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mako
Here is sometime that I came across (believe it or not) in the Slate Magizine portion of the MSN welcome screen. I find it rather fascinating - do we want to discuss this (hopefully quitely and reasonably)?

The Belief Trap
The evolutionary explanation of religion gets stuck.
By Judith Shulevitz
Posted Wednesday, March 8, 2006, at 3:00 PM ET

On the face of it, there's no reason not to dissect religion with the same tools used to pick apart animal behavior. Why can't we ask how religion evolved? What's wrong with trying to figure out whether cleaving unto God enhanced our ancestors' chances of survival, or whether, on the contrary, religious belief occupied them like a parasite, sickening healthy minds with delusional notions?
And yet this approach to religion has long been perceived as a breach of intellectual protocol. Ever since the 18th century, when Immanuel Kant carved up the world between pure reason (science) and practical reason (morality), science has more or less kept to nature, while religion—the nonfundamentalist kind, anyway—has largely confined itself to ethics and the meaning of life. Raids by one party on the camp of the other have invariably ended in name-calling. "Reductionists! Imperialists!" the theologians cry whenever naturalists start making notes and drawing charts. "Relativists! Anti-rationalists!" the scientists retort upon encountering philosophers who wonder whether science is but one descriptive system among others and not the high road to truth.
In Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon, Daniel Dennett promises to break the impasse, or at least to map a course for research that would redraw the traditional boundaries between science and religion. Evolutionary theory, he says, can tell us why religion evolved and what it was meant to achieve, which means it can explain why the religious act the way they do. In an age of growing fanaticism, this seems a claim worth paying attention to. And Dennett seems the man to make good on it. A philosopher of mind—he has written acclaimed books on consciousness and evolutionary theory—Dennett knows how to argue about science and how to argue from within it. A militant atheist, he doesn't promise to keep an open mind about religion. But in theory, at least, his frankness adds value to his opinions.
As Dennett knows full well, the biggest challenge for anyone who wants to put religion under the microscope is figuring out what goes on the slide. What is religion, anyway? How can you tell it apart from ideology or philosophy? How do you distinguish religion¬s, with their quirks and presuppositions, from nationalities or professions, with their quirks and presuppositions? How is being Catholic different from being American, or being a human rights worker?
These may seem like small quibbles, but they have big consequences. We'd be foolish to single out religion for evolutionary investigation if there is nothing about it that is unique. If religions are just cultures, if religious rituals are functionally indistinguishable from other irrational habits, if a religious idea, or meme, Dennett calls it, is just one more way of interpreting the world, then we ought to be asking much broader questions, such as, why do humans have a penchant for peculiar rituals? Trying to explain religion through evolutionary theory would be as frivolous as trying to understand skateboarding by means of physics.
Dennett's definition of religion, however, swats away all such complications with a satisfyingly commonsensical solution. Religions, he says, are "social systems whose participants avow belief in a supernatural agent or agents whose approval is to be sought." Only one part of this statement is actually meaningful. All discernable cultural groups are social systems, and all coherent social systems evince some system of authority—their participants seek approval from somebody or other. What sets religion apart, then, is that its participants avow belief in a supernatural agent or agents. In other words, they aver belief in a God or gods.
Saying that the religious express belief in a deity certainly seems like the obvious way to describe them. But Dennett's definition should give pause to anybody who has ever gone to church or synagogue without being sure why. How does Dennett account for all the people who practice religion without ascertaining whether or not they believe in God?
Dennett has foreseen the objection, which is why he makes "avow" the chief verb in his definition. People don't have to believe what they're saying when they utter prayers in order to be classified as religious. They just have to say the words. But Dennett can't rely on this trick alone, because if everybody avowed belief without meaning it, we'd be back where we started. Religion would be made up of no more than the usual inexplicable cultural activities, like declaiming poetry or shunning dog meat.
So, Dennett has to invent another concept: "belief in belief." He devotes an entire chapter to this troublingly attenuated notion. People who believe in belief, he says, believe that civilization needs myths to live by, so we mustn't examine religious ones too closely. Belief in belief is the compromise formation of those who can't bring themselves to evince a naive belief in a supernatural being but think religion is a useful construct that ought not to be toppled.
You'd have a hard time convincing a true believer that anything as second-order and instrumental as "belief in belief" constitutes belief. Dennett doesn't really think so, either. He sees it more as a falling away from belief, a latter-day apostasy that doesn't recognize itself as such. By the end of his chapter, having dismantled "belief in belief," Dennett excludes from his definition of religion all cosmologies that do not require one to acknowledge the literal truth of the proposition that God exists, or at least gods who are "effective agents in real time." Thus, for instance, he rules out deism, the view that God acts through natural laws, and incidentally Charles Darwin's credo for much of his later life. "If what you hold sacred is not any kind of Person you could pray to, or consider to be an appropriate recipient of gratitude (or anger, when a loved one is senselessly killed), you're an atheist in my book," writes Dennett. "If, for reasons of loyalty to tradition, diplomacy, or self-protective camouflage (very important today, especially for politicians), you want to deny what you are, that's your business, but don't kid yourself."
What kind of people don't kid themselves, according to Dennett? People who practice folk religions, not theological sophistry. Shamans, not priests, imams, or rabbis. Real religion, according to Dennett, makes you do real things with real consequences (sacrifice an ox to ensure rain, for example). Modern religions only make you do inconsequential things, such as profess the proper doctrine. It makes no difference to a Catholic's material well-being whether the wine he drinks during communion has turned into Jesus' blood or not (though it may make a big difference to him psychologically).
But the distinction between folk religions and their opposites also crumbles the minute you try to apply it. How can Dennett be sure that adherents to folk religions believe in a more concrete way than, say, Episcopalians? Natives might pay lip service, too. They might not really believe that sacrificing an ox will bring rain; they might do it merely because it is done, or because they don't know what else to do. With typical honesty, Dennett acknowledges the dilemma, quoting a prominent anthropologist who observed that he never knew, when asking informants about their religious practices, whether they told him what they thought they were supposed to say or what they really believed.
And so, in the end, Dennett gives up. When it comes to interpreting what people say about religion, he writes, "everybody is an outsider" (his italics), the natives and the anthropologists, the religious and the scientifically minded. Why? "Because religious avowals concern matters that are beyond observation, beyond meaningful test, so the only thing anybody can go on is religious behavior." He closes his chapter and moves on. He does not seem concerned that he has just admitted the impossibility of distinguishing religion from everything else. Nor does he worry that this admission undermines the ambition of his book, which is to explain the biological rationale for religion, not to propose a grand theory of culture.
Dennett is not the first writer to find himself going around in this particular circle. As soon as travelers began returning from far-off lands with reports of aboriginal religions, philosophers grasped that the anthropology of religion had a definitional problem on its hands. Could Buddhism, whose God is synonymous with reality, be classed with Christianity, whose God descends to earth in human form? What percentage of pre-modern forms of worship involved religion (praying to God or gods) and to what degree could they be construed as proto-science (trying to control the elements)? Were non-Western creeds crudely nonmetaphorical, or did the white men who wrote about them know too little about their informants not to wrench their statements out of context? Ludwig Wittgenstein once mocked J.G. Frazer, author of the classic Golden Bough, for "narrowness of spiritual life," because he turned the religions he anatomized into "stupidities" as arid as himself.
Faced with these dilemmas, philosophers concluded that there was only one way to tell religion from other apparent aberrations. Religion, they said, is what makes people feel religious. It puts them in touch with the Infinite or with what Freud called "the oceanic feeling." Defining religion as an experience, however, puts us back into the old Kantian world in which science goes here and religion goes there. An experiential definition of religion renders it impervious to empirical observation. You can never prove that someone feels religious, so you can never prove that something is a religion. The philosopher Søren Kierkegaard took this idea even further, saying that the nonreligious could never understand the truth of religion, because religious experience could be understood only subjectively, not objectively.
Why didn't Dennett try to wriggle out of the belief trap by basing his definition of religion on experience, as other philosophers have done? He couldn't, or wouldn't, because for him, consciousness is an illusion, and that position doesn't leave much room for subjectivity, either. Religion is another illusion; that's the spell he has come to break. You don't banish a chimera by granting that it is real. You have to explain it away by revealing a) its nature and cool.gif its purpose. And if you're a hard-core evolutionist, as Dennett is, those can be only a) biological and cool.gif survival. Whether the religious meme enhances our survival or its own—and what exactly it means to say that a nonbiological agent has the power to ensure its own survival—are two other enormous questions Dennett raises in this book. They deserve an essay of their own (and, sometime soon, will get it).

yes.gif
Tangerine Sheri
mako isn't that the whole point of religion, its built into the system, if you were to question the construct just shatters, as one who did question and find out its false in my opinion....There isn't support for a differing opinion in humanity its getting better but for a while I was called alot of names......It actually is natural to question, i used to take alot of parenting classes and one of them was how we inadvertatnly give the message in our parenting there is one answer for everything, by answering every question and by telling a child i know everything i'm you parent, and by rarely saying I DON"T KNOW, i tell my son Genius isn't in the "right" answer its in the next question, having the right answerrs cut you off from growth, Also Curiousity(is a gift IMO.... great article. namaste sheri
Bella-Angelique
It has a lot in common with love.
A group of five will have five different meanings for love if they have to write two paragraphs on it each on what it is.
Some will resemble each other only a little and some a lot.
Tangerine Sheri
Bella i was thinking more along the lines of fear... rofl.gif hmmm
Trix
Sheri I was thinking alone the lines of hmm too
Tangerine Sheri
QUOTE(Trix @ Mar 9 2006, 12:03 PM) [snapback]1096692[/snapback]

Sheri I was thinking alone the lines of hmm too

thumbsup.gif welcome Trix, i hope you like it at UM namaste sheri
Bella-Angelique
QUOTE(mako @ Mar 8 2006, 04:58 PM) [snapback]1095405[/snapback]

I find it rather fascinating - do we want to discuss this (hopefully quitely and reasonably)?

Religion, they said, is what makes people feel religious. It puts them in touch with the Infinite or with what Freud called "the oceanic feeling." Defining religion as an experience, however, puts us back into the old Kantian world in which science goes here and religion goes there. An experiential definition of religion renders it impervious to empirical observation. You can never prove that someone feels religious, so you can never prove that something is a religion.


I tried to discuss it with my comparison of the existence of love to the existence of religion as stated in the post. I think the choice topic was good. It is a shame. There might have been posts on bio feedback of the existence of either and whatever some might have come across that were interested.

Sheri and Trix, are all your spiritual beliefs based on fear? You do understand that in this article ALL spiritual beliefs are synonomous with religious ones, yes?

You can easily transpose it to "You can never prove someone feels spiritual so you can never prove that something is spiritual."

Perhaps you both simply did not understand it or you both are convinced that all things of a claimed spiritual nature are only aspects of biologically induced fear. If that is the case then I do see why you thought the whole topic was pointless and funny.
101
Hey sweetie,

What it was referred to as a parasite is true with some people- it will make them so self absorbed with belief in a deity that they will not believe in thgemselves.

But we also know it as referenced to as a foundation. This is where it lifts one up making it a stronger being.

So how can we say that one (religion) can be both a parasite or foundation. Well we can that is how it goes. The thing is we must come to the realization that religion can either make us or break us. The truth is God is who is the real foundation not the religion in itself.

Love 101 wub.gif
Tangerine Sheri
Bella ,many (not all) religions are fear constructs, many define conditonal love as love but really its fear, Everyone is spiritual, not everyone is religious....namaste Sheri
mako
Now, I am not taking sides here, yes some religions are fueled by fear and some aren't. I like this article because as a Deist I attempt to understand the Creator by understanding his creations. If he did engrain a predilection towards religion in us, then he had a reason for that being part of our makeup. However like the appendix, we may no longer need such a "construct" to insure our survival. Could religion be a vestige and no longer needed? Could some of the population have "evolved" to where it isn't needed and maybe some have not yet "evolved" to that point? This attempt to study religion scientifically is fascinating, although possibly just so much mature male bovine feces. This is the question that I would like to pursue. yes.gif
EmpressV
I think that the whole ritual concept is true of human nature in general. We are creatures of habit and we are comforted by the repetition. Sports figures use their rituals before every game because they think it gives them an edge. They think if they don't do it or do something out of place they have disturbed the flow and that leads to bad omens. So I could see where it would all have a psychological effect.
Bella-Angelique
I know that with hypnosis objects seen and scents that are smelled can act as cues to activate hidden hypnotic suggestions. Perhaps this is why rituals work so well for some and not for others, just as some fall easily into trance and some do not.

I have often thought that ritual has far more to do with the mind than with the spirit but I have no way of proving this.
Bella-Angelique
QUOTE(Sheri berri @ Mar 9 2006, 06:17 PM) [snapback]1097270[/snapback]

Everyone is spiritual, not everyone is religious....namaste Sheri


Is this your definition of religion?

Religion: beliefs and actions related to supernatural beings and forces. (C&P)
Tangerine Sheri
QUOTE(Bella-Angelique @ Mar 9 2006, 06:20 PM) [snapback]1097454[/snapback]

Is this your definition of religion?

Religion: beliefs and actions related to supernatural beings and forces. (C&P)

No Bella, My definition of religion is the "their" philosophy, comfort lies in "their' thoughts, ideas, theology, "their" definitons of right and wrong and "their" ideas of who one is...
the carrot here is all you have to do is agree to "their" way to get approval...
If you choose to think for yourself investigate for yourself define yourself you are subject to 'their' ridicule......Namaste sheri
Vehement
QUOTE(Sheri berri @ Mar 10 2006, 05:15 AM) [snapback]1098086[/snapback]

No Bella, My definition of religion is the "their" philosophy, comfort lies in "their' thoughts, ideas, theology, "their" definitons of right and wrong and "their" ideas of who one is...
the carrot here is all you have to do is agree to "their" way to get approval...
If you choose to think for yourself investigate for yourself define yourself you are subject to 'their' ridicule......Namaste sheri



Exactly! For anyone to be true to their belief or true to themselves, they must ask questions. There is no reason that we should believe in something just because someone said so. The whole key is to find out for yourself. We are not flat out saying that a religious belief is wrong, we are merely stating ask questions and find out for yourself what is real or true. What does that take? It takes stepping outside of the belief system that your religion or however you call it builds around you and research into all that is. In doing this, yes you may find things that disturb you but you could also find things make more sense.

Ask questions, do not fear to do that. There is nothing wrong in questioning things that people tell you is the only way to believe.
OMGMatrix
just on the bit about fear:
"The Oldest and Strongest emotion in mankind is fear,
and the oldest and strongest kind of Fear is the Fear of the unknown."
--H.P. Lovecraft

Religion does seem to make good this quote from my absolute favorite author...
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