Sorry, but you do NOT have to be a Christian to be in the Scottish Rite at ALL! To be entirely honest, there is no requirement to be Christian for ANY of the apendant bodies - to include the Knight's Templar - and they are a very Christian based organization. The only requirement is to be RELIGIOUS and not have a problem with a monotheistic godhead that is usually attributed to be a "He". Outside of that, anything goes, as long as you can make it through the investigative committee when you petition. If things seem "hinkey", they will probably vote against membership.

you dont believe this. do you?

and did you just call george bush achristian!? well... there are worse who call themselves christians... but too confirm it in anyway.... shame.

The fraternity I was referring to in my last post, for what it's worth, is not the Masonic lodge. I know that people tend to jumble them all into one amorphous "conspiracy" in some sludge pile filing cabinet inside your heads, but they're actually separate organizations. I don't think the average person here, unused to specificity in thinking, realizes the concept of dual-memberships.

Actually, I said this earlier in a response to Scoobysnack.

Most of the "Masons" are just businessmen out to make more cash. Lol.

Well, in some ways, there are a lot of Masons who aren't really interested in the deeper side of Masonry. I got this sense somewhat when attending lodge in Freemason's Hall in London. But maybe that isn't a fair assessment. Incidentally, the chap to my immediate left fell asleep during a First Degree initiation and started snoring loudly. I chose not to be the guy to elbow him awake. Great Queen Street is just a hop-skip-and-a-jump from Fleet Street. I did like the brothers I met though and it was a pleasure. It's just that perhaps the real lodge meeting was held afterwards across the street --- at the Hercules Pillars Tavern .

cheers,
R

Rosencruez, Malruhn, (or whoever else cares to answer),

I have been following this discussion with much interest, though I have very little understanding of the subjects it deals with. You seem rather knowledgeable on a variety of subjects, and perhaps could you share your opinion on the following questions (none of which, I would like to stress, is meant as a personal attack on you or your beliefs). These are rather disconnected, and not always to the point of what has been written in this thread, so you will have to forgive the chaotic fashion in which my mind works...

1. What is your take on atheistic freemasonry, and the Grand Orient. From what I have read of your writings, atheism and the occult part of freemasonry seem rather irreconciliable.
2. It is often said that modern day freemasonry is speculative rather than operative. How do you think that transition happened. How did freemasonry move from what essentially sounds to me as a trade-union type system, to a largely middle to upper-class organization preoccupied with occult matters. What was seen in the original masons recognition system to be conducive to the teaching of occult matters through allegorical scenes (other than its secrecy)?
3. By becoming a freemason, I understand you take an oath to come to the assistance of any other member that might need it... Is there an allegorical meaning in this oath? How do you interpret it? I guess, what I mean is: you describe how the great majority of modern day masons have become detached from the true teachings of freemasonry... Does that, in your view, free you from the oath you have taken?
4. As I understand it, freemasonry stands for science and enlightment. I seem to understand from your posts (though maybe I am wrong) that your views are essentially creationist. How do you reconcile them with scientific ideas such as evolutionism and big-bang theory?
5. I have read that the three blows you receive during your master mason initiation ceremony, symbolise the death of the body, the heart and the mind, in order to be reborn to the light (I am aware I am paraphrasing rather clumsily here). Certainly, freemasonry seems to concern itself about the rebirth of the heart (morals) and the head (intellect), but there seems to me to be very little about the body? In fact, as far as I can see, most religious systems seem to completely ignore the question of the human body (mens sana in corpore sano) other than chastisising it, or abusing it through various concepts such as aesceticism... etc. Why is that in your view?
6. Ultimately, from an outsiders point of view and from what I have read, it seems that freemasonry is concerned with very little else than interpreting occult symbols and deciphering allegories, the meaning of which may or may not have been lost. Would you say there are valuable moral lessons to be reached through this study (other than obvious precepts such as 'do not do onto others...'). This seems to me -I hesitate to say sterile for its not the right word- rather time-consumming? Or are there things to be found on the path to enlightment other than moral precepts and a better understand of ancient symbols and myths, which bear little relevance to today's life?


I apologise in advance in case I have touched upon controversial subjects. My aim is not to put you on the spot, but simply to try and understand a little better. I would probably describe myself as an atheist, though I sometimes sense that I may be missing on an important aspect of life...

These are all very thoughtful and legitimate questions. I will respond in more detail when I can, most likely tomorrow. Of course, any other Masons are free to respond in the meantime and then we can compare notes, as it were.

Pax profundis,
A frater

First off, thanks for the PM.

Atheism IS antithetical to Freemasonry. However, I think you are confusing non-Christian or Agnosticism with Atheism, and they are NOT even close to similar.

Or... I completely misconstrued your point and am rambling on endlessly...

For this, you are dipping back into unproven relationships that many Freemasons don't accept as being valid. Freemasonry "officially" started in 1717, but there are legends (unproven) that it goes back much farther. One unproven legend (that sounds good to those who don't dig into it very far), is that Freemasonry started in the ranks of stone-masons that were "Free" to travel and build churches, castles and edifices of great note, setting themselves apart from the general population that couldn't travel without expressed permission. Also, stone-masons were educated and were great with math - which was NOT the case with Joe Average, Mrs. Average and all the little Average children.

The story goes that eventually, as mankind grew more enlightened, the populace could travel more - and could learn freely - and so the stone-masons were no longer "set apart". A desire came for non-stone-masons to join the "in" group, and this is supposedly when the Craft moved from "Operative" to "Speculative".

Again - this is pure fantasy - even if it does make a modicum of sense.

Going along with this, the original Master Masons were educated, and, being masters of their Craft, were wealthy. Who could join? Other educated individuals. Who stands a better chance of becoming wealthy? Educated people!!

They aren't interested so much in "occult" as they are in what USED to be either ignored or forbidden. The study of math and the liberal arts was at one time banned in many countries... and it is given as one of many reasons for modern Speculative Freemasons to study the subjects.

I have always seen this part of the Oaths to be a gentle reminder to be nice. If someone comes to you, looking for help - HELP THEM! If they happen to be a Freemason, see if there is a little deeper space in the pocket that you can dig to help them. The Oaths make a point of saying that you should help as far as you are able to - without material injury to yourself or family, or "to the length of your cable-tow", which has been interpreted by some as being "as far as your morality will let you".

I look at those who are misguided the same way I see the general population that is misguided... there are those who follow the "way", and those that just "follow."

And, no, I see no difference between those people and those who toe the line to live a Masonic lifestyle. And when it comes to help - I treat all the same - members and non-members.


You are a bit off on this one. The views are primarily "evolutionary creationist".

God - whoever he/she/it/they is/are - is out there, and we are to worship according to the tenets of our professed religion. We are also supposed to study the liberal arts, including grammar, rhetoric, history, math, geometry, music, and astronomy. Any problems between the Arts and our religion is to be rectified according to our own hearts.

PERSONALLY, I follow this pretty closely - but then I am kinda weird...

Yup - you were clumsy. To follow your interpretation, the care of the body is paramount, as it is the Edifice of our mortal souls in this world. Yes, much of the care is glossed over, but it stands to reason and SHOULD become apparent through the study of the Liberal Arts.

HOWEVER, we are supposed to be painfully aware of who/what is going on with our bodies, as one of the tenets of Freemasonry is to "subdue our passions", and some of the biggest passions we have are gluttony and lechery. So, if I can continue to do push-ups (away from the dinner table) and refrain from doing push-ups (from atop some young lovely), I am doing my part for the body, which will help the mind. Howzat? Clear as mud?

Actually, your view isn't too far from the truth.

And, the Golden Rule is much more important to Freemason than you give credit. My home lodge closes each meeting with the three main officers saying:
"How should Masons be seen by our fellow man?"
"By the Square."
"How should Masons hold themselves?"
"By the Plumb."
"How should Masons act?"
"On the level."
"Go, then, and endeavor so to be seen, held, and act."

Of course, I am biased, but I think there is MUCH more than moral precepts and mystical crap involved... but your mileage may vary.

Hello,

I'll have to be brief but Malruhn has hit on some major points that I probably would have mentioned.

1). In the U.S. Juridiction one must have a belief, some belief --- however one defines it --- of a higher Supreme Being or deity. The French have been somewhat more lenient in this regard, as you have a longstanding skeptical tradition, ala Voltaire. I.e., philosophers who easily saw through the shinanigans of the church and so were labeled "atheists" even though they in most cases had some concept of deity --- contrary to church dogma.

In my experience, often agnostics and so-called atheists are just more intellectually honest with themselves about what they know versus what they don't know. Consider this wise truism of the famous Rosicrucian, Jean Jaques Rousseau:

"If a man will start with certainties, he will end in doubts; but if he be content to begin with doubts, he will end in certainties."

2). That is the $64,000 question, as it were. There has been much debate over how, when, and even if there was a transition from speculative to operative Masonry. It is interesting to me that the earliest inscription about Masons also refers to the Brotherhood of the Rosy Cross. As a Rosicrucian, I tend to favor the Rosicrucian theory of Masonic origins. After I attended lodge in London I managed to purchase a five volume set of R.F. Gould's "History of Freemasonry," published in 1888, which I lugged through Heathrow International Airport. It has an excellent section on this theory.

One should note that the location where Freemasonry officially got underway in 1717, at the Goose and Gridiron Tavern (later named the Apple Tree Tavern), exists in a very specific spot within Covent Gardens in London. This just so happens to be the same district where the Fraternity of the Rosy Cross had been meeting for at least 100 years. The Rosicrucians, led by Sir Francis Bacon, Elias Ashmole, and others, also used the tools of stonemasons to make allegorical lessons. The Rosicrucians were meeting basically on the same block where the Freemasons eventually united their lodges in 1717 to form the Grand Lodge of England. It is my contention that the members of the Brotherhood of the Rosy Cross, the English Areopagita, the Arcadian Academy, invented the three degrees of craft masonry. They were knowledgeable of the ancient mystery teachings and probably had some familiarity with operative stonemasonry.

3). Incidentally, in London they no longer use those famous oaths.

4). All life evolves. But what makes this possible first is the involution, the spirit incarnating in matter in order that it might evolve to self-awareness. The ancient wisdom has much in common with quantum physics and psychoanalysis.

5). You've been reading the DaVinci Code. Opus Dei is not Freemasonry.

6). Yes, there are deeper things involved than superficial tales of morality. The ancient wisdom is all-encompassing and is really our heritage from an ancient pre-historic world.

Thank you both for your answers.
Rosencruez, no I haven't read the Da Vinci code. I was simply wondering why physicality, and even more specifically sexuality,seems to be such a sore point in a lot of religions, and what was the masonic point of view on the question.
In eastern religions there is a cult of the body; not of the body-beautiful, but of the body-strong at least. Thus martial arts are one of the five arts in Taoism...
I cannot think of anything similar in more western religions. Why deny man his sexual and physical nature?

I have to leave a post.

Over the weekend the History Channel had a story on this topic.

I'll check for any link. The Stone Masons in England became organized
by Newton and members of the Enlightenment. It ended in a chapel
in Scotland.

Ebay had many uniforms and objects from the 1910-1930 period
up for sale, so if you want a coat with a red cross on the sleeve, there
you go.


That is part of complete spirituality which is denial of earthly pleasure.

So what is heavenly pleasue? Our bodies will be restored and not die.
For sure we will honor God.
God feeds the birds and we are worth more to God than the birds, so He
will feed us and help us live on. The denial route seems to take God at His
Word.

God's pain won us heaven, our own pain keeps us going asking for His help.
Too extreme may not get you anywhere better or faster.

Rosencruez your patience, and non-repeditive answers astound me. Although I can see that you obviously are quite happy that people are taking an interest in your area of expertise.

So as a studied man that you are, what would you consider to be the goal of Free Masonry. (Please refrain from an orwellian answer). Apart from the obvious social networking and economic benifits that are associated with being a part of any group or organization.

I guess I ask this, because to me free masonry, the way you described it, is not a religion at all, but more of a network, complete with a hiearchy which allows members to receive social status and maintains organization. From the sounds of it, you are quite uninlightened and instead only offer knowledge of something that you are incapable of fully realizing.

Realize, of course, that there are as many answers to this question as there are Masons ... exponentially more answers, probably.

The gist of it is this ...

In the midst of a Western Civilization where the church had long held a stranglehold on everything, there has always been a certain "intelligentsia" who were never fooled by the bogus "truths" pawned off on the masses. There were those who were learned in the Old Ways. People who were familiar with the ancient mysteries of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, and yes, Hebrews. There were no doubt sentimentalists amongst these literati who wished to revive (or create) modern versions of these ancient "mystery schools" --- which were designed to awaken latent faculties into the light of day. Amongst these mystery schools was a great amount of practical information, techniques, really, that were meant to be put to use for conditioning the nervous system, healing sickness, and integrating the deeper (and occult) aspects of the psyche with one's surface life.

Initially there were those who understood the need for there to be a certain counterbalance to the church --- to re-infuse teachings from the golden era of classical civilization into the modern world. Masonry was but one of those fraternities designed to reinfuse the western world with forgotten teachings.

Socially and politically, one could say that there was always an undercurrent of utopian politics, ala Sir Francis Bacon's The New Atlantis. This utopian society could be brought about with the advent of the scientific method --- put forth in Bacon's Novus Organum --- working hand-in-hand with the preserved spiritual techniques of the Neoplatonists and the Corpus Hermeticum. They sought, and did, bring about the Rosicrucian Enlightenment and the Novus Ordo Seclorum, the democratic republics of France, the U.S., Italy, and elsewhere.

As with any organization, however, the succeeding generations of leaders do not grasp the founding vision to the same degree as those who follow. And so it is that Masonry today is a somewhat hollow shell of its former glory. Hardly the English Areopagita of the West.