I see alot of debates..hrm..let me try that again. I see alot of fantasy senarios about aliens and their agenda here on Earth.Lets back off to our neutral corners for a moment and consider an intimately related question: why would aliens be visiting now? According to the most popular view of this matter, extraterrestrial craft have been flitting across our skies since 1947. Thats 59 years in a planetary history of 4,600,000,000 years. If we assume for the moment that these claims are real, this chronology tells us immediately that either (1) we are the beneficiaries of an enormously rare event (one chance in 100 million, or if you want to argue that no aliens would visit until they detected oxygen in our atmosphere, one chance in 40 million), (2) the aliens routinely visit Earth, or (3) our activities (nuclear tests, environmental degradation, etc.) have attracted the aliens attention, and encouraged them to drop by.

The first possibility, that we just happened to luck out (being around for the first and only alien encounter), is less probable than that you not someone, but you will win next months lottery jackpot. It strains credulity, to use polite vernacular.

The second possibility, that Earth hosts extraterrestrials on a routine basis, and therefore a visit during your lifetime is not particularly improbable, deserves a bit more scrutiny. The question is, how often do they visit? If its only once in a few tens of millions of years, were back to the first possibility, and the odds are highly stacked against you being one of the lucky visitees. But some folk claim that aliens have glissaded to Earth in historical times (five millennia ago, when the pyramids were built, or one millennium ago, when the Nazca Indians elected to decorate the Peruvian desert floor with glyphs of turkeys and other of their favorite fauna). If any of this is true, it argues for visits at least once every 1,000 years or so. The problem with this is that barring some reason for them to visit humans in particular (a possibility we consider below) it implies that there have been millions of expeditions to Earth! We may send the occasional anthropological research team to Borneo, but we dont send millions. And its a lot easier to get to Borneo than to traverse hundreds or thousands of light-years. This, too, seems to be an unlikely explanation for visitors now.

Finally, we consider door number three were we have enticed the aliens with human activity. Lets set aside the question of whether advanced galactic societies would have the slightest interest in our wars, our pollution problems, or our reproductive systems. The real question is, how would they know about us at all?

In fact, theres only one clear and persistent "signal" that Homo sapiens has ever sent to the stars: our high-frequency radio transmissions, including television and radar. The Victorians (let alone the Egyptians or the Nazca Indians), despite all their technical sophistication, could never have been spotted from light-years away. Humans have been making their presence known to the universe only for the last 70 years or so.

And thats a problem. It means that even if, after receiving an earthly transmission, the aliens can immediately scramble their spacecraft and fly to Earth at the speed of light, they cant be farther than 8 light-years away to have arrived by 1947. There are four star systems within this distance. Count em, four. Were back to winning the lottery.

Dont get me wrong.I understand that some people love the idea of Earth or its human inhabitants have not only attracted the attention of galactic neighbors, but encouraged them to visit. But frankly, the numbers dont give much support to this somewhat self-indulgent idea.

I want to say sooooooooo much right now... For, and against you...

Isn't it possible, or even plausible, that the root cause simply comes down to inherent curiosity? And, just because we don't have the technology to get "there" from "here" doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. That we measure time and distance in light-years is a self-imposed standard and it need not apply elsewhere.

Sorry Hazz. I look at the sky and see infinity. No proof. No logic. No concrete belief. Just pure imagination.

I tend to think that if ET has noticed us it's due to some sort of advanced technology they possess, not anything we've done. It's a real long shot that ET has paid us a visit, IMO. Oh, it's not inherently impossible, but there just doesn't seem to be any real solid evidence available. So, for me, the question remains one of speculation.

us lowly humans have ideas of where 100's of earth like planets might be... surely alien advanced tech. would know how to find these as well and would probably know how to get her really fast. but i personally dont believe any ET's have visited since the Dogon days....

yea, its a beautiful world, old pal

edit

so wheres the facts? sounds like you too are self indulging only in the opposite direction from those others you are talking about.

you could be right, but as far as facts about this subject, .......... , just sounded like a well thought out opinion to me

even scientists dont know the "facts" about aliens. maybe there arent any period, maybe they exist but cant come here, maybe they exist and come here (all speculations).

but i admit, your assumptions seem reasonable. however, no one knows. and hence, no one has the facts.

You wouldn`t be Mindfreak if you only were for, or only against something.

And about the topic title,Carl Butters is right,the word "facts" might have been a to strong word. But everything is relative,I mean,look at some of the "facts" that we have seen presented here as evidence for the alien Nordic/Pleiadians/Mantis or whatever on Earth, my facts are atleast somewhat scientific and based on reality as we know it.

And one more thing,I absolutely believe that there are life on other planets in the universe,intelligent or not.I just don't se the evidence that they are or have ever been here on Earth.Sorry,but blurry pictures of UFOs and stories about cows mutilated butts or abductions wont do. I still await a compelling Exhibit A.

Hazzard
Our own scientists have now developed telescopes and other equipment that can detect the atmosphere of a planet from light years away.
What do you think we'll be capable of in 100 years ?.
Our technological age began in earnest approximately 100 years ago with the Industrial revolution, what do you you think a civilisation that has been technologically advanced for 1000 or even 2000 or possibly even 50000 years would be capable of ?.
Taking into account that well worn cliche that there are more stars in our galaxy than there are grains of sand on a beach ....how many beaches of planets are out there ...considering our own star has ten planets orbiting it.
My point here is how can we even begin to second guess who's coming here or why they come here......I'm sure that as soon as our own scientists detect a planet with an oxygen rich atmosphere the race will be on to get there and check it out.
After that well then theres always an opportunity to make money isn't there ?.....who knows maybe weeds from this planet are worth millions on another planet ......
Trying to second guess the motives of those from another world seems to me to be a futile exercise ...because the answer is simply unknowable.....UNLESS you're in the know

Wow, you took everything I was going to try to say, and shrunk it down to a good simple paragraph... Very nice I hate feeding off of other people's posts, but this was what I had in mind, I like it...

So very true... I agree with you that it does seem very, very improbable if you use our (human) understanding of things... But we are only humans, we have not been here long enough to even break the barrier of what's possible and not possible in the universe...
I'd say if another race/civilization has been here long before us, it just seems plausible that they (assuming they are intelligent) are far past what we would call superior, and would probably have things we would only dream of... But this is pure speculation, and that is where I tend to agree with you, besides imagining, and speculating, we have nothing (or close to it). BUT, look at the age of the universe, and look at the size of the universe...The possibilities are E-N-D-L-E-S-S

I agree with Bogeyman on this,we just dont know. Not yet.


And mklsgl , the problem I have with the claim that alien crafts are prowling our planet is not with the transportation mode, but with the evidence. I’ll worry about how they got here once I’m convinced that they’ve really made the scene.

Ok, I understand why the kids here don't fall for the scientific angle on this whole aliens on Earth deal.
I also understand why they lock them selves in a thread,pleading to the sceptics to leave them alone and their favorite fantasy intact.I understand,I really do. I used to be one of them,and then some, when I was a kid. And I loved it.

and then you grew up and became ignorant to the facts? go spend a half hour at the NUFORC website and view last months sightings..you wont because you already have your answers ...your daddy told ya

This is from the top of your page,your link.



Means nothing. UFO is always Unidentified Flying Object, and its quite a strech from aliens on Earth.



Wrong. Your mother told me.

You'll just have to see exhibit A up close and personal like I and many many others have done. The one I seen I was able to get about 1,000' to 1,500' away from it. Regretfully; without a camera.

he doesnt look at the sky he might see something... what did you see? ive seen exhibit a several times so his denial cant effect me..

If you say so.




Now that is a problem,I and other "aliens on Earth scepticts" would have loved to se the pictures. I have said this before and Ill say it again,alot of people have claimed to see odd craft in the skies. Its safe to say that these witnesses have seen something. But just because you dont recognize an aerial phenomenon doesnt mean that its an extraterrestrial visitor. That requires additional evidence.

To be taken seriously, you need physical evidence that can be examined at leisure by skeptical scientists: a scraping of the whole object/ship, and the discovery that it contains isotopic ratios that aren't present on earth, chemical elements form the so-called island of stability, very heavy elements that don't exist on earth. Or material of absolutely bizarre properties of many sorts -- electrical conductivity or ductility. There are many things like that that would instantly give serious credence to an account. So far I havent seen any,all I see is stories,blurry pictures,hoaxes and wishful thinking from kids bombarded with Star Trek

Here's the problem with just sighting a UFO: You don't know if the pilot of the afore mentioned strange looking craft is an alien, or simply a human testing out the latest black operations technology. All one can be sure of is that they saw, what appeared to them to be, some strange looking air craft. That's really all one can logically conclude from just sighting a UFO (no contact with the occupants).

I have said this before, but I guess I will have to say it again...

There have been THOUSANDS of physical trace cases from all over the world. One of the more famous accounts is the Betty Cash encounter. Betty Cash after encountering a UFO hovering a few feet above the middle of the road she developed a serious case of radiation poisoning and actually sued the government suspecting their involvement. She later died as a result of this encounter on the 18th anniversary of the incident.
Here is a link to the story for further clarification: http://www.ufocasebook.com/Pineywoods.html

This isn’t the first time such an event has taken place!

Here are just a couple of the thousands of physical trace cases available for research:
http://www.ufocasebook.com/missouricrash.html
http://www.majesticdocuments.com/video/huffman-mann_hi.ram (video excerpt from a documentary discussing the above event briefly.)
http://www.ufocasebook.com/Hill.html
http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/hillmap.htm (further verification of above account)
http://www.konsulting.com/friedman7-L3.wav (The Betty Hill Star Map is an important development that remains unexplained according the Friedman)
http://ufocasebook.com/Rendlesham.html (One of the most thoroughly researched and credible physical trace cases. Many pages including official government documents. Larry Warren of the disclosure project was involved.)
http://www.ufocasebook.com/ubatuba.html (UFO Fragments)
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/physica...esium/index.htm (Another source of the above event)
http://www.ufocasebook.com/Zamora.html
http://www.ufocasebook.com/scoutmaster.html
http://www.ufocasebook.com/Shagharbor.html
http://www.project1947.com/bctrace1.htm
http://www.ufocasebook.com/physicaltracefiles.html
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/physicaltracecases.htm
http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/a...e_phys/toc.html
http://www.nidsci.org/pdf/rullan.pdf (UFO odor cases)

"If UFOs are real, shouldn't they produce some real physical effects?" The answer is that they do. There are rather well-authenticated cases spanning a wide variety of "physical effects."
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc616.htm

http://www.konsulting.com/friedman6-L3.wav (Science says you can't get there from here, but Friedman says that's just not true. Friedman also goes on to explain the significance of physical trace cases.)

Who is this addressed to? I really don't see anybody on here "pleading to the skeptics to leave them alone and their favorite fantasy intact"... I think you are getting a little defensive... "I understand why the kids here..." Trying to feel like a grown up Hazzard? C'mon man lighten up, if you know how the kids think, and know that they believe in aliens and sh**, let 'em... You don't need to try to talk down to people to make yourself feel better, just have a beer or two

ahahahahah you probably shouldnt go on here and tell people this, let people have a imagination. O and im not saying they exsist or not, because i have seen stuff i cant explian so calm down.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...showtopic=62287



Defensive,no,and as far as me being one of the oldest ones on this site,with Lilly,well thats just the sad truth.



I never call anyone kid just to make my self feel better,I just call them as I see them,and good idea, I think I will have that beer now.

Well I think that "believer's haven" doesn't fit into the category of pleading for the skeptics to leave them alone... It was more of a thread where believers could discuss what they believe without any taboos, and having to worry about if the other people will agree with them or not... It was just to get ideas in the open, without anybody saying "there is no proof" (which is understandable, there isn't, but it's starting to become a lot of skeptics' theme song...Even though it may be the truth, get a new tune )... I thought it was fair to let people say what they want, and how they feel without any restraints because of other people's inability to let other people believe what they want (not speaking to anyone specifically).
Anyway, I didn't reply to this last night, so I must ask... How was the beer(s)?

How does that prove that it was an alien craft?

It really doesn't... But that would be the general conclusion for a case like that...Whether correct or not...

So did I,thats why I never joined that thread.






It was nice and cool,you will find out when your old enough...kid.

OUCH!!!

I didn't even see this until right now... I agree completely, seeing something of unknown origin, flying in the sky, doesn't rule out any possibility of it being a experimental aircraft. Actually, in my eyes, it is the most probable, and simplest answer... But the simplest answer isn't always the right one. But, it's not neccesary to add any extra details if they're not needed... So as far as I'm concerned, every UFO is just that, a UFO. I have seen UFOs that manuevered like nothing else I've ever seen. But, again, most probably, an experimental aircraft, but you just don't know. The reason (IMO) people jump to the alien craft conclusion (at least some people), is because of the abduction phenomena... I personally don't believe that thousands, and thousands of abduction reports all over the world are [b]all[/i] misinterpretations of a case of sleep paralysis, hallucinations caused by stress ( , PLEASE!??!), or some other "mental disorder", or episode... So the question that begs answering is... WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON, AND WHY ARE WE KEPT IN THE DARK ABOUT IT??
Aliens or not, something is going on... I can feel it...

How about you take a look at all of the cases that I provided rather than coming to a conclusion after reading just one case. There are many cases, some of which I presented, that include alleged fragments of alien space craft. Many of these fragments possess unusual characteristics that are very rare on earth like for example the Ubatuba fragment "This sample was analyzed and the results showed a 99.99% pure magnesium" "The significance of Dr. Barbosa's and Mr. Teixeira's findings is that it is impossible to produce any element, terrestrially, that is absolutely spectrographically pure." There are many other such cases available for research and investigation, you just need to open your eyes.

You used that case as one to support your argument. Im asking you how this case supports your argument, because it doesnt. I have taken a look at a few of the other cases, and they all seem to be along the same lines. Theres some that outright say something like "Results are inconclusive because the fragments are no longer available for study."



Go ahead. Quote the rest of what that site says. Particularly the part that says that the results can not be verified and the fragments can no longer be found to study and verify. Furthermore, given the technology, it is possible to produce such pure magnesium. Finally, I would really like to know why magnesium was used on the exterior part of a supposed spacecraft. Magnesium, IIRC, has a tendancy to burn quite easily... I wonder how it would survive reentry...

Well for one thing, these craft obviously don't use the same type of propulsion as we do. The reason for it being dislodged from the craft may have been due to the fact that it was 99.99% magnesium. However, the point is these craft don't experience any resistance when entering earth's atmosphere apparently which could be due to using an electromagnetic field or anti-gravity field, something along those lines would avoid any type of friction. Also it is difficult to burn when in large quantities. Magnesium as you might already know is paramagnetic. Paramagnetic materials attract and repel like normal magnets when subject to a magnetic field. Although some might think of this magnetic surface as a disadvantage of sorts it could be used in various different ways to propel the craft. For all we know this could have been used in the propulsion system rather than the actual exterior of the craft. Regardless of its purpose the fact of the matter is, when analysed it was spectrographically pure, which is an impossibility for terrestrial manufacturing.

You dont have a clue about what your talking about. Do you realy think that memorizing the sci-babble terms used in some scifi tv series are very useful if you get cornered by a skeptic, and you need to come up with some sort of "scientific" explanation. Why not throw in "inertial dampeners" wile your at it.

Irrelevant.



Im not as concerned about why it was dislodged as why it was part of the exterior of the craft. Magnesium melts at 922K. If Magnesium formed part of the outer shell of the craft, that simply suggests that the craft is not designed for entering an atmosphere... and I'm sure you can figure out what that means.



Or it means that the results are untrue (afterall, they cant be verified), or that these craft simply dont enter an atmosphere, hence this fragment does not support the conclusion that the craft is ET in origine...



Magnesium melts at 922K. Thats a simple fact. It doesnt even have to burn, it'll melt when subject to the friction of entering an atmosphere.



The FACT of the matter is, not only does that not prove that the craft is ET in origine, but it can not be verified even. And no, no one said its impossible to be manufactured on the Earth.

Again, no one said it was part of the EXTERIOR of the craft; only that it was PART of the craft. Who is speculating now? You must understand that these craft DO NOT experience ANY kind of drag or friction when entering into our atmosphere. If they did they would be as common a site as meteorites if they are coming and going at the speeds that have been reported whether the craft is in the visible spectrum or not (stealth technology) it wouldn't matter. The possibility of electromagnetic and anti-gravity fields have been proposed even amongst respected aerospace engineers, however, has never successfully been demonstrated. The idea was even included on the History Channel's recent documentary "Alien Engineering" discussing hypothetic technology that could explain the technology in which these craft operate based on actual accounts including one by the U.S. air force and in which have been proven possible. The possibilities are endless; you cannot come to a conclusion and claim it to be the truth solely by comparing it to what our current technology allows for. "If one possesses the necessary technology, anything and everything is a possibility."

So tell me, how did it find its way to the Earth? I doubt it was thrown out of a window... and if it was part of the interior, how did it find itsway to the exterior? The logical conclusion is that it chipped away from the exterior of the craft.



You must understand that you have no supporting evidence of this.



Have you any idea of how many UFOs are reported each year?



Have you any idea of what stealth technology is? Maybe you're thinking of cloaking?



Ahh, so at what point do you stop inadvertantly supporting the idea that its quite possible that these craft are human, and start proving that these craft are ET?

[ supporting the idea that its quite possible that these craft are human, and start proving that these craft are ET?
[/quote] maybe their human ets?

We don't know exactly the dimensions of the craft in which this fragment came from. There very well could have been open ventilation systems of sorts. It may even have been from an opening to some confusing form of propulsion system not yet thought of by terrestrial scientists that doesn't involve a rocket-like reaction. We just don't know these things so it cannot by any means be ruled out of the argument. If you fail to accept this as a possibility then you just simply aren't using common sense. It is this bone-headed logic, refusal to consider other possibilities and think outside of the box that has caused, at times, impeded scientific progress in various fields of research and development.


Many of these reports have little to no correlation to meteorites. Those that do are quickly dismissed if ever even mistaken in the first place.


I am not talking about being undetectable to radar I am talking about TRUE stealth. Scientists have discovered that matter (mass) on a subatomic level is simply electromagnetic wave patterns that vibrate so fast within a space that they give the illusion that mass is solid. Because of this, mass is believed to be both made of particles and waves. Particle and wave theory are fusing together as they are both revealing the same thing. All mass has waves that vibrate at various different frequencies. The waves in solid mass as we experience it, measured in Hertzian waves, is relatively low in frequency. Photons are very high in frequency. Photons are said to have near zero-mass, a property that allows them to attain light speed.

This same idea can then be contributed to an object shifting (using some kind of ionized plasma and electromagnetic field if I am remembering correctly) to a frequency that is beyond that of the visible spectrum therefore appearing completely invisible visually and even by radar depending on the intensity of the transformation. However, this theory is somewhat controversial because of the fact that it has never been actually demonstrated mainly due to the lack of funding in these fields. However, this idea was also briefly discussed in the History Channel documentary but the explanation was simplified.


This was another one of the topics of discussion in the History Channel documentary. Matter comes in 4 known states. Solid, gas, liquid and plasma. The manipulation of plasma in collaboration with an electromagnetic field can be used to create an artificial force field of sorts that could shield the craft from atmospheric conditions etc. thus preventing any sort of drag induced by the earth's atmosphere upon entry.

More scifi babble. Force fields shielding the craft or not, its the air in the shock layer infront of the object entering the atmosphere that experience a peak temperature. For example, a spacecraft entering the atmosphere at 7.8 km/s would experience a peak shock layer temperature of 7800 K. I think that would light up the sky no matter what shield in use,dont you.

Actually hazzard, UFOs have been around for a lot longer. I saw a program on Discovery or somewhat and they showed an old Madonna paiting (15th century I think?) and in the background there was a man looking at the sky where a saucer shaped object was.

Here is the painting:

We dont need to know the dimensions...



I consider that an exterior portion, since it would be in contact with the exterior.



Could have could have could have. So if it could have been any of these numerous possibilities, how is it evidence to support that the craft is ET?



Exactly my point. Refresh yourself on what I was replying to...



Stealth is simply acting in a covert fashion. You do mean a sort of cloaking device. Nevertheless, it doesnt matter what we call it.



No they have not "discovered" this, they have theorised it. Dont even try to get into M theory with me.




I'm still waiting for you to explain how this proves that the craft is ET...



Read above.



Whether that is actually a UFO painted or a symbol is covered in numerous threads... look them up.

We have been over this before,a UFO is just that,an Unidentified Flying Object.From there to alien space crafts on Earth is a HUGH step.

And about UFOs in old paintings,have a look at this.

http://www.sprezzatura.it/Arte/Arte_UFO_1_eng.htm

No it isn't... It's a huge step ( , I had to)...


Anyway Qarrah, if you want a good UFO art site click here.

It will give explanations to a lot of misinterpretations and such...

I think the title to this thread is somewhat misleading, in the interest of accuracy, It should have been called ‘A bunch of assumptions based on the current majority scientific viewpoint which in all ‘probability’ are going to be completely and utterly wrong’

We have been over this before,a UFO is just that,an Unidentified Flying Object.From there to alien space crafts on Earth is a HUGH step.

And about UFOs in old paintings,have a look at this.

http://www.sprezzatura.it/Arte/Arte_UFO_1_eng.htm





Oops

I think that reprodction of circumstances is a good tool to use to go by.

We are a planet and it is logical that all that what our intelligent species does would be done by other intelligent species on other planets.

They would look through lenses for planets near suns like their own where they think life might be possible.

They develop and study genetic manipulation and terra forming as we do.

They would study and develop devices and transportation to reach any place they can visually get a fix on.

All of this sounds as if Nature whether on our planet or some alien world will stumble into increased IQ sooner or later. But keep in mind that many of the dinosaurs,and all of the species soo far on Earth were/are in predator-prey relations (and may have been somewhat social, too). Why didnt they get smart? After all, they had 140 million years or so to do so.

Sixty-five million years ago, a rock the size of Brooklyn slammed into the Earth, wiping out three-fourths of all species, including the dinosaurs. If this hadnt happened, the rat-like mammals that eventually evolved into Homo sapiens wouldnt have inherited the world. And 245 million years ago, another catastrophe (known in polite society as the Permian extinction) wrote finis to an even larger percentage of species. These cosmic accidents were all forks in the long road that eventually led to us. Maybe on other worlds, the road never gets that far.

When it comes to the evolution of intelligence, the bottom line is that we dont know the bottom line. And indeed, we may never know how likely it is that intelligence will appear unless and until we find it elsewhere.

actually magnesium is necessary for some theoretical devices here on earth like the magneto hydrodynamic generator. " if a MHD unit becomes unstable, some of the magnesium may need to be ejected. " *

magnesium heated to a liquid , then circulated in a large circumference serves two purposes.

so its likely its of terrestrial origin. but whos knows....

*Popular Mechanics May 2001 "when ufos land:startling physical evidence they cant explain away. page 66

Hazz... Granted: there is no "Exhibit A" in evidence which removes all doubt. Can we simplify this and agree that the universe (multiverse) is "dizzy with possibilities?"

- Mikey