I was talking with my cousin today on the afterlife (as he is pretty hard into religion, roman christian) and this question hit me and when I asked him and he shrugged it off and hit me instead, telling me to not make him think anymore...so now I'm going to make you guys think.

If heaven is soooooo great and so for cause you get to go there for the afterlife if you were a good boy or girl, why would you recieve any medical treatment, bother about safety, take care of your self and just care about living?

Would you not want to die to get to this great place? I mean you'd still get there being good for a short period of time comapred to someone that lives 100 years. So, why not want to die and get going to your everlasting paradise?

No, I'm not talking about euthanasia or suicide.

Heaven is a place of HOPE nothing more...no one can prove it does indeed exist Kratos...so to answer your question- as its only hope...and no real evidence to show there is a heaven...people like to be careful

During our time here on earth we like to take care of ourselves in order to continue living...if we all knewe for sure there was such a place like heaven...then its pointless suffering here on earth..everyone would do the beef!!But we all have a purpose to live.
UniversalAbsuridy made a thread that did indeed mention the same thing WHY belief in heaven??? again its all just HOPE...anyone that claims its real and says they kow for a fact its real..is lying

Life is an amazing experience and many dont want to just "let it go". Having a belief in heaven doesnt really degrade life on Earth. God still made the earth and he made it for us- and its a beautiful place- why'd we want to leave in a hurry? Also many dont believe they are truely going to heaven- they dont feel they deserve it lol. So they'd rather feel safer here and staying round for as long as possible rather than facing God on the other side.
Most of us see life as a gift from God...and we should respect that gift and appreciate it.

Would'nt that be like cheating though, because the whole point in christians believing they get to heaven is that they have earned it by living a good life, worshiping god and resisting sin. So to try and cut short your time on earth by refusing medical treatment would not count because you've tried to take the easy way out.

so remember folks if you get cancer its a gift from god
that suffering you experience? also god made.

god bless god for the creation of suffering.

Ohh you're one of those that get something bad happen to them then point to tha lord and yell "darn you!". Please- Gods role is in our next life not this one. We're all going to die- whys it even matter how. Outweigh the good and bads of life- theres a balance of it- so its fair. I've had lotsa bad stuff happen to me and my family- yet i never blame God...I thank him. Im not a whiner im humble. The fact i can hear, see, smell, touch, feel- is a miracle enough and when i die...I die. Whats a little suffering for an eternity of Joy. Why be miserable in one life and the other- when you could be miserable in one- but blissful in the next.

i think youll find that when something bad happenbs to me the last person i blame is god since geting angry at figments of imagination serves litle purpose.

christianity in general claims god is teh creator of everything, hence he created suffering and pain, what a nice chap, and beofre you start ranting about you have to have suffering and pain. the person that created the principle that suffing and pain was part of this greater principle was...yes youve guessed it.....god!

there is no escape from the fact that if you believe god created evrhing he developed teh concept of pain and suffeing and implemented it in a system he designed.

check mate

Then dont speak as a religious person or for a religious person. God is the creator of everything in most religions and yeah he created suffering. Look at how much of the human emotion is triggered when it comes to pain, sorrow, sadness and suffering.
These are all NATURAL aspects of humanity. God also created happyness- would one hate him for that? Theres a fair balance in life- of Good and Bad and thats fair enough. As i said Gods role is much more bigger and important in the next life...I dont dislike God for creating pain- nothing feels more natural than to shed a tear- to have a broken heart- to feel loved- to share a laugh. To me life is exciting good or bad- i'm here for the ride. There's nothing that we cannot handle that God gives us- we are blessed with physical and emotional strength and if you believe in what is natural- pain my friend is one of those things...If there was no pain, im sure you'd blame God for something else negative cause you want everything to be perfect...do you truely deserve that? If so...why?

next time try and tailor you point to counter what i said.

waffling on about "i like god" "pain is natural" etc is to totally miss the point raised in my last post.

your first line of your post alone shows just "how you think" and i must be honest . i weep.

I suggest all of you read a book (yes, not the internet, read a book for once) called "Why bad things happen to good people", by Kushner. He is a Rabbi (OMG, A JEW) who wrote the book to help him deal with his 14 y.o. son dying of progeria. If I personally did believe I were guaranteed heaven, really believed, I, too would refuse medical treatment, die and go there. Since I don't buy all that b.s., I choose to enjoy life.

For those of you that do not know what "Progeria" is

Hutchinson-Gilford Progeria Syndrome is an extremely rare genetic disease that accelerates the aging process to about seven times the normal rate. Because of this accelerated aging, a child of ten years will have similar respiratory, cardiovascular, and arthritic conditions that a 70-year-old would have.

Progeria affects between 1 in 4 million (estimated actual) and 1 in 8 million (reported) children, with a total reported incidence of just over 100 in the century since it's been identified. There are currently between 30 and 40 known cases worldwide of Progeria. Children from all races and cultures around the world have been affected. Physical features of Progeria children include dwarfism, wrinkled/aged-looking skin, baldness, and a pinched nose. Mental growth is equivalent to other children of the same age. Most children with Progeria don't live beyond their early teenage years, though one or two have lived to their early 20s.

Progeria

thanks, zandy. I have seen it on talk shows so much, I figured most would have heard of it. but it is a horrible disease, and inspired Kushner's book. btw, it is a "general" book, not written from a "Jewish" p.o.v.

That condition was on channel 4's Bodyshock a couple of weeks ago, it was called the 80 year old children I think. Terrible thing to happen to anyone

believe it or not i did actually start reading that book.

it is very badly reasoned (imo) so i stopped reading it.

it is a terrible case of fuzzy thinking

Does anyone remember that Television evangelist Reverend Oral Roberts, campaign begging for 1 million dollars from his followers because he had received a message from god that if he failed to get that money god said he was going to take Oral home?

I saw the broadcast. That quivering southern accent, those worried eyes, pleading into the camera to save him from heaven by buying off god. Not only did he make his mark, but one anonymous millionaire donated the million shortly after the campaign began. What a relief!

Perhaps many are reticent about departure for that long afforded promise because they aren't quite certain it's there, or perhaps they fear they may be bound for the southern Zip code.

I don't understand how or why evolution created us, beings able to want to die and go on to the afterlife. I thought it was all about survival O_o....

Too many people kill themselves.

If sex is really so great why don't people accept pedophilia and want kids to start having sex from birth on? If driving a car is so much fun, why don't we let children drive as soon as their feet can reach the pedals or design smaller cars for them to use on the highways.

The answer is obvious that they are not matured or ready for it.

There is purpose in life and purpose in growing and learning.

Ok its not everyday I take the christians part but here I go....Desk that was a lil too far over the line

You are the one doing the ranting.
The only check mate you keep achieving is on on yourself.

I do not know of any religion or set of spiritual beliefs that does not acknowledge that life is about growing, learning, and evolving in one shape or another.

But BM didn't God create everything under the sun?

Ok ramster spoke from the heart but he wasnt ignorant....you where Desk....every thought of using a lil diplomacy in your posts..now and again (meaning ok not all the time) but geeeshh man you go too far sometimes cool it and have a drink

I do agree with you here.

TY


Well for those of us that believed he did...think so yes..but guess what Zandore...that don't make it so....I have no proof he created anything really

too far? not a chance.

and what is this "speaking from the heart" rubbish.

the fact god creates cancer and all unpleasent things in the world is not my claim it is the christians claims, i am merely highlighting it for what jumped up nonsesne it is.

regarding my diplomacy, these "believers" opinions on how the world works is such without credit that to think i have to sensatively tip toe around them is to afford them credability i am unwilling to give

i fear i am already wasting my time as few will understand teh principel of god creating pain and suffering as a proof of his own either helplessness or non loving nature.

You're quite rude. And you're damn right I'll be the one to call you out. Another's opinion is not rubbish. Why do you call it so? To belittle others to make yourself feel better? I suggest you try being a bit more mature when talking to others.

sadly yes some peopels opinions are rubbish.

neo nazis for one and people who think they know better about treating serious illnesses in teh non conventional way. either way society picks up the bill.

and in those cases i would certainly not "dilly dally" round giving people their respect for believing in such filth.

it is not a question of maturity or sensitivity,my fellow colleagues ccritisice me for even talking to people on here such is their conviction of what deluded nonsense it is.

i on the other hand at least try and inform people what they have taken a wrong turn, but alas if you disagree and am convinced you are correct then long may you continue as you are far easier to spot in society and written off accordingly.

All growth, accumulation of knowledge, evolvement is ultimately meaningless in any religon where the goal is heaven.

You can do all the growing, evolving and learning u can, but does it do anything for you when ur sittin in heaven for all eternity??? I think not.

Riiiight. So you're a know it all who never takes a wrong turn? I'm far easier to spot in society? What's that suppose to mean? You actualy think you know me?

-cough-

You're just proof that some religious people don't have a monopoly on closedmindedness, is all.

With all due respect, ramster, I don't think the many people whom HAVE suffered would see it that way. Imagine being sick for YEARS - in and out of hospitals every week, being pumped full of medication that makes you yack your guts up 4 times a day, living with the pain of your family and closest friends being able to do absolutely nothing but sit there and watch, endlessly being prodded and stuck by doctors, being in constant pain/discomfort, no longer being capable of doing the things you once loved to do because you don't have the energy, etc., etc. ...

I think I would be thinking "Damn! I would RATHER BE DEAD than (supposedly) live with this!"

Fair enough. It may seem like no time at all compared to the time that you're dead but, what IF there is nothing on the other side? Was it still worth it?

Even IF there is something better that God(?) has prepared for us - I can understand someone coming out wiser/more determined after getting over an illness and living their life to the full, but WHY would God(?) put someone through all this suffering, only to DIE in the end because of it?

I'll stick by this though: IF people seriously believe that God(?) created the world and everything in it, then they should accept that he is to balme for our suffering and stop 'tip-toeing' around the idea!

(That wasn't meant towards you, ramster. It's my general opinion.)

no the difference being is my beliefs are scientifically proveable testable. i actually believe in reality and have the privilage to be able to learn and adopt new ideas principles that are equally as thouroughly tested.

christians and other major religions cannot rationalise why they believe in their certain religion or claim. and any attempt at proving the shakey ground in which religion flourishes is met with such strong resistance that it ceases to be worthwhile.

Everybody here thinks they are so open minded and that this "openmindedness" allows them to see things in a new freshness and that their "special insight" is important and valid.
let me remind you all that the instant a conclusion is drawn no matter how trivial that could be considered as closing ones mind.

however fortunately teh truth and reality doesnt bend to your will. and however special you may feel there are people in this world who are more thourough more practiced and insiightful than you or i could ever imagine being. and these people in majority tell us their findings and as time increases these findings mutually support each other (in general).

Those that have gone looking for answers stand in a stronger position to view our world than some jumped up nobody thinking they have a special unbiased insight into how teh world works.

my beliefs are not my own, i didnt invent them, i didnt choose them, i accepted them baseed upon evidence logic and plausability.


the reality of this forum and indeed this world is that peopel again and again point to closemindedness as a failing with respect to a new claim.

yet no-one possess a truley open mind, as your life is based on more assumptions you would care to admit. and teh process of drawing any conclusion is to close ones mind a little.

I do hope all that have showed such stupidity are young or jobless since in teh real world drawing conclusions when other peoples money is concerned is a necessary skill, and one cannot invest money on wild promises that refute all logical data against it.

perhaps you will prove me wrong and the £1,000,000 and 10 years you invest in mrs random's claim will pay off, i however wont allow her into my office.

your own "openmindedness" will allow you to be taken advantage of many times, as is already occuring now with religion, however i feel teh punishment suits teh crime so i should really stop my attack on illogical nonsense, and allow you to be taken to teh cleaners.

amen

There are time when I too feel as though I have to tred carefully and BM here is an expert on over stepping her mark...but at times when I think about it and think...is it worth the agro?? I don't believe God created the pain and suffering to be honest...but I allow others to have their opinions

If you think its nonsense then say so...As for me I'd just say...thats cobblers in my opinion...no offence ect ect

hmmm me wonders if Desk is from the UK??

If I may add a link to your post Tornado: How much does Jesus love the little Children?

You will need speakers for this one.

Aye! If he's that good to them from ^up there^, it makes me wonder how they'll be treated once they're ^up there^ with him. Nice guy, seriously. He's great!

"And with the good, came evil!"

Desk Light:

Saying "you are wrong and I am right" is being closedminded, in the context of an internet forum. The whole point of a forum is discussion.

You're more than welcome to be irretrievably right, but I doubt people will want you to do it here. Coming into a conversation and calling other people's opinions rubbish isn't okay, because it comes across as insulting.

Insults are not okay.

see the thread "A CALL FROM REASON"


i dont just warp in say your wrong and warp out. i have highlighted the inconsistency of god being teh creator of suffering and pain and being all loving i have yet to hear an acceptable explanation.

and am still waiting.


however your post does highlight something to me that i really should consider to myself, why am i here? i have my beliefs, and they are well founded, i guess if this place is for peopel that are "undecided" or not capable of using logical arguments to make correctly derived conclusions, then it surves me no purpose to stay.

Okay. I will make only one assumption: namely, that you will allow my explanation to exist within the structure of the Bible as I see it. Otherwise, it would be impossible. Now:

The world of God's creation was not meant for people at all. God had a special place set out for mankind, but they screwed that up royally. They had one commandment, and they broke it. But, rather than destroy mankind for their error, and write them off as useless, he sent them into a world more appropriate to their conduct--Earth proper.

Which is where we are. We couldn't play by the rules in a perfect world, so we got kicked into this one. We proved ourselves incapable of the trust God had originally placed in us, we proved ourselves vulnerable to simple deception, and here we are.

but mankind is a creation of god so its failure was designed by god, and if you say we have free will, god created free will, if you say we have to have free will to be free, well thats a concept designed by god.

if you are an omnipotent super being why cant everything be non stop extacy all the time, if god is obeying some rules (no matter how advanced) then he still is confined by principles beyond his control and so why do we not worship the creator of the rules for which god must obey

Cheating? Little babies die all the time, is that fair to a person of 50 years of age that they get into heaven so quickly while they have to live? For cheating, wouldn't then confessing to get into heaven be cheating, because you can commit any sin and just ask for forgiveness and it will be granted to you.

Maybe be an easy way out, but why wouldn't God accept you then into his kingdom of heaven?



Then why do little babies and children die each day and get to go to heaven? Are they mature enough at a couple weeks old, or even 6 years of age?

I hate hearing about lil babies dying so soon it saden me if I could ask God one question it would be WHY them??

And you are right about God the all forgiving person....just ask for forgivness and it shall be granted

Hm. Last things first. Suppose God set up rules for himself? Surely someone onmipotent would be capable of that? It's not necessarily what happened, but surely it's possible.

And the original point--simply because free will is a concept designed by God does not imply that He retains absolute control over it. Or, to be clear, it does not imply that He exercises control over it. Something designed with potential fallibility may or may not exercise it independently of its creator.

Why can't everything be ecstasy all the time? Well, of course I can't answer that absolutely for certain. I'm not sure anyone could. But it makes sense to me that something that just felt ecstasy all the time would hardly provide company in such a huge universe. Biologically, the idea of constant ecstasy is ridiculous--your body adapts and expects more. The term is a relative one, and I am not certain that the term has any meaning to God.

That's exactly the point I've been trying to make. If God(?) created us, then he is at fault for our mistakes - seeing as he gave us free will. It means that he is punishing us for messing up his own design.

i dont find that satisfactory.

if god creates the limits for which he must obey then it doesnt detract from the fact that suffering and pain is his creation and it is implimented in a system he designed (humanity, free will, call it what you will).

he is the sculpture of suffering.

Biblically, God did not design the system we are in for us. He designed it for what was here before us--nonsentient life. That life is quite happy in a system of survival. We are not.

absolutely.

in addition he made it so that to have freewill one must be in the "firing line", and be subject to suffering and pain.

so did god not forsee what was going to occur? did god make a mistake?

there is no escapi from the fact that if god is the creator of everything then power is absolute an suffering and pain is his creation by choice.

he designed and created "man" and set up the rules of the game according to his will. and it includes suffering.

hardly all loving is he

So the point of this would be (you're opinion)? What do you think he is getting out of this? They say there's a reason for everything, right?


EDIT: That is, assuming that the theory of God's(?) creation is correct.

my opinion is that god cannot be all powerful and all loving. since these two conditions would not result in a person suffering pain or suffering

Actually Desk I don't think he created the pain ect....but I often wonder why he lets it happen...that is something we don't know either

Think of this...what if the word had no pain no suffering (this is a 2 part question) would peoples beliefs in God change?
And again if there was nothing like it meaning no diseases ect...then how would that effect the population of the earth if we all lived to be so old?