Nevertheless, perhaps you might be interested in learning about A Secret Meeting In Rome.

so your supposing the illuminati are Protestants then.

Sanjuro, if I wrote a thousand page book on "Morals and Dogma of the Christian Movement", would you call it a "Handbook of Christianity"?? This is what you are doing with Pike. He was an EXTREMELY prolific writer (read: diarrhea of the typewriter), and like I said in my last post, when snippets are taken from the work in question, it DOES sound bad - but that assumption is ERRONEOUS and not based in fact, being taken out of context and without supporting info from the same work.

And, as I forgot in my last post, regarding the Long Island Murder:

In a Lodge in Patchogue, NY (the Lodge I originally petitioned to become a member... thank God they never got back to me!!), there was a hunting club. Some members got together and decided to make it a "Masonic" hunting club, and created some whacked-out rituals that supposedly made prospective Freemasons official "Members" of this club. In one astoundingly stupid moment (of many), the ritual called for an unloaded shotgun to be dry-fired at the new applicant.

Problem was: It wasn't unloaded...

The member was shot full in the chest and died on the spot.

In attendance were about fifteen members of the hunting club - all of which were Freemasons from the Patchogue Lodge. Of these, there were TWO doctors and two cops. The docs couldn't revive the victim, and the cops called for an ambulance. All were taken into custody, with only three facing charges, the two "handlers" who held the victim, and the shooter.

In the rest of the group, there were THREE suicides, as the guys couldn't take the knowledge of what had happened.

The Lodge lost its charter to be an official Lodge, ALL members that had knowledge of the club (upwards of 80+% of a 250 member lodge) had their memberships stripped, and the Grand Lodge of New York took possession of the building in which they met. All Lodge ornamentation was confiscated by Grand Lodge, the Masonic Emblem was cut from the entrance, and the building was sold.

It was a HUGE black eye for the local Freemasons, however, there is nothing to say that the homicide was anything other than a horrible accident visited upon a small group of stupid people... sorry, no (inter)national conspiracy.

The Morgan Affair was MUCH more evil in the conduct of the crimes.

Maybe they wanted to tell the truth about this killing and killers killed them and made it look like suicide.

Anyway I will find the truth out from my country masons and then I will inform peoples about what I saw.

No. Pay attention. Think.

for f*** sake, pay attention?, 99% of freemasons in scotland are protestant. The illuminati as you said has no link with the vatican. So catholicism must not be included. So, that leaves protestants, who probably make up 90% of all freemasons in the world.

Heheh. There's a certain testiness on board today that one has to giggle at. Sometimes life is a bit more complicated than an either/or question. It doesn't reduce to an either/or question. For one, Freemasonry is not the same as the Illuminati. And as an example, one friend of mine in the Illuminati is a traditionalist Catholic ... and yet that doesn't make the Illuminati linked to the Vatican any more than the fact that there are Mormon Rosicrucians mean that there is a co-conspiracy with the folks in Salt Lake City.

Jesus, people.

We'd all be better off as Druids and Asatru, I tell you. Half of the idiotic things that you have to clarify come from cleaning up the garbled record of christianity.

Pax deorum,
Rosencruez

Very good information:
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/

This is SO tiresome... Sanjuro, are you aware that Hollywood makes movies? That these movies are FICTIONAL? That site lists "From Hell" as a source for conspiratory FACT!!

Using this logic, I think mermaids are real, because I saw Ariel on a Disney tape!!

Hey, Rosencruez, you realize that that website is fictional on all accounts, right? No cites, no references, just a guy saying, "A meeting happened because I told you it happened - and it happened with a very famous and powerful man who's name I won't reveal so you can't prove me wrong. Then we went and did stuff that you can't verify, but you had better believe it because I took the time to put it on a web page!" This is the same tactic as Sanjuro.

Yes, I agree that it is very tiresome. And Sanjuro's weblink goes to demonstrate (partially) why he's so screwed up in this regard.

Malruhn, I don't care if you take it as fiction. Neither myself or Frater Raymond Bernard will not be made or unmade according to what you or anyone else believe. Skepticism is okay. Rosicrucianism is not about blind belief. For what it's worth, Frater Raymond Bernard, who died a few weeks ago, was at one time the leader of Rosicrucians in France. Today his son Christian is the Rosicrucian Imperator. Frater Raymond was quite talented and was also instrumental in founding several Templar and Pythagorean groups.

Cro maat (the truth shall be),
A frater

rosencruz what does the masons have to do with the occult

In the average lodge ... not much, because most Masons are not curious about learning the deeper aspects of Freemasonry. They don't read Pike, they don't know much about the Rosicrucians, they don't know much about such groups as the Elus Cohens or the Strict Templar Observance, they don't know much about the true origins of Christianity, they don't know much about the ancient mystery schools, they don't know much about the Orphic mysteries, the Eleusinian mysteries, the Mithraic mysteries, the Essenes ...

You get the picture. Where there is little curiosity, little will be learned, little will be known, little will be remembered ... except for curious memorizations that have more to do with pseudo-Chivalric faux pas titles and rites which were written by people more intelligent.

Such is the state of Masonry at the moment ...

A Frater

Here you admit occultism in masonry.
Didnt you say " oh no we dont have anything to do with Lucifer. "

Sorry, Sanjuro, but 2+2 does NOT equal 5 here.

"Occult" means, "That which is hidden". It DOESN'T mean Lucifarian, or anything else. We are talking esotarica here (is that a real word?).

And I would really like to argue with Rosencruez... if he weren't right. Out of the seven hundred members in my home Lodge, there are maybe five of us that do any research into anything outside of the stockmarket or sports scores.

When we do ritual work, you can see the guys on the sidelines that have done research - they nod and have a glimmer of understanding in their eyes when we do stuff. The rest of the guys just marvel at the lectures and b**** if the lecturer gets something wrong.

But surely if you claim to be a true Christian,Bush,etc. How can you be a mason also?
If they study "asrol mythology of the egyptians" it would go against there beliefs?
(let alone,the going ons at skull and bones,Bohemian grove,being born again at mason initiations and cutting your nipples off with one trouser leg rolled up! )

christian give us a link to an english version of Les Noces Chimiques, my french is sh**.

This was one series of non-sequitors after another. How does one even begin to unravel all the garbled thoughts that are mashed together?

Let's get things straight. The Freemasons are not the Skull and Bones. The Bohemian Grove is, gawd knows what, but has no relation to anything we're discussing other than someone's bullscheisse conspiracy theory. Nor is the Illuminati one and the same as Freemasonry; they are separate organizations, although it is possible for people to have dual memberships. A lot of people who are into esoterica often are members of many different "occult" fraternities and hence they end up being "dues poor."

Albert Pike did write about the astral-mythology of the Egyptians, but approximately zero-point-zero of Freemasons today understand Pike, unfortunately. The last one who did, Henry Clausen (see "Clausen's Commentary on Morals and Dogma,") was driven out of his leadership role as the head of the Scottish Rite. Since then the Southern Jurisdiction has pretty much abandoned all "esoteric" thinking. It's more a part of Freemasonry's history than its present. And for those few Masons --- maybe one-half of one percent --- who are curious about the history of their lodge --- even fewer still really make the connection between the astral-mythology of the Egyptians and the astral-mythology of early Christianity. Now we're probably down to a one-in-a-million ratio, literally.

Cro maat,
Rosencruez

man Pike supported the south, forget about him for a second, you got an online copy of that or anything by Abdarrahman ben Abdallah al Iskari?

plus another thing, how much was heindel influenced by blatvasky, he was a memeber of theosophical society was he not.

Oh crap I accidentally erased my reply. Anyways, there are Masonic and Rosicrucian authors who write more clearly than Pike. No doubt some fundamentalist has put his works into a pdf somewhere online.

I'm not familiar with al Iskari.

Christian Rosenkreuz studed under many arabic philosophers on his pilgrimiage before returning to germany. If youv not already read Fama Fraternitatis.

Yes ... this is true ... (see the Fama Fraternitatis of 1614) although it might be better to think of Christian Rosenkreuz as an allegory for the entire Hermetic/Qabalistic tradition. During the Dark Ages the Arabs preserved the knowledge of classical civilization. Then, of course, there is the Templar transmission. The Templars are said to have come into contact with an early, i.e., Essene, branch of Christianity in Syria during the Crusades.

Cro maat,
Rosencruez

Yes Max Heindel was originally a member of the Theosophical Society, which at the time was pretty popular among curious people. (Still you can learn a lot from them.) Funny you mention Max Heindel. I read a somewhat humorous essay the other day about how Rudolph Steiner was annoyed that Heindel attended several of his lectures in Germany and then went to America and plagiarized a lot of the info in the lecture in his books like the Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception. Steiner's ideas were essentially "Rosicrucian" but he chose not to use that moniker, given its long and sordid history. Steiner chose to go by the name "Anthroposophism." He was a clairvoyant observer of the Higher Worlds, and as such was in touch with the heirarchy of the Invisible Fraternity.

Heindel's works are interesting in their own right. A little odd, but interesting.

You'll find that Rosicrucianism is a vast field of enquiry. Some writers are downright whacky. Some are campy. Quite a few are brilliant!

Cheers,
Rosencruez

Well, the Templars were originaly archaeologists, but lol kinda thought Hiendels seven fold concept was borrowed, but it is a tragedy Islam is slowly being destroyed as rightly as you say they have been the keepers of much ancient science. A great grandson of mohamad, Ja'far al-Sadiq taught the brilliant alchemist Geber. Unfortunatly due to the crusades much of their science or texts have been erradicated[or in the vatican vault lol] luckily however the Templars did rescue much of it too Europe, but only to be persecuted for it.

Annoyingly its this sort of thing that gives rise to such ludicrous suspicions about such knowledge, sad.

Yes, that is true. I believe Geber and his Arabic teachers were mentioned in a Rosicrucian Digest a while back. The West should be appreciative to the Arabic and Persian communities for allowing their wisest members to take shelter under their umbrella during the Dark Ages. (You're probably already aware of this.) When the Platonic Academies were shut down by Emperor Justinian in 529 A.D. a lot of the Neoplatonic philosophers fled to Persia and lived under the protection of the Sassanid Dynasty, especially under Ardashir I. There was a great library in Jundishapur (modern day Iran) that held almost as many books as in Alexandria. Some of the Neoplatonic works surived there.

Then, of course, the Templars were on friendly terms with the Assassins. Perhaps the Sufis, as the more esoteric Muslims, are the closest brothers to the Rosicrucians.

Cro maat,
Rosencruez

Against the gnostics lol, plutonius hardly helpd but i suppose in doin so he did give rise to much of kabbalists and in a way help give rise to the reneisance by pushing Neoplatonism out of europe for a time.

Have you read much about Philo?

Philo of Alexandria. Yes, I used to peruse his works a bit back when I was studying theology ... (in the dark, dark ages ). But yes, Philo tried to blend Hellenistic concepts with Judaism, especially the Logos doctrine of Heraclitis. No doubt the proem to the Gospel of John was influenced by Philo.

---R

First off, the space bar is your friend. Wow! But that is hard to read!

At one time in my long life, I was an ordained Christian Minister, a legal, card-carrying preacher-man. Thus far, in my Masonic journey, I have not only found NOTHING that is at odds with my former calling, and actually has caused me to study the Bible MORE. There is nothing in the Oaths that caused me any problems - HOWEVER -

With the ONE passage in the Book of Matthew that says we aren't supposed to make promises or take oaths except to Jesus, I can fully see that some fundamentalist Christian franchises getting their panties in a bunch. This being said, the group I studied and was ordained through didn't interpret that passage in that way...

Regarding studying stuff that isn't necessarily "Christian", consider this: if I study the habits of serial killers, it doesn't mean that _I_ am a serial killer - or that I'm going to become one. When I was knee-deep in the Christian faith, I saw my research into the occult and other theological systems as being my duty to know as much about the "enemy" as I could... as we were in a battle for my mortal soul.

The "Raising" in the Third Degree is symbolic - and if you read the ritual - it is NOTHING like you are picturing (or poorly describing). And there is NOTHING about cutting a nipple off. In Freemasonry and the York Rite, I can positively say that there is no mention of nipples or boobies at all!

Holy cow! I think we are actually making some progress here!!

the problem is that you will sacrifice a life without their consent, and then use means of deception to cover your tracks...

at least that is the only debatable problem i have run into.

its about being a control freak.

its about not sharing.

freemasons run the country, and you are more intrerested in dominating the globe so you can fix all of its problems instead of just............. using that money to fix all of the problems. i think america needs to be the best all around before it can claim that what is best for america is best for the world.

and what is sad is america is not getting better. it is getting nastier, more hateful, more perverted, more twisted, and more disassociated, and more greedy. people are giving up on their governemnts.

i just dont get it. !!!!!????!! thats why i have to take breaks from caring about this country, because sometimes it gets too overwelhming to look America into her eyes.

shes got a sexy body though.

Adbox ... if there's anything you'd like to talk about that's connected to the real world, we'd love to hear that too.

I will agree with you regarding the state of America though. To me it's more a sign of the pathetic state of Freemasonry and the rise of evangelicals in the White House making deals with corporate America, military profiteers, and private cronies at the expense of the needy and the poor and the disabled.

C'est la'vie. [Just reached the outer limits of my French skills.]

---rosencruez

what does this general statement mean?

and yes im glad we agree, but you know as well as i do that most of corporate america is affiliated with freemasonry. or not? explain my ingnorance if the answer is no please.

ADbox, what did you mean when you said the following:


And why do you say that you feel that Freemasonry runs the country? There is no legitimate evidence of this... some anecdotal stuff that paranoiacs can get crazy about, but nothing verifiable. Sure, there are Freemasons in ALL walks of life - if we were coordinated and/or had an "agenda" perhaps something could be done - but we are neither coordinated nor do we have an agenda that reaches outside of our own membership (to make good men better).

Also, from your name and the use of question marks, it is obvious that your "shift" key works. Any possibility that you could use it when starting sentences or with proper names? You hobble any arguments you have by using "kid" speak... and it detracts from the reader's chance of taking you seriously. Thanks!

the fact that the back of the dollar bill is laden with their symbolism. Military personal says you get promoted faster if you are of the mesonic order. most of the local politicians from my home city are of the order. Almost all of our presidents have been of the order, or had top advisors who were. The constitution was practically written by them. The fact that there is secrecy, means that it is nearly impossible for agendas not to form. To have such a collection of local and national politics and not make political use of it would be an insult to power. logic, natural paranoa, deductive reasoning, patterns in core issues. *yawn*






im 11 years old. and your an asshole. you dont care about my progression as a writer. this is a rhetorical tool to deminish my credibility. asshole. but whatever.


------


but dont get me wrong. i understand that there are characters who hold different ideals and agendas with in the system and within politics. Thats why its so genius to threaten members with death if they try and testify against one another, that is completly out of the question so ive read(in a book. by a mason ). A genius system. i can feel your pride brush my skin. tantric.


----

and one more thing.

pharmakos, a masonic term for HUMAN SACRIFICE.

You're 11 years old?

I can't believe my first post about my super secret chuck norris like spy skills has turned into this fiasco.....

Adbox ... if you're 11 years old and talking about this stuff ... well then my compliments. You are way ahead of the game. I take back whatever snide comments I made and sit and wonder how the universe works sometimes. That makes my night ...

You're the new boy genius to even know what Freemasonry is at your age! No kidding.

I think you'd be a great candidate to be in the DeMolet fraternity ... which is for boys who have parents or relatives in the Masons. I'd be happy to sponsor you.

Cheers,
Rosencruez

Funny. I know these threads get hijacked so easily. It was a pretty funny anecdote about sneaking in to eavesdrop on a Masonic lodge meeting. I had always wondered what someone listening in would think ... and I'm not surprised that it put you to sleep. Like I said, most often it turns out to be a bland business meeting made for Robertson's Rules of Order. Unfortunately the esoteric minded brothers quickly lose interest in the mundane minutia of paying lodge bills reading the minutes, it seems.

I suggest trying it again, but secretly have a video recorder. Then intentionally get caught just to watch their reaction. Gosh I shouldn't wish that on my Brothers ... but you gotta think the reaction would be priceless. I'd hope they'd have a sense of humor. Might want to wait to do that for a Shriner's meeting instead though. Surely they might get a better laugh at it.

Cheers,
Rosencruez

No way are you 11 years old Adbox. If you truly are, which I doubt, like Rosencruz said, you are very informed, smarter then many adults. And you are a good writer.

you have my compliments adbox...heck even now i'm not quite certain if the freemasons are just people who build things free of charge...

Try these:


And you are still shooting yourself in the foot. A man in a clown-suit that delivers an inspiring speech is still a clown. A person that posts brilliance on paper that is riddled with misspellings and improper capitalization and punctuation is seen the same way. I don't really care what the age is.

Your info about murder for testifying against members is not only off base, but completely wrong. The only thing close to this are the symbolic penalties to breaking the Oaths, and to my knowledge and research, they haven't been used in recorded history. Which means they haven't been used as long as there has been "Freemasonry", which started in the early 1700's.

Regarding the symbolism on the dollar bill - hey, there are numbers on there - does that mean that Math teachers are part of an evil cabal as well? Gimme a break!

i read it in a book(curretn book, written by a mason, who got permission to write the book ). it is forbidden to testify agaisnt a brother. no matter what the occasion. and murder is a light term for the actual threats they have for breaking your vowed duty. you might be able to downplay me, but you wont change my mind. and yes. there has been examples of them using such methods in todays freemasonry, but they are debatable and neither one of us would form a stable conclusion.

and regarding the symbolism on the dollar bill: blah blah blah. random smart ass response. this isnt my battle. make your own desicion, think for yourself, dont let malrundeigo think for you. blah blah blah.

Oh brother. Now we're back to Masons murdering people. Well, you certainly make a good case for it, albeit inadvertantly.

Sorry ADbox, but there is NO possibility that a REAL Freemason is going to get permission from ANY other REAL Freemason to write a book telling ANY "secrets". Added to all this, there is NO pledge to murder ANYTHING or ANYONE if they testify against a Freemason.

Thanks again Malruhn for stating the obvious ... want to place a wager on how long this one will hold?

Long enough for someone other than you or I to post, Rosencruez... sadly...

turning the hiram key... robert lomas.

ill find the passages that lead to my beliefs later if you want me to. but i dont want to do all that searching just to defend myself.. i will though.. if u make me.

hes actually wrote a series of books about masonry. only revealing a little bit in order to get people interested and quench the public's curiosity. nothing too revealing.

i was just about to mention these books.

i'm not a mason, or a christian or anything, and i am trying to look at this as unbiased as i can. i can see two plausible scenarios.

1) freemasonry is evil at the core and 99% of mason's do not know what they are involved in and are in it for social and charitable reasons.

2) freemasonry is a social club. the reason that most of the founding fathers in america were masons is because it was the 1700's equivalent to a modern day country club. the rest of the presidents who were masons after that was probably just the trickle down effect.

i am leaning strongly toward scenario 2.

i do not care about the esoteric really, so i will make this brief. i believe in a god and a devil. i think they are like the positive and negative charges on a battery. yin and yang, whatever. i believe that you can't have one without the other. god and the devil may hate each other, or be friends, who knows. there are more important things to worry about.


and as for whoever posted the link to the "bio" of albert pike, it wasn't referenced very well. their was no mention of pike being in the klan until after his death. that's just one example of sloppy research in that article. the only mystery about pike is "why did a member of the confederacy get a statue on federal ground?"

back to my original question.

what are your views on "the hiram key" or any other books by the authors?

just curious.

sorry for the double post but i just had to say, this cracks me up.

i can imagine some preacher saying this in his sermon.

Speaking of Pike:

"With negroes for witnesses and jurors, the administration of justice becomes a blasphemous mockery. A Loyal League of negroes can cause any white man to be arrested, and can prove any charges it chooses to have made against him. ...The disenfranchised people of the South ... can find no protection for property, liberty or life, except in secret association.... We would unite every white man in the South, who is opposed to negro suffrage, into one great Order of Southern Brotherhood, with an organization complete, active, vigorous, in which a few should execute the concentrated will of all, and whose very existence should be concealed from all but its members."

(A copy of that issue of Pike's paper may be viewed at the Library of Congress, as may the books mentioned in this article.)

" Albert Pike also wrote extensively on the mythtical super-race of the Aryans, extolling their virtues, imagined history, and religion which he tried to show was the precursor of Freemasonry in is numerous Published Works. It would seem that Pike was a fellow traveller with Blavatsky on this subject. Fifty years later in Central Europe there will be others who will take up this mantle and use these writings as the basis for a ideology that curiously enough will also use the term 'new world order' to describe it's agenda. Just a co-incidence of course."

"Brigadier General Albert Pike organized and lead the African Slave Owning Cherokee Indians in the Oklahoma Territory who were part of the Masonic Knights of the Golden Circle, in their own secret society called the Keetowah. Under Pikes Generalship this Brigade raped, pillaged, and murdered civilian communities in the Oklahoma and Missori Territories. For these "good works" Brother Albert became a Convicted War Criminal in a War Crimes Trial held after the Civil Wars end. Unfortunately the "Pope" and "Plato" of Freemasonry had to be tried in absentia because he had fled to British Territory in Canada. Second Generation British-American Pike has also been alledged to have been working for the Crown as an agent and key civil war agitator. Pike only returned to the U.S. after his hand picked Scottish Rite Succsessor James Richardon 33° got a pardon for him after, making President Johnson a 33° Scottish Mason in a ceremony held inside the White House itself! In fact given Mr. Pikes leadership roll in the Knights of the Golden Circle and the fact that the name Ku Klux Klan is a version of Circle (Kluklos) it seems pretty clear to most researchers who was higher up the secret society occult ladder and therefore more instrumental in the founding of the Klan - Mason/Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forest or Mason/Confederate General/ Knights of the Golden Circle Leader/British Agent/ Scottish Rite Supreme Council Head Albert Pike 33°."

--> http://freemasonrywatch.org/albertpikeandkkk.html <--

KKK: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAkkk.htm

.

*holdin back the laugh*

For the record, even though Rosencruez has offered some good insight into the occult, and Freemasonry, I still think that overall it is not a good thing, and I'm against it. Even if it means that I'm not as enlightened in the knowledge of the mysteries of ancient religions, I'm sticking to Christianity, and Jesus.

I doubt we are getting the real truth from these masons, probably what they want us to think.

I think the occult is the reason for all the bulls*** in this world. We have occult believing leaders who pit religion against religion in the hopes of detroying both and the end result being a world of humanism and new age occult beliefs.

Even in my fraternity we kept things secret because it could get our fraternity closed down if the word got out. We of course didn't do much wrong. The worst thing we did was break into a zoo, and kidnap a duck, as part of our hell week mission for the night.

The masons are free to do what they want as long as I can do what I want. Who am I to judge.

Rosencruez,

My cousin's, friend's dad is a pastor at a church, where one day a very well dressed man came in to his office in an announced visit. Somehow (I forget) they got into an argument, and the pastor realized there was a demon in the visitor. He commanded the evil spirit get out of the man. The visitor suddenly flew back in his chair to the back of the room, and then with his legs flying wildly in the air, started shrieking and speaking in a higher pitched voice: I don't have to leave, I don't have to leave, over and over again. The pastor finally asked why don't you have to leave? The possessed man again in a higher pitched voice replied: Because his grand-father was a mason!

"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry." (pp. 104, 105 & 819)