital the only bad thing that would occur is that it would be a waste of my time..

Science doesn't say they don't exist though. Yes, they have alternative theories, not to mention the obvious fakes, but it's far, far, FAR from being explained.


Exactly. As I said above, science has only given alternative theories. None of which are yet facts. There's still a lot to investigate.


There is a difference between a 'slide of the hand' and seeing an apparition out of nowhere, especially if you're alone in your own house and there is no reason to believe that someone is playing mind-games with you.


I consider myself a logical thinker, yet there has been twice in my life when I have experienced something I believe to be paranormal. Only one of those times I actually saw something - and I KNOW I saw it. Nobody can tell me different. I have two witnesses and I also know what/who it was.


No offense but is that your way of saying that there is no thoroughly detailed explanation? Only theories, guesses and assumptions?

There is a difference between a "proven fraud" and a mistake. Those are the types that are recognised and proven. However, there are sightings that are YET TO BE proven.


Experience is the best form of education and understanding though. Until you see/experience something for yourself, you're mind is full of questions. That is how many skeptics have based their beliefs (including myself when it comes to the existence of God(?)). The same thing applies to NDE's. Until you experience it, you question it, or just blow the idea out of the window completely. Scientists will always have a different answer that seems logical but it's only the individual who KNOWS for sure what they have seen (until proven otherwise which it HAS NOT).


Why does it always have to come down to that? Like I said, I KNOW what I saw and there was no reason to talk myself into seeing it. The idea scares the sh*t out of me!


DL, you're starting to come across as very pig-headed now. It's okay to disagree and share an opinion, but to call someone "delusional" because you don't believe them is an insult. If Zero says that he saw something, there is every reason to believe he did. Why would he lie? Okay, I only say that because I have too, but you can't tell someone they're wrong for believing in what they do, the same as nobody should say you're wrong for not believing.

Just give an opinion. Don't resort to insults because you disagree.

Yes. I remember that programme on TV but that is hardly an example of people believing in something that they WANTED to see. The evidence was there above them. The difference is, it was a HOAX. That's the point of them building it - to trick people. You probably would have wondered for a second or two whether it was real or not if you had been there.

i must say i find it truley shocking that you cannot understand teh concept of mases of mutally supported data by many individuals as being inferior to you rpersonal experience.
using only your personal experience you will live such a limited life, it is only working on teh progress of others that we are able to achieve anything, or understand anything of merit.


dont forget that just using "Personal experience" will limit yoru view so much, and in my opinion is totally unacceptable.

imagine "johnny" living his sheltered little life and relying only on personal experience, one day he gets mugged by a black person, (johnny has never seen a black person before), a few weeks later he gets mugged by a black person again, little johnny concludes all black peopel are muggers. you really think that line of reasoning seems credible? seems worthy of promoting.

only "challenged" people limit their knowledge/undertsanding by only trusting what they experience, they are intentionally shooting themselves in teh foot before the race has even started.

but then if you only trust personal experience i understand how you will have no concept of what i am trying to highlight

but it demonstrates peopel as non perfect observers as has been so claimed.

Desk what is wrong with you? you are sounding like PA...studies have shown this and that...I don't care what shows or proves anything....my eyes where not decieving me at all either

There is a BIG difference in someone who believes in God and someone who believes in ghosts...and that is...........people want to believe in God and want to and are proud of it.....a lot of people believes in ghosts and if like me DON'T want to...I never wanted to and I dont want to again...nor am i proud of myself for seeing one..its something I wish to forget

Desk..just becuse you are a skeptic doesnt me you know the answer to all

I am only part skeptic...I do believe in God, ghosts & aliens...I havent seen an alien...but think about it...why would there be life created on a tinly simple lil planet we call earth when its a big universe out there?
I don't believe in the bible...its a myth to me...I don't believe in witches, I dont believe in the devil and a number of other things I tend to be skeptic about

Skeptics don't believe in what they cannot see...thats stating the bleedin obvious lol thing is I DID see that woman...but dont wish to see anymore screw that

lol seeing with your eyes and actually seeing are quite different i assure you.

teh mistake you make is you assume you are a perfect recorder and observer. which you are not i assure you.

Science aims to remove (reduce) the human error in its experiments in a systematic and ruthless way. single observers going tO bed set up no such methodology.

Mr. i wish you actually knew who i was has created his own faith. It's science knows all. If you do manage to affect his beliefs (which is very unlikely in a forum), or shake his faith, you are taking a great risk. Cracking an ego that size can cause a breakdown. I've seen it happen.

I am a big fan of science I can asure you Desk...I have found myself in and out of talks over evolution ect but again I know what I saw

I would see past it if my mind was feeling guilty over what I did...but like I said...I wasn't feeling guilty becasue I was unaware of what I did was wrong, therefore that had diddly to do with it...back then I had a habbit of waking up in the middle of the night to the soud of the tv on down the stairs...I woke up almost every night then went back to sleep again...I am a light sleeper, always have been....but I have dreamt a few times and I knew I was dreaming...of ghosts years after it....they seemed so real but somehow I knew they where just dreams

I am also aware that the mind can indeed play tricks on you...like if you stare at something long enough you will imagine it move...or if you stare at yourself in a mirror you will see your reflection disappear.

I was a lil girl that made fun of those that said they saw ghosts...in the same way I poked fun at those that believed in the tooth fairy and Santa (I found out there was no santa at the young age of 5yrs old even though he did at one point exist) I even poked fun qite recently of a couple of UMers that believe there really are vampires lol ......but when I saw that lady I freaked out....all this crap about the room feeling cold all of a sudden is crap...but thats my opinion

Look lets leave it at I know what I saw and you don't believe me...ok?

Thing is T...I didn't wish to see any ghosts...I am whats called a yellow belly

I do understand the concept, but I also believe in what I see (KNOWING what I've seen) - hence my not believing in God(?). I find the idea of ghosts to be totally believable. I also know that scientific findings can be wrong at times. I don't ONLY use my personal experience although I do believe my experience to be valid. I have an open mind about it, but until I'm proven wrong, I will stick with what I have - my own eyes!

I'm far from being "challenged", DL, as I don't "limit" my understandings to personal experience. I'm open about it. Although I do believe there to be more outside of this universe. Science has proven that, so why not this? I may be wrong, but for now, I'm certain about what I saw.

Like I said; I don't only trust my personal experiences. So yes, I do understand what you're saying. Don't be so damn harsh.

Yes I agree, but it was only a hoax. It's different.

I wasn't aiming that at you, BM. I was saying to DL that there's a difference between a hoax (somebody setting you up), and seeing something that didn't involve another person. Only your own eyes.

Ohh I know you wernt aiming it at me LOL but I just wanted to make that point for the sake of it LOL

Okies!

It's really not different though. The point is the mind can easily hoax itself, using a less technical term. Human memory is pretty good, but memories get embellished over time, worse though is the point of perception, the moment of "seeing". Just look up experiments in visual cognition, just as well look up eyewitness account accuracy in relation to crimes, the human being is not a reliable witness, especially in the face of the unfamiliar, and easily misconstrues.

http://www.psy.mq.edu.au/staff/kip/PL7.htm
http://psy.ucsd.edu/~hflowe/eyepsych.htm

Loftus is a giant in the field of memory and eyewitness accounts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_in_the_mall_technique
http://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Arti...PDF03%20(2).pdf

What it comes down to is, it's not that I don't believe you all saw something, because I do. I just think it wasn't what you think it was.

DL I think you have a valid perspective one I'd consider, but not when you are insulting others constantly for not seeing as you do, you don't gain in respect , you gain in those that see you as holier than thou scientists can be dogmatic too, reagrdless of whether we agree to call seeing somethng as ghosts or demons or whatever Zero, Bec's ma and Tornado feel they saw something and they are very brave to want to explore that on the forum, they are sharing their experinces your input could be helpful, but you name call too much, we want you to fit in, regardless we still have to be respectful to each other whether we agree or not , we can disagree and not name call...Bec and T girl are friends of mine and in all fairness I must ask you to be alot nicer okay...thanks sheri

You ever seen a ghost? If not then you are limited to how much you can understand on the subject. It really is like explaining a sunset to a blind person.


And thank you BM for actualy understanding where I'm coming from.

That is an apt analogy. I will add precognition and telepathy to the list of phenomena that can only be appreciated through personal experience.

The skeptic's explanations show a complete lack of understanding in what the experiences are. Further, an unwillingness to listen.

There is however a lot of evidence in support of those phenomena. Still, people believe what they choose to without regard for evidence. If the evidence doesn't fit their beliefs they simply poo poo it. I suppose that's the way it needs to be. Wouldn't want everybody believing the exact same thing would we.

I think the title of this thread is irresistable for some of us. "Pathological Skeptisim", is that a pollitcally correct term, lol.

"The skeptic's explanations show a complete lack of understanding in what the experiences are. Further, an unwillingness to listen."

Is that really what it is?

Or: Is it really just a desire to understand things objectively?

If "you" the experiencer does not know yourself what you are experiencing objectively you are providing nothing more than "campfire stories" so you should not expect them to be treated with any more credibility than "campfire stories".

That's all fine and good. The problem comes from people interested in convincing us we are deluded.

We are not posting for the benefit of the skeptics. We share our "campfire stories" among ourselves to compare notes.

There's no such thing as an objective human being.

There are methodologies to provide for the elimination of as much subjectivity is as possible for the given area of research.

Now, exactly, big P, independent experience is not objective and thus should never be presented as such.

No, she knows that she observed what she saw very well. She KNOWS this, but you can only assume she didn't. It was as clear as my computer screen is right in front of my face.

that, must truly be, what has come to be known as, the zero effect!

You damn right it is. Maybe you'll learn from me.

zero,

would that be the following:

witness: "i know what i know. I know what i saw. you can't tell me i did not see what i saw"

trained observer of witness: "if he knew half as much as he thinks he knows he would knew twice as much as he thinks he does know"

Look, all I'm saying is that I know that I saw a person who was suppose to be dead. What else do you want me to tell you? Lie to myself and agree with desk light that I didn't actualy see this?

It can only be 2 things. Either I didn't actualy see this, or I did. How in the hell would you know better than I would?

i don't know what you saw.

the point is, neither do you.

you know what you think you know, what you think you saw.

but as with any observation, it is suspect.

lets use a simpler example. instead of the "ghost", lets say it was a dog you claim to have seen. without any supporting evidence there is nothing to suggest you make an accurate observation. It could have been any other type of animal that is of a general "dog" appearance given the conditions under which the observation was made.

mayb u saw into the 4 th dimension... or mayby the 5th, or the 6th
or mayby u saw ur own subcncious projection in the 4th dimension
or mayby you saw someone elses 4th dimensional projection be it subconcious or not

or mayby you saw something inside your mind,

Know that conciousness creates reality.....its just figuring out on what level of reality your conciousness (or someone else conciousness created something) that is the tricky part to figure out.

Dude, like I said. It's like the damn computer screen in front of my face! How can I mistake something like that?!


You tell me what can resemble an almost solid person who is someone I knew, who was also suppose to be dead!


There is NOTHING, and was NOTHING in my house, or around my house, that could have resembled what I saw!


This HAS to be a last resort for skeptics. I mean come on!


I'm trying to be open minded, so I'm waiting for explainations, but you must understand I can not agree with you that I really didn't see a ghost! That would be lying to myself. It was as clear as day.

Or maybe you saw something in your own mind, thoughts are powerful and creative, they actually create your reality, no one is trying to discount you Zero just helping you understand, your stuck in being validated which is interesting why are you trying so hard to convince or are you trying to convince ask yourself that too....What happened anyways, what did you see????

It's just annoying when you know what you saw, as clear as day, but yet there are still a handful who'll never believe you and continue to tell you that you didn't see what you did.



The thought creating reality thing sounds interesting, but I had no thoughts of that person. I was playing video games.

What happened???

To put it simple.


I was sitting down playing video games with my door open. Everyone was asleep [this was like 2AM], I look towards my door and see the ghost of an old friend walk right across my doorway slowly, slow enough for me to get a good look, I was a bit freaked out, but got up to take a look down the hall, but nothing was there, the hall door was even closed[the other end wich leads to the kitchen. After that I just closed my door and tried to forget about it.


I said it a few times on here. "I've had experiences I don't like talking about on UM."


This topic is a reason why. No one takes you seriously.

Only because I have been there and seen it and ...YIKES don't wish to again sod that

What is it with you people?? when someone tries to share a story that they have seen something...all of a sudden it MUST be their minds playing tricks with them?? pleeaasee catch a grip...unless anyone of you that say this crap...tell me what is it that make you all such EXPERTS??

Zero, did you read any of the links I posted on perception, memory and cognition?

2AM? I'm sure you were pretty tired. You can find yourself in a half-waking state, you know, and not realise it. Not to mention it went slow you said. If you read the articles you'll note how witness always think extremely quick events take a long time and always miscalculate long events as being much shorter, especially when agitated. It could have a blur out of the corner of your eye from staring at a TV too long that your brain perceived as something that it wasn't as the brain really doesn't accept seeing something it can't categorize. It will define something indefinable even if it's wrong. Subjectivity, my friend.

But, anyway, look over those links. You keep asking for explanations and there's some there, amongst many that don't require anything to be paranormal.

Show me evidence published in a peer-review journal. New-age books of anecdotes don't count as evidence. As I posted earlier current experiments can never be scientific because they require the subjectivity of the observer to "score" the person. It doesn't work and after years they come to a .007% over completely random margin of success. So unscientific and unsuccessful, and these are the best known experiments right now aside from the Scole Experiments that are utterly ridiculous in their lack of objectivity. Evidence is arrived at from a strict standard of objectivity. Now show me some evidence

"extremely skeptical" but believe in a deity......

Your perception is your reality, it meant something to you and that is what's important.
Its kind of like explaining a dream to someone, they'll never quite understand it, but deep down you probably will. Many people have had these type of experiences, so I think there is a reality to them, at least in the mind of the person experiencing it. It is more on a personal level.

He doesn't need to look at the links..leave him be...geeeshh again what is it with you people...why must everything that is witnessed be some freaking illusion??? Since when are you and those like you that have came up with the same crap be some kind of expert on these things??? Science cannot explain the paranormal and neither can you

Zero..don't let any one of them get to you..I believe you...and I am sure other will too...after all it's not every day you come in here and make up dribble on ghosts ect...neither do I...It only happened to me once before

But how can 3 people misunderstand what they're seeing? It wasn't on our minds to see it in the first place.


I agree with most things that DL has to say but this is one area, so far, that I have to disagree with - or at least keep an open mind about. He doesn't offend me in any way. I like the guy, lol. I just think that he (sorry, "you", DL) could at least consider the idea that something on the other side is capable of making itself known, and not use words such as "delusional". It's unfair because people can't help what they see/think they've seen/are almost sure they've seen. I, like Zero and BM, didn't ask or will ourselves to see it in the first place. I didn't disbelieve in their existence, but I was far from hoping to see one. It couldn't have been the furthest thing from my mind.


Yes. This is another thing that I disagree with, DL. You say that people who limit themselves by using their own experiences are "challenged"? In my own opinion, people who haven't experienced this, maybe people like yourself, are more challenged when it comes to discovering what it really is.



DL: Your "black guy" scenario, I agree with, but that was relating to someone whom has no experience of the outside world. Experience is a key to living your life. If you don't gain it, how can we progress? Who's to say that Zero, BM and myself (among many other people) are not wrong, and that our sitings are the beginning in the discovery of such beings?


It could be both: an unwillingness to listen and the desire to understand things objectively. The problem in this case is, what is objective? So far, there is no such thing, purely because there is not 100% proof to say exactly what it is we are seeing.


How can anyone else say the he doesn't know what he saw? He was there! He has eyes! He had no other explanation. Don't you think he would have given it more thought? He said it was "as clear as day". It wasn't a mild blur, a reflection, A DOG!!! He saw it.


And that's where "personal experience" can be more valid, although it is yet to be proven by science, lol.


Thats the point. They are not experts the same as we aren't. The difference is, we are sure that we've seen the unexplainable - and YES, it is still unexplained - no matter how much science will tell you different.


Lol. I knew from the second I read Zero's post that someone would mention the word "tired".

Although there are a number of explanations for peoples' sitings, I also believe that it is possible and have seen it for myself. An alternative theory doesn't apply to every case.


In General: I said that I have two experiences; only one of those is wen I actually saw something. The other is different ...

How do you think you would explain more than one light coming on, and going off in your house? Hearing someone bang on your bannister like 20 times in a minute (so no, it wasn't a slight 'tap' that could be mistaken for something else)? Hearing your front door SLAM shut, and when you check it, it is still locked from the inside (triple twist lock that can only be done inside)? Within (possibly) half an hour, finding a door mat - that was originally in front of the door - to be in the middle of the hall (this is a very thick, heavy, and quite large mat)? Having the police over, and not finding any sign of forced entry (everything locks on the inside (doors, windows) and yet everything was still locked when checked? Oh, and did I mention that my dog and I were the only ones home?

How can you mistake that? My house wasn't large and is layed out in such a way that, if someone else was there, I would have seen or heard them. Especially when you take into account that, in the time it took me to check the last room, I would have bumped into someone at some point. Even if someone was there, how did they lock the door from the outside, on the inside? How did the door mat move AFTER the front door had slammed shut, unless there were two people in the house with me even though there were no signs of forced entry?

Okay, I probably made a huge mistake by telling you, and believe me, I'm expecting to get some sh*t off you ... whatever! Say what you like. I'm open to your theories. I'm sure it's nothing I haven't heard before.

I BELIEVE you T...100% with you on this..it must have been awful girl.and no one could mistake what you went through for something else.....but there are people here that will say your mind your ears ect is playing tricks on you...they talk through their rear ends if you ask me....unless they too have experienced something similar they wont believe it.....

Stand your ground T...don't let them tell you any different

Same to you Zero...

You have already poo poo'd all possible evidence without even seeing it.. I don't have any need to change your faith.

I would expect you to know that credible peer reviewed work is usually copyrighted and costs money. You will need to pony up or run yourself to the library.

Actually I poo poo'd, as you put it, evidence that was presented to me in the course of this thread on websites provided by particpants. I read through these websites and found their methods lacking objectivity and said specificly where I found their "evidence" and why it was lacking.
I don't have to find evidence to the contrary of paranormal activity when their is no credible evidence to refute in the first place. Secondly, you can read the abstracts of any article in any journal for free and search the databases for free. If you find something pertinent it's a quick trip to the library to read the whole article or just post the credits and I'll do the legwork.

Here's one site with links to searchable databases:
http://www.eurekalert.org/links.php?jrnl=A

And there are a good many more.

I don't need to read the links. The person who wrote that information wasn't there when I saw. And no, at 2AM I'm not tired at all. I usualy sleep during the day on weekends. I had slept untill 3PM the day before.


It isn't rocket science to know that some peope may remember things wrong. I mean come on, it's like no $hi%. But I know that this wasn't one of those times. Believe me. There's nothing I can do to convince you. So I give up. You guys are so in denial, you'll even deny that I even saw what I'm telling you I saw. You have to resort to believing that I misinterprated what I saw, that way you don't have to try and explain how I saw a spirit. But you know what, it's ok, I understand that you've weren't there so it's all good.



If you can think of anything that could even resemble a dead person walking passed my door in spirit looking form, then pass me what you're smoking!

Listen up Zero...it's doesnt matter what time of the day you saw it...yu still know what you saw

If you had of said you saw it at noon they would still put it down to some crap like tiredness

Ah, my friend, you must give every possibility the objective scrutiny you would your subjective perception.

People who suffer from sleep paralysis (and I am in no suggesting this in your case) believed fully in the interpretations of their mind whether they be possessions or alien abductions (whatever their subconscious mind was prone to spit out) until they were diagnosed and realized what was happening, then that certainty of their perception quickly crumbled no matter how real they thought they were at first.

To not explore other considerations and evidence displays either a weakness in the positivity of your experience or a stubbornness you quickly label critical thinkers guilty of.