In Revelation we have an account of those who are to be in heaven ruling with God.

Revelation 7:4-8
And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed,
12,000 from the tribe of Reuben,
12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
12,000 from the tribe of Asher,
12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali,
12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
12,000 from the tribe of Simeon,
12,000 from the tribe of Levi,
12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun,
12,000 from the tribe of Joseph,
12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

144,000. 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.

What does this passage mean? Really? Revelation is notoriously difficult, and each passage has as many interpretations as their are individual's reading it.

So, for those that believe Revelation to be true, what does this passage mean? For those that don't believe it to be true, then what do you see as the point of this fanciful passage? For those, such as Gideon, who believe Revelation to be a political satire, what does this passage say to you?

Here is my opinion, for the record: Numbers have great significance in any apocryphal writing, such as Revelation is. 7, for example, is the number of completion/perfection. 4, denotes the world (4 winds, 4 compass points, 4 corners of the earth). The number 12 symbolically represents the people of God - 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles etc.

Additionally, multiples of said number also have significance, in this case 12,000. And that again multiplied by the 12 tribes.

It is established that 12 represents the people of God. I submit that this passage is not literally referring to Israelites only, since it is obvious that the Jewish nation turned from God on many occassions - their fallings documented thoroughly through the rest of the Bible - hence the need for Jesus. Thus those who follow Jesus can be siad to be the new Israel, a "spiritual Israel" if you wish to call it that.

Is God so tight then as to literally set aside 144,000 spots in heaven and leave the rest on Earth? By no means, I think. 12,000 x 12 - a large number, especially in those days. A large number, yes - but ultimately a finite number. A finite number of people on Earth, those who truly followed God, as God's people, have places set aside in heaven. Those who are not followers of God......................

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I look forward to hearing everyone's interpretation on this

Regards, PA

The numbers are symbolic, but I am not sure of what. Why would anyone interpret it literally?

Many do. They think 144,000 are those saints who are Godly enough to rule from heaven, while everyone lives forever on a paradise Earth.

Many churches who believe the Rapture, a concept not supportable by the Bible, except circumstancially, also believe a literal 144,000. The Jehovah's Witnesses also believe a literal 144,000.

Regards, PA

This is a belief of the Jehovah Witnesses. I'm not sure I even agree with it, but I could probably dig up some information about it if you'd like. I could probably dig deep and pull out why they believe this.


I do agree with the paradise Earth aspect of it though.

I understand the concept. Sorry, I was being rhetorically sarcastic. I read some where about it having something to do with DNA, but don't remember where. Actually, many xians of all flavors believe in a literal rapture, etc. Many jews and xians believe in the resurrection of the dead, too. Did you know that orthodox jews who have a severed limb are buried with it for that reason? My personal opinion is that it has to do with enlightenment and reincarnation.

Ummm.... What was that for? If you're not going to say anything, I think it's against the rules to spam like that.

That is my comment condensed, for those that need to be pacified . Namaste sheri

In other words, you have nothing intelligent to contribute to this discussion.....

I would say in my opinion the reason you see 12 in this way as others in the bible is to represent the different constellations. Thus the life of Jesus Christ could symbolized the life of the Sun through the constellations. If you make the diagram of the constellations with 4 quadrants, 3 in each quadrant, where at each point every 90 degrees represents the seperate seasons. So the Sun's travel through each quadrant represents a progression of life starting on December 25th, hence the birth of the 'Sun', 3 days after Winter solitice. The path around the diagram represents the entire life of the Sun until it is back to the Winter solitice.

Whenever you see the use of 12 in the bible it can be easily referred to the Zodiac. In fact the Leonardo Da Vinci painting has each of the 12 people gathered with Jesus separated in 4 groups of 3....

No not feeling anything jump out at me, I'm open though don't count me out yet. After all its your thread i'll ponder on it for a spell, i like the zodiac idea Namaste sheri

Well there is a passage somewhere within the Bible saying that God's qualities are evident everywhere in nature, and in the heavens (sky/stars), maybe the story of the Bible can be mapped out with Astrology.

Just a thought.

Regards, PA

LOL trust you

more likely, the whole story of Jesus is based on astrology to impress the pagans of the fourth century it was written for. Since the n.t. is basically a combination of Heracles and Mithras. he whole thing with the twelve disciples, like the twelve labors of Heracles-just pagan symbols.

PA

Here is a link for you. If you scroll down you will see the number 12 and its meanings in other cultures. It also has some things about the number 12 in Revelations and its relation in Christianity and use in the bible.

http://www.crystalinks.com/numerology3.html

Of course the bible warns against numerology.
Just being humorous there. I'll see if I can find anything else for you.

LMAO you made my nite on this one i love your wit you so get me..and i you......
ha ha ha ha ha

Revelation was none of the above...many scholars say that Revelation is nothing more than a political allegory against Rome and Nero in particular. Here is a website on the matter: http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/beast.html

Mako
I read something similar to this as well. Something to think on. Would make logical sense to the fact that John spoke in esotoric meanings rather than risk who he was refering to at the time.

There are some interesting parallels, but it's not necessarily true. I say that because we've had all manner of people adapting Nostradamus's predictions to all sorts of events with "striking parallels." Unfortunately, the same prediction gets applied to five or six different events. The lesson is, prophecy is notoriously hard to tie down.

It's not just the New Testament. The passage I was thinking of, if I remember right, is from the Old Testament. Even so, there are other OT passages that make similar assertions. Psalm 19, the heavens declare the glory of God (as one example)

Regards, PA

Thanks mako. I'm running short on time at the moment, can't check the site out. Does it say anything about the meaning of the 144,000?

btw, wasn't that one of my possibilites? A political satire (perhaps the wording is wrong, but one suggestion is that it WAS poking fun at certain politicking)

Regards, PA

satire isn't the exact right word, but the website they indicated pretty much points at nero. whether prophecy or politics, it fits the style at the time.

Yea it's good to laugh now and again init...there is you, me..Tornado, Zandore, I.Friend and rose_ashes know how to laugh and the best bit is we mean no harm...hey can you spot the chrsitian in that list of names

I think it was a a description that foretold a future decimation of the Jewish people.
They would have been aware of this Roman standard of punishment.

C&P

Decimation - Perhaps the most gruesome punishment of all known to the Roman army was that of decimation. It generally was applied to entire cohorts and meant that every tenth man, randomly chosen by a draw of lots, was killed by being clubbed or stoned to death by his own comrades.

if you read the website that was indicated earlier, all the events happened already about 1900 years ago.

That is a true statement for the whole Bible PA.

God said that at the end of the Rapture 144,000 people from the tribes of the 12 Famlies would have been sealed with the light on there foreheads and would stand on a sea of glass and be 1st fruits in the New World of Heaven/Earth. While those who recieve the mark of the beast on the wrists or forehead would be judged according to their deeds...My advice is don't worship the image of Babylon i.e.money Daniels statue of Gold (Nebbachanniza) Silver (Greeks) Copper (Persia) Iron (Romans) and Clay the modern day Kings

They were pretty much decimated during WW2.
I do not know that the dead count back then came as close to representing decimation as the one in WW2.

and raise you a

You're really willing to accept such circumstantial conjecture?

In light of the fact that prophecy (of all kinds!) is notorious for being interpreted with "striking parallels" to multiple historic events?

I just don't think it's safe to make that leap. I mean, it's possible, but that article hardly makes an airtight case.