I have been thinking recently about god and religion, I myself being borderline agnostic atheist and I am wondering how any religion can still be considered the true word of god.

Who's to say that the way people worship today is as god (if he exists) originally intended, that is indeed if he intended us to "worship" him at all. It has all been twisted by man in some form or other to meet someone's own ends whether it be to make more people go to church or to convince people to strap themselves with explosives and blow themselves up in a public place. Wasn't the bible itself edited at some point in history?
My point being that religion has become so diluted that it is impossible to know for sure if that is what god would really want.
Any thoughts?

True, but it all comes down to faith sometimes.

Religion is exactly they way God wanted it to be. I know this because control-hungry rulers tell me so.




All the gospels and such were originally letters and were written separately by apostles. They really didn't intend for their words to become law, but they did. The first bible was mostly jewish history and traditions, although some parts were considered angel-worship and were removed from the bible. However, those removed parts were kept in synagogues because they described important Jewish events, such as Haunakah(sp?).
Revelation was written several hundred years after Jesus's death, and there were great arguments about whether it should be put in or not. Basically, the bible wasn't complete as we know it until the 11th century or so. It is stories collected from multiple authors and sources over the span of hundreds of years.

Now, this is not even getting into all the practices that the various denominations have carried out over the centuries. Would God want people to sell indulgences?

I'm not saying this to insult people, but the bible didn't descend from the heavens in one complete whole. Perhaps if it did, then it would have saved a lot of trouble.

Is true...thats all it is FAITH.

In general though....people do think it's really Gods word and they see it as fact..the worth faith doesnt apply to them...that to me is ignorance....when someone sits and dictates to another on where they will end p if they don't believe...actually beliee it to be actual fact

I have rarely seen a christian say....."Well its really on my faith...I don't know for sure" they wont...cuz a lot of them see it as fact

Faith IMO goes Hand in hand with you can't sell blue sky, Basically there is nothing there but heresay, Its like looking at an empty spot saying well I have faith this will be a money tree....forwards 20 years later still an empty spot.....IMO this is little to blue sky for me lol Namaste sheri

But imagine going through all of life believing that you were following the word of god, carrying out his work, serving him and doing what he wanted only to find out that you were really only obeying rules and ideals that had been simply made up by man, no divinity involved whatsoever. With all the restrictions religion imposes you would have wasted your life.

If I found that out. I'd have to say

"Oh well, whatever".

No life is wasted...If you see that then you have missed the point, do You know only about 4% of the population gets to this clarity???You have simply remebered that 'divinity isn't outside of you, this is cause for celebration not sadness....Namaste sheri

Perhaps "wasted" was too strong a word on my part, and you are right no life is completely wasted as everyone makes their own mark on the world in some way or another. What I was trying to say was that would you not be frustrated thinking of what you could have done were it not for the restrictions of religion and that the foundations of your beliefs were not at all commandments sent by the diety in which you believe.

So exactly which of the Judeo-Christian ten commandments seems to be holding you back from enjoying your life more fully somehow, or would it you followed them?

I was not refering directly to the ten commandments I was using commandments as a general term for religious rules.

You know what's intresting? A lot of NB's lead very good lives.....they don't harm others, they believe in a loving enviorment and yet holy people will still say...ohh if you don't believe you will go to hell...........how anyone can say such a horrible thing is beyond me

Truth is...you don't have to be religious or follow God to leave a good life...and in the end of it all ...if a NB had lead such a nice life (loving ect) they don't care what awaits them....they have had their time of joy and freedom here and now

I think of this game we used to play as children. we would sit in a circle and one person would whisper something into someone's elses ear all the way around the circle. By the time you got back to the beginning person the whole story had changed sometimes a little and sometimes dramatically. Stories are going to change over the course of time and I believe it applies to religious stories as well. this is why personally I take what resonates from within and I don't depend soley on the writings of men who are full of flaws to establish the beginning story.

However some people are religious and do not take every story literally in their religion but they cling to the basis for inspiration. Others believe every story and perhaps it is what resonates for them and their way of faith. just my thoughts.

Chinese whispers you mean I think.

No not at all, Often in finding who we are it helps to know and experince who we aren't, I enjoy a loving and inspiring and whole partnership now becasue of a failed marrige, the failed marriage was instrumental in the direction I have grown, i learned that all failures lead to success and they are gifts. Think of what you can now do without the baggage of illusion, i can tell you you will embrace life in a new way and as Bec's ma said you may just find you rather enjoy living without fear and conditons and "faux comforts" that all you ever needed was in you to begin with, i see your journey as exciting and fun and inspiring.. Gosh i remember the moment you are at so fondly i was over joyed at the prospect of anything is possible ( I was 7 years old) I have loved life ever since.....

I can agree with you there. One of the best things that ever happened to me was the end of a very serious relationship. Yes, I was heart broken, but the way it changed me was worth it a hundred times over.

Was that just Zero that posted that???? J/K very well said from one who is enlightened and very wise for his young years....Namaste sheri

Well it appears I have managed to stray from the original idea of one of my threads once again but ah well. No doubt dramatic or saddening events change character or help one appreciate a good thing even more when it happens, I too have been and done the whole relationship change thing. I am 17 thank you very much only took me 10 years more than you Sheri!

Well it doesn't matter the age IMO 17 is not exactly 'old ' either, Zero meet the doctor , the doctor meet zero, he's our resident 17 year old with a bit of wisdom under his belt just like you welcome to UM enjoy....namaste sheri

P>S> I was Alot older on the relationship thing Zero has me beat lol.....

Not sure really. But all in all a great learning game for me as a kid, how quickly one thing can become another through time and perception.

And very smart with a great demeanor for 17 I might add.

me at 17: selfish, rude, disrespectful, invulnerable, and mouthy.
However I believe age is just a number, especially when my daughter at the age of 5 told me i was being irrational!

Me too at 17 I was the same but I do belive that the more you age the more wisdom you pick up

You too huh?

I agree with you that you can gain wisdom through age but I have also seen so many cases where younger people impart more wisdom than people twice their age.

But than again what you say makes sense to a great degree because children, adolecentss, and adults have much different thinking processes most of the time.

To address the original question...

The Bible (especially the OT) and the Torah should not be considered in actuality to be the absolute words of [G-d], rather they are better understood as the authors' words which, in each author's opinion or interpretation, emanated from their respective relationships with [G-d]. Logically, it doesn't make sense that [G-d] would need to write a book to get the message out to the population if [G-d] is omniscient and omnipotent. If so, then [G-d]'s message would be inherent to the human consciousness and there would be no need for a Bible or a Torah because every one would be born with the knowledge that [G-d] deems necessary for humanity.

i think kids are not all bogged down with conditioning till about high school, then they become I know all there is to know, there is something pure in a childs openess, but the amazing things they say are most likely things theyve heard somewhere, I'm with Bec's ma there is alot to be said for age and the accrued wisdom that comes from it, i also think a few hard knocks go very far in adding to the depth of a person, with out good and challenging experinces what can you really know?? i'd prefer to sit with a wise old person anyday whose been there wthen with one who thinks they know ya know...., not to say that certain kids that are raised by such people don't exist but its like anything the longer you are at something the better it is......

[quote name='mklsgl' date='Mar 3 2006, 05:41 PM' post='1089110']
To address the original question...

The Bible (especially the OT) and the Torah should not be considered in actuality to be the absolute words of [G-d], rather they are better understood as the authors' words which, in each author's opinion or interpretation, emanated from their respective relationships with [G-d]. Logically, it doesn't make sense that [G-d] would need to write a book to get the message out to the population if [G-d] is omniscient and omnipotent. If so, then [G-d]'s message would be inherent to the human consciousness and there would be no need for a Bible or a Torah because every one would be born with the knowledge that [G-d] deems necessary for humanity

.Exactly inherent in every living thing is Lifes/gods message one doesn't need a guide , those books are ones understandings of life/god what it meant to them not literal.....gods word....I think of them as a journalling of sorts...

i see what your saying Sheri. But there are also many older people who think they know it all as well. My grandmother always used to say that true wisdom is realizing you don't know everything. Perhaps it is also having understanding behind knowledge.

I wouldn't mind sitting down with a wise old person as well but on the other hand I feel I can gain wisdom through everyone, even the know-it-alls.

If the word of God is still not around- then show your faith through thoughts and actions. If one doesnt know how to "worship" a God- then be honest to yourself. The most important thing is to be a good person. I reckon if God exists- being a good person heightens your chances of a happier afterlife. Who knows what God wants maybe its nothing at all....Maybe we've caused the fear and paranoia when there was none to begin with.
What if God wants us to be happy? What if he wants us to have fun? What if he wants us to enjoy life that he gave to us...What if theres no hell? The main idea is to follow God in your own way, whatever way your comfortable with and see what happens...

wow Ramster a very good post, it would make sense to me if you are gonna beleive in a 'god' construct probably the koolest god would be the place to start huh?? this current one is manmade anyhoo so why not make up a better one a gentler kinder version who may even want you to be happy, hell what about insists you are happy...wow iimagine that lol namaste sheri

Why thank you
Anywho, ramster that was a good post and it made sense to me. I suppose although religion may have been twisted in many cases to meet someone's own ends it has also been used to make many people's lives better and help people in need. I'm still on the fence over the existence of god but if he is real then I think being a good person would be what he would want.