Debate suggestion by Neo2005

Is the spread of mulit-chain outlets such as Wal-mart worth the economic positives when it forces the "little guys" to go out of business?"


RamboIII will debate that these multi-chain outlets or "big box retailers" are worth it .

Falco Rex will debate that it is not worth the economic positives.

This will be a 1v1 formal debate.
An Introduction, 5 bodily posts and a conclusion from each participant. No Flaming, bad manners or profantities will be tolerated.

Please be aware that:

There is a point deduction for debaters who fail to make a post within the 7 day time frame. The deductions will be 2 points for every day the participant fails to post after the 7 days.

This is to ensure that debates continue in a timely fashion. If for any reason you cannot post within the 7 days, please ensure that you let myself or Tiddlyjen know to avoid having the points taken off your debate.

If, however the participant does not then attempt to make a post for up to 2 weeks after the 7 day rule has started an immediate disqualification will occur.

Aztec!

Rambo is certainly in this for....Pro Big boxes!
Good luck to whomever I may be debating!

I've been out of this game for quite awhile..I wouldn't mind taking a swing at it; if nobody minds..

Looks like we have a debate!!!



(and of course we dont mind Falco!!

I'll go set it up right away, the best of luck to the both of you!

RamboIII will debate that these multi-chain outlets or "big box retailers" are worth it .

Falco Rex will debate that it is not worth the economic positives.

Introduction

My Case will be based around how Big Box retailers benefit their surrounding community-Debate as you wish but my arguments will be universal for the location(Including those small businesses)

First I'd like to state that recently Wal-Mart has taken to account that they have been, in the past, putting small businesses out of businesses. Now, they are advertising and influencing customers to shop at the other small businesses as well as their retailer INSIDE OF THEIR WAL-MARTS!

I will bring up other points later but I'll say this now: Wal-Mart once WAS terrible for the small businesses. NOW it is nothing less than a miracle.

Ahhh, Big business! You can smell the fresh capitilism in the morning air; greeting another day thick with good old American promise!
Yes sir; capitilism is the basis of an entire country..

Of course; just as with anything else, any great concept carried to it's extreme becomes fatal; and that's exactly what's happened with giant MegaCorps..
The fatality isn't measured in death though, but in the cost to small businessmen and the consumer in general, and in the long run; our very economy itself..
Of course Wal-Mart can afford to advertise for smaller businesses; they can open a store every 12 minutes if they want to..And they just know you'll shop there. You almost have to; thanks to conditions they themselves help set up..
Besides; patting small-business on the head helps distract people from thier thousands of law-suits; many of them advanced by their own employees; who have been treated like dirt..

It doesn't begin and end with them though..From Halliburton Oil, to Verizon, to Target and Nike, an atmosphere of "You'll buy what we want you to; and shop where we tell you to" has descended upon us..
And you will too; because soon there won't be any other option..You'll wear their clothes; fill up with their gas, and use their long-distance service. It's inevitable; and it's death for capitilism in the long run...

In this debate; I hope to show the ladies and gentlemen of the judging panel that Big Business is slowly strangling the world in it's coils..
As a matter of fact; as an exercise in proof; I want each of you to simply walk out to your car and drive down any random street in your city..
The stores you see will be exactly the same, no matter that you all live in different places.
That should prove point one right there...

Good luck to my opponent; and let us begin!

Well, it is a proven fact that a reason why not all of small businesses have been put out of business is because of their uniqueness. Therefore, we will NOT be wearing their close and, because they specialize in products, their gasoline is cheaper and more quality.
As for "You buy what we want you to..." are they not telling the public to shop at small businesses?

Besides, small businesses thrive on their own independence that sets them apart from big business. They provide things such as souvenirs, interesting art, etc. that big businesses do not carry. Therefore they do not always get put out of business anyway, they instead gain enough income to survive. This means that, although many people must shop at Wal-Mart for certain necessities, small businesses thrive due to their specializing and uniqueness.

What an amazingly hopeful message to give to our young people.."Think for yourself, find your opportunity and work hard; and you just might scrape up enough money to survive amid the corporate giants"..
Wow..
I feel like starting my own business right now; don't all of you?
The fact is; what makes greatness is the fact that drive and ambition can make a success of anyone..Or could..
Nowadays there are many factors in place that completely stifle the spirit of Entrepeneurship that people tapped into..
One is out-sourcing...If I own my own business with my own capitol and starting money; I can't afford to pay a factory full of Indonesians to crank out my shoes for me..I have to work with people in my own country..
Never mind the fact that I provide jobs to my own people in my own land by doing so..
Because of that, Wal-Mart can sell sneakers for $5.00; while I have to charge $20.00 for the exact same thing..You can't win in a situation like that..
Hell; this will be a long debate, so I don't even have to start into wages; insurance costs and taxation yet..I'll save those gems for later..
You did state though that small-businesses find a niche in uniqueness and survive there..
True..But do you see the problem?
Look closely...
There it is...
Uniqueness is, well, "Unique"..
There's only a tiny bit of room for each unique niche; which means only a tiny percentage of the population will ever be able to profit off it; much less make even a meager living..
So what am I to infer here?
That you think small business is good only in tiny doses? That Joe Average should never dare to dream above his factory job or mailroom floor; because the Target Corporation will crush him if he attempts to sell any of the things they do?
That he'll only be allowed to succeed if he sells lemonade and sea-shell sculptures at a road-side stand?
Sir: I put it to you that what we need is a playing field where the best and brightest thrive and survive, just as it was in the infancy of capitolism; when it was at it's most pure..
We can of course; pass laws against monopolies to help us out; can't we?
Oh right...
No we can't..Big business supplies at least three quarters of the government; since they have the money it takes to run for office..
So much for that idea..

Well; fight on RamboIII; we have much ground to cover yet..

My apologies...

On to the debate...Looks like I'm in a hole but I will clear things up.
Look at it this way, for small businesses having a store as successful as Wal-Mart is something to aspire to or something that they detest and wish to be the opposite of. This works both ways for them:

1. Wal-Mart started as a small bussiness and in knowing this, small bussinesses are motivated in following thier footsteps. Thus benefitting them.

2. Or on the other hand, small bussinesses can aspire to their own fortune, satisfied with having their common customers who enjoy their unique products.
What an amazingly hopeful message to give to our young people.."Think for yourself, find your opportunity and work hard; and you just might scrape up enough money to survive amid the corporate giants"..
As for that, many small businesses feel that way because of these "corporate giants" and are benefitted by their hatred as I said before. Following a passion of selling your own products to familliar, loyal customers is better than making millions of dollars to some people. How the Wal-Marts come into place is that they simply help these small businesses realize how much they love what they do and how much they hate what the big businesses do.
Passion is not built off of Income.

Wal-Mart's monopoly is weakening; people depend on it but many professionals are putting it down because of the horrid things it does. Therefore, when customers go into Wal-Mart and see all their advertisements for small businesses that actually directly tell customers to shop at those small businesses, they will think, "And why was I shopping here rather than there?" This proves my first point that I stated. Now, I am not saying that all customers will switch, but many will so that small businesses can begin to sell common neceseties (like you just said that they can not) without risk of getting shut down by Wal-Marts, and while customers are there, the small retailers can fulfill their own passion of selling the things they want.

Yes, there is a lot of ground yet to cover, and there is a lot of new things happening everyday. I look foward to what you have to say next! You have been a strong debater so far.

Falco Rex, your reply please!

True to a point; but as I previously mentioned; when Wal-Mart was a small business the economic landscape was very different..A small business could turn itself into a mega-store..Why?
Because there were no mega-stores or giant corporations already existant and making very sure no other small-businessmen got above themselves..
As I said; they can afford a nod or pat on the head to smaller companies even within their own stores..However; let those same folks they're advertising for grow to the point where they become competition; or even threaten to; and watch what happens..
What we're seeing today is economic stasis at the top of the pyramid; and stasis is never good for economies in the long run..They need to grow and change as surely as living beings do..



No it isn't..Passion can inspire hard work; which can lead to success; which can lead to income. In the retail fields however; government restrictions; amazingly high-taxes, and skyrocketing insurance costs; many of them inspired by big-business lobbyists; harshly punish the small businessman or woman..
Which limits income, minimizes success, and helps kill passion..
Do you see the vicious circle we've become entangled in?



But do they; after all? A small percentage may; but as we can clearly see day-to-day; most will just end up shopping at another huge chain like Super-Target or Meijer..
And even that business loss doesn't exactly kill Wal-Marts' quarterlies; if you get me..
Is competition among corporate giants a problem?
No; it's just natural capitalism; which brings me to the crux of our argument..
Unless the Government can lower business costs for the smaller businesses, we will never again in our time see a shooting-star-like success story like Wal-Mart..
Our local and small-scale merchants need to be allowed to flex thier wings again and charge reasonable prices for the better quality and service they try to provide us..
But they can't..
Again mostly because big businessmen have set or even passed the laws they have to operate under..
It's another example of a vicious circle; and it's time it was ended..

That is a major argument: Small businesses do have reasonable prices, big businesses do not. That is the reason for the decline in Wal-Mart's monopoly. How Wal-Mart gains income rather than losing money: Not covering half of their employees with benefits and illegally paying many below minimum wage.
Small businesses, again, benefit from this because not only will constumers begin to go to these stores due to Wal-Mart's bad reputation, but employees will flee there, too. This will result in Small Business Domination. Of course, they couldn't do it without the larger retailers help.



True, big businesses do not WANT small businesses to get larger than them but they are, however, helping them. Like I said before, large retailers post ads throughout their stores to encourage customers to shop for their unique, authentic, original items.



You really contradicted yourself... First you say, passion isn't built off of income, then you say that the lack of income kills passion. No it doesn't, like you said yourself. So, recall what I previously said:

2. Or on the other hand, small businesses can aspire to their own fortune, satisfied with having their common customers who enjoy their unique products.
What an amazingly hopeful message to give to our young people.."Think for yourself, find your opportunity and work hard; and you just might scrape up enough money to survive amid the corporate giants"..
As for that, many small businesses feel that way because of these "corporate giants" and are benefitted by their hatred as I said before. Following a passion of selling your own products to familiar, loyal customers is better than making millions of dollars to some people. How the Wal-Marts come into place is that they simply help these small businesses realize how much they love what they do and how much they hate what the big businesses do.
Passion is not built off of Income.

New Point:

Many people, who do not yet see the true nature of these big box stores, and still flock to them from out of town to shop there, stay there for an entire day. In doing this, they increase local restraunt sales. That is the big businesses that benefits these restraunts.

Ok; although this was the last counter-point made; let's go here first to clear up a misunderstanding..I wasn't disagreeing with you..When I typed "No it isn't", I was agreeing and then using what you said to build my own point..It wasn't a contradiction, it just lacked a comma, and that changed the way the sentence read..
It should have read "No, it isn't"..Were it not a rule violation I'd go back and edit that in for the sake of clarity..However..
Now that it's out of the way; let's move on; shall we?



If experience tells us anything; it's that people will go where they won't get hit as hard in thier pockets; no matter the sins of the retailers..It's sad; but when you have a family and bills; that's what you have to do regardless of morals and ethics..
Nor will harsh treatment of employees effect the long-term welfare of the store..
People need jobs..Even crappy ones..
What it does do is effect how long someone will stay employed there; but none of that hurts the profit margins very much, and the money still rolls in..
And the Mill still grinds out the record quarterly profits..
As, I said; without new laws in place; or even the old ones being more agressively enforced; that can never change..
And how can they be with big business pulling those strings?



We're covering the same ground here, but as I said..How many of those types of items does your average family need? How many can they even afford?
There's very little wiggle room in that kind of cottage industry to make multiple fortunes..
What we need is a more fair competition on staple items..
You can advertise for them all day, but that won't make them necessary; and Wal-Mart and their ilk are well aware of that..
They're laughing all the way to the bank because people are buying into thier condesending nods to the little guy..



Perhaps that was true once..Now however; they're just as likely to simply grab lunch at one of the many McDonalds or Subways' or other chains that exist right inside the store!
So you eat there and they can make a profit while paying rent directly to the Mega-store they operate out of..
It's a parasitic symbiosis where two or more huge chains help each other gain an even tighter grasp on your wallet; while edging out area restaurants..
The new monopolies use each other to get even farther ahead of the pack..
Welcome to Metropolis...
Enjoy your stay.

Ok, I am glad you can reconcile with this point being true(if that is what you went...). So in this particular way, Big Boxes unintentionally benefit small business.



That is true, but look towards the future, say the year...2012. Wal-Marts are going to have to change their ways and become a good, moral store or else fear being illegalized. How are they going to do this? They're not going to actually become moral, that will kill their income. What they will do, however, is mask their inappropriate ethics by doing favors to small business like they have already done, such as posting advertisements in their stores.
So it is a Win-win situation for small business. Big boxes either collapse or attempt to shield their immorality through directly benefitting them. What more could they ask for?



Well, say you are getting a new house. You need to spice it up a little bit. Say you are a tourist. Your not gonna go buy some milk at Wal-Mart. What if a kid wants to go out and buy some baseball cards? Only the best are at those local stores. Almost everyone has a unique passion, whether it is baseball, PEZ collecting, glassblowing, etc. Wal-Mart DOES NOT HAVE IT.
When a Wal-Mart moves into a city, all the attention goes to the Wal-Mart, right? But that means those ads. will get attention, too. So when a young lady sees a sign for a pottery shop that she always had an interest for, she will follow the finger of the Wal-Mart pointing directly to this small retailer.

But remember, it's not just the small businesses on the ads. that are being represented. What about the local advertising companies??? They are being benefited by the "generosity" of the Wal-Marts.



First of all, Subways are seldom in big box retailers. But, McDonalds, let's focus on that. Such a perfect example it is. McDonalds, with it's bad reputation, is also losing faith in customers. So, yes, perhaps it was true once. And it lost a lot of effect, and now shoppers from out of town will drive over to Big Al's BBQ down the street, then go to Pottery Barn right next door. Times have changed and remember, they're still a'changin'.



Thanks, I'll buy a couple of necessities, eat some quality food, and then fulfill my true passion-All thanks to the "monopoly"! And yes, I'll enjoy my stay.

Falco Rex we are eagerly awaiting your reply!

Sorry Aztec; I've had some personal family problems here and I haven't given Rambo the prompt attention he deserves here; but I shall endeavor to do my best in response..



So you are actually admitting that what big business does is wrong and immoral..It's a short jump from there to being downright illegal..
Wait..
You admitted that earlier when we were talking of Wal-Marts hiring policies on benefits and also the employment of illegal immigrants..
So where exactly does the glowing reference of big business come into play?
I know we may have agreed slightly on a more level playing field; and of big business helping small; but not on the particulars, I think..
Does Satan really promote true belief in God?
It's almost the same topic without religion,of course..
Fear and condescension may bring in a few dollars here and there; but by no means does it build a solid foundation for small business success..That only comes from the big boys in Washington relinquishing thier love of subsidy checks and lobbying dollars in favor of the betterment of the general economy...
Frankly; in the course of this debate, you've not brought a single point to bear that could contradict that thought; nor do I even expect you to find one..
Why?
Simply because it isn't possible. To do so would be putting the welfare of the many above the one, and most politicians are unable to do so..



I'm sorry to burst a bubble of positivity; I really am; but Wal-Mart has all of those things..Really..
I'm not being a jerk here. Just shop in one..You'll see them all..So much for the unique market..



Really? Because there's one in each of the Wal-Marts in my town alone..Tells you something about the larger picture..And yes; there are more; not just in Lafayette, Indiana..



Pottery Barn is also a chain franchise; in case you missed it; and Big Al is more than likely loading his food up with MSG just to compete with the Texas Road House just down the block..
That's the sad state we've come to..



...And nowhere in that sentence does it imply that the times are changing for the better..



Necessities are a gauranteed trip to whatever store you choose..As to quality; that's relative and subjective..What you consider quality may be absolute crap to me..Is McHeartProblems really quality?
Nor do I know what your true passion is..
If it's smothering entrepeneurship; you're well on your way with your argument so far..
In addition; is Wal-Marts' example the only one you have to use in a sea of monopolies?
If so; it's pretty weak; but so far it's all you've had to offer not only myself; but also our judges..
One huge company cannot convince us of the merits of all of them..

The wait is nothing, my friend, as long as I know it was for something serious. Let us continue..



Yes, and through that, small businesses are benefitted. It is, yes indirect, but still it is a large effect how the truth of one chain can lead to the growth in a moral, small business.



I'm sorry, but I mean the old fashion PEZ, the rookie Babe Bruth card, etc. In other words, the heartwarming things that seldom are found in big box stores. These things seem small but passion is larger than life.



Sad indeed, that the most stereotypical names have become chains. Well, I meant to put those names as just some "common" small business name. I didn't mean them as the actual stores; you can understand my point, though, correct?



It wasn't actually suppose to because, as times grow dimmer for larger business chains, the light shines brightly for small business.



It could be saving money, where as the morality of a chain would not matter. Therefore, wal-marts may survive, but it will be the small businesses that strive.



Well, recalling the resolution, I have been using Wal-Mart as my example of how a big chain can benefit small business.
But, if that is not good enough, here you have it:
Wal-Mart is our problem. Circuit City, Pottery Barn, etc. Do Not destroy a small business. They specialize in ONE THING. Whether it be electronics, entertainment, pottery, they all leave room for small businesses to strive. But then you ask, what about Target? What about K-Mart? Well, they are not like Wal-Mart. Small businesses can match or beat their prices in their specializing areas such as electronics, entertainment, collecting, etc. So if you think about it, a Circuit City may "monopolize" the electronic industry in a particular area, but who will drive 20 miles to save 20 cents on batteries, as they would for saving 100 dollars at Wal-Mart? So Wal-Mart really should be the only big business we shuld be discussing..

Falco Rex the 7 day time-limit for you to post has expired, if you need more time due to your personal reasons please let me know and an extension will be granted.

No thanks; I'm here; but if you'd like to grant me a post-mortem extension for that one I'd much appreciate it..



Unfortunately; as I've already mentioned; such items can not support more than one or two small businesses in any given area, and although it may help an individual or two it does nothing to bolster our general economy as a whole..If we lose ourselves in discussion of a microcosm we'll nevver make progress in the larger part of life..



Well, a couple; anyway..However; nowhere in your argument have you made a point that convinced me that small businesses can be viable, dynamic, and become a growth industry again..
Frankly, that will never happen again without a radical swing in our nations business practices and new laws that are actually enforced..



Tell the truth now..That chain that specializes in one thing only can undercut any price of a small businesses item..Therefore they take a small bite here and there..
Not much maybe. But consider that there are specialty franchises for most everything now..Therefore the variety of items offered by the specialty chains can add up to zero business for our fledgling businesses..
Some might consider specialty franchises themselves to be small business; but I know the expense that merely owning the name causes the store owners, and can tell you that they have to move huge volumns of product just to stay open..
And the corporate headquarters grind them under thier grist-mill if they can't..
As to the rest..
Big oil has destroyed the independant gas station owner..
Mass-retailers have edged out the individual convenience store manager..
Energy barons decide how much you will pay for the essentials of modern life, unchecked by anyone..
The list goes on..
So in that respect; no; I don't believe that Wal-Mart is all that is worth discussing..
What say you; my friend?

Well, as I come from the larger city of Houston, I have noticed that many small businesses have thrived despite the many, many larger retailers in the area. And wouldn't the "general community" be most affected by the larger communities? So, I don't really know how it is over in your small town, but in Houston-with the large Ship Channell and all- small businesses are hardly affected negatively by large business.



Who ever said success depends on the becoming of a growth industry? The small businesses that do, in fact, go out of businesses (such as those in your area)are benefitted from big retailers by the gift of learning... Also, they get to do something they love and that is worth something.
But...



Without a radical swing...Who says there won't be? And that's not the only thing that will benefit small business. Also, as I have stated, recall that big retailers' decreasing popularity is gradually benefitting small businesses more and more.

Remember, success does not only depend on economy. Look at me, for example. I wanted to become a musician until I got drafted into Vietnam. After the war- a failing war that I lost several friends in- I found my true passion. A mate of mine taught me about quantum mechanics and from then on I studied physics in college and became much more intellectual along the way.
The same goes for...say a gas station. The owner may get put out of business (which, infact, many local small gas stations in my area are striving better than ever) but decides that he wants to start a diner because one of his workers' wife made the best apple pie and shake. You learn your true passion from failure.

In some cases, small businesses may fail but that goes for everything. And this will go for anything, fail or succeed. But think in general, and it is clear that large businesses benefit small business more than they harm them.

As this debate is just about at its conclusion and Falco Rex has become MIA I will just hand this debate straight over to the judges so we can get some new debates started.

Debater 1: RamboIII

Relevancy: 9
Countering: 9
Style: 7
Persuasiveness: 6
Total: 31

Debater 2: Falco Rex

Relevancy: 9
Countering: 7
Style: 8
Persuasiveness: 9
Total: 33

Great debating from both sides. Could have used some outside sources but all together it seems like you both knew what you were talking about. Hopefully we'll get to see the both of you back here in the near future.

Debater 1: RamboIII

Relevancy: 8
Countering: 8
Style: 8
Persuasiveness: 6
Total: 30

Debater 2: Falco Rex

Relevancy: 9
Countering: 8
Style: 8
Persuasiveness: 9
Total:34

Very good debate!
Though, I thought the the Wal-mart example used by RamboIII was overused and didn't cover all the points FalcoRex was making. Some of the logic used by RamboIII was unrealistic. Overall, however, both sides did very well.

I really enjoyed this debate. Hopefully, FalcoRex's absence is not permanent

Debater 1: RamboIII

Relevancy: 9
Countering: 8
Style: 7
Persuasiveness: 7
Total: 31

Debater 2: Falco Rex

Relevancy: 9
Countering: 8
Style: 8
Persuasiveness: 9
Total: 34

Great debate.

As stated, a few links and other outside sources would have gone down a treat. But, all said and done a good debate.

RamboIII finishes this debate with a final score of 30.6.

Falco

RamboIII finishes this debate with a final score of 30.6.

Falco Rex

RamboIII finishes this debate with a final score of 30.6.

Falco Rex wins this debate with a final score 33.6.

Well done to both our debators and a big thanks to our awesome debate judges.