I'd say that IMO the majority of the world believes in God, in one form or another, using any of the variety of religious texts to back their belief.

Why is it that more people dont believe in the part the self plays when it comes to God? There are various interpretations from religious texts that imply that the individual is a part of god. If this is so, and we have free will, Why not believe that you are god of yourself? that we are all our own god, responsible for our actions, and the effect of our actions regarding others and the outside world. Why cant "God's will" be your own?

Why is there a need for a greater being? Why is there a need for feeling that you may recieve redemption or punishment for your actions after death?

Why dont more people believe that once life is over, its over? Or even that once lifs is over that whatever spirit/essence/soul that you have moves on to expierence life again in another form (or even this one)?

Why is it that there is less concern over what your experiences are here than there is over what you believe? Organised religions from my experiences are about belief in their teachings and fear of god's judgement of you. With few exceptions, forgiveness is always an option. So whats the point? In reality no matter what you believe, the only true forgiveness you can recieve is from yourself. So why not give yourself credit for it?

Why is there a need to believe that a single entity created this universe that we live in? Why cant it just be accepted that we dont know yet, but are still looking for an answer?
What if we find that answer, and it turns out to be scientificly explainable? Would religion continue?

I have more questions along these lines, but i believe this will be enough to chew on for a while. All opinions are welcome.

wow...that is quite a bit to chew on...but in a good way.
I may have misread this topic in it's entirety, if so i'll fix the post to apologize, however my answer to your questions is a simple one.
Usually when one tries to believe their will is equal to gods, or they are in fact gods of their own fate, they are branded as sociopaths. it is natural of people to want to set up a heirarchy or order of beings. for one person to say that they are their own god, assuming others don't, other people view the one individual thinker as believing himself/herself as better than them, which causes problems. the only way to avoid this is if everyone were to follow in their footsteps. (not saying that's a good idea, that's just a theory)
the reason why society as a whole wont accept this concept of their will equating to that of god's is because the concept of god serves to lessen the burden and struggle of life, knowing that there could be some greater force, helping or at least watching is a comforting thought.
the last question,(or near last) in which you asked if we discovered the origin of everything and could prove it to be science based, would religion continue? I'd say yeah. while this is a difficult argument, people will still hold on to their beliefs, for the comfort they produce.
just my two cents though, feel free to ignore it.

people need someone to obey. they need direction and they need to feel that there is a purpose to life. therefore, they make up these dieties to fill the holes.

i suppose it is similar to a child's need for parents. they can live without them, but most children long for someone to love them unconditionally and teach them how to act, etc. same thing with grown people.

I think you answer your own question. People don't widely believe in that kind of ideology because that kind of religion is not explicity a part of those religious texts. When one generates relgious beliefs, they are generally the result of the religious texts--which, at best, only suggest the godlike nature of the individual.

Ad for the other little questions, I don't think that your assertion that "the only true forgiveness you can receive is from yourself" is founded. If that is your belief, I won't question it, but you are saying that somehow we are supposed to go from the religious texts to a self-empowering context. Since that's not the main point of the texts (or certainly it is not accepted as such) not many people hold that belief.

You last paragraph I don't really understand. What explanation for the universe's creation could possibly exclude creationism in all guises?

I realize that you are probably promoting ideas that diverge from normal, organized-religious beliefs. But in my humble opinion, you are coming at it from the wrong end.

I could care less if my life has a purpose or not. I'm here, so who cares? But I do believe there is some form of God. I at the least, believe there is something much more to existance than we currently think.

I have to agree, for while I do not know what that may be, i can't help but hope there is something more, greater or beyond ourselves...i guess there's only one real way to find out though huh?

Want to shoot eachother?

I'm free monday...

But why? why is there a need for that kind of comfort? Is it insecurity? is it the feeling of being alone that drives people to believe in a higher being that could provide comfort? Ive always been independant, My parents are both hearing impared, and due to the way they were raised, they never offered anything much more than making sure i was alive. So this comfort that everyone seeks, Ive always found in myself. Its hard to fathom the seemingly 'easier way' of belief in a higher being.
(*you answered very well btw)


I dont see religion as offering any dierction to a purpose in life, other than the moral structure offered. This can, should, and is usually learned early in life. Perhaps its the fact that most people dont feel that they have a purpose in life, that creates holes which need to be filled. Why would a person not create their own purpose instead of looking elsewhere for it? I guess filling a void in your emotions with security is better than nothing, I just dont understand it.
Why then, When a person spends 16 to 18 years of their life, with that kind of unconditional love, and having learned the proper way to act, does the same person go to religion for comfort? Granted there are not many 18 year olds who go to church on a regular basis, There are however many who choose the religious path later in life. Is this because they wish to return to the feelings of their childhood? Or is it fear that religion may be correct, and they better jump on the bandwagon or be left out of the afterlife?


I do realise that not many people hold that belief, What i dont understand is why they dont. I'm not attempting to change any beliefs I'm simply trying to understand them.
What i really dont understand is why self-empowerment is almost non-existent in religious texts. It seems to me that the more self-empowered an individual is, the better his/her life could potentially be.

There are a few theories that are based purely on science, Random quantum fluctuation (an effect with no cause) has been theorised to be a possible explanation of the big bang. And another lesser known theory of vaccum energy vs tension in the expanding universe that could cause a 'big bang' with implications that the universe is forever expanding. Neither rely on a 'prime mover'. I'm not saying that either could not be altered to include a prime mover, but the possibilty is there that it would not be included or necessary.

I think head-on is not a bad way to go when questioning.
My intention is just that, to question. If others read my questions and come up with their own, or question their own beliefs, its a plus indeed, they may learn more about themselves. But its not my intention to promote these ideas. I'm just looking for answers.

Great post

Your're right, there are various interpretations from religions texts that imply the individual is a part of God...thing is UA - we all know that everyone who is religious will have their own iews on God and how it all works...and each one will say the other has false teachings..their versions are right and everyone elses is wrong.

If we believe that we are God ourselves that would be slammed by religious folk...but yes we are responsible for our own actions and should try and work on our own actions live by our own rules (as long as we don't currupt the law) ...we don't need IMO a bible to guide us...there are non believers that know the difference between right and wrong..they don't need a guide to tell them how to lead their lives and they get along quite nicely without it.


See I am one of those that likes to think...there is an after life...it makes me happy to live in HOPE that one day I will see my loved ones again.....I think thats why the religious folk do this too....but saying that UA - I have quoted many times saying - if there is no heaven..then I'll just be dead and I wont know will I?? its no biggie really..but hey we all have some lil hope to cling on to ...that's all it is HOPE...but some religious folks see it as more than just hope...they believe there really is a heaven and its truth I don't see it as truth..I just HOPE it is..and I wont care if it's not..like I said i'll be dead and I wont know


This is true..the only forgivness is from within yourself and yourself alone...this is why I gave up going to confessions...I didn't think it was right to tell some priest my sins..when I can deal with them myself...after all arent we ALL equal??? huh? Speaking on behalf oft the christian folk...they believe that only God can forgive...its engraved into their heads...its only a hope and a beliefs and nothing more...they don't care as to WHY???


See you have a point...we DON'T KNOW YET...we wont know ever
I made a thread on this a lil while back titled In the beginning..what if?? what if things where scientifically explainable??would there be religion??? a lot of religious folks will disregard this...they see it all dont by magic of a God...a lot will refuse to believe we did in fact evolve.....


He is not coming from the wrong end..he is clearly speaking his mind on the subject...he has stated a few things that has been discussed before...WHY?? Why do we believe this and that?? nothing wrong with what he has just said...we are all not christian phyltre..a lot of us will ask questions like WHY?? its only natural

Here is why I think he is coming from the wrong end:

He is not asking why new religions have sprung up with these beliefs. He is asking why people who hold traditional religions do not believe more in the sort of philosophy he gave.

Of course, that question answers itself. People who have a developed idea of spirituality generally get it from a religious text (whichever one!), and not many religious texts are going to tell you that there is no afterlife. So, these people are going to believe there is an afterlife because the texts say so.

All I am saying is, people do not hold the kid of beliefs that he espouses because they are non-traditional beliefs....and religious people tend to hold to one of the traditional religion.s It's as simple as that.

Maybe I should have asked what process people in a traditional religion might be expected to follow to come to these conclusions.

I'm looking for answers to logical questions here. The only religions there are, are traditional. Ive talked to "New Age" people, and i would not necessarily classify them as a religion. I'm not asking why you dont believe what i say, I'm asking why you believe your religion.

I've been Catholic, Christian, a "hebrew" religion (pretty much judaism), back to Christian, Involved with a cult, then back to Christian all before i was 15. After all that mess i decided to look for what my parents were trying to find. Since then ive studied hinduism taoism, buddahism, and have looked into the torah, and even read a little of the quran(sp?)

What ive found is that the older religions are more towards self discipline, respect, learning (enlightenment), and meditation. while traditional religions are about faith, belief, and ultimately fear (i hate putting that word into context with religion, its just been my experience) But they all share one common ground. The belief in a higher being. I want to know why.

I want to know why after thousands of years on this planet why people dont realise the potential of the self. Why after science has shown whats in the brain, that people dont realise that chemicals and neurons cant actually hold a thought, there is something else going on in there that we use everyday and dont understand at all, the simple fact that I'm able to think, hold memories and make new ones shows that there is more to the human than meets the eye. How much memory can a mind hold? What other potential is there? Is the reason for being here to figure that out? To know that whatever we are, because we have a mind we are not lesser than any other being or entity? Or is it just so we can believe less in that regard?

The latter seems like a waste. I'm trying to grasp that concept.

Simply Questioning. Its in our nature (or so it seems).

UA I can't say i have a label or a 'philosophy" i just let life show me the mysteries of life through living mine, It serves me , in the person I decide and define, its by my accrued wisdom my experiences, logic, etc,.. Seeing what works let go of what doesn't, religon wouldn't serve me I'm a leader a pioneer and I have the heart of an advocate, i can't be contained and oppressed and limited by dogma,It goes against everything I am naturally I have found everything I need I already am....hope this helps I do beleive that its a natural progression to outgrow the need for 'gods....Namaste sheri

My belief in a higher entity does not change what I am and am not capable of.

One of the things that bothers me about the "New Age" type (and I'm not trying to be negative at all here) is that sometimes, I wonder if they don't think God exists, or if they don't want God to exist. That's not directed at anyone in this thread, it's just why I'm wary of that sort of thing.

Awsome post UA, and great questions!! Your belief system mirrors mine very closely.


Most people are caught up in the illusion of seperation. They cant fathom a God that literraly IS everything.They see the idea of them being God as blasphemous. The idea of a God seperate from his creation is fundamental to most current judeo-christian-islamic religons.



I dont believe this is a matter of a NEED to believe anything. You must understand where this belief arose in the first place. Origianlly most religons taught that everything was God. Then along came powerful rulers, that were greedy, and controlled religon, and then changed the ideology to one of a seperate God. The idea of a 'Greater being', and a 'less-than being' suited the selfish needs of powerful egotistical monarchs quite well. This belief of domination-submission was just carried on from then on. And thus the illsuion of divine seperation was entrenched in peoples minds even further.




Again, one must look at where this belief came from. Most people believed in reincarnation up until 545AD when.....



http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-pope.htm

The need to believe in a greater single entity, was born out of the idea that God had needs, and needed his creation to do things for him. His creation needed him, as much as he needed it.

The ironic thing is Divinity has no needs and no wants by its very definition. Divinity lacks nothing. Therefore if you believe all of creation to be part of the the divine, nothing needs anything. All is perfect as it is. The problem is when people get caught up in illusions, ones that have been taught and perpetuated thaousands of years, they have a really hard time seeing the greater truth.

Venom great wisdom in your post i see you get it Namaste sheri

Phytre, A child eventually outgrows his parents why wouldn't one out grow the need for God", In a interdependent relationship one 'gets' they are all of it, its in the dependent relationship you see yourself as lacking............

Need is non-existent in the Universe. One needs something only if one requires a particular result. The Universe does not require a particular result. The universe is the result.

Need is likewise non-existent in the mind of God. God would need something only if God required a particular result. God is that which produces all results.

If God needed something to produce a result, where would God get it? There is nothing outside of God. God is All That Is, All That Was, and All That Will Ever Be. There is nothing that is, that is not God.


Source: Communion with God, pg.28

I agree. I think of God as a perfect energy source where all things originate, and we as humans receive and convert that energy in a positive way or negative way.

wow Arty it seems you are broadening your horizions

Actually, I've thought this way for a long time. I may stick up for religions occasionally because they tend to see God this way also, but they believe in all the myths associated, which I don't.

Aw so true on the religious.... i didn't know you were open minded well its good to know...

thanks sheri. Did my past posts seem close-minded?

NO NO NO I just thought you were religious at least somewhat, Please i wouldn't want anyone to think i was mocking them....
Off topic: .By the way are you in a band???Vocals, keyboards or guitar????

Oh no BM did it I'm not in a full-time band now because I'm focusing on recording and production but I still get out. I play a mean guitar and sing.

I'll PM you

Is something going on between you too?

The 'need' is a human condition. It is as old as man. Man began to 'think' and when he 'thought' ....self...the human condition began. As man began to think ...self.. he also began to think...beyond self...

...it is primordial...it is eternally primordial.


When mans thoughts of self went beyond thoughts of self, man understood that interacting with the other selves of man was not easily done...jealousy wrought murder and murder wrought banishment and banishment wrought punishment...when men began to murder and do all sorts of wicked things to one another, some of the deeds men perpetrated on each other were deemed by others to be so 'evil' that death alone could not begin to be punishment enough. Mans thoughts then went ...way beyond self...beyond death...

I wouldn't do that to you
Has to do with rogues

I'm sorry. Did I insinuate that? It was not my intention to do so.

Everyone is capable of anything that you put your mind to. Especially if you realise your own limitations and do something to change them. Thats not aimed at you phyltre, i dont know you from my neighbor that lives two doors down. Just my thought on the matter of capability.

Venomshocker, you hit the nail on the head. I knew if you decided to post here that it would be a great read and an eye opener. I think I noticed that we had some of the same beliefs way back when we were discussing big bang theories.

God is the platform of life, It is all that there is. We just happen to be conscious, living, breathing, free-willed parts of god. Indeed this has been my take on god for many years now.

The article you quoted from was interesting, i havent read that before, It explains alot. A friend suggested that i read Communion with God, I think that may be the next book i pick up. Thanks for the excerpt.


Thank you for that Sheri, Its good to know that there are others that share the thoughts i have had. Especially outgrowing the need for 'gods'. Organised religion in my mind has gone way out of its intended role in society. Once money and power got intwined with it, it has been an uphill battle for anyone who believes differently.

Few. I thought you were cheating on me.

Zero, arty, sherri, we have a chatroom for this kind of slow chatting
the link is at the top right of any forum page

NO NO NO Zero, just mutual interest in music.

Thankyou for your kind words UA i find your perspective very interesting and if i may plug the CWG books read them all they are awesome and very intune with your philosphy i think there is 6 or 7 of them right Venom?????

UA you are so right Its been taken else where, forgive our rudeness....

blame me will ya??? Well no didn't did pm Sheri

BTW Sheri,Arty & Zero UA is right...get a room lol

God only produces all results to those that believe.....but what happen if you broaden your minds to search further and seek more answers.....Science has prooved a lot more than the bible itself IMO...and to top it all off it makes more sense

People that follow their bible will believe whatever they read and are told to believe

If you are a strong person (not directed at you Venom) and believe in yourself...then why must one need a bible to help guide you??

Now I am not a religious man and I have enjoyed reading these posts, but in my Opnion what people have missed here is a very simple word, and that is CONTROL Venom highlighted on it when mentioned powerfull people bending relgion to there own need.

now if you look at society

The totality of social relationships among humans.

A group of humans broadly distinguished from other groups by mutual interests, participation in characteristic relationships, shared institutions, and a common culture.

The institutions and culture of a distinct self-perpetuating group.

An organization or association of persons engaged in a common profession, activity, or interest: a folklore society; a society of bird watchers.

I think we would all agree apart form the anachists among us, that society is needed in mankinds general day to day. It is what defines us and let us develop and evolve as a species.

would it not be reasonable to suggest the idea that the idea of religion has been hijacked for want of a better term by people in power to control society. I know I am talking broadly and don't want to offend anyone but if it was popularised by the Catholic church for example that god was within you and you could commune with him through your own self.

Then what use would the church be, peopel wouldn't need to go to there local church to commune with god, they could just stay at home. but this doesn't promote society.

Plaese tell me what you think, i'm a lil rusty with regards these posts I'm just getting used to them

I disagree. Primordial beings have a greater sense of unity than people in general do now. There sense of 'self' included all those that were near them and their enviroment. Their definition of self was much broader in scope and spectrum than our current modern ideas of self.

Self included the group of people they were with, because with that group much more could be achieved. Sustenance was easier to achieve, and people looked out for each other, mutual helping one another. What benefited the imediate 'self' also benefited the group and thus the self included the group, and by extension everything else.

It is only through recent more modernization that the concept of all being the self has dwindeled rapidly. No longer are groups and tribes of people working in close contact together supporting each other for sustenance. With population booms, populations become so large, that you become 'just another' person, instead of being an integral part of a tribal like unit. There was no 'need' in primal man because everyone lived in an enviroment of abundance. There was plenty of food. Need arose when certain men wanted more than what was necessary and began taking it from others, and forcing others to do so also through war. This is how the human condition rose, and powerful men hijacked religons in order to suit their own egotistical, greedy needs to accumulate more than even they needed.

The thing is even now there is no real 'need' because there is enough sustenance in the world. 'Need' has been artifically injected into peoples minds. The universe holds enough room, and resources for everyone to live in abundance.



Society can function without religon and church. There are other structures and methods to promote society. There is government, technology, education, science and much more.

I could see how that would give early man the impression of punishment, even after death. I dont see how the concept has survived. Other than fear, and the promotion of it. There is no more reason to believe that any punishment awaits you upon death than there is to believe that there is anything after death at all.

And what of redemption? what has compelled man to believe that rewards wait after death?

This I don't know...I mean you hear them call God the all forgiving...but they condradict that by saying we will all be judged....I ask why be judged...if God is all knowing and all forgiving he dont need to judge us or punish us..after all he is all forgiving right?

I think for me its all about how people label things for example I firmly believe in evolution in the Darwinian sense and that god did not create man or the universe or anything else and is sole the out come of a social/political need that is emergent in any sentient society. whether this is a biological entity i.e. in the genes ( the God gene) or one of cultural necessity I don't know but a construct of mind non the less. But I cant ague that this is not a magic and wondrous thing life is amazing in all senses as are many other things including its hotly debated origins no one is disputing that but I think it boils down to how you label it if you want to take that first spark that started life on this planet and call it god and create a religion apon it or give it a name , a purpose a reason for being then so be it for me its just chemistry its needs no reason or perpose it just is as is

The idea of life after death again is subject to the same lables in some sense you do live on your atoms and constituent parts are returned to the earth so what makes up you isn't really ever destroyed its just changed iand reused in perfectly natural process . Again some may label this the workings of god others simple biological cycles the same for the big bang its just labels , tags attached to a process not fully understood. us humans need order explanations and reasons for being its the binding force in society and a means to structure our existence religion offers us a moral framework and an easy pill to swallow and requires no real understanding or evidence of the world around us

For me its like this

From dust came the Earth from the Earth came Man from Man came God

( obveously not a simple as that but i feel the science involved would make this post even longer than it is )

The whole system of reward/punishement is what I believe to be a feeble approach at describing the inherent law of nature ie. cause and effect.

If you think about the reward/punishment system it is allready built into the universe through the mechanism of cause and effect. Every action you take has an outcome. Either something you do works for you given it is waht you wish to do seek or have or it dosent. It's like karma. There is NO NEED for an external entity to re-dictate the consequences of you actions and redefine the laws of cause and effect after everything is done!

Redemption and things like Heaven and Hell were put in by people to control people. By telling individuals God wants you to do this, and he will reward you for it, certain powerfull rulers could control people to do their bidding. Punishment can be just as much a control mechanism as rewardment. And if you COMBINE the two, you can control people quite easy.

I was really talking about times such as the dark ages when these things didn't exist in a any usefull form, This is when Religion controlled Governement, technology, education and science.

G

I think that people need spirituality, religion, because I believe they all have spirits, but I think you are so very on target with the rest, at least in how lack of loyalty and identification is causing chaos across the planet now. For all of modern globalization, the averge people in the nations involved in it at doing with less while the wealthy who do not identify the working class of any nation as being a part of themselves just keep piling up more paper profit and hoarding of resources to themselves.

In can be seen in the micro level in the West also, where as many no long identify their immediate or extended families as being more of themself. Spouses and relatives are just other individuals and everything is more "yours" and "mine" then it is "ours" in their thoughts and the way they live their lives now.

I agreed, that it has been scientifically proven that prolonged and continous stress is very bad for individuals and for civilizations.
An agreed upon system of ethics and morality is nessesary to provide security, order, and cooperation. Without it there is no civilization.

It was not that long ago that most of the world could not read. Today even in the western world there are many who though they can read, do not read very well or understand what they are reading. Churches, synagogues, and other religious centers have always been schools of ethics and morality where the people were read to and taught the meanings of these concepts.

If it is very intellectually elitist to think that just because one might be able to learn and understand some things on one's own that everyone is equally capable. If that were true then everyone could just be handed books on every subject and all known knowledge could be self taught. Teachers and teaching would be completely obsolete.

There has been a lot of talk here in the USA by some who are furious with the poor results the people are getting from the public school system in return for all the tax dollars poured into it. Some want to get rid of the public school system all together. I personaly think this is very cruel, self centered thinking and would be very destructive to the nation if carried out. They cannot seem to grasp that what affects the whole affects the individual as well.

I think the same types of thinking also apply to churches and relgions, our main educational centers for ethics and morality. While many would be just fine without them and can home school, there would be many more who would go without virtually any education in these areas and the result would probably be even more horrible than in disbanding public school education for the obvious reason that those using them now are those who likely need them the most.

I do not think the correct answer to either situation is to go backwards towards nothing and every man for himself, but to move forwards towards improvement.

Ehtics and morality need not be taught, they are inherent within humans. Its precisely this teachiong of morality and ethics and it variations that causes so many problems in the world.

It is only natural for you to do what is in your ultimate best interest. And ultimately everything that is in your ultimate best interest is also in the ultimate best interest of everyone else!

This is the only moral and ethical standard to live by, and it is completely natural.

Let me expand on this with "the golden rule". Treat others as you would treat yourself. It only makes logical natural sense that you would treat other with kindness and think about them in kind ways. For when is it in your ulitmate best interest not to do so??? To do otherwise would be un-natural in that such practices are of no benefit to you and as such are unnecessary.

Very well said venom I agree basd on personal experince its natural to do whats best, we are taught lots of things that are incorrect and have to be sure we aren't just parroting some system????namaste sheri