but your arguing over the mechanics of teh physical world all of which are under teh power of god and could be changed.

if your god you can set anything up, nothing dictates what is and isnt possible.

I am not arguing over anything Desk, I simply asked you a two part question and all I did was state that I don't think (key word was think) God creats the pain....All I am trying to imagine is if this world had no suffering...and no diseases...what would it do to the population? and would peoples views on God change much?

My own thoughts are........the world would become all the more populated than it is now....and as for changing peoples vies I don't think it would

My wishes if I could make 3 wishes..they would be...No more sickness/pain/suffering & diseases or disabilities of any sort ever again

Rain and clean water to third world countries (hmm another good question to God is WHY third world countries)

Finially for my loved ones to live long happy lives

PS just incase you think I am religious Desk...BM is NOT

There's one way to be rid of an over-populated planet though - natural disasters, accidents (meaning - instant death), etc., but to drag out a long-term illness is one seriously cruel way to kill someone off. If God(?) has the power to control our population, he's showing nothing but cruelty.

If he put us here, then he must have control over how we leave too.

Suffering is a judgement about pain, one can be in pain and not suffer......to the religous suffering is noble, in the incompletedness of the biblical teachings many ideas get warped and become dysfunctional, this is one and so is Sexuality, becasue of the repression of ones sexual nature ( bible guidance always teaches through the use of fear) we have pedophilia, rape.... Look to the few countrys that embrace sexuality the sexual crime rate will be very low..... Look to the countrys that are afraid of their sexuality and sex crimes are rampant....These statements are observable, Religons again teach its noble and comendable to repress what is in you naturally, one doesn't deny who they are and reach enlightenment, to deny only places something more firmly in place, we can all indentify if you have ever been on a diet, they never work... Denial nevr works it only leads to dysfunctional behavior.......Namaste sheri

Isn't that just as cruel? letting people live for so long then POW wipe them clean out with natural disasters? I know it would be a quick death but it's still cruel...as for accidents...well unfortunately they do happen



I don't like the idea as much as you do T, but I guess thats how it goes...I hate it...and to be honest if I had a loved one die of an illness I don't know if I would blame God or not...I might...then again might not...I have lost a child of my own and I did get angry at God asking WHY WHY...WHY...then I prayed so so hard and begged to be granted another child and I got my wish

I'm so sorry to read about your child, BM.

I'm not saying that any way is a GOOD way, but there are ways that can limit the suffering. I don't blame God(?) for any of it; purely because I don't believe in him. But assuming that he does control our existence, he doesn't show the "loving, caring" side that the religious speak so highly about.

I can't comprehend the dismissal of such theories on their part. They'll gladly say that he IS the creator and guides us through life. So how does that not include the creation of suffering? Suffering isn't a man-made creation. If it's not man-made, then where did it come from?

Kratos originally posted: "Would you not want to die to get to this great place? I mean you'd still get there being good for a short period of time comapred to someone that lives 100 years. So, why not want to die and get going to your everlasting paradise?"
- The idea that these two questions lead to is an essential non sequitur if there is absolute belief in Heaven.
- What does this imply about human nature and consciousness? I think that's where the fear constructs of religions become evidenced as irrational. If you're afraid to die, then it does not follow the idea of an absolute belief in Heaven--and The Big Three dictate an absolute belief in Heaven, which doesn't seem like an easily reconciliable conflict, to me.

Great topic, Kratos.

We suffer because we are imperfect. When God created adam and eve, there was no suffereing. That is how it was ment to be. I guess some of you have forgotten that. In my opinion, that was God's ideal life for humans. Living for eternity in a paradise world. But instead of controlling them like robots, he wanted to allow them to have free will. And the way us stupid humans decided to use that free will destroyed the perfect world we should be having.

And yes, God knew it would happen. But to stop it would be to control humans and force them to do things. So he's just letting things happen.


All just my opinion.

When a scientist is making an experiment, no outcome of the experiment can be considered a "mistake." It's how the experiment turned out.

And anyway, I have no trouble accepting the evolutionary value of the principle of pain and suffering. Pain is an impulse to keep us from hurting ourselves/knowing when we take damage; in a paradise world we wouldn't need that, but in a dangerous one such as ours we would. I've already explained why I think we're here on this world versus paradise, so I think it makes sense. Why is the idea of pain and suffering so offensive? Just because it hurts? That's a very subjective definition, in my opinion. Why would this world be tailored to us?

No truth to that Zero, this is a 'god' of preferences and conditions..... investigate this for yourself come up with your own ideas of things, You are quoting passed down knowledge, anothers opinion, thats not thinking, Ask yourself if you really have a choice would you actually choose to beleive this as the diety you would emulate.......Namaste sheri

Good question Kratos, somthing that I have thought about myself.

I wouldn't mind dying right now. Someone come kill me.

I hope you're joking... right, scoob?

To me, this question is like asking the competitors in a race why they don't just dispense with all the silliness on the track and just start things at the finish line. since they're in such a hurry to get there.

You seem to be very narrow minded here- Christians agree that God created all- including pain and suffering but you seem very ignorant with the fact that everything has an opposite....Sure theres pain- but you know what? We also have pleasure. What is your point exactly? The contrast of this earth is amazing- theres hot and cold...good and bad...pain and pleasure. As i said before one could be miserable in this life and the next (with such thinking) or they can take this life as it is and hope for the next life which is a place of pure bliss...Our world isnt perfect- we're here on one of many journeys- if heaven exists thats where all is perfect...the world you so yearn for...the world that oh you so deserve.

Actuall T Aids is man-made....ciggys, fastfood, and drink are man made and through time they cause death (not all the time)

Other suffering -All weapons and bombs are man-made that creat death and suffering

In general though...its only natural for someone who does believe in God to blame him for the suffering

Hello Kratos. This reason can be found in the parable of the talents. But I'll make it easier to understand. Salvation is like money, if you don't invest it, you'll lose it. If you sit on it, you die and it goes to someone else. In otherwords, we as Christians have a purpose to recall those 'lost sheep' of the world. We are not on earth for our own purposes anymore, Adam and Eve screwed that up. We are now on earth for God's reasons and for the showing of love to others that God may be glorified. In an even simpler explanation, we do not live for ourselves, but for others. God bless

I can't believe no one's used this response yet. Since they haven't - I will:

Paul addresses this exact same question in Romans (or is it Acts, one of them ).

He states that while it is far FAR better for him to die and go to heaven, it is much more necessary for him to be on Earth. For on Earth, his ministry can reach other people, to evangelize to other people, and thus more people will come to know God.

For the Christian believer, it would be much better to die. But from a godly perspective, we ARE needed on this Earth to spread the gospel of Jesus.

That said, there are Christians who are in some manner stuck in this world, and feel a need to finish their task before dying - "oh Lord, i want to get married before I die", "Oh Lord, I want to earn a million bucks before I die", "Oh Lord, I want to travel and see the world before I die".

These are not necessarily bad things. The world is an enjoyable place. However, the Christian's home is in heaven. They are but strangers in this world. Aliens if you will.

To conclude - it is much MUCH better to be in heaven. But much more necessary to be here on Earth.

Regards, PA

...And then we grew up and realized that the story of Adam and Eve was just a symbolic fable itself about what could happen if we don't obey God, a story to be read to little children, later on, thousands of years later, misunderstood to be literal truth.

And it's supposed to be the Christians who are intolerant of other people's views

On this at least, we can agree

There's more than just asking forgiveness. Repentance is required. And that means not just saying sorry, but turning around, doing a complete 180 degree turn, and actively trying not to do that again.

Ah the good ol' "I can't help it routine". You know, criminals use that excuse all the time - oh, it wasn't me *boo hoo* it was my parents. And you know what? The Law laughs in their face most of the time. Though it sometimes works and the Law lets them off. God on the other hand is different. You can't pull the wool over His eyes, the way you can a court of Law.

No offense, but one definition of religion is Belief in Higher Powers. Do you not believe in God? Then you are religious

I do see what point you are trying to make though - you are not religious in the sense of following a text or an organization.

That is of course assuming that the reason for us living on this Earth is to be happy (not that being happy is wrong, just that, in my opinion, it's not the sole reason for our being)

Again, this is making the assumption that every natural disaster is a direct result of God reaching out His hand and saying, yeah, let's kill these guys today.

It's just not that simple.

Regards, PA

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm NOPE .....I can't call myself relgious PA cuz 1. I don't follow a religion...nor the bible and I dont call the God in which I believe the christian God...to be religious you have to follow your faith...guess what..BM has no religious faith


Explain how its not PA??? If you believe God is the soul creater of the heavens and the earth then he created them ALL...yes I said ALL PA that includes the weather which leads to natural disasters... You most likely think he only created whats nice and peacful and ohh so pretty

I point you now to the dictionary - Religion: Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.. An organized religion IS NOT NECESSARY to be religious.

Hell, the last dictionary definition - A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion, implies God is not even necessary to be religious - you can religiously train for the Olympics, or even be religious about eating Corn Flakes for breakfast.

I think, BM, that you are confusing the actual meaning of words with the contemporary and narrow field of popular meanings.

As I said, I do take your meaning - as in a follower of a religious organization! But it is fallacy to equate religion to an organization. I know that was the meaning you were taking, I was just pointing out that it is not necessarily the only definition available.

God creates the world. The world works according to the principles set out by God. Natural disasters occur. This is a part of that creation. However, they are a product of the system and not necessarily a specific punishment against a group for their actions, or indeed aimed at anyone. It's just the way of the world.

Though to be fair, I have commented many times (see my posts contrasting natural suffering vs human inflicted suffering for more details) that we as humans do not really know why natural disasters happen.

I just tend to believe (and this is personal opinion, not supported or denied in any meaningful way through the Bible) that these things just happen naturally. That God is not necessarily a puppet master pulling our strings and all the while laughing at our pain.

Regards, PA

PA again I aint religious...I cant call myself religious end of story...I used to be but not anymore I have only a belief in God and I dont even say real prayers that are taught in the bible or church...I make my own up simple as that...I know what and who I am and I'll be the judge here not you or anyone like you
I never said God was pulling the strings nor did I say he laughs at our pain...I did say he created the earth and all that goes within it...simple but not fact

I was talking with a padre a lil while ago not sure what denomination., and she was on about forgivness... you know renouncing your sinds before god so you are sin free for when you go to heaven. If you do this you can get in , if you don't you can't get in.

Now I don't belive in God how ever I have been known to be wrong on somthings before... and what she said worried me a bit. She said cause I din't belive I would go to hell. Now I felt this was a lil unfair, I mean the rapist murderer and robber can go to heaven if they renounce there sins, but lil old me that made a mistake has to spend eternity in firey damnation, and if that is the case that you can unload your sinds proir to moving on . why be good at all , live life as you wish then become sin free later on down the road.


what do you think ???

If you know you did something wrong and you regret it later, and take steps to rectify the mistake if possible, then that works for me.

Somtimes you can't undo things you have done, i'm sure Hitler couldn't have done anything with regards the terrible things he did, wether he regretted it or not. We all regret things we have done wrong when we get caught.

We dont regret when we make mistakes...we learn from them to make things right in the future

And when someone says sorry after they are caught...they aint saying sorry for what they had done wrong...they are only sorry they where caught

I think this is easier for some to understand in the explanation of the Buddhist.
Hell is what we form for ourselves through desires of the self.

Forgiveness or/and enlightenment comes from regret or/and rejection of past thoughts and actions that were selfcentered, selfish, destructive to the whole.

It is about the state of the spirit consciousness that each of us have.

Hell isnt literally like a fiery pit or anything its a seperation from God...if you dont know of or believe in a God here in this life- then why are you expecting to see him in the next? God gives opportunities for all- and if you dont want him in your life- then thats fine by him.
He wont be cruel to torture anyone- a person in hell will just cease to exist with God in heaven. A believer that commits a horrible crime and renounces their sin doesnt necessarily mean a ticket to heaven. As i said if someone is evil enough to commit such a crime as murder or rape- then theyre not nice enough to be truely sorry and God see's it- a person could pretend to be sorry and pray yet God wont be fooled. It was said its better to pray with your heart and not say anything- than to pray with words that mean nothing.

so going back to my original question....is it fair that the mass murderer gets into heaven cause he has renounced his sins and I don't becuase of....closed mindedness


Cute kid by the way


Ok see what you mean. I guess i will just have to wait and see what happens...lucky i'm a good boy

I know its impossible to undo everything. But if you truly regret(not regretting you get caught), then you should remedy the situation by trying to be a better person. Change bad habits, help family and friends in times of need. It takes effort to do this. If we accept that life is just pain and mistakes then that is all we will see.

Intresting post ya have there ramster

There is a big difference in praying to God for forgivness and actually meaning it....when you pour your heart into a prayer he listens (IMO) but when you dont he wont

I agree. If you can give up your pride for that moment and be open to receive answers, the answers will present themselves. You have to be in the mind-set though to receive them, give up your ego.

Yeah when i pray i really dig deep into my heart and if i feel that my prayer is false or forced i simply stop...I dont want to pray unless it comes from the heart.

Per Christian belief.....yes but get this if you slander his name (God) there is no pardon for that.

BTW: Welcome Mrreliable to the UM forum.

So it really is just an illusory place made up by religious leaders to keep us, the sheep in line. "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to create Him."

Exactly...pride plays a huge part in it...but it takes a lot to push it aside and once you have done that..you are in with a chance


Ohh absolutely....I have prayed for many a thing before and never really put my heart into it...then when I lost my 1st child...I did and I never gave up...I must have prayed for hours on end...then I had my prayers answered....and thats not the 1st time either



If I where a non believer I'd say YES..people did create him..they created him becasue they couldnt find the answer as to how we all got here and who created the earth so someone must have created this God and claimed him to be all powerful and almighty and all of this is the work of his magic...but like I said my belief in God and in heaven is only hope thats all I have

^^^
You are certainly allowed your beliefs. But many believers use their religion to call for others to be killed. It has happened throughout history and continues today.

Its sad cause im sure somewhere...somehow religion could have worked out for the better of humanity- religions been abused so much that its value has decreased to so little nowadays- but that should never alter ones faith....religions aside- that theres a God up there...a God of love and peace...we will all find out when our time comes....or not (if hes not real).

No. It was obviously an attempt to explain in a way the people there and at that time could understand.
There are too many simularities between the core of Christianity and the core of Buddhism to just blow off either one as something invented just to control people when the audiences to the messages came from such widely divergent backgrounds.

^^^
I disagree. The similarities are nothing more than a similar solution to a similar problem. Controlling mortal masses.

(Separate question) Weren't Adam and Eve some kind of metaphor?

Which leads me to:


But if you already know how the experiment will turn out, why put yourself through it just to have the result on record?

Zero: Why did God(?) create us? If he didn't want to have this "control" over us (I know this was your opinion), but knew that, without control, his plans wouldn't turn out, why did he bother? It's like putting two hamsters in a cage together and watching them fight each other to death - you could prevent it by separating them (controlling of some sort), or not putting them together in the first place.


It's already been mentioned before but, what about the children who got sick (or were born sick) and have lived with it for the majority of their lives, and died as a result? Where was their pleasure?

Or do you mean: When one person suffers, another is receiving the pleasure?

Either way, it's an unfair layout.


Uh-huh, but they all came from the tools that God(?) gave us on Earth in the first place (a man-made product was originally built from all things natural). Not to mention the brain that he provided us with to use in whichever way we saw fit - that, in the end, has resulted in suffering and death.


Hey, it's not my excuse. I'm just observing where, I believe, a Christian is very selective within their beliefs (maybe not all, but many).

We created our own laws on Earth - something I understand God(?) gave us the free will to do?

Don't get me wrong with the following. It's just an idea, okay: If God(?) created us, the things on Earth - and with that; came our suffering - then who's to say that he didn't give someone that 'authority challenging' side in their brain that landed them in court in the first place? Who's to say that the mental disorder that someone may possess isn't a result of God(?)?

That is my point. Not my belief.


I think the dictionary's definition is way off the mark.

I'm with you, BM. Even I believe that there could be 'something', but as to what? I have no idea. I don't follow any particular religion - none at all, even - but I'm open-minded enough to believe that there is something awaiting us after death.

I don't class myself to be religious in any way (in regard to a creator).

I go with the second definition, even though, technically, they are only said as a 'figure of speech'.

Why does anyone have children if they do not plan to control every single aspect of their lives from birth?
Since the world is not perfect, why do they have children that they know will suffer?

A lot of questions can be answered by looking at parent and child dynamics.
Imagine primitive man with his morality, ethics, and understanding suddenly being given the powerful tech that we posses today and the training to use it.

Exactly!


So because I don't believe; I'll get dumped in a cloud where I am denied contact with God(?)? Erm ... so either way, I'll still be non-the-wiser as to his existence. I can either think to myself "Okay, I don't see him anywhere. I was right!" OR "Oops! My Bad!"


We'll ALL find out? Even the ones on the separate cloud because we didn't believe?

Because now those who love God, actualy LOVE God. There's a difference. He'd be forcing us to love him if he didn't let things happen.

But a parent does have a degree of control. There is nothing to say that their kid will grow up to be exactly as the parent aimed, but they can do their best to teach them. What did God(?) PERSONALLY teach us? So far, nothing! He (supposedly) created us, then left us to it while guessing on his existence. It's like giving birth, then dumping your kid in the middle of the jungle to find their own way to a home they're NOT SURE they even have.

How does anyone know if their kid is going to suffer? Okay, bringing them into an unstable home, etc. there is going to be a risk of that, but it's never certain. Kids can suffer no matter where they live, the area they were brought-up in, the people they grew up with, never mind the world as a whole that we live in. But still, I don't think that anyone would have kids if they KNEW FOR SURE they were going to suffer but, again, unless you're told before birth that you're kid will be born with ... (whatever) and it will be the cause of it's long-term suffering, nobody can give a 100% guarantee that their child will be happy and safe. It's the world we live in. We are meant to reproduce - another part of our design.

you have clearly missed the point of the highlighted concept that pain is not necessary if your have power over everything.

all i have heard is nonsense about how it is needed becuase of "this mechanism" or to achieve "that outcome".

if you lack the ability to study concepts on a grand scale then fair enough just continue as you are.

what ever result pain and suffering achieve or what ever circumstance they are created out of, teh creator of both is god and he is ultimately responsible.

you are thinking too small, think bigger

Erm ... who are you talking to, DL?

anyone and everyone that is putting justification of pain/suffering as some kind of "protection" or some "other part of the deal"of the benefit of free will.

Free anything isn't even appliable within the context of "god' this is a 'god' of conditons and needs, you aren't coming ointo this of "your own free will" upon deeper investigation this will become observable, a second look if you will.....

Then explain why if you do not believe in him you spend eternity in where was it.....oh it's called hell.

That is love and free will?