Okay I'm up late studying for school and I decided to clear a few thoughts in my head here.
I hope someone can give me some useful advice or thoughts here.

As everyone now knows I am no longer Christian however my children still attend church with my ex-husband. My daughter was baptized a few years ago and sunday my son was baptized. After the baptism I accompanied the children to children's church. It was actually pretty cool really. They had races and a guy playing the guitar. It was sort of like a kids woodstock so to speak until.......

Oh God here I go. There is a woman who is minister to the children. She gets up and starts giving this sermon about how Satan will tempt you and how God never tempts you. She gives this grandeous presentation with a butcher knife and apples. She saids the apples are sin and when you call on jesus the knife cuts the sin. Very entertaining and dramatic however I could feel my blood boiling. I remained respectful but I felt thoroughly annoyed as she went on. She began preaching about how God never tempts us, he would never do such a thing. She also preached about how much God loves us.

As I sat there these thoughts ran through my mind; (please don't be offended I just wanted to share this with you). It doesn't make any sense to me folks. Firstly my children are being told that God doesn't tempt us? Yet Abraham was asked to kill his own son in the name of God? I wonder what the children would think if she had said that? What would they think if the church was honest? if the church told them that God gave the okay in the old testament to kill non-believers. That Lot who was so holy he not only offered his daughters up for rape but than slept with them? That this loving God heartened the pharoah's heart to further make him evil?
Why don't they teach the children this in church, its the truth isn't it? http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

I suppose it makes no sense to me folks. I was always taught in church that we are children of God. But would I blind my own children and send them into a place and tell them they had one chance to get it right? Would I tell them they had to hitch hike home and they could only come in if they arrived in a red car? Would I send them blindly into a world of suffering and simply tell them I love them and if they obey me they can come home and if they don't than suffer? Do as i say and not as I do? Do not kill even though I have through the hands of others? The God of the bible to me seems more like director of a movie who fires everyone who doesn't get it right on the first take and as we know even directors have more patience than that. I just begin to wonder what if my children knew the whole story? I feel like the church sugar coats everything to draw the children in and than causes them to fear their own God that they thought once loved them.

These are just my honest thoughts at the moment. I'm in a strange sitaution involving my children. I give them their own choices with religion but feel like my ex-husband brain washes them. I'm struggling with doing the right thing and keeping their choice in the matter intact. I hope I have not offended anyone of faith, it was not my intention to do so.

I believe that was simply a test to see how faithful he was.


As for lot, I believe his daughters who took advantage of him was the actual punishment for what he did when he offered up his daughters.

Bit of a situation there. What's the custody arrangement? How old are the children?

I remember being told that story when I was a child and I thought it was sick....it's sick to ask someone to kill an innocent child just to show how one is faithful....this is another reason as to WHY I don't follow the bible

Stargazer, I understand your feelings on this subject. It sounds to me that you should maybe shop around and find a Sunday School with a preacher you feel comfortable with. This way you won't be rejecting your ex's beliefs outright, just trying for a compromise. I'd think very hard before educating your children in what many percieve to be "wrong" in the Bible; it could cause nasty recriminations between your ex and yourself and the kids would be caught in the middle through no fault of their own. I'm sure they'll become aware of this on their own terms.

this is a subject I have just started to think about as well. I am non religious and so is my girl but we are due our first child in August and I was thinking will my child be religious if I let them make there own mind up.

what I see the problem is , is that your kids are not gettinga balanced religious education...do they do much at school on other religions?? Your ex husband taking them to church although perhaps not as sinister as brain washing is certainly putting pressure on them to believe a certain things.

education education education.... this is the thing that will stop wars and inter religious hate.

fingers crossed eh

It doesnt matter how much they "sugar coat" the children...as long as the children are sweet- then i dont see the harm in them going to a church even with such dramatic and rather silly demonstrations (knife and apple etc.) Churches do actually hide the more negative bits of the Bible- but there are some churches that challenge and dispute the violence found in the Bible which is admirable..Theyre saying "yes this and that happened- and in our opinion this is why". Its better to be truthful- but if the church is teaching your kids love and more the moral values found in the Bible they really should be fine.

First, there are biblical scholars who think the story of Abraham was invented and used to convince people who believed that God had at one time asked for human sacrifices to stop doing it. Can look on last page of Leviticus to see those "doomed to God".
It would have been difficult to convince the people who had the threat of the priests over them to pay up or die that the priests were lying, so they invented a story that predated the formation of the priesthood to convince them the practice was not required.

Many biblical scholars also believe that animal sacrifrices were also an invention of the priesthood as were the human ones.

All of the minor prophets and Stephen in the NT speak out that blood sacrifices of all types and a temple to house God had never been asked for by God.

However, that does not really solve your problem.

If you cannot get your husband to take the children to a less fundementalist church, then in order for them to see a different way from theirs you yourself might want to take them to a more enlightened church of some time.

If you do not want to do that, you might want to start teaching them ancient history at home to show them how barbaric the civilizations of the past were and explain that the people who wrote many of the texts in church came from those times and could not understand things back then the way that we can now.

Whichever road you choose you may have to warn them to be silent on their knowledge when they are in the fundementalist church to avoid persecution by them. A little history on fundementalsim could help there. Seeing as how they are in a Baptist church they will be taught that Catholics are evil. You could point out that both Protestants and Catholics did evil things in points in time when fundementalists ruled them.

Learning about fundementalism would also help them in understanding current events in the Middle East.

see as I said...Education.....coming from someone that hated school

*I believe that was simply a test to see how faithful he was???* I believe if murder could be justified so easily then our population would be far from what it is now...


Ramster83, it is not just fine... Love, moral and justice can, believe it or not, very well be taught without any kind of religion taking advantage of little children. If the church only talks about the good sides of the bible, then a small child who is not able to think for himself will not only learn how to behave, but will also take the existance of god as a fact since he has been told he is real and he has been told wonderful stories about this character. Now this is called taking advantage of someone. Later on, when this child is a bit older and already has formed a strong faith for christianity he is enlightened about all the murders, tortures and massacres that took place because of the will of god. It's just like giving someone a drug that cures common cold for example. The person uses it for quite some time and later he is mentioned: " By the way, this drug has the following side-effects: Dizziness, increased chance of having a heart attack, diarrhoea and so on." The drug use can be just stopped, but if someone has been brainwashed by a religion form a young age then the person wont throw away something he has been taught his whole life just because he finally received "the full package." Instead this person will live in fear due to the new information he received. Now if this person would have not been taught from a young age, if people would have waited him to age and wait for his ability to think for himself form, then he might have chosen to not believe.

I think we all agree that religion is something important and should not be taken lightly. Religion, as most people think, should also be everyones free will. I think we also all agree that the age limit for smoking, alcohol and gambling is there for a reason. Why? Because small children are not fully able to comprehend what is best for them, just like they are not able to figure out if religion (not just christianity, all religions) is real and if it is the right and best thing for them. Why don't you churches take a place in line with the casinos, smoking & alcohol industry and wait for the children to grow up!

If picking a church- the Uniting church is usually one of the better less extreme friendly type of churches...not always- but in general.

Children are so impressionable when at the age where they can attend Sunday school and everything the teacher says and does, (like the dramatics in your experience), imprints upon that little mind another trait that makes up; "god". Because they are first led to believe this image is the parent of all parents, and any child knows the awesomeness of that already, just at home. But to impart god is stern and angry and vengeful, is to impart fear into the child in acting and behaving as one, for fear of bringing down that wrath of parents generally. Since one's folks are that present disciplinarian, much less what the churches say is waiting after life! Can you but imagine the fear an angry god imparts to a child's understanding of an upset mom or dad!? (Can any of us remember our Sunday school experience as kids? )

That's why I think it's important to commit to teaching the opposite of that negative portrayal that one's child might encounter in a church setting. Either during the class, and in it's proper time and context, or at home later but on the day, so that one's son or daughter learns that there is a difference; That god is love, and the fearful god is mans.

You teach the children about christianity when they are young, so they can grow up with it, and make there own beliefs later. A child cannot comprehend certain parts of the story of the bible, because a lot of it takes on a much deeper thought when it comes to the life and time of that era. You tell a child " yes, they sacrificed animals to the gods " , and they ask you why, and you simply tell them " cause, in those times, that was the just thing to do ". To them it may seem confusing, it's best to teach them more indepth as time goes on I find.

You shelter them from the carnage, because a child does not need to hear about certain things until they get older. You wouldn't let your child watch an " R " rated horror movie, or an action movie where people are dying left right and center, then it's the same with religious teaching. You may find it wrong, or unfit, but what is in this world ?. Are you going to tell your child that eventually he/she is going to die ?, tell them about the stresses of life ?, that thousands of people die daily in suicides, vehicle crashes and wars ?. I hope you do not, personally, during grade school, and high school I was taught in my catholic school about some of the other sides of the story of the bible. However, being much more informed and being able to comprehend history, religion, and mankind all together, I was able to make a much better decesion based on my own faith and belief. As a non-beleiver, it's hard to see them tip-toe around the things you dislike about the bible, but as a parent, I would hope you would understand the way of teaching they use, until your children are able to question some of the teachings of the bible.

Very well said...and you are right...a child cant understand parts of the bible...the more you preach parts of the bible to a child the more confused it will get

PS I take it an R rated movie is the same as the 18 rated movies over here??? LOL

LoL, pretty much :-), not for childrens eyes.

And in the mean time, as children are taught by the Sunday school teacher in language they can understand, what does it communicate in describing a creator god that kills his children at his own discretion, for committing even the slightest wrong, while instilling in those children that they must obey all of god's laws and be repentant, to insure they go to heaven, irregardless of the fact that the Bible also teaches that god, that made those rules of morality, is his own first sinner?

The ideal model in this is to never have your child exposed to the hypocrisy inherent in the Judeo-Christian testament.This is not to indict all Christians as hypocrites. There are those that dare think for themselves and are blessings as representatives of compassion, tolerance and enlightenment. Which is the true spirit of the Christ. Rather, those I speak of are of the opinon if the bible says it they believe it and that's it. Which in itself is indictable as ignorance of the very tome they revere. For if they did know and continued to think like that they would not to be surprised when someone stones them to death for violating god's law and working on a Sunday!
And there are some that will say the Old Testament was put away with the advent of Jesus and that today Christians are subject to the New. However that is contradictory to god's own words. James2:10-11. And all of Romans 8. Because the laws of god one is to cleave to eternally, were committed to the Old Testament. Therefore, a "True" Christian would be reflected in one claiming to be a Christian Jew, if the book is to be believed. Which makes for the potential of dire consequence for those other proselytizing denominations that dare to go door to door and sell Jesus, because god says you should be killed for doing that. (Death by stoning for apostatizing from the true religion or
practicing a different religion:Exodus 22:20 Deuteronomy 17:1-5 )

Proverbs 22:6
Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it.

Teach a child to honor god by honoring the life they were given by that which some call; "goddess" and "god". Inspire them to honor themselves because they are all they have to carry on this journey with. Set the example that instills in them respect for the parent(s) that gave them this opportunity. And respect also those that share the journey with them so that they are not alone.

Do that and one can never say their child does not have a relationship with god. For if they respect themselves as that which is created to create a life, they are as god(s), and if they honor themselves first they must honor others, which would be a blessing for us all.




*link edit*

Sta< i am so sorry to hear of your experince as a mother i can only imagine how you must feel, i would run from that establishment, save religon for a alittle later in life it will come up its darn near impossible to miss, I remeber the first time my son came home and wanted to know why in the world would his freinds beleive in the devil and hell and such silliness, that is when you start teaching of the differnet constructs and that we don't make fun of others we explore why they think as they do......I do not find the bible serves as any kind of 'great' teaching that my kids would ever have to worry about missing out on, It often cripples children emoitionally and as people i think it would impede my job as a parent make it harder than it needs to be. Good grief i can't for the life of me rationalize teaching a child they are unworthy and sinful by nature that is just absurd, or terrifing a child with those storys, I'd focus more on guiding my child in loving himself and honoring himself throught he truth he finds inside, i see no benefit to hampering his journey by teaching him how to be intolerant and to look to others for truth above himself....anyhoo sorry to hear of this Namaste Sheri

Did you tell your child Santa Claus is fake, and the easter bunny doesn't exist either ?

I tell my kids the truth-it's just stories, some of which have a grain of truth, and the meaning is the only important thing, not whether it really happened. I have two sone, who live with my exwife. They know enough to tune out anything vaguely smacking of xianity, anD I didn't have to teach them this, they figured it out.

What murder? If God would have wanted him to do it, he wouldn't have stopped him.

Deuteronomy 12:31 (New International Version)
You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.


God hates those things.

Some holidays are just silly, but whatever floats your boat i say....

I personaly hate all holidays.

You would possibly appreciate Hypers guide to the holidays then, Why do you hate the holidays??

Why? They're boring and pointless.

What's so boring about them?? and pointless for that matter? is it because no one bothers with you on the holidays or buys you gifts? I take it you don't work for a living Zero..after all you did say in another thread you don't get tired till 8am and you are on line every night...so you don't go nowhere therefore you don't get the holidays off like the rest of us or a holiday bonuses like we do.....therfore you will say ohh their pointless

This all reminded me of one of the prime rules of satanism:

It is forbidden to harm children!

...

No, I am not a satanist, I just happened to have that info and thought that it would be an interesting thing to share, used to know all of the rules, I think I got them from a worshiper, he didn't seemed like a mad person or anything, and, pardon me but, he was much nicer than some christians (but his house was the darkest I have ever seen, with a shrine and everything, lovely ).
BTW, those people that sacrifice or harm children in any way are not true satanists, but crazy psychos who believe to be doing the right thing when all the info they got about that religion is from hollywood movies...