Yo, listen. I know what the links conclusion is, our perception and memory is not perfect! Even a 3rd grader would know that. I've made mistakes in my life when trying to remember things, who hasn't?




So you're weak? I never seen you even give into the possability that I did see what I'm claiming to have seen. You havn't given me an explaination of how one can see a dead person in the form of a ghost.




Sadly, that is very true.

Yeah, I can describe something I saw once at an old house my family was renovating. It was two or so years ago. I was standing outside with my family, they were talking to some friends about who-knows-what. I was admiring the sky--it was a little cool, no breeze, no nothing, and suddenly this cloud, ragged but very substantial, about four feet in diameter, flies from one side of the yard to the other in about three seconds, at about head level. Now, there was no breeze at all. I know, because the entire back yard of that house is hedged in with medium/full-size trees packed into a solid wall. And there was no motion from any of those. The cloud just disappeared into the motionless leaves on the opposite side it had entered on, and that was it.

My father told me, once I asked him about it, that he had seen the same thing in the front yard a few times when the house was still abandoned--fog and things around where there shouldn't have been anything, moving around pretty quickly. We are very familiar with the area, having lived fairly close by at one point, and those things could not be explained by any local phenomenon.

And, interestingly enough, he later explained to me that my great-grandfather died of a heartattack in the backyard, where his garden used to be. Right where the cloud flew over. I don't believe in ghosts all that much, but you're welcome to draw your own conclusions.

I wonder if its your granfather?? BTW I believe you

It's much more complicated than that and includes experiments in invented memories that prove that's a very relevant factor. If you would have read it like I took the time too look into Zammit's sources, you would no that.



Myself and others have given you many possible explanations throughout this thread!

Do you remeber the video game you were playing???? Did you beleive in ghosts prior to this experince???Tell me more about the friend are they alive or dead????I'm genuinely curious Zero

hold on can someone like break this down for me? a ghost? always an interesting thing to see or hear or feel or smell whatever.....ok again what are we talking about? and why are people being so mean around here?

The only explaination I've seen from you were ones to explain how I didn't actualy see what I saw, and/or misinterprated it. Not, how a dead person would appear to someone in ghost form. You gave no explaination as to how that's possible.

And it doesn't matter how much more complicated than that it is! I know what I saw, I even remember my reaction when I saw it, it wasn't like, "Oh, I think I see a ghost!", it was more like "Oh... my... God! What the hell?!" [LOL]


You know it's not impossible for someone to remember an experience like this correctly right? Ok, good. This is one of those times.




I was playing Final Fantasy Seven. It was an old friend who was dead at the time.

Uh-huh. Your experience was very similar to mine and I see nothing valid about their explanations.

As to my other experience, I see no attempt to explain that. Zero, their just throwing ideas across the table. They weren't there so they sure as hell can't give you a good enough theory without using someone elses - most of those theories happen to come from skeptics.

Was it a recent death or some time???? Do you beleive what you saw was a ghost??and why????why are you so sure, how are you so sure? Had this ever happened before????
Do you have interests in the paranormal????before this happened did you think it was interesting the others who have seen ghosts , did you yourself ever want to see a ghost????

zero,

i remember having a conversation with you regarding hypothetical explanations for "ghosties" and you were less than open to anything other than the layman's accepted view of "ghosties" so why do you ask for possible explanations beyond issues addressing perception when it seems all you are looking for is a "we saw the ghosties" support group?

I'm upset now i've never seen my ghost....but i can hear him on occassion, smell him, and feel him. He also moves things, takes things etc....this has been a life long thing with me....people who are around me just sort of expect it.....but it would be nice to see him, other then a shadow or a movement past a window.....ok maybe i'm insane now lol....

He already said that he believes it to be a ghost that he saw. The reason is because he saw it! He's so sure because he saw it!

Ha ha ha ha, i love your sense of humor, "ghosties" lol @ post

Zannie: ""extremely skeptical" but believe in a deity......"

-- I believe it was Whitman, in "Song of Myself," who wrote "Do I contradict myself? / I must contradict myself / I am large / I contain multitudes." Human Nature has a logic to it but it's Associative Logic--which doesn't always appear to make sense.

Because I'm open minded. I'm looking for any explainations as to HOW I saw what I saw, not if I saw what I saw. Maybe I'm actualy seeing a person from the afterlife, maybe it's a "Recording", etc...




You'll be treated like it, but I understand where you're coming from.

So in other words it is OK for him to make contradictory statements?



LOOK AT THAT LINK I GAVE YOU!

You guys aren't going to convince me that I might have mistaken what I saw. If I thought I did, I'd gladly admit it. Reading links about human perception isn't going to change what happened that night.



I am open minded. You call ignoring what I saw and believing someone who wasn't there open minded?

clearly you still do not understand, the explanations are certainly out there and available to all.

Gentlemen i ask you is it really worth detailing all teh mechanisims that allow the "ghost experience" to exist.

i for one do not see the point, i would on an individual who is able to grasp the concepts of critical reasoning but this chap seems to assume that what ever he experiences is teh absolute truth and unmolested in anyway.

lets all just hope he isn't called for jury service.

this is really a question of people thinking they know better as they have experienced these unique and special moments. sadly this is just the view of people unaware of correct scientific technique and so unaware how to spot reliable data from bad data.

it angers me that peopel have teh arrogance to write off scientific technique that they know nothing about.

let me iinform you that the non scientific mindset (simple man) is something we have all experience of (early life) yet the scientific reasoned mind is possessed by relatively few (in society in general), so is it not unreasoned stupidity to claim you know best when the two mindsets disagree as you are only experienced in one.

Why don't you lay off and I don't find your crap funny either

To everyone else that likes to poke fun and argue with him or the rest of us that have seen or heard stuff...get over it ok..and back the feck off

Why can't any one of you get it into your heads that not all of us really wanted to see anything..I know I didn't and I am sure T and Zero didn't either oohhh look at you all sitting there all smug going oohh it could be your mind yaddda yadda bore the a** off me crap!!

Just answer this, give me one solid piece of evidence that your gawd exists. Just one. You post about gawds that don't exist. They are suppositions made by fearful, ignorant people.

Please don't take the word ignorant as a flame, ignorance is simply a lack of knowledge, not the ability to acquire it.

No really BM tell us how you really feel

I can't no one can..plain and simple...and incase you may not be aware...its called having a faith for a reason

calm down BM, think of your blood pressure!

that past conversation with zero was about hypothetical explanations of "apparitions", which included but was not limited to the active role the brain plays in constructing reality.

at that time, zero did not wish to entertain any alternative explanations for such sightings. in other words, he was open minded to anything that confirmed his preconception of what these sightings were.

so please, don't get all huffy before knowing the history.

That sucked!


Lmao. Damn, BM. You sure do rant, girl. It's cracking me up. Sorry.

Sorry but thats how I feel....see I wasn't raised a liar and I don't feel the need to on here what's the point?? My story was not to impress anyone, it sure didn't impress me.....I don't like the idea of seeing anyhting paranormal and I never will. My eyesite is fine..and so are my senses....the trouble with skeptics is that they need proof of everything....I can't blame them for that but geeesh how can anyone show proof of ie - a UFO, alien or a ghost??? if you are out walking your dog and you see someing staring you in the face...do you always have a cam on the ready? I know I don't!! I am skeptical of a lot of things ghosts USED to be one of them till I had an encounter myself and it wasn't nice

I just wish some folks would try and understand that we didn't make this crap up nor do we believe our minds where playing tricks of any kind...

I hardly ever take Zero's side on anything ever but this is one thing I can do...cuz I did experience it too.


Some of us once said we also believe in aliens on other planets and some skeptics did say..that they too believe that...after all why would God create life on one planet and not the rest...its a big universe am I right? ...well just cuz it's strange dont mean it didnt happen

Ok sorry hyper I did go a tad overboard.....but gee its hard to explain....see I have read this enire thread...I always argue with Zero...but when I read his posts I thought...well how can I argue with him now...I know where you are coming from...but at least I can see the sides on BOTH - SKEPTICS & BELIEVERS...I wear BOTH caps...thats why I can understand where each person comes from..even yourself...

Either ONE of you that don't believe...how do you know that anyone of you may well recieve an unwelcomed visitor?? and I aint talking about mormons lol

well clearly you are of teh "emotional" type, this is hardly something to promote when you claim you witnessed things "as they were"

Precisely.

Zero is asking for paranormal explanations from people who see nothing paranormal in what he saw. He's obviously never going to accept an explanation to satisfy him from anyone who comes a viewpoint of logic and critical thinking in this matter. It should be noted that while we all fully entertained his links and sources he will not read any posted links that take a critical view of such phenomenon because he thinks he knows what they say when his posts clearly state otherwise. We can all have opposing views, but we're all mostly courteous enough to read other people's links before we find fault in the reasoning of whatever evidence they do or don't possess. Otherwise, what are we doing?

Explain how science can explain the paranormal?? and while you are at it...explain as to what make you the expert?

And another thing Desk


Don't sit there juding me ok? you don't know me you havent been here long enough to see what kind of person I am...but if you judge me from a few posts thats just typical...only pig headed people act that way

the immortal line "you dont know me", as spoken so many times on good old jerry springer.

Well it may be a common line but here's the clincher...it's TRUE..and you don't...or are you going to tell me something that may shock me?? I so can't wait ...let me get some popcorn and get ready for this exciting experience!!

one can draw numerous nuggets of informations from the way you style your posts, its nothing special or secret.

"Surely you must know that what many say, some must mean?"

--classic line, paraphrased. I think it's from Jane Eyre.

Zannie, I would say YES, it is okay for Zero to make contradictory statements in this particular situation. Ghosts and [G-d] are mutually exclusive beliefs.

I contradict myself on a daily basis, sometimes hourly. For instance, I know that cigarettes will kill me but I smoke a pack of them every day.

Is that it?? is that what you base your facts on a few of my posts??? go on give it another try please do....or you could chose option B...you could take more time and read more and maybe learn something different about BM

See Desk I don't know you...all I know right now is that you are skeptic...you can get very arrogant at times but here's the tricky part.........that don't mean it's who you REALLY are it will take a lot more time on these boards to see what you are really like...I can't fully judge you on a couple of posts???? Im not that big of a muppet

PS and you are from the UK too

Then how can we begin to understand him?

You're still missing it. I'm open to all explainations, I just disagree with the explainations that try and tell me that I didn't see what I know I did. Anything else is up for question.


Believing I didn't see a spirit/ghost would be like eating a sandwich, and then believing you ate a roach because skeptics tell you otherwise!(Lol)

Paranormal is a label given to a phenomenon by people who care not to delve into any factual basis for its existence and instead resort to mythology and psuedoscience.

As for what makes me an expert, I would say expert in what regard? If you mean science, I'd say my schooling and a fascination with it that keeps me reading constantly to keep abreast as well as possible. If you ever find fault in my science, please point it out. If you mean paranormal, well, I was a teenager too once. Not that long ago really

clearly i cannot tell you detailed and thourough personality traits you possess.
but one can identify leanings and one can certainly assess someones ability to interpret principles and problems through this forum.

^^ No you can't. I'm a totaly different person in real life. It depends on your environment as well. And your mood at the time it all happened, etc... No one is the same 24/7. Some peopel who are unders tress may see things that aren't there [at least I hear from these skeptics]. So trying to figure someone's personality on these forums is not a valid way to find a way to refute their experience.

Umm Zero wake up he was talking to me

So you're trying to put yourself above others? It doesn't take science to figure out if I saw a person who was suppose to be dead or not. If all you can think is science science science, science is never wrong, science is always right, etc.. You'll be closed minded. And these scientific studies on the human perception in no way shape or form show that in every single case, the human perception is flawed and the human memory is flawed. There are still those who have good memory and good perception of what they saw, and with this particular experience, I'm one of those people.


I bet if science told you that you were gay, but you thought you were straight you'd kiss a guy!

But Zero, you're not getting that though you saw a "ghost" from the "spirit realm" there are adequate explanations to explain what you saw wasn't a ghost, but that's not to say you didn't see your friend, just that he was in your head. You don't seem to understand the power of the human to see things that aren't there. If you're going to ignore posted links, then what's the point? You only want possible paranormal explanations, which are no explanations at all.

I meant paranormal and btw I wasn't a teenager when I saw my ghost...and guess what...do you think that ghosts only appear to teenagers??
You are not an expert on the paranormal...you havent seen anything out of the ordinary or heard for that matter...but who knows some fine day you might

See people.....thing is...I am aware if you sit and stare at an object you will think it's moving...the same if you stare at a tree you can imagine just about anything..but when you stare at some looking back at you...and you look away then a couple of mins later you look again and its still there moving about...you think holy mother of crap WHY is this and what the feck is it doing in my room? You wait for another few mins and the flaming thing is still there ..then what? I recall not being able to go back to sleep the night I saw my ghost...I was too scared to....I kept looking out my door hoping my dad would get up the stairs but no hope...this ghost didn't seem to budge either

I would understand it more so if I had only a glimpse of something..then I would have put it down to my head but gee this was no glimpse

I read Tornados posts on her experiences too and all I can say thank gawd I didn't go through that...Tell me how the heck could she imagne all the loud bangings and door slammings ect?

I hear noises all the time in my house (creaking noises) but I know for a fact they are just the floorboards creaking with the water pipes from under them...but I never hear banging or slamming of any kind....if I ever do.......im outta there faster than you can lift a bible

Ya know what ??? I so hope that for all of you that sit there all smug and poke fun and make various claims that it could be our minds ect playing up AHEM well....



I hope y'all get a visit from a ghost that stands over your bed and scares the living posts out of you all and not one of the casper kind either har har har


And since you are all skeptics no prayers will save you ner ner

Wasn't implying you were a teenager at the time. Just meant that was last time I believed in such things. Also, I have in my time experienced some things you'd call paranormal, hence my interest when I was younger. Since coming to a better understanding of such things as cognition, perception and memory, I know there cause.



This can be fully accounted for through many cognitive and perceptual processes. It has nothing to do with "wanting" to see anything.

I know it hasn't capeo...but sometimes it has but not for me..I told each of you I am what's called a yellow belly

I think its much harder to explain something that wont buge and moves when you look at it...and even when you turn away and wait for a while, like I did..and look back its still there...see capeo I was hoping is was just my mind and hoped it would go away, because I have seen other things in a short glimpse and just put them down to my imagination...that's seems all the more reasonable and easier to explain right? but not the other thing I saw ..no sorry

Thing is BM here doesn't want to believe in Ghost...when you compare that with my belief in God there's a difference..and that is I want to believe in God...he doesnt frighten me

perhaps we need to delve deeper into the inner workings of the psyche?

as we see those that have seen stand fast by their claims, we witness many a well documented attributes of human functionality, ranging from perception, memory, all the way up to higher level functions such as "rationalizing".

As we see from the "ghost seers", there is a strong need to make a novel experience conform to their predefined reality, to confirm their own "stability". Thus, it is more comforting to accept a vague explanation that is backed by other "experiences" than it is to deeply question oneself.

Exactly. I put many things down to my imagination, but not this experience.


May I also note that I have close friends who I know would not lie to me, that told me of a time where more than one of them saw the same ghost at the same time. This really doesn't sit well with the "imagination" idea. And there's been many other claims as well that speak of people seeing the same ghost at the same time.

Last ditch effort to see if anyone will read anything:
http://neurology.health-cares.net/hypnagog...llucination.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnopompic_imagery

And I'm spent.