Intelligent Design


It's possible that we humans make things so complicated that we fail to recognize the obvious. For example, take a look at the Mount Rushmore photo displayed here. Now ask yourself, how many years would it take for these figures to appear on the side of this mountain by chance? Millions of years? Billions of years? Given one hundred trillion years, could these figures eventually form on the side of the mountain?

Is your answer "no"? If so, why is it "no"? Why couldn't these faces appear on the side of a mountain, given so much time? Isn't that how WE got here? After billions of years of chance, didn't we eventually, gradually come to be how we are now? Isn't that the theory that you've been taught to believe as fact?


How do we know that Mount Rushmore got here by intelligent design?
Let's go back to our mountain. We know that skilled artists and sculptors worked to create the faces on Mount Rushmore. But could such a thing come about by chance? Well, if the earth is as old as scientists tell us, then the mountains in the world are quite ancient. Do we see any mountains in the world where complex and recognizable images have formed on them? Does Mount McKinley have faces like Mount Rushmore on it, for example, that formed over time through erosion, wind, and rain? Or does the Matterhorn, for example, have an image of a giraffe on it that came about through natural forces, time, and chance?
You might be thinking, "This is silly. How could an image of a giraffe appear on the side of the Matterhorn by chance? Even given infinite time, wind, rain, and erosion?" Well, it IS silly. It's silly to think that something so complex, something so obviously designed, could come about by mere chance, no matter how much time was allotted.


Mount Rushmore's creation: not myth but intelligent design
When we look at Mount Rushmore, we know that a mind or minds were used in designing and executing the images we see there. Prior to the faces being formed there, Mount Rushmore was a "victim" of chance, wind, rain, time, erosion. The result? Nothing that we would consider as complex, intelligent design. Then the faces were carved on the side of the mountain. It was then that mere chance was overthrown...by intentional design and order.
Now consider the men themselves: Washington, Jefferson, Roosevelt, Lincoln. Were the actual men more complex or less complex than the faces on the side of Mount Rushmore? They were MUCH more complex. George Washington led our nation as president. Could his face on the side of Mount Rushmore do that? Abraham Lincoln gave the Gettysburg Address. Could his Mount Rushmore likeness do that? Could Jefferson's stone face pen the Declaration of Independence? Obviously, the men themselves are much more complex than their mountainside counterparts.


Your creation: not myth but intelligent design by God
So if the faces could not appear on Mount Rushmore by chance no matter how much time was given, then would it not be true that the men themselves could not appear by chance no matter how much time was given?
What about you? Apply the Mount Rushmore test of intelligent design to yourself. Are you more complex than a carved image on the side of a mountain? Do you think you really came about by chance? You with your highly complex DNA? You who is the only you that has ever been? What kind of artist would it take to make someone as incredible as a human being? Is chance that artist? Don't be silly.





And the scientific view


The concept of probability has been perhaps the single most badly abused concept in the creationist jihad against evolution. Creationists have fixated on probability as the penultimate failing of evolution theory ever since molecular evolution was first posited. They endlessly attempt to refute the position of mainstream science with pseudoscientific ramblings in their little isolated hothouse world, complete with their own little creation "science" symposiums, reports, and journals, all dressed up with nice language and bookbindings so they look like authentic scientific journals.

But these creation "science" journals are not subject to peer review, unlike real science journals. They contribute nothing to the world of science, unlike real science journals, because their objective is not to discover new phenomena or propose new explanations. Their only objective is to attack evolution. Because they are not subject to the glare of scientific peer review, they are free to call upon "experts" with fraudulent, honorary, or worthless credentials, or to misquote and misinterpret credible experts. They are also free to take subjects like probability theory and hopelessly mutilate them in an effort to make evolution seem ridiculously improbable. They can even use outright lies, knowing that they are preaching to the choir and no one is going to be examining their work with a critical eye.

So they use pseudoscience, and questionable references, and out-of-context quotes from various sources, and a lot of folksy but flawed analogies. Their argument is simple enough: the DNA sequence is very complex, and contains a lot of information, and the probability of getting the correct sequence is therefore infinitesimally small, so it must have occurred due to intelligent design, right? They use the analogy of a tornado going through a field full of airplane parts, and leaving a fully assembled 747 jumbo jet, which is clearly ludicrous. "Obviously," they argue, anyone who thinks such a complex structure can be assembled by random mechanisms is insane.

Well, it's folksy and cute, and it's actually quite effective on people who don't understand probability or evolution, but it's wrong. It's a strawman- evolution theory does not claim that a bacterium ever sprang from the muck. Like all creationist arguments, it's a clever deception based on pseudoscience.

WHAT??????????????

Intelligent Design is saying that there is no way something as complex as a human being or any animal/plant for that matter formed out of pure chance. God or a higher power/being had to design us.

Scientist/evolutionist are saying...we could of come about by pure chance/evolution....I'm not a religious man...but the chances of us forming by pure chance is pretty ridiculous.

So this is science in the nature section.

Depends on how you look at it...if we evolved naturally...then its kinda nature...

Ok. I can go for that.
I suppose I lean towards a combo view.
Evolving Design perhaps?

I think the notion that we were made by chance is not rediculous in the least. But a higher power that made everything is quite rediculous in my eyes.

Evolutionists hate it.
Creationists say its not enough.

You will always have opposition...

The essential problem here is thinking that complexity is a sign of intelligent design. It's quite the opposite, actually. Complexity is the expected outcome of a natural process. Simplicity is the sign of intelligent desing. Just as with the Mount Rushmore example.

well how were we made??? i mean in an ID point of view i mean were we in like a factory on a conveyor belt or with something attaching our limbs and what not??? come on that seems a little i dunno nuts thinking that something put us together??? thats how i look at it when someone says ID i think of someone putting a GI Joe or something together.... i think its is possible and most accurate to say we came by good ol chance we take chances everyday why not come from CHANCE!.... what about a fetus or pregnancy i think most are chance i mean there are billions of sperm cells and the ONE that reaches the egg first wins right? the strongest survive and in this case the strongest swimming sperm carry on so thats a 1 out of a billion chance that we have all took in our lives at one point so id say its all chance.... sorry if i lost anyone i just got my first Mt.Dew of the day

Well I think that god created this world and i guess that he knows all about what we call science

id like to see his "instruction booklet" on how to put the mantle together or the core? or better yet where to plant the grass and where do dig the oceans? do you really think someone just snapped their fingers and there was earth??? i dont think it works like that.. how did he know where to put the earth so it was in the right spot with the sun so life could prosper? i remember when i was little in elementry school they told us Paul Bunyon carved the grand canyon as he drug his axe around? and michigan is his mittin print when he fell thats not what really happend but its good ol folk tales that people like to hear just like the bible i gues youre gonna say the instructions are in there?

well he must know exactly what atoms are...and it didnt take him long to create what he wanted

If God did create the world, then I am convinced the laws of science as we know them must have been created by Him as well. Because of that, I will state the the truest path to discovering God is not through stories that have been manipulated by men for millenia, but rather through the laws that He Himself created and that no man can alter.

how do YOU know that? what has made you believe that "god" knows what atoms are?? and atoms had nothing to do with my reply i was saying i want his instruction book for the earth better yet i want his instructions for the universe and i want any instructions on how HE "the all mighty" was created cause there has to creator for the creator? am i right? see theres just too many questions religion cant answer... just look at the facts animals humans whatever are all created by chance i mean yeah "mom" and "dad" make you in a sense that they did the "work" but they didnt make anything... it was all a chance and if you cant see how you were just a chance i dont know what then... any of us could of been somebody else boys could of been girls and girls could of been boys you could have black hair, green eyes, white,yellow,purple,black whatever its all a chance.... but you could also say they did create me because they planned for me to be born...WRONG they planned on a baby they didnt plan on you.... you were made by dundundun.....chance! thats right they rolled the dice and out comes a baby.... ok ill cut it off there im just ranting if anyone sees it this way let me know lol

I agree.

And God said let there be light.NO let me restate that:AND GOD SAID LET THERE BE LIGHT!
The power of the spoken word has longed eluded our own conscious thought! That we be-
cause of our free will (giving by God) now hold the very precious ability of creativity and
independent thought process.(To make or destroy anything we choose) So if one chose to
ROll The DICE,simply the dice are rolled, (We) you did it, not God! Therfore how does one
claim that it is mere chance that we are here!(I think Not) Did you roll the dice? No God did
and such a splendid example of him/her self was therfore created:

I have to admit I get pretty tired of the whole evolution and intelligent design debate.
It is a circular argument with each side not willing to see the other.

It seems we are striving too hard to fit everything into our beliefs instead of being willing to see the flaws in each thing and weigh it all. Francis Crick's theory of Directed Panspermia resonates with me beyond intelligent design and evolution. I believe we were created whether by God or higher intelligence who knows it remains yet to be seen.

However looking at Francis Cricks work really made me think. Here you have the leading researcher (dead now) in DNA who is saying that DNA was far too complex to have developed here on earth in age scientists say the earth is. Now either the earth has to be much much older or the only other possibilty is that DNA was placed here. No one has disproved him yet but I find it fasinating food for thought none-the-less.

wheres my "made in heaven" tag? there isnt one is there... just because a book that has been changed for thousands of years says it so then it must be true right? and you were force fed that information since you could walk/talk.... think "outside the book" for a moment and imagine how life could just start by chance.... im not forcing you to change your whole belief system just step away from it and imagine... and me saying that i will step into your circle and ponder how we rolled out of the assembly line.... and was it UPS or fed ex that shipped us from heaven??

This arguement sucks mud. If you want to debate the evolution in a rock all you have to look at is a fossil of an ancient species. That's all the proof you need.

thats what i call a close minded skeptic....theres flaws in evolution as well as in inteligent design nobody knows the absolute truth yet and being close minded never got science anywhere



i believe that we were created by god, and why is it rediculous i mean if you think of it like that it would be just as rediculous to say your parents made you....because your parents would be a higher power to you when you were a child and humans made mostly everything we see....

In a way, it's similar to saying your parents didn't make you, you evolved into what you are eventualy. ^____^


That's what happened to me.

Thats a good thought but than it brings the thought to mind how sure are you that your father is really your father?

Mother's baby, papa's maybe.


Aquatus, how would a simple formation in a mountain be more sign of ID than a rock with a complex formation?

Because of the amount of information required to put the formation together. Think of it this way: Let's say you are walking along the mountain and you pick up a pebble at the bottom of a cliff. Let's say that you are trying to replicate this rock in a computer. You will need to factor in the different densities of the rock, all the different angles, the different textures, colors, patterns, weight distribution, dozens, maybe, hundreds of different factors. Your program to replicate this rock will be thousands of lines long! Why? Well, simply because this rock is the natural result of a billion different random acts. It is immensily complex.

But what if, instead, you were walking along the mountain, and suddenly you came across a jet black marble. What if you tried to replicate that? Well, being perfectly spherical, one line would be enough (4/3 Pi R^3). Add a note for color, a note for material, and you are done. Simplicity.

So, encountering both of these objects in a mountain, which would you intuitively think was made by an intelligent designer, and which would you think was the result of natural acts?

But, you're assuming that "Natural" isn't the way God designed the universe to be. Remember, if he is omnipotent, then trillions of years may even be INSTANT for God. And, if he also new the outcome, then why couldn't this be the way it was ment to be?

Actually, no, I'm not. To do that, I would first have to assume that God exists. Since I have no reason to believe that God exists, I must assume He does not, until such time as evidence supporting his existence comes to light. The evidence that I do have at hand indicates that, from a series of random natural processes, I should expect a complex outcome, whereas the result of intelligent design is the simplification of a series of events in order to arrive at the final outcome.



I'm sorry, I don't understand the relevence.

If God created the universe, then he did so using the science that scientists are working hard to uncover. If God is responsible for gravity working in a certain way, and light moving at a certain speed, then the surest path to God is through the study of the laws of the natural world that He created. That would be the study of His direct works, untouched by human hands, as opposed to a book that has been manipulated by man for thousands of years.

If I was a "God", I'd not want any of it to be simple. Then it would be less beautiful in my opinion.

I disagree, but then, I'm all about the beauty of simplicity (I'm kind of Japanese about that).

Ultimately, Neither mine or your opinion matters a great deal. What matters is what can be shown to exist through either evidence or logic. If Goid exists, then I would seek to find Him through His works, not through the works of man.

What do you guys think about the complexity of human consciousness? Some thoughts and emotions are far too complex for even words. What about memory? We don't even know how either work. We don't even know if they are part of the brain. The only wannabe "evidence" that it is part of the brain is "Where else would it be?".

You think? I find humans to be fairly predictable in terms of emotions and actions.



Ahh...no. We know that memory resides in the neurons because we can trigger them manually and cause a memory to surface. It doesn't get much more direct than that.

Not if you tell them you're trying to predict them. Of course people have certain behaviors, but they can also sway from those ways if they wanted to.




It's not as simple as that. Their have been other studies done that seem to support the idea that the brain may not hold the memory. Look around, there's another thread on this.

That's why double-blind protocol is so important.



Seen it. Don't really give it much credit. Ultimately, even if there does turn out to be a different place for memory storage, it won't change the fact that neurons are used for memory storage.

Isn't this in the wrong place?
how can something ''only'' out of a book be considered ''nature''.
Okay the book was made of natural resources. but the rest. ??

well i wasnt always a close minded skeptic... i went to church believed in god, but i opended a biology book, and started reading... you cant compare god creating you and your parents creating you yes your parents are "higher power" but they are NATURAL! they arent some mystic power we cant see like "god" so you cant compare and you dont really know how god created man if he did. well my parents threw in all the "coding" for my development i made myself

yer but mount rushmore isent a living being...its kind of a stupid way to explain things because there arent other rocks that look man made but they arent......there are many different beings around you know like mamals and insects. Plus what if i said yes.

Thought I'd bring back my buddies post from the archive sections: for all you guys asking about religions...RIP Speaker

why is it so hard for people to realize that science and God go hand and hand. science is just our understanding of how God created our reality.

Evolution is not random chance, it's natural selection and mutation. We are adapted to live in our environment. Our ancestors with bigger brains survived to reproduce, outcompeting the less intelligent in the same environment. Self awareness, social behavior, memory, emotion etc. all help(ed) to keep us alive to pass our superior genes on to our children. Of course this doesnt apply any longer, seeing as unintelligent or physically weak people still pass their genes on.

My point is that evolution is NOT "random chance." Animals did not "randomly" come about, they are around in their forms now because over time those forms were shaped as the best forms for reprodction in their environments. Yes, I believe our only actual "purpose" (though purpose to me seems to indicate some higher power monitering us, I don't actually believe in one) is to reproduce. If some creator made us this way so it could test us, why would it make us this way? What's the point? If we can and never will know, why should we care? So we can be "happy" and "at peace" and all of that? Why would it even make us if this was our only purpose? Seems just as pointless as existing solely to reproduce. But hey, if you need that kind of guideline to live your life morally then I say you follow it. I'm just gonna keep on going about my endorphin-releasing tasks.

this was one of the best posts ive read on this site. did you write this whole thing? its brilliant. and yes it does make you think. you could compare mount rushmore to our circulatory system. how could something that works so perfectly and it so well designed come about by natural environment?

great post