Assume the gospels illustrate jesus accurately, assume therefore he exists.

From these accounts does jesus display any signs of being 'mental', or being just a compulsive liar? or do they suggest he is telling the truth?

Was there a Jesus?

12 Apostles

No, they suggest they were written by the Council of Nicea for Emperor Theodosius. Assuming for a moment that they weren't, Jesus shows all kinds of signs of being twisted. Ever read up on the fig episode? How about him telling people to leave their families behind? How about refusing to help a woman because she was a gentile and calling her a dog? how about raging in the temple and turning over the money-changers' tables? He was a nut, if real.

After reading the bible, anyone can come to any of the above conclusions. It's how you interpret the words and teachings yourself that matters.

Have we considered that perhaps...it's not Jesus that was lying?

That is a personal decision that each of us must make and only two possible answers!
1. Jesus Christ is either the greatest charlatan that ever existed or never existed!
OR
2. Jesus Christ was telling the truth!
No one can answer for another, as old man Ripley once said “Believe it or not”

John 14:7-10 [7] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." [8] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." [9] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'? [10] Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."
John 14:11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
John 10:37-38 [37] Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. [38] But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
Matthew 27:43 He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, `I am the Son of God.'"
John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.

How about, he never even existed. Other than the NT gospels, there is NO evidence that Jesus of Nazareth existed any more than Zeus, Osiris, Erakles, or Mithra did.

I don't think he existed, I think he was inserted later to keep the masses under control, If he did exist his message wasn't original and it doesn't seem to have stuck today, in any event the message meant well.....

I'd say Jesus existed. Maybe not exactly like the bible says. And in my opinion, it's either that Jesus was telling the truth if what's in the bible is actualy what he taught, or the people who wrote the bible were lying and overexagerated a bit when it came to a man named Jesus. Even though the "only evidence" of Jesus is in the bible, I can't just toss that away completley and say it's useless. The bible has been correct before on locations and what not, where people thought it was only fiction.

The book The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel takes this approach, and the approach is inherently flawed for the very simple reason you cannot ASSUME the gospels illustrate Jesus accurately, and evidence of this exists in the Nag Hammadi!

It's pointless even going in the direction, trying to question the accuracy and validity of something only with refrence to itself.

Does any one see a contradiction here? one is glaring at me!

Well said venom, I'll have to remeber this one...

If the gospels are made up to promote Jesus why all the negative elements in it, towrds this cause? Could it be because they are brutally honest and trust worty.
I mean why record the things that Gideon states above (there are explanations for these incidentally, but they need to be set in context and at first glance are anti jesus in a way), why record many did not believe him, that many called him a devil in fact, that he died first before going to heaven, why not just make him go there first without humiliation etc, why record that his closest followers did not even have faith in him? one betrayed him and the others ran away!, why have female testimony as the first to find the empty tomb, in an age when women were not afforded equal status, why record little irrelevant points like the time when jesus bends over to write on the dust? this part of the story has no meaning and is simply recorded because it is what he saw.
the only sensible, and i repeat sensible explanation is because these men are telling the truth!

Tags, The gospels IMO were made up to promote wht would happen to you if you questioned the powers that be and even though jesus was god's only son look at what he allowed, very powerful message...content content content just a thought....

Well... To start with, most of those that you named here DID NOT exist anyway, and the problem in disbelieving that jesus ever even existed is that you have to be able to find accounts disproving that assertion, yet you cannot find ANY historical documentation stating that Jesus was a tall tale, hoax, fairy tale eyc...

No, rather what you find is that Historians OUTSIDE the Bible were well aware of his life story and existance, and that his religious enemies knew that he did actually exist/teach/did miracles, but the jewish leaders have him as a false Messiah and blasphamer, so those who would want to discredit the rise of Christianity early on could refure neither... Jesus lived and existed, did the sayings/deeds/signs and wonders attributed to Him in Bible, and that their was an empty tomb.....

And let us answer this... How did the early Christians decide on their own to elevate jesus to being God, to observing Sunday as the new Day of Worship, and in teaching that OT laws and rituals were no longer binding, as they were ALl "good Jews"?

Amazing that we can take the writtings about other religions as being somewhat true in their assertions, and the Koran as being "truth" yet the far more attested to Jesus and Bible are discredited as "fables/Myths/Legends"...

Just not good enough explanation. All the above included ideas and more would not serve to produce this idea.

TAGS, quote a reliable contemporary source that there were, simultaneously, an earthquake, an eclipse, the temple veil rending, and walking dead zombies marching on Jerusalem as Yeshu died. Just one.

Tags its my take on things based on wht i think.....jesus goes against the ideas of the day, his message is sparking interest, the powers that be can't have that so they kill him,"god' does nothing,except manipulates the sitaution passes the buck to humaity, well actually tells mankind through a 'book' we planned this little crucufuction to wash you all of your sins, that is a good excuse as any..After all someone said this is the word of 'god .... what you don't like my story??? ...

Obviously cut and paste (not mine).

(The following is by Rabbi Shraga Simmons)
It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position. The more data that's available, the better-informed choices people can make about their spiritual path.

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:
1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.
At the end of this article, we will examine these additional topics:
5) Christianity contradicts Jewish theology
6) Jews and Gentiles
7) Bringing the Messiah

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1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-2.

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

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2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

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3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

C. SUFFERING SERVANT

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.

From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."

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4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.

Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).

Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. :

The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.

What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)

Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.

See "Did God Speak at Mount Sinai" for further reading.

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5) CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH THEOLOGY

The following theological points apply primarily to the Roman Catholic Church, the largest Christian denomination.

A. GOD AS THREE?

The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).

Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.

In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry -- one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.

B. MAN AS GOD?

Roman Catholics believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).

Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)

C. INTERMEDIARY FOR PRAYER?

The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."

In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:1. Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)

D. INVOLVEMENT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD

Catholic doctrine often treats the physical world as an evil to be avoided. Mary, the holiest woman, is portrayed as a virgin. Priests and nuns are celibate. And monasteries are in remote, secluded locations.

By contrast, Judaism believes that God created the physical world not to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and elevates. Sex in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform.

The Talmud says if a person has the opportunity to taste a new fruit and refuses to do so, he will have to account for that in the World to Come. Jewish rabbinical schools teach how to live amidst the bustle of commercial activity. Jews don't retreat from life, we elevate it.

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6) JEWS AND GENTILES

Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion. The Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. King Solomon asked God to heed the prayers of non-Jews who come to the Holy Temple (Kings I 8:41-43). The prophet Isaiah refers to the Temple as a "House for all nations."

The Temple service during Sukkot featured 70 bull offerings, corresponding to the 70 nations of the world. The Talmud says that if the Romans would have realized how much benefit they were getting from the Temple, they'd never have destroyed it.

Jews have never actively sought converts to Judaism because the Torah prescribes a righteous path for gentiles to follow, known as the "Seven Laws of Noah." Maimonides explains that any human being who faithfully observes these basic moral laws earns a proper place in heaven.

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7) BRINGING THE MESSIAH

Maimonides states that the popularity of Christianity (and Islam) is part of God's plan to spread the ideals of Torah throughout the world. This moves society closer to a perfected state of morality and toward a greater understanding of God. All this is in preparation for the Messianic age.

Indeed, the world is in desperate need of Messianic redemption. War and pollution threaten our planet; ego and confusion erode family life. To the extent we are aware of the problems of society, is the extent we will yearn for redemption. As the Talmud says, one of the first questions a Jew is asked on Judgment Day is: "Did you yearn for the arrival of the Messiah?"

How can we hasten the coming of the Messiah? The best way is to love all humanity generously, to keep the mitzvot of the Torah (as best we can), and to encourage others to do so as well.

Despite the gloom, the world does seem headed toward redemption. One apparent sign is that the Jewish people have returned to the Land of Israel and made it bloom again. Additionally, a major movement is afoot of young Jews returning to Torah tradition.

The Messiah can come at any moment, and it all depends on our actions. God is ready when we are. For as King David says: "Redemption will come today -- if you hearken to His voice."

(By: Rabbi Shraga Simmons)
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Jesus’ Predictions:

1) Jesus falsely prophesies DIRECTLY to the high priest (Caiphas) that he would live to see his second coming. Jesus uses the term “coming on the clouds of heaven”. This clearly negates the “coming” as the resurrection but as a return to the earth on CLOUDS, not his return in human form from the dead. Matthew 26:64 & Mark 14:62.

"But I tell you: From now on you will see 'the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power' and 'coming on the clouds of heaven.'" (Matthew 26:64 NAB)
Then Jesus answered, "I am; and 'you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.'" (Mark 14:62 NAB)

2) Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime. Matthew 23:36 & 24:34
"Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." (Matthew 23:36 NAB)
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Matthew 24:29-35 NAB)

3) YET AGAIN, Jesus claims those standing RIGHT BEFORE HIM shall see the Armageddon. Matthew 16:28 “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Don’t let Christians lie to you and claim Jesus was referring to his modern day believers. The words “some standing HERE will not taste death” clearly refutes such nonsense. Obviously the people he was speaking to died, and curiously Jesus STILL isn’t here to claim his kingdom.

4) Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners’ lifetimes.
"Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." (Mark 13:30-31 NAB)
He also said to them, "Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power." (Mark 9:1 NAB)

5) Jesus falsely predicts that some of his listeners would live to see him return and establish the kingdom of God.
"Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:27 NAB)

6) Jesus implies that he will return to earth during the lifetime of John. (John 21:22)

7) Jesus says that all that he describes (his return, signs in the sun, moon, wars, stars, etc.) will occur within the lifetime of his listeners. He purposely defines their generation and NOT a future one. color=red]Considering that NONE of those signs took place during the resurrection and that he uses the term of “Heaven and earth shall pass away”, Clearly Jesus is prophesizing that nearly 2,000 years ago Armageddon SHOULD have occurred. Luke 21:25-33
"There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars, and on earth nations will be in dismay, perplexed by the roaring of the sea and the waves. People will die of fright in anticipation of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these signs begin to happen, stand erect and raise your heads because your redemption is at hand." He taught them a lesson. "Consider the fig tree and all the other trees. When their buds burst open, you see for yourselves and know that summer is now near; in the same way, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Luke 21:25-33 NAB)
[Editor's note: Matthew 10:23 also has Jesus telling his disciples that the second coming will occur before the disciples finish preaching in Israel: "When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." (Matthew 10:23 NAB)]

John’s Predictions
John believes “the time is at hand,” and that the things that he writes about in Revelation will “shortly come to pass.” Revelations 1:1-3
9) John quotes Jesus (1900 years ago) as saying he will come “quickly.” Revelations 22:7, 12 & 20

10) John thinks he is living in “the last times.” He “knows” this because he sees so many antichrists around. 1 John 2:18

11) John says that the antichrist was already present at the time 1 John was written. 1 John 4:3

12) John quotes Jesus (1900 years ago) as saying he will come “quickly.” Revelations 3:11, 22:7, 12 & 20

Paul’s Predictions

13) Paul thought that the end was near and that Jesus would return soon after he wrote these words. Philippians 4:5

14) Paul believes he is living in the “last days.” Hebrews 1:2

15) Paul believed that Jesus would come “in a little while, and will not tarry.” Hebrews 10:37

16) In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Paul stated: “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: And the dead Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: And so shall we ever be with the Lord.” Paul shared the delusion, taught by Jesus, in [i] that he expected to be snatched up bodily into heaven with other saints then living, who would, thus, never taste death. The use of “we” clearly proves as much. It is difficult to deny that Paul was certain that the end of the world was coming in the lifetime of his contemporaries.


Now, you guys, (you know who you are), can argue interpretation, context, translation, New Testament, twinkies, or colours if you want....the biblical character Jesus, the Nazerene, did not fulfill the prophecies of the OT, nor did many of the prophecies of the NT come to be.

What is the definition of a 'contemporary' source Gideon?

It is spelled "contemporary"

Main Entry: 1con·tem·po·rary
Pronunciation: k&n-'tem-p&-"rer-E
Function: adjective
Etymology: com- + Latin tempor-, tempus
1 : happening, existing, living, or coming into being during the same period of time
2 a : SIMULTANEOUS b : marked by characteristics of the present period : MODERN, CURRENT

From Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

All these religious debates are a never ending roller coaster ride. However, it's always entertaining reading them again and again. In the end, no one is right or wrong, doesn't matter how much evidence someone presents, when will you people see this ?.

if he was a liar why did he go threw so much pain?
and why did he rise from the dead

Because the Bible and only the Bible says so.

Well, it is true. That no matter how much evidence you have for either side of the debate, it still doesn't change the truth, wich may happen to be the side with no evidence at all. We might just be wasting our time argueing.

Fascinating Find zandore. You could repost it in everyone of tags prophecy threads.


(Im waiting too see how tags will counter that one... )

I don't think he was a liar but I do think what he was saying got misinterpreted to a large degree.

Alot of people arent beleiving anymore its so sad
But one of these days You Will be wrong you see

Thank you.
I have in the past taken a post out of one thread and moved it to a different one.

BTW: I think he is ignoring it (the post).

Right zero, and its not just on this, it's on almost every religious debate in here. Soon as it hits page 3, sometimes 2 and a half, it's the same questions being answered and asked as page 1. Just keeps going and going. Personally, I don't even try to argue my religious knowledge here anyone, everyone already has there mind made up, and Im in no position to try to "convert" them.

Personally, if you believe in God, great, if you don't, just as great, However, if a message forum can change your belief on religion and your God, you were never a true follower in the first place, so why bother.

Welcome Trix to the UM Forum.


What makes you think we are wrong?

Great minds think alike Azzie...I agree with you totally and enjoy engaging in these exercises of futility!


Or you will be wrong...I am betting on my beliefs, but I will honor yours as long as you emulate Azalin and don't try to push them on me.

The best thing I can see about teaching your points is exactly what you said, exercise. Reading and understanding a subject is one thing, but actually teaching it to others is a better way to retain the information and understand yourself. I can see how the constant debate could help you intellectually, thats the same reason why I keep reading them :-).

Plus, at my age (64), it helps prevent "old-timers" disease! LOL

Use it (the brain) or lose it.

At 50 I only have "some-timers" disease

You are not 50 yet!

As I once told 101 in an email - I ain't as good as I once was, but I am as good once as I ever was - She just laughed....go figger as CD would say.

Never slow down never grow old~ Tom Petty


Back on topic

UUUUmm, what was the subject?

Nah.... I much rather this talk then religious conversion and bashing :-D

"Was Jesus a mad liar?"

Well since you put it that way.

So, Mako, Zandore have either of you ever visited Africa, or Egypt ?, ever seen the pyramids of Giza or any other wonders of the world ?.

Yep, I was a member of military intelligence for over 24 years (not quite a quarter of a century), I have toured the pyramids, tombs at their foot. Been to the valley of the Kings, and the Cairo museum. Lived in Britian, Greece, Japan, and Korea. I have travelled around and have seen ruins and historical places of dozens of different cultures. My only regret is that I have never been to Australia. It and Antartica are the only continents that I have never set foot on (flew over Antartica, but never landed). For a history specialist, I have lived the good life, surrounded by the object of my love.

Ha! As if it is not the NBs who mostly shove their beliefs through hostility towards other.

bella they actually respect each other and Mako never pushes his beleifs on anyone, not ever, he is very confident in them if he shows anything he shows that one who is comfortable in a beleif system honor the same with others thats what i see, What a differnece a perspective makes, outlook outlook outlook i always say.....

Bella, if fighting back when Christian dogma is shoved in my face is called pushing my beliefs on others, then guilty as charged. Otherwise, you honor my space and I honor yours. Only when you attempt to skew history to support your beliefs will I gird my loins for battle.

I envy you, and the amount of knowledge you have seen personally. I have visited Rome, and have ventured in St.Peters Basilica ( during priesthood days ), and found much knowledge there in the ancient texts. My ambition would be to set foot in the pyramids of Giza, and or the Aztec Temples, however, funds are always an issue.

Exactly what does girding loins entail?
It sort of sounds like tenderizing beef.
And while there, what was the whole codpiece thing about?
There is much about the Middle Ages that I do not really know.

Yep...I miss the days when ol' Uncle Sam actually paid me (a pittance, but what the heck) to go to cool places.

It is very painful and involves much muttering, twisting, strapping, cussing under the breath,tightening and metal and leather and felt padding and such!

I don't know, I never had to use one (boy, talk about lying through my teeth!)

I know enough about the Middle Ages to know that I am glad I was born after that time! It was a horrid time, a time of easy death and injustice, of plagues and vermin, of wars and conquerors. Not what I would consider a good time.