Well, Malruhn, correct as usual.

Okay, where to start. Albert Pike, I suppose. If you read through the 1300 pages or so of "Morals and Dogma" you will find a few insensitive comments about negroes and other "savages." He was very much a product of his time, growing up in the South when he did. Yet, you will also find a great deal of wisdom about the esoteric religions of the world and Masonry's relationship to those ancient systems. So, like all people, Pike was a mixture of good and bad. Better to take the insensitive comments with a grain of salt, or maybe a chuckle or a cringe, and to move on to the more pertinent comments ... about 1299 pages of them.

That being said, there is no single one guru on Freemasonry or Rosicrucianism out there who can give you the definitive "truth" about Masonry or any other subject. There are many different perspectives and the wisest amongst us are willing to learn from other perspectives.

Now, speaking from a "Rosicrucian" perspective ...

As I've said, my traditional Catholic friend in the Illuminati remains as much a Catholic as he is a member of the Illuminati. Likewise, the Buddhists in the Rosicrucian Order remain just as valid as the Taoists, the Hindus, the Baptists, the Mormons, and the Asatru. Are you willing to go beneath the surface of religions and find the Brotherhood of Light that guides and serves humanity in Light, Life, and Love? It is the exoteric, the outer religions, that today are responsible for the destructive wars, the arguments, the chest-beating, the ego-tripping.

A Catholic mystic such as the Carmelite Nun, St. Teresa of Avila, has more in common with a mystic like Jululidin al-Rumi, than any fundamentalist like Osama bin Ladin has in common with Pat Robertson. The former two would recognize each other as members of the universal brotherhood of light. The latter two would get each other in a choke-hold seconds after meeting. There is a big difference in the two approaches ... and its time that we all saw the difference between the esoteric and exoteric aspects of all religions. That is, if we have any desire for Peace Profound.

For those who insist upon remaining within a Christian context, I recommend reading the great mystic Karl von Eckhartshausen's "THE CLOUD UPON THE SANCTUARY" to learn the difference between the "inner church" and the "outer church," and to learn the importance of opening the "inner sensorium."

Pax deorum,
A frater

Are you calling afro-americans "savages" ? Sounds racist to me.

I told the Mason who signs the key out from us that we snuck into their meeting the other night...I was expecting some good laughs...he actually got kinda pissed...I told him he couldn't use out building anymore....hope I dont get murdered this weekend.

you wont. just stay straped for a couple of weeks but why have you kick them out?

and roscurianman - what do you have to say about the demonic possesion testimony.
and did u just give a public testimony that the illuminati exists?.. outside of my imagination!( )

Demonic possession? Oh please.

The guy should have been given an MMPI (Minnesotta Multiphasic Personality Inventory) to discovery the underlying psychological problem involved. Most likely some offshoot of Schizophrenia.

Don't get me started on all the abuse associated with church-enforced "exorcism." So much for free-will.

The Illuminati exists ... just not in the form you think it does.

---Rosencruez

Uh ... you think? Sanjuro, can you at least pay attention? The topic was racist and insensitive comments. Like it takes an Einstein to figure out that "savages" is a racist comment! Did you catch that I put it in quotes? No.

Any more comments like that and I'll have to break out the sarcasm about people being too dumb to carry on an informed conversation. [Like I should have from the beginning.]

My kingdom for anyone with an IQ above 30!

---R

HA

Stick it to 'em speaker of the house. You should let them back in and then bug the room they use, and use that information you record for blackmail.

Maybe he was possesed by one of the invisible beings of light from the hierarchy.

i say the illuminati is dead... its agenda lives on through groups like the masons, templars, and the PNAC(kindof), and other various occult based gorups(most which you have mentioned). in a russian egg type fashion


i believe demons.. even if it is purely psychological human stuff. demons could be a metaphor, but their energy patterns are distinct. In fact everything could just be a metaphor for gaining higher conscious... but you dont know that, and neither do I. earth(material world of lower vibrations) has been foresaken it seems... and the light of christ lives through us.

if a devine order exists, then it would be stupid to claim that its "tester" doesnt exist or have the possibility to exist.

found this on one of the ads on this website.

And your point is ...

I'm pretty well versed in the first three (two large and the monument). The last three appear to be just added on for posterity's sake. "Oooh, a pentacle that has been co-opted by Satanists! Let's include that! Oh, and one equating the Republican party with Satanism! And then let's add one more that supposedly has a Satanic "ceremony" involved!!"

Hey, Scoobs, you wanna do a little research into that beloved crucifix? Seeing the way those crazy Christians co-opted the symbol for their own uses should have you quaking in your boots! It is just as shocking as the Nazi use of an ancient Buddhist symbol of life and eternity for their own uses. Go ahead... I'll wait.

I guess I will be waiting for you to be a bit clearer on your point - unless a vague attempt at equating Freemasonry with Satanism was the crux of your post... but I am hoping you are better than that.

Holding your breath is not healthy ... unless you're skilled in pranayama.

Yeah, pretty much...

I found the upside down star, and the pin with the 32, and remembered the 322 skull and bones number, and then I was having fun adding attachments

What do you know about the monument?

The top one is the Order of the Eastern Star ... a women's Masonic Organization ... with cute little grannies who will feed you cookies and coffee until you confess that Satan is Lord.

The second one, of course, is the emblem of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry.

Eastern Star? My great aunt is eastern star (I think) or something similar. I had no idea. Her husband is a Mason, Shriner and something else.

Why is the star pointing down?

And why is the republican star pointing down also?

I made the goats head in the stars on the Republican logo myself.

I think the Eastern Star is fairly oblivious to the knowledge of black magic and would be surprised to learn that an upside-down pentagram signifies matter over mind, rather then vice-versa. If I remember correctly, the Eastern Star uses each of the points of the star to signify some biblical woman, like Rebekah, Ruth, Esther, oh jeez, maybe Mary and Elizabeth (?). (You can tell how often I've sat in on their meetings [they're co-ed by the way].)

Well, clearly the Republicans use the up-side-down star to signify their allegiance with the devil. That should be obvious.

The pentacle, or pentagram as it is sometimes known, is drawn in two ways, point up or point down.

In its totality, it is said that to have a "proper" pentacle, you MUST use five lines to draw it, and therefore have the five-sided pentagon inside of it. Although most don't want to admit it, the pentacle is thought to be the original Seal of Solomon (as in King Solomon of the bible). He is supposed to have been a great sorceror and was allegedly able to summon and command SATAN himself. To do this, he used the Great Seal, with the summoned would trace, looking for breaks in the line... and in their eagerness to find a "loophole" in the bindings, would never fully realize that they were retracing the lines and continue until properly commanded.

Also, the pentacle does a good job of displaying the Golden Mean in the lengths of the various sections of the lines. It has also been used to demonstrate the five wounds of Christ as he was on the cross.

Point up, it has more in common with spirituality, with the one point "reaching upward into the heavens" for enlightenment. It has also been used to represent the humanist figure of Man (like the one that went up on Voyager to the cosmos).

Point down, it has been both co-opted by deluded Satanists and neo-paganists to show that they are in direct opposition to Jesus. They tend to care nothing for history or symbolism. It was used by Pythagorus and his adherents as the "Perfect figure" that displayed every principle that he considered important - not the least of which was the Golden Mean. It has also been used to represent either a signal or a gift from "the heavens" being shined down on earth or given to earthly entities. Usually it was unknown or occultish in nature.

Much like the Wise men of the Bible - they followed a star that has long been represented as one-point down - to the young Ieheshua (Jesus). Older yet were the proto-Jews following Moses into the desert from Egypt, who followed a star who's bottom-most point would show the way to safety and the Promised Land.

The use of the symbol by Satanists and neo-pagans (OOooh! Look at me! I'm a PAGAN! Even though I really don't know what it means or how to do it, I'm a PAGAN!!! OOOohhhh!) is particularly sad - for exactly the point shown in my parenthetical expression. They try SO hard to be counter-culture that they grab for anything - even things they don't understand - just to prove they aren't sheeple.

Care to try again?

I understand the spirit of what you're trying to say, Malruhn. I just would quibble about a few minor points. As you may or may not know, the legend of Salomon, while an interesting tidbit in Masonic lore, is mostly that: Masonic lore. And there is Rosicrucian lore on the subject as well. Probably both fraternities would have a difficult time fully documenting that lore to the satisfaction of modern historians. Not that there wasn't something important in the founding of the Temple of Solomon. It's just that the details of the story are somewhat garbled. All in all, better to realize that the story is an upwelling from the collective unconsciousness of the ancient memory of how the mysteries were passed on to the Hebrews. Like most things that well up from the unconscious realms ... some of the details can get a little garbled.

While I agree that there are some "pagans" that are trying very hard to be rebels and counterculture folks, don't discount the fact that there is a very real reconstruction going on. There is a pre-Christian culture, an indigenous European culture that is emerging from the depths of our subconscious memory. And it will not be ridiculed or denied of its rebirth by an inferior "culture" that has botched Western Civilization.

Cro maat,
Rosencruez

Claims have been made that Albert Pike was a high ranking member of the Ku Klux Klan. This is a claim that is impossible to either substantiate or disprove. Research into primary source material will reveal that there is no primary source material.

The only writings that would come close to qualifying as a primary source is a booklet written by one of the Klan founders, Captain John C. Lester, in 1884, comprising his reminiscences fifteen years after the fact. The only name noted in Lester's book is one reference to "Gen. Forrest" it does not mention Albert Pike.

It was not until Dr. Walter L. Fleming republished Lester's booklet in 1905 that a list of names of key Klansmen was included in a preface one of whom was Albert Pike who is not mentioned at any other point in the book.

In 1924, Ms. Susan L. Davis published her Authentic History, in which she contradicts a number of points made by Lester, denigrates Fleming for his superficial knowledge of the Klan and condemns Lester's co-author, David L. Wilson, for suggesting the Klan had failed.

Any other book or article promoting Albert Pike's association with the Klan will either cite Fleming or Davis, cite other authors who cite Fleming or Davis, or not cite anyone. Both Fleming and Davis accepted, unquestioningly, the fifty year old reminiscences of several of the founding members of the Klan. There is no source documentation, corroborating evidence or other testimony to implicate Albert Pike with the Klan. Pike had been dead fourteen years when Fleming first published, and was in no position to address the issue.

source: http://www.answers.com/topic/albert-pike

i never siad he wasn't a racist a-hole, but i still say he wasn't some big shot klansman like many say.




haha. our politicians are either satan worshippers or jackasses.

rosencruz, i know you have been getting alot of questions, so i will repeat mine in case it was overlooked or forgotten about. have you read "the hiram key" and if so, what are your thoughts on it?

Hello SoLizz,

Overall, I enjoyed The Hiram Key. It made some interesting points here and there. The details about Rosslyn Chapel were certainly fascinating ... which is why Dan Brown ended The DaVinci Code there. (And if only there wasn't massive flooding and the trains being out of commission I would have visited there. Aw shucks.)

Regarding the mummy they thought was the original Hiram Abyff ... (Or was it his assassins, I forget? It's been awhile and I don't have the book before me.) Well, it's an interesting theory. I suppose at this late date it's difficult to really verify it to a historians' satisfaction.

All-in-all, it's a stimulating read, but I wouldn't really take it (or any book for that matter) as the final authority on Masonry.

Cheers,
Rosencruez

thanks for the response. i found it to be an interesting book, and a plausible theory on the history of masonry. my reason for asking was that i saw another book by the authors, and the cover flap made it seem sort of laughable. i just wanted a few other opinions in these guys before i wasted time and money on a book that mey be total crap.

thanks again for the response.

I'm still alive...I'm totally disappointed that they havn't sent ninjas to take me out yet....

So ... I guess they didn't have a sense of humor about your eavesdropping. Perhaps a wiser Mason would have had a laugh and gave you a petition form to see what it was all about from the inside, as it were. That is, if you still were interested following all those scary Robertson Rules of Order rituals.

Nah, no time for virgin sacrifices in my schedule...as fun as it sounds

Yeah well good luck finding a virgin these days.


But you really touched on the real reason why Freemasonry and all the other fraternities are on the decline. People are just too busy. 100 years ago people had more time to devote to such things. Fraternities were one of the primary ways of socializing. And it was far more of a literate culture. People read. Books were the primary medium. Today television has turned the American mind to mush.

So, while the Mason in question may get all huffy about your eavesdropping, he can huff and puff all he wants while the fraternity withers away to its slow death. Not only has the fraternity forgot what it exists for, it has grown incompetent and incapable of really understanding itself. Not much life in the old lodges these days, I'm afraid.

I thought that was the entire point of your "eastern star" girls....no??? I'm totally disappointed.

Oops. See my added paragraph to my edited post. Thought it was too short with just a one-liner.

I can't say I've ever been too attracted to the Eastern Star grannies. Sorry but wrinkly chicks fixated on biblical women just don't do it for me, no matter how good their cookies are.

OH...well don't you have a younger version...like the girl scouts...I took a tour of some Scotish Rite place in San Antonio...they mentioned it....

Job's Daughters.

Yea thats them...you dont kill sacrifice those to lucifer either eh....you guys are no fun.

these images, the inverted pentagram, i think, represents the selfish view of materialism, desire, sensualism and all other ego-centric ways of life.

the top horns would touch the ends horizontal bar(egoof soul) of the cross and signify that that self expression is their right and power.

ill try and create an animation of my interpretation of this. give me time.

its crude and could use some more animation but i think its a good attempt.



once you create god in your being the pentagram flips to its upward state and you have worldlyspirituality. supress your ego by using your free will to trust in / obey god's you have christ consciousness.

this might be wrong. but it what i have gotten out of my meditations on the cross

sorry for that spelling mistake too.

Pretty good, I get it, and agree. Nice little animation you made.

How mind-numbing.

You equate using your brain with worshipping the devil.

I think I hear the chimpanzees calling me. I suspect they will learn sign language long before Christian fundamentalists learn anything


Anyone want to place bets?

Monkey's ARE doing some pretty incredible things these days...not sure thats a good bet.

worshiping the devil? No. just being head strong and ego controlled is why lucifer was cast down. his ego was on automatic goodness, so he flattered himself and everyone flattered him becasue he was so grand. he decied he wanted to be free. truth was he wasnt done with his soul evolution, and not fit to be a god. He was the red king. and he rebelled. the fall put him in place to serve as the tester of man. being driven by the chaos and seperation and hatred . his name became satan. and he is less than us. this is what i think. there is a book of urantia that says something different, but i dont trust it.

The inverse perntagram also stands for the OLD way.
The rightside Pentagram represents the New way.

that is why the republican logo of the conservatives has inversed pentagrams.

Like the conservatives back in the day wanted to keep slavery, they didnt want to listen to the liberal trash of the progressive way(for obviously selfish reasons... kinda like big business).

They are in power, and they designed it themselves, so maybe they have to exist until the world will no longer tolerate them and everyone(for the most part) wants the new way to come.

just speculation.

Hate to burst your bubble, but it was the democratic south that wanted to keep slavery. The Republicans abolished slavery. Quite getting your news from Matt Lauer and Katie Couric.

hate to burst yours. but the democrats were the conservatives back then.
parties are always enterexhcanging. and republicans were obviously liberals.

dont confuse yourself.

I HATE THE FREEMASONS!!!!!!!!!!
They basicly hav diplomatic immunity, no wait, they DO hav diplomatic immunity, it's not right.

Calm down..

they are better than you. and they deserve it. they have high important secret control us things to do. and they are enlightend. and you have no light in your eyes.


vent on. vent on.

im just kiddin.

FreeMasonry is just a Protestant version of the Mafia. To hear them tell it, they CONTROL America. How marvelous. The economy is nearly bankrupt, Everyone hates America, they are responsible for the slaughter in the mideast , racial tensions at home and they have a great talent for making people miserable with their vendettas, crimes and corruptions.

THIS IS ENLIGHTENMENT?????

My friend, this is delusional. I would encourage you to visit your local Masonic lodge. Ask for a tour. I bet some old codger would love to show you around the lodge. 100 years ago Freemasonry's influence was much greater than it is now. It's what people did in their free time. They went to fraternal meetings. The Odd Fellows. The Elks Lodge, the Eagles. The Masons were just a little more different in that they focused on the tools of the stonemasons to make moral lessons, and it so happens that the majority of the founding fathers were Freemasons. Today, however, most lodges are struggling to survive, and can barely maintain their facilities. My lodge, in fact, recently consolidated with another lodge and no longer exists. That is typical of the state of Masonry these days. It's that way with nearly all fraternal organizations, because kids just are too busy and are pretty much uninterested in such things, except in kooky conspiracy theories they read off the web and take as the "gospel truth."

But to say that "Freemasonry is just a Protestant version of the Mafia" shows how uninformed you clearly are. And then you think that this is somehow connected with the current state of affairs! That is incredibly laughable and ironic. Why? Because our president is a raving evangelical Christian --- and would surely hate Freemasonry if his preacher preached against it --- which he probably has! Southern Baptists surely do. Blame the evangelical Christians for the world hating us, but not the Freemasons. In fact, it is Freemasonry's enfeebled state that is largely to blame for the enfeeblement of our democracy. You ought to read Sir Francis Bacon's The New Atlantis to see what our country was originally envisioned to be compared to what it has sadly become.

Cro maat,
A frater

And I can hear it now [god I hate having to repeat myself], "but Bush is in the Skull and Bones."

Well, duh, and that is a different fraternity that is unconnected to Freemasonry or the Illuminati. So quit jumbling them all together in your heads into one great collective organization that is supposedly linked to the Trilateral Commission, the Council on Foreign Relations, the United Nations, the Illuminati, the Communist Party. DOES ANYONE THINK CRITICALLY ANYMORE? ARE OUR SCHOOLS TURNING OUT MUSH-HEADED MORONS WHO CANNOT THINK OR REASON OUTSIDE OF CHRISTIAN FUNDAMENTALIST SLOGANS?

Apparently.

Just wondring Rosencruez, if you have one...what is your religion. I think it's safe for me to say your not part of a branch of Christianity

I take what is useful from all religions, mostly their esoteric teachings before the lesser men got involved and screwed things up. I'd like to think that I am what the Martinists call a "Philosopher of Unity." For the most part, however, my fraternity acts as my surrogate religion, even though it technically isn't one. In other words, I get more out of it than I ever did any one particular religion.

That being said, these days I am more drawn to Druidism and the Nordic pre-Christian religion known as Asatru.

Wait...wait....wait....you have to be a Christian to make it past the 15th Degree of the Scotish Rite...I thought you were a 32nd Degree????? What gives...did you lie to them or us?