This book of Daniel is full of interesting prophecy. The '70 week' prophecy is only one. Is this evidence of the bibles divine origin.

Here is the text, and below is a link explaining its meaning. The site is quite long, but worth reading by those who discredit the bibles divine origins. WARNING Reading this may change your mind!

THE TEXT.

24 Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

26 And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, [i];
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one
week; But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.
Daniel 9:24-27 (NKJV)


THE LINK.[u] http://www.truthnet.org/dan70.html

The problem is that the hebrew word used for cut off is "kareit" which refers to being spiritually cut off from one's people due to sin. So, unless Yeshu was sinful, as usual, the xians are barking up the incorrect torah tree. I suggest for you to go to http://p069.ezboard.com/fmessiahtruthfrm1, you might not only change your mind about spouting this drivel, especially to jews, and you might learn something for once.

I closed the book forever in genesis lol namaste sheri

naw, try a jewish translation of the Hebrew part. You might be a little surprised. Not that you would convert to Judiasm, but you would find that none of the n.t. makes any sense.

Listen Gideon, its about time you actually got clued up about what you are actually attempting to discredit. Although Yeshu was sinless he took upon him the sins of mankind. He was 'spiritually cut off' from God the Father, and in a sense yes Yeshu was a sinner, not his own sins but mine and yours,- he 'took the blame' for sinners so to speak, he paid the price of our sins!! You really are ignorant to Christian theology and it is getting a bit tedious to have to keep correcting you for your erroneous points. You make claims that this word means this or that, and therefore it cannot be compatible with christian theology when every time it is exactly compatible, sometimes it is even the very point that christians are trying to make!

Tags , why in the world do you beleive that??? Religon if you follow the history of the inception of religon wants to stay in buisness, it had and has creted a system to do just this in the attempt to preserve religon..., , what a far fetched idea to come up with why a mass amount of people would allow for the murder of their Messiah? Or as Gid said its made up....

Why do I believe this? Because the O Test was written and completed long before jesus was born. Because he fulfills over 300 prophesies contained in it. Because too many of them are accurate to be mere coincidence or to give christians the oppertunity to twist as some claim. The sheer volume and accurracy demands and compells belief. Invest some time exploring prophesy and see for yourself.
I agree some religion are wanting to stay in business including some christian denominations, but this does not detract from the fact that these prophesies were written hundreds of years before messiah, and jesus fulfills them all to the letter! Its more than good enough for me.
Why did they allow for the murder of thier messiah? because they did not believe he was messiah! just as some people do not believe that jesus was messiah today,- and they have the benefit of hindsight! I am glad that you think that such an idea is far fetched, as that proves that only God could really 'pull it off', thats the point, it is so amazingly accurate that it sounds farfetched to think it could have actually happened, but it did.

Makes no sense in that it fulfills everything shadowed in the hebrew part?

NOT IF YOU CHECK THE HEBREW. And the n.t. was all written or rewritten almost 400 years later, so who cares?

Arn't we talking about a book and series of manuscripts/books that were written over hundreds of years by many many authors each with different political goals. Now I don't know the answer to this taggs so it is a straight question. What proof do you have or know of, that these prophecies were written before the event and not after.


G

since the writers of the nt took about 400 years, it would be seriously surprising if less than 100% of the "prophecies" were fulfilled. Hindsight is a perfect author of prophecy.

The problem is that the people who wrote the N.T. only had knowledge of the main prophecies, there was no way they could be aware of some prophecies that were only discovered in the 20th century. But even if you think that the writers of the N.T. wrote it in order to fullfill the prophecies the you must the discard the theory that it is a plagiarism from mythraism or other cults.

And please, don't start confunding life these days with the life in the roman era, an evangelist would have no envolvement in politics.

believe me i'm not confusing life today with roman times, and I didn't mention any evangelist, but you have to admit the bible has been rewritten many time ( or parts there of ).

and can I ask ...whats with your signiture comment. now I may be wrong here but you seem to be justifying the inqusition by quoting other trerrible events with greater casualties, i'm sure i'm wrong but can you confirm that for me

But it is both. The fake prophecies and the plagiarism from Mithras were both felt necessary to impress the pagan audience of the fourth century reconstructed Roman Empire. The Jews had, understandably, rejected Jesus around the time of his demise. Theodosius wasn't interested in impressing the Jews. Such nonsense as the virgin birth fill both categories. Isaiah's announcement of the impending birth of his own child Immanuel is twisted craftily into the Virgin Mary. The Jews would not have been interested in yet one more virgin pagan myth. When you consider that the n.t. was mainly a tool to force mass conversion of pagans. By the fourth century, the Jews were a shattered remnant, and hardly worthy of attracting to Xianity, the new paganism. The xian church only much later became the new Amalekites, destroying Jews that got in their way (mainly by breathing).

(C&P)

Roman persecution of Jewish Christians is an important building block in this study. It confirms both their existence and visibility and, in the case of the account of the trial of the grandsons of Judas, provides a glimpse into the content of their theology.



B. Conflict with Rabbinic Judaism [64]

The immediate impression created by the Rabbinic statements regarding the minim is of a bitter struggle between the two. The Rabbinic writings contain strong condemnation of the minim) and natzorim. [65] However, since most of those called minim were Jewish Christians, the two words frequently are synonymous in meaning. The sharpness of the Rabbinic hatred for Jewish Christianity is first seen in their violent attack upon Jesus. He was pictured as a magician, described as "Balaam," and denounced as a "godless one." Jesus was called mamzer (of spurious birth); his father was said to be a soldier named "Panther" (Pandera) who seduced Mary. [66] This and other derogatory traditions were common in the Jewish world and used in the Jewish hostile lives of Jesus (Toldoth Jesu). [67]

Examples of Rabbinic contempt for Jewish Christians are numerous. [68] The sentiments behind these statements are illustrated by a number of incidents which are reported throughout the Talmud and Midrash. Perhaps the best known is the case of R. Eleazar ben Dama, R. Ishmael (first half of second century), and Jacob the Min of Chephar (or Kefar) Sama (or Sechanja). [69] Ben Dama had been bitten by a snake, Jacob came to heal him "in the name, of Jeshu ben Pandira." Ben Dama was confident that Jacob could perform the miracle, but R. Ishmael would not allow the healing. When ben Dama died from the snake bite R. Ishmael pronounced a blessing upon him because he had not broken through the "fence of the wise." Similarly, when Hananiah, the nephew of R. Joshua came under the influence of the minim at Capernaum his uncle dealt with him as if he were crazy or possessed and banished him from the land (Midrash Rabbah, Eccles. I:8).

Apparently the minim refused to withdraw voluntarily from the synagogue. From the viewpoint of the Christian who regarded faith in Jesus as the extension or fulfillment of Judaism, withdrawal from the synagogue was unnecessary. This posed a number of concerns for the Rabbis. The Jewish Christians posed both a disrupting influence and a threat from within. For an example, some Jews refused to pray for the rebuilding of Jerusalem. [70] Both the ancient and modern versions of this petition, the fourteenth, make reference to the reestablishment of the Davidic reign. [71] In his commentary on the Jerusalem) Talmudic passage involved, Travers Herford notes the association of the restoration of Jerusalem and of the Davidic dynasty in the benediction. He then comments, "But it is not clear to me why the omission of that prayer should be characteristic of a min. So far as I know, the point is never raised in the polemical discussions of Jews with minim." [72]

Another illustration of the problem posed by the presence of this group is the Rabbinic discussions of how to handle the books of the Jewish Christians. This presented the Rabbis with a special problem since these writings contained the name of God. Nevertheless, it was generally agreed that in spite of the divine name these books were to be destroyed, even on the Sabbath when necessary. [73] This decision against the books of the minim not only shows the hatred of the Rabbis for the Jewish Christians, but also their fear of them. Fear of the minim is obviously rooted in a conviction that contact with them would defile and corrupt the pure sons of Israel. This fear included the possibility of subtle, sub-conscience influence contact with the minim might exert. The first century rabbi, Eliezer, could not understand why he had been arrested "for Minuth." After his release he came to realize that the probably cause was that he had once been pleased by a word from a min. [74] Even more the fear of the minim probably testifies to the effectiveness of some Jewish Christian missionaries in converting members of the synagogue. [75]

It was fear of these dangers that must have prompted Rabbi Gamaliel and his associates, sometime before the end of the first century, to alter the Jewish synagogue liturgy. It was fear of these dangers that must have prompted Rabbi Gamaliel and his associates, sometime before the end of the first century, to alter the Jewish synagogue liturgy. This involved a change in the twelfth benediction of the Shemoneh 'Esreh (The Eighteen Benedictions [berakhoth] of The Daily Prayer) to contain a condemnation of Jewish Christians. [76] This effectively excluded them from synagogue worship and continuing participation in Jewish life [77] -- their enthusiasm for corporate prayer would be understandably dampened if in doing so they prayed for their own damnation. From that time onward the break between Judaism and Christianity was final; as far as the synagogue was concerned, the Church was banned.

Thus increasingly the Jewish Christians were forced into isolation within their own country. Jewish slanderous reports of immoral practices within the private meetings of Christians [78] suggest the air of secrecy and suspicion which often surrounds a group that more or less has withdrawn from the mainstream of society. Several times the Rabbinic writers mention contact with Christians in Chephar Sama (or Sechanja), Sepphoris, and Capernaum, thus hinting at the existence of Christian communities in these areas. [79] If the Palestinian Christians were forced into separate communities, it was probably a gradual development, only the beginning of which occurred before A.D. 100.

Rabbinic writings also indicate that at least some Jewish Christians disregarded the strict observance of the Shabbath. [80] Another characteristic of the Jewish Christians revealed in the Talmud and Midrash is their performing of healing and other miracles. [81] The genuineness of these healings and miracles was usually accepted by the Rabbis. [82] Nevertheless, the feeling against the minim was so strong that, as already observed, they refused to accept benefit from these wonders.

The Rabbinic discussions and writings reveal very little about the theology of the minim. Of course, the salient feature stated or implied about the belief of the minim was their convictions about Jesus as the Messiah. The minim were charged with believing in several Powers in Heaven and asserting that there was a created being who assisted in the work of creation [83] .

In general the results of a survey of Rabbinic evidence about the Jewish Christians is vague, uncertain, and disappointing. Nevertheless, certain general conclusions may be drawn from them.

They are represented as a kind of spurious Jews, vainly claiming fellowship with true Judaism and rejected because of their connection with Christianity. They were in Judaism, but not of it. They frequented the synagogues, where suspicion of them found expression in liturgical devices for their detection, and in the noting of various phrases and gestures which were thought to betray their heresy. In their theology . . . they departed from the strict monotheism of Judaism, and held the doctrine of the relation between God and Christ which [according to Herford] is set forth in the Epistle to the Hebrews. [84]

In addition the practice of Christians living in separate communities may have begun by the end of the first century and these locations seem to have been the site for healings and miracles. The Rabbis were aware of a body of literature which the minim used, recorded that at least some Palestinian Christians did not observe the Sabbath, and that they had separated nationalistic goals from their religious outlook.

Of major significance for our study is that the severity of the struggle between Rabbis and Jewish Christianity confirms both their post-AD 70 existence and that they were numerically strong enough to be a threat to the Jewish leaders. Furthermore it seems that their missionary activities may have enjoyed some success.

In case you did not notice this part.

Some skeptics have not challenged the content of Daniel's prophetic accuracy. Rather than admit that his words are indeed inspired, they have labeled his book a fraud. They claim that it was not written by Daniel in the sixth century B.C, as we can tell by events written of in the book, but was penned by an unknown author sometime after 200 B.C. , long after many of the events prophesied in the book came to pass. This, critics allege, is the reason for the book's startling prophetic accuracy.

They dispute Daniel's authorship because he refers to himself in the early chapters in the third person, as if writing about someone else. However, as Gleason L. Archer Jr. points out in The Expositor's Bible Commentary, this "was the custom among ancient authors of historical memoirs . . ." (Vol. 7, p. 4). In relating some of his experiences Daniel did write in the first person (Daniel 7:15; 8:15; 9:2; 10:2).

The identity of Daniel's critics is significant as well. The first person to question the authenticity of Daniel's authorship was the Greek scholar and historian Porphyry, who lived A.D. 233-304. He is labeled by historians as a Neoplatonist, which means he subscribed to the doctrines of the Greek philosopher Plato rather than the Bible. "Porphyry is well known as a violent opponent of Christianity and defender of Paganism" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, 11th edition, Vol. 22, p. 104, s.v. "Porphyry").

Since Porphyry was an enemy of Christianity, his objectivity is open to question. He had no factual basis for his opinion, and his view contradicted the testimony of Jesus Christ, who referred to Daniel as the author of the book (Matthew 24:15). Thereafter no one took Porphyry's remarks seriously again until many centuries later.

any proof gideon? you are great at making statements and even better at providing no proof for them. i only have the will to keep correcting you in case someone might actually read one of your posts and believe it!!

Check out that site gideon suggested itll help you understand the bible better.

Please remind it is not only the book of Daniel that makes prophecies about the Messiah, there are literaly hundreds of books that make prophecies about him.

And no, I won't admit the Bible has ever been rewritten (polished, corrected some mistranslations yes, but not redited). It is yet to come the proof that makes me change my opinion about that.

My sig is not justifying the Inquisition, I used to have this sig in a political forum I used to frequent, it is instead comdemning both the liberal revolution and comunism, nothing more.

I had another one, something like: «Today, Marx's fame is greater than Jesus'. One thing is certain, his ideology has sent more souls to hell». As you can see those setences are not justifying the past actions of Christianism, instead they are using Christianism as a bad example.

The post I made that shows the Christian religion and early writings existed and were not all made up out of different pagan religions by Rome came from Rabbinical writings.
Modern jews may say what they wish, but they cannot erase the early existence of Christianity without destroying their own ancient texts that contain references to it.

Just stop and think for a moment. Why do you think the Jews not only rejected your Yeshu 2000 years ago, but continue to do so. After 1500 years of pogroms, executions, the Inquisition, the crusades and the Holocaust, you guys can't either convince them or kill them off. Gee, maybe they did the right thing and continue to do so. Give it up.

Thats a no brainer.
More than likely the same reason everyone did not become a Protestant along with Martin Luthor.

As for the endless drumroll of of barbarity in history.
All nations of every race and religion commited atrocities through history.
That is the human race and thought it still has vast room for improvement, it is doing better.

(And the Nazis were neo-pagans, not Christians.)

Hitler was a self-proclaimed Catholic. The Catholic Church, along with many other christian bodies, either supported the holocaust openly or turned their backs on it knowingly. If anything, as a group, they worshipped satan. I am so thrilled that you understand that the Jews have the same right to reject xianity as the catholics to reject protestantism, or islam, or momonism.

Publically at a point, the same as publically at a point he always seemed to have just one more "last' teritorial demand.

(C&P)

The German Occult Orders
While it is true that the various German mystical societies borrowed some of their ideas from Hermetic/Rosicrucian groups in England and from Theosophists on the continent, some of their principles are different. In particular, their emphasis on the mystical powers of the Aryan race and its resulting 'decline' and degeneration from miscegnation with lower races is a unique idea. Their Teutonophilism - interest in the Runes, Nordic myths, and the Swastika (along with the belief that Christianity had broken the back of Teutonic civilization) - came out of the general climate attendant with the new pan-Germanic nationalism. The idea that all the languages of Europe had one Indo-European source, and that many of the world's myths (from the Hindus to the Greeks) had a common 'Aryan' origin was gaining ground among respectable philologists and antiquarians8. Many Russians in 1905 were already promoting the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as evidence that the inferior Semitic races were trying to bring about Bolshevism and the downfall of Europe.

Guido von Liszt (founder of the Germanorden) may not have been as important in the Nazi pantheon as Oswald Spengler and Alfred Rosenberg, who both advanced the belief that the West was in decline from the onslaught of "Magianism" or the "World Cavern" philosophy of the Oriental Semites, which was in direct contrast to the Apollonian or Faustian guiding principle of 'no limits' which governed the European/Aryan races9. Both reacted in horror to the "primitive" African, Latino, and Polynesian elements that artists like Picasso and Gauguin were importing into Western art, a clear sign of 'degeneration.' Not unlike some anti-rock music phillistines today, they heard the "savage jungle beats of the tom-tom drum" in jazz and much of modern music, and found the soaring Wagnerian operas much more to their liking. The German mystical societies essentially saw a coming struggle between the forces of materialism and relativism and that of true, Aryan, spiritual civilization - a struggle that would be apocalyptic and where there could be no quarter whatsoever afforded for the enemy. Therein lay the roots of Nazism and the Holocaust.

Tags right there lies the answer "amazingly accurate" some religons are a buisness, just not yours correct??Its my understanding that Jesus had already lived at the compilation of the books that would be chosen to go into the OT, by Constantine ( who wanted to bring society to a more religious viewpoint preserve it....I'm not a buff on the history , so if this is incorrect someone will come in and correct...There was alot left out which found its way into the book of the qu'ran....I'd say you are very guillable no offense, but if i wanted to stay in buisness especially the buisness of 'god' i'd have free rein becasue none of it can be proven and 'faith' is the only way possible to beleive this, my gut tells me there is no truth to this at all, Now on how almighty 'god' is your standards aren't very high is what I'd say to that.....lol namaste sheri

Again Bela you post before you research!

Google "nazis+christian" and see what you get:

The following photos provide a pictorial glimpse of Hitler, how his Nazis mixed religion with government, and the support for Hitler by the Protestant and Catholic Churches in Germany. In, no way, does this gallery of photos intend to support Nazism or anti-Semitism, but instead, intends to warn against them.

Source


The Nazis were Christians too.

An interview with Richard Steigman-Gall,
author of The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity,
1919-1945.

At a time when right-wing Christians are exerting great influence over White House policy, it is perhaps time to ask if all Christian influence is good influence.

The current situation has some surprising parallels with Nazi Germany. Richard Steigman-Gall of Kent State University has recently released a book which examines the influence of Christian beliefs on Nazi Germany. In the past historians have argued that Nazis publicly posed as Christians to score political points, but privately deplored the religion. However, Steigman-Gall has reached a very different conclusion by looking at the diaries, private writings and communications of the most influential Nazis, including Hitler. Far from deploring Christianity, many important Nazis felt that their racist policies were inspired by Protestant Christianity.

How could Christianity be the inspiration for the Final Solution? And does this suggest ominous parallels with the current influence of right-wing Protestants in the United States? The Turning’s Stephen Milton spoke to Dr Steigman-Gall to find out.


The Turning: Did leading Nazis see a source of inspiration in Protestant theology?

Source

But people on here make statements all the time and can't prove anything...including you

Way to go Zandore...yes you are right people SHOULD do a lil research before they post

The two links I posted are the FIRST two returns on the search results.....go figure.

Think she will read it?

See that Hitler is the logical successor to Theodosius and it all makes sense. Christians are the new Amalek.

ummmmmmmmmm hard to say...she might after all she isn't stupid....if you had of asked that same question about a few others on here I would say...a big fat NO

How can God be 'cut-off' from itself, namely Jesus who is God also?? Its a logistical impossibility.




300 prophecies??? All that have come true? Are you exagerating? If not better start listing them, I would like too see all 300.

The problem with absolute christian prophecy is that, it negates the concept of free-will. Under the premise of absolute divine plan, that will occur no matter what anyone does, will put to utter ruin the concept of free-will.

Now predictions can be made, of certain probabilities, and this could be classified as prophecy but it is open to change, unlike the absolute prophecys you supoort.

If all it take is prophecy's coming correct to convince you that the bible is the divine word of God, then it would stand to reason you would also believe in the dark arts of witchcraft, where numerous prophecies made by witches have come true? If not, then that would be blatant hypocrisy according to your statments and line of reasoning.( enter Nostradamus...)

I'm just curious.


Why would any type of God or being far above humans have to be bound by logic. And can't do/be anything that we find "illogical"?

I really don't see how that would work. From here on out, I won't state my beleifs anymore [as many know, they've changed since I've first gotten here], but will state my opinions, sometimes even from different view points. That way no one can group me with someone else and use it as an excuse. Such as "You only say that because you're Christian!".




Not necessarily. It can be just looking into the future to see what/how something will happen.

The future isnt set, it only exists as infinite probabilities. Anything could change the future at any moment, therefore the future is in constant flux. It is not predictable with absuloute certaintiy, for if it was, the universe and time would be a machine, and the concept of free-will would be non-existent and illusionary.

Zero there is only Now, Past and future are illusions as is time... when you wrap your mind around that it will be crystal clear as to how one can't 'nessecarily" predict anything, there are probablitys following a certian line of constants but even at that a thing can change instantly....May i suggest some reading material for you since you are investigating??Read the Seth books see what you think???

I do not at all consider a Christian hating Jewish assistant professor at Kent State to be at all unbiased, especially when you put his solel book against the entire world wide documentation done of the Nazis and their Aryan beliefs.

Neo-pagans are often a hodge-podge of mixed beliefs.
The Nazis were Neo-pagans. Suck it up and deal with reality, if that is at all possible for you.

The everyone is a bisexual series

The Seth Material

In late 1963, Jane Roberts and her husband Robert Butts experimented with a Ouija board as part of Roberts' research for a book on ESP. According to Roberts and Butts, on December 2, 1963 they began to receive coherent messages from a personality who eventually identified himself as Seth. Within weeks, Roberts began to hear the messages in her head and to dictate them, and the use of the Ouija board was eventually abandoned. For 21 years until Roberts' death in 1984 (with a one-year hiatus due to her final illness) Roberts held regular sessions in which she went into a trance and channelled messages from Seth. These messages, consisting mostly of monologues on a wide variety of topics, are collectively known as the "Seth Material". Beginning with the 511th session in January, 1970, Seth began to dictate his own books through Roberts. This series of "Seth books" eventually totalled ten volumes, although the last two volumes appear to be incomplete due to Roberts' illness. The list of titles includes The Seth Material (written by Roberts with excerpts from the Material); Seth Speaks; The Nature of Personal Reality; The Nature of the Psyche, Its Human Expression; The Individual and the Nature of Mass Events; The Unknown Reality; and Dreams, Evolution and Value Fulfillment.

Seth claimed to be a soul or "energy personality essence" who was independent of Jane Roberts' subconscious, although Roberts herself remained somewhat skeptical until the end of her life. Seth said that he was speaking from an adjacent plane of existence, having completed his earthly reincarnations. Unlike the tortured syntax of the Cayce readings, the Seth Material is marked by its modern diction and general lucidity. The Material discusses the nature of physical reality, the origins of the universe, the theory of evolution, the Christ story, the nature of God, and the purpose of life, among other subjects.

Much of the Seth Material is considered radical. For example, Seth contended that time and space are illusions and that both the past and future are accessible from the present; that each person lives many lives simultaneously, rather than consecutively; and that each person creates his own circumstances and experiences within the shared earthly environment, similar to the doctrine of responsibility assumption. In an argument reminiscent of the "many worlds hypothesis", Seth said there are multiple realities, each as valid as any of the others.

Worth noting is the fact that Seth is one of the few metaphysical sources having an open attitude towards sexual orientation. Seth said, “Only a basic bisexuality could give the species the leeway necessary, and prevent stereotyped behavior of a kind that would hamper creativity and social commerce. That basic sexual nature allows you the fulfillment of individual abilities, so that the species does not fall into extinction. Man’s recognition of his bisexual nature is, therefore, a must in his future.”

Unlike Edgar Cayce, perhaps the most famous psychic and medium to precede Jane Roberts, Roberts gave few readings to the public and was mostly focused on publishing the Material in printed form.

In 1996, sessions 1 through 510 (the "early sessions" which preceded the dictation of the Seth books) were clained to be published posthumously by Robert Butts, along with six volumes of previously unpublished personal messages given to Roberts and Butts by Seth.

Since Roberts' death, others have claimed to channel Seth; at least one person has claimed to channel Roberts herself.

God the 'Father' was separated from God the son, during the crucifixion (because sin was being laid on Yeshua), Hence Jesus calling 'Father father why have you forsaken me?'
And no I am not exagerrating at all, there are over 300 prophesies that jesus fulfilled!
Here are some (and here is a link to an interesting site http://www.bibleprobe.com/300great.htm;
Old Testament Scriptures That Describe The Coming Messiah
The Messianic Prophecy (paraphrased) Where the prophecy appears in the Old Testament (written between 1450 BC and 430BC) Jesus’ fulfillment of the prophecy in the New Testament (written between 45 and 95 AD) The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15 Galatians 4:4
The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed Genesis 12:3; 18:18 Acts 3:25,26
The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33
The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23
The Messiah will be the Son of God Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22
The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected) Psalm 16:10,11 and 49:15 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32
The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies—not all listed here) Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30
The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked Psalm 22:7 Luke 23:11,35-39
The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39;
John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27
The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death) Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 John 19:31-33,36
Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing Psalm 22:18 Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24
The Messiah will accused by false witnesses Psalm 35:11 Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57
The Messiah will be hated without a cause Psalm 35:19 and 69:4 John 15:23-25
The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend Psalm 41:9 John 13:18,21
The Messiah will ascend to heaven (at the right hand of God) Psalm 68:18 Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9; 2:33-35; 3:20-21; 5:31,32; 7:55-56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20,21; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Pet 3:22 . . . sorry, we got carried away!
The Messiah will be given vinegar and gall to drink Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23; John 19:29,30
Great kings will pay homage and tribute to the Messiah Psalm 72:10,11 Matthew 2:1-11
The Messiah is a “stone the builders rejected” who will become the “head cornerstone” Psalm 118:22,23 and Isaiah 28:16 Matthew 21:42,43; Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6-8
The Messiah will be a descendant of David Psalm 132:11 and Jeremiah 23:5,6; 33:15,16 Luke 1:32,33
The Messiah will be a born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35
The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee Isaiah 9:1-7 Matthew 4:12-16
The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. Isaiah 35:5-6 Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47
The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31
The “Gospel according to Isaiah” Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Matthew, Mark, Luke, John
People will hear and not believe the “arm of the LORD” (Messiah) Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37,38
The Messiah will be rejected Isaiah 53:3 Matthew 27:20-25; Mark 15:8-14; Luke 23:18-23; John 19:14,15
The Messiah will be killed Isaiah 53:5-9 Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30
The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14
The Messiah will be buried with the rich Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42
The Messiah will be crucified with criminals Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33
The Messiah is part of the new and everlasting covenant Isaiah 55:3-4 and Jeremiah 31:31-34 Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; Hebrews 8:6-13
The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf) Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15
The Messiah has two missions Isaiah 61:1-3 (first mission ends at “. . . year of the LORD’s favor”) First mission: Luke 4:16-21; Second mission: to be fulfilled at the end of the world
The Messiah will come at a specific time Daniel 9:25-26 Galatians 4:4 and Ephesians 1:10
The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7
The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11
The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver Zechariah 11:12,13 Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10
The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31,56
The Messiah will enter the Temple with authority Malachi 3:1 Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45

Couldn’t Someone Just Write These Down and Pretend They Were Written Earlier?Many people who do not believe in the Bible say this. However, manuscripts have been found that confirm that these various prophecies were written down 400-1,000 years before they actually occurred. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls put to rest most of such idle talk.

First and foremost, Dan’el is an upstanding and loyal character from Ugaritic holy scriptures, written about 200-300 years prior to the supposed Exodus, and quite probably the prototype for Daniel of the Maccabeean pseudepigrapha by the same name. The book of Daniel was written in 164 BCE at the time that Hellenism was attempted the subduction of Judaism. In the third century, the prophets had attacked in a veiled way the pervading influence of Greece, called Babylon or Assyria, and its pantheon of strange Greek gods, called idols, but the attack at the time of the author of Daniel was more direct, Antiochus Epiphanes, the king of the Syrian Greeks putting a statue of Zeus in the Jerusalem temple—the abomination of desolation. Daniel was a protest and a call to action against this forcible Hellenization, though the real problem was the voluntary Hellenization that had been proceeding apace. The author pretended he was a seer, Daniel, in exile in Babylonia 400 years before, but it should be noticed that the last prophesy that can actually be shown to have occurred did so in 164 BCE, every so called prophesy afterward can not be shown to have occurred. Its real nature as history disguised as prophecy, as a pseudepigraph, was realized by a polemicist against Christianity, Pophyry, whose works are typically "lost". We do have much of his thoughts recorded in the rebuttal attempts by early Church Fathers. Daniel can’t even get his history correct, he has Nebuchadnezzar beseiging Jerusalem in The third year of the reign of Jehoiakim (606 BCE), at which time Nebuchadnezzar was not yet king of Babylon. It was 597 BCE that Nebuchadnezzar invaded Jerusalem for the first time (without actually destroying it). By that time Jehohiakim was dead and his son, Jehoiachin, was ruling. - Bad History in the Book of Daniel by Farrell Till. Someone that lived through that time would not have made such a mistake. A further mistake of history that this man “who lived through these happenings” was that apparently, he knew of only two Babylonian kings during the period of the exile: Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar, who he wrongly thought was the son of Nebuchadnezzar. But Nebuchadnezzar died in 562 BCE and was succeeded by his son, Awil-Marduk (referred to in the bible as "Evilmerodach" [see 2 Kg.25:27 and Jer.52:31]). In 560 BCE, Amel-Marduk was assassinated by his brother-in-law, Nergal-shar-usur. The next and last king of Babylon was Nabonidus who reigned from 556 to 539, when Babylon was conquered by Cyrus. It was Nabonidus, and not Belshazzar, who was the last of the Babylonian kings. Belshazzar was the son and viceroy of Nabonidus. But he was not a king, and was not the son (or any other relation) of Nebuchadnezzar. The final historical mistake was his identification of the conqueror of the Babylonians. Darius the Median is a fictitious character whom the author perhaps confused with Darius I of Persia, who came to the throne in 521 BCE, 17 years after the fall of Babylon. The author of Daniel incorrectly makes him the successor of Belshazzar instead of Cyrus the Great, the founder of the Persian Empire. Daniel, for all of supposedly having lived during that period, made mistakes that even a first year history student wouldn’t make. But when you are writing 400 years after a period that your people recorded very poorly, it is easy enough to make those mistakes.

Bella It seems is homophobic, Your intolerance is showing Bella tsk tsk, Namaste sheri

Interestingly enough, Seth is the evil brother of Osiris and a close ancient Egyptian approximation to Satan. It would give me pause to communicate with an entity by that name!

Tags, here is why Jesus was not the messiah in the eyes of the Jews (including Daniel) 2000 years ago (and I apologize to those of you who have read this in a previous thread):

Moshiach: The Messiah

"I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the moshiach, and though he may tarry, still I await him every day."
- Principle 12 of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith

The Messianic Idea in Judaism

Belief in the eventual coming of the moshiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the moshiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service.

Modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets. They note that the messianic concept is not mentioned anywhere in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible).

However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of Judaism. The moshiach is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all people could understand, and the abstract concept of a distant, spiritual, future reward was beyond the comprehension of some people. However, the Torah contains several references to "the End of Days" (achareet ha-yameem), which is the time of the moshiach; thus, the concept of moshiach was known in the most ancient times.

The term "moshiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The moshiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.

The word "moshiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept. The word "moshiach" will be used throughout this page.

The Moshiach

The moshiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The moshiach is often referred to as "moshiach ben David" (moshiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments. (Isaiah 11:2-5) He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the moshiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the moshiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the moshiach, then that person is not the moshiach.

When Will the Moshiach Come?

There are a wide variety of opinions on the subject of when the moshiach will come. Some of Judaism's greatest minds have cursed those who try to predict the time of the moshiach's coming, because errors in such predictions could cause people to lose faith in the messianic idea or in Judaism itself. This actually happened in the 17th century, when Shabbatai Tzvi claimed to be the moshiach. When Tzvi converted to Islam under threat of death, many Jews converted with him. Nevertheless, this prohibition has not stopped anyone from speculating about the time when the moshiach will come.

Although some scholars believed that G-d has set aside a specific date for the coming of the moshiach, most authority suggests that the conduct of mankind will determine the time of the moshiach's coming. In general, it is believed that the moshiach will come in a time when he is most needed (because the world is so sinful), or in a time when he is most deserved (because the world is so good). For example, each of the following has been suggested as the time when the moshiach will come:

* if Israel repented a single day;
* if Israel observed a single Shabbat properly;
* if Israel observed two Shabbats in a row properly;
* in a generation that is totally innocent or totally guilty;
* in a generation that loses hope;
* in a generation where children are totally disrespectful towards their parents and elders;

What Will the Moshiach Do?

Before the time of the moshiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

The moshiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age

The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife. In English, we commonly use the term "messianic age" to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.

Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people. (Isaiah 2:4) Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.

All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.

In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.

What About Jesus?

Jews do not believe that Jesus was the moshiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the moshiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.

On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kochba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kochba was the moshiach. Bar Kochba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a moshiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kochba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the moshiach.

Throughout Jewish history, there have been many people who have claimed to be the moshiach, or whose followers have claimed that they were the moshiach: Shimeon Bar Kochba, Shabbatai Tzvi, Jesus, and many others too numerous to name. Leo Rosten reports some very entertaining accounts under the heading False Messiahs in his book, The Joys of Yiddish. But all of these people died without fulfilling the mission of the moshiach; therefore, none of them were the moshiach. The moshiach and the Olam Ha-Ba lie in the future, not in the past.

Biblical Passages Referring to the Moshiach

The following passages in the Jewish scriptures are the ones that Jews consider to be messianic in nature or relating to the end of days. These are the ones that we rely upon in developing our messianic concept:

* Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20
* Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39
* Ezekiel 38:16
* Hosea 3:4-3:5
* Micah 4
* Zephaniah 3:9
* Zechariah 14:9
* Daniel 10:14

http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

The post above given by mako is so full of misconceptions and error as to what Christians believe it is laughable! It states that no mention of the messiah can be gleaned from the first 5 books, but;
The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15 Galatians 4:4
The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed Genesis 12:3; 18:18 Acts 3:25,26
The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33
The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23

It is obvious that Christians are aware that messiah means annointed one, what value does this give to the debate? We obviously know it does not mean saviour, but it does not mean the annointed one 'cannot' be a saviour!
And do not forget Messiah is coming again, to bring in his kingdom!

Maybe I was wrong Zandore she didn't

Hey, you were the one extolling the powers of Daniel and when shown that Daniel was a pseudepigrapha, you took the typical Christian tactic of trying to make scriptures fit your beliefs. Well, first and foremost, using the bible to prove the bible shows how desperate you are and second none of the Old Testament that you attempted to use applies to Jesus of Nazareth. Genesis 3:15 would apply to all descendent of Eve and there isn’t even an allusion to a Messiah or Savior in the verse. Galatians would naturally say the God sent forth his Son, it is after all a piece of Christian propaganda. Genesis 12:3 and 18:18 again has nothing to do with Jesus of Nazareth (other than he is a Jew and hence a descendent of a mythological character), it just promises Abraham that his seed will become a mighty nation (which never happened). Acts is a 2nd Century CE bit of Christian Propaganda and does nothing to give verifiable evidence that Jesus even existed, much less was the son of god. Genesis 49:10 has nothing to do with Jesus either and I need you to explain why the genealogies of Matthew and Luke do not agree for the most part, even though they are enumerated from Joseph (not Mary as many Christians like to try to explain). As for Deut 18:15 – 19, you are not giving the whole story, it reads like this:

18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall
18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

As you can see, it is nothing about Jesus, just about prophets (unless you think Jesus was just a Prophet) and how to tell if a prophet is from God or not! As for Acts 3:22, it is based on the belief that Deuteronomy was written by Moses, which even Christian scholars will tell you, is not the truth. And with that falsehood, Acts negates any 2nd century validity that it might have had.

As for returning again, Jesus told his disciples that there were those standing there that would still be alive when he returned. From a lack of antique disciples running around, I would venture that was a false prophecy and the punishment for being a false prophet is death by stoning!

Ah, the famous "Olivet". The prophecy even has a nickname! My other famous false prophecy by you-know-who is "If you tear this temple down I will rebuild it in three days", actually spoken in the temple itself, but the writer of the gospel involved says he meant the "temple of his body", which of course dates it after the destruction of the second temple, 40 years later, otherwise - duh - how would he have known the temple was never rebuilt?

In fact, there is a prophecy somewhere in the AT where god says that if his people ever comitted any great injustice he would send men from abroad who would destroy the Temple of Jerusalem. It happened twice, first with the Babylons and then with the Romans. I don't know what if they did anything before the Babylonian exile but many have said the destruction of the Temple by the romans was a punishment for killing Jesus.

Or maybe it was for rebelling against the Roman occupation (they were after all a Roman province) and nothing to do with offing an obscure jewish rabbi, who probably never existed.

Take your pick of the search results: "Nazis+Christian"


I was expecting that

Ignorance is bliss.