In one spot, no, but over the entire planet its a big difference.

Frog its a very big difference the layperson always says that , it can throw migrations off you have to see the planet as a whole not as seperate parts....wht we do to one part affects all the parts......

Can a vegan diet halt the progression of Sheri & frogfish's arguments? Are they the direct result of global warming? These are the studies I want to see done.

<yes, that was all very tongue in cheek>

This has been a very interesting thread and I've learned a whole bunch.

LOL we are drawing a crowd it seems Purplos...good questions lol..tahnkyou I appreciate the kind words aboutt he thread since me and frog have dominated it lol....."Hear that frog we got some readers" (scruffles frogs hair)

1 degree over the whole planet is nothing. to drastically affect life, you would need a temperature change of about 7 or more degrees in

wait a minute there frog,

where are you getting this idea that a 1 degree global temperature change would not have a significant impact?

The fact that temperatures are always changing. An animal that could not handle a 1 degree change would of never evolved...Way to 'weak'.

On the other hand, a drastic change of 10 degrees would send the world into a state of 'shock', like in the Permian Extinction (95%)

i was expecting some research references to your claims, frog.

it isn't just degree of change, but rate of change that is important. A global 1 degree adjustment doesn't occur suddenly, and organisms adapt to the change for the most part. Still, the change has an effect, not just in species being lost long term but in regional changes. Rivers can dry up, fertile land turned to desert, etc, and it does not take that much of a change in global average temperatures for this to happen.

Frog what are you disagreeing with?? Frog 1 degree is a huge shock to the system, the system is inter related and works together what you do to one part you affects the whole.... Diversity promotes survival and without it a domino effect is created.....Frog despite the fact we live in an 'information age" often the information we get is knowledge scarce especially true of the US, laws have actually been passed succesfully by lobbyists to prevent us from certain informations (13 states have such laws) ....In April 2001 a article was circulated by rebublicans the report was titled"Carbon dioxide is good for the enviorment" a 'real scientist would know this is a outright lie....High levels of carbon dioide will actually retard plant growth (and a report was put out on it by Mark shwartz 2002 published by Standford university..it said that 'elevated atmospheric CO2 actually reduces plant growth when combined with other likely consequesnces of climate change, namely higer tempatures, increased precipitation or increased nitrogen int he soil" yes plants breathe CO2 as it were its food, but the simplistic view promoted by industry and their captive politiicians "that more food is good" is simply wrong, even though it plays well on venues like right wing talk shows but no matter the amount of denial its not fooling the the insects and wildlife they are moving becasue the weather is changing....."

I lived the vegetarian lifestyle for two years and gained no favors ( health-wise ) for doing so. Please do not insult me like a novice. I would not do that to you, Misstress Berry. I call them as I see them and I see a generous group of rather un-healthy people in the vegetarians I know. Like I said; I feed some of them. As for my best friend, she happens to be overweight if not obese and I worry for her health and well-being. Especially now that she is having babies.

You can eat healthy foods ( I do ) but it does not seem to matter if you cut out this-or-that. Meat is not bad for you especially when balanced with leafy and flowering greens. The Human stomach was built to be semi-omnivorous. Balance and resisting compulsion seems to be the main keys for a healthy lifestyle, to me at least.

Have you told her your concerns?

Girty how old are you???? It is a common myth to say how unhealthy the vegetarian is, many vegetarians still eat dairy and fish the lacto ovo vegetaritan....A vegan does not eat any animal products......I am not opposed to eating meat if its needed and there are circumstances that is is needed colder climates etc but the human body was never intended to consume meat in th eamount many currently do and the health state of most reflects that......but beyond that its not needed it actually is the cause of major health issues, i am interested in my health and humanitys health and the shrign of the food supply it takes alot of water and grain to feed an animal for a lb of meat its seems imbalanced and so many around the world are hungry so a few can gorge themselves and in turn its taxing the health care indusrty and creating issues that antibiotics can no longer handle....Also there is no reason to treat animals in the manner they are treated, i know that I will become what I eat eventually so with that in mind i make choices that reflect that......In my family alone my dad and brother in law are on hihg blood pressure medication my dad has gout which is very painful, my mother has breast cancer and is obese, my sister has had breast cancer and many other health issues she is in her 30's so is her husband they are all meat eaters...In my house we are all heallthy we are approaching 40 i no longer have asthma or all the other things i once had as a meat eater, i am no longer using antibiotics and my kids go to the doctor for well children check ups neither has been on antibiotics or been sick enough to get them down.....we also contribute tiot he solution of the ecosystem issues that are serious and not likely to get better...Our doctor encourages our lifestyle and it is becoming a well known fact that the best one can do for themselves is eat for health......

Not really...


So???


Average CO2 levels are good for plant life...High CO2 levels only affect C3 plants, not C4...

Wow such stunning logic

Anything to back up that statement?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warmin...s_on_ecosystems

Both you and Sherri failed to have given links so far

frog its basic awareness , avinash and I just are well aware of what is transpiring it is you who isn't and needs links lol.......this is generally what happens you didn't know then you find a link that says what we are saying and it becomes that is what yo uwere saying all along...You have a pattern frog........this is what happens when one thinks he knows all there is to know he finds he knows very little....lol

Basic awareness that less than 1 degree drastically affects human life? Scientists have another word for it...BS Unless you get some proof to back up your propaganda, no one will believe you. You have no knowledge on this subject anyways...


Too bad I am right....lol

Frog you are part of the whole not seperate, that includes all of life, it is a flawed understanding to miss that. what affects one part affects the whole.Taking the human body as a example if one organ or system is affected they all are affected regardless of where the issue shows up.. you are young so having back pain may not be a reality for you but often the source of pain is not where the problem originates somewhere something is off its the same with the planet.....As it so often happens many don't listen till there is no other choice, sadly that is the American way the land of denial........Frog you can see the effects with your own eyes , truth is observable.......

frog, you said you like the bbc so here is something from them:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4660938.stm

its true a 1 degree temp change would have some effects on the world but nouthing major it would need to be at least a 5 degree change to start having and major effects to the world. people need to remember that earth has constantly gone threw times of high co2 and low co2 its a cycle plants use up the co2 so there is less the earth starts to cool after loosing this green house gas earth cools rainforets shrink less plants. becuae theres less plants co2 builds up earth heats up because of more green house gas. more plants means using up more co2. co2 goes away earth cools plants die its a cycle. people u need to remember this.

That kind man hyper took the time to post a excellent link , why not read it, Robbieb you have just repeated what frog said a few posts above and if you read the last few pages or so you will see that 1 degree in tempeture change is serious.....Its the standard it has to be 5 degrees to worry about just another justification to do nothing IMO....the awareness is needed now the changes are needed now, we are a point where if we don't collectively take this serious and err on the side of caution the onlly thing thriving down the road will be low oxygen thriving bacterias...lol......

rob,

when that one degree change leads to the lake you used to catch fish in turning into a desert leaving you with nothing you will see how climate change has a direct personal effect on human life.

more and more people live in areas that are at threat of drying up within the next half century. These slight changes will have profound effects on human life.

well if u realy wnat to get into the bacteria thing theres bacteria in ur intestine that doesnt need oxygen at all in fact its toxic to it. and as a scientist i can say that im not making excuses for people to continue to polute and damage the earth yes its in bad shape but i also feel that major changes need to be made before it can get better. basicly we need to changes our dependence for oil and we need to boost recycling and we need to wath where hazardous chemicals get dumped. i dont drink tap water u want ti know why ? because its been proven that in birth control pills only 40% of the estriogne in them gets usedi n the body the other 60% gets sent back into the water systems and it cant get filtered out this causes low sperm count for any animals in the water that ingest it. stupid things liek that will have a bigger effect on the world then a 1 degree change as of right now. the fact of the matter is with countries like india and china's growing population and faster oil consmption(china uses more oil then the u.s. now) its very dfficult to contorl these things. we need to get population down recycling up waste managment improved and start using natural substitues over the chemical ones. people need to realise that it took hundreds of years for us to get ourselves into this mess and it will take hundreds to get us out.

Robbie we are very well aware of this, we are vegans, we are using our lives to be the change that is needed ...it doens't help anything to come and and say it doens't matter it does matter and we all do count and contribute , its us the little guy who effects alot of change, it may be slow but things will change, the organic movement was people like us....I just got information today on alternative energy , there are lots each of us can do it all counts... I used to ride a bike to work everyday for 7 one half miles a day and before long there was a bike riding club, to care fo rthe enviorment... people inspire people....

veganism is a consept that along with vegeterainsm well eludes me. i dont understand the porpuse of giing up meat and animal products as am atempt ot better the world. i mean look at our closest living relatives chimps we share 99.4% of our dna with them. they hunt and eat meat its natural and its been proven that this influx of protien form meat is what helped develope large brains in the first place that makes u intelegent enough today to be using the internet and discuss such topics. i am a zoologist and i eat meat doesnt mean that i dont care aobut the animals i work with. what makes vegans feel that way? (not trying to be condesending just trying to understand ur view point)

rob,

my choice of a vegan diet was driven by our understanding of the human physiology. I did it initially to improve athletic performance. The optimal diet for the human is plant based. The catch is many many people do not operate in an optomal manner and thus can survive quite well on less than optimal diets. When it comes to protien, you should be aware that the only way you die from lack of protien is to starve to death, while there are a great deal of health risks associated with excess protien consumption.

What eludes me is that people do not want to do the honest research into diet and nutrition and instead just follow the herd. It is this thinking that causes us so many problems and makes change a slow process.

Now, in case you have not read the entire thread I should clarify meat is not the worst of the foods. Far worse are sugar and dairy, for example.

robbie i have chosen veganism for many reason the main being the hunger issue, i spent alot of time trying to figure out ways to see to it that the hungry get fed, everyday without meat feeds alot of people i feel as if I'm sharing the food supply, tha t is my core reason, then there is the planet the raising of meat causes alot of enviormental damage from polluting the waters to affecting the ecosystem by raping the rain forests..i no longer wanted to be a part of the problem. then there is the heinous treatment of animals is uncalled for and what we do to the so called least of us we do to all of us...then there is the health care system it is strained to say the least antibiotics no longer are effective due to the overuse and abuse of them in our meat supply..I'm actually not opposed to eating meat on ocassiion although I don't there are places and situations it is warranted i don't live in one of them. I also use less fuel to cook which adds up we use less resources as a whole....i also as hyper eat for health of myself and my childern are very healthy and i can say we aren't a drain to the system, my kids have not been on antibiotics becasue we eat for health, it doesn't take long for the typical american diet to wreak havoc on an immune sytem...i also support the local organic food supply so we all will one day have quality food instead of just some of us.....i also willnot suuport the fast food industry it is unethical in its practices from the way it treats the planet to how it treats its employees we have slave labor here in America in the fast food industry.it is a menace that goes after young children a drug pusher IMO.....i agree there is far worse than meat there isn't milk available that is good for you....They push this on our kids as if its the next wonder drink.....

Sheri, you will pleased to know I eat vegan for dinner now, my wife went all the way. I still love sushi and most meats, but I'm trying to keep meat for lunch only.

Arty that is awesome (((hugs)))) what made you finally convert Sheri?????your wife???that is so good you are doing so much good you have no idea or maybe you do cutting back meat by just 10 percent is so helpful to you and the planet...i'm so proud of you arty and your wife thankyou ((((hugs arty again)))))

Well my wife was almost vegan anyway, I'd told her I'd like to try atleast for dinner...your posts definitely sparked the thoughts. I'll give it my best shot.

Actually many scientists say that it wasn't the protein in meat that led to increased brain size, but rather the extra source of food that meat offered that led to the increase in brain size.

Arty I'm very happy for you and sherry.....

ty

thank you for the clarification on why u chose the vegan life style, like i said i wasnt trying to be condesending i jwas just wondering why people choose it. i undersatand ur thinking of the antibiotics and crule treatment of animals and not wanting to be a part of it but there are health meats out there. free range, kosher, to name a few dont have the crule treatment of animals nor the antibiotics in them. also farming cattle in north america isnt as dangerous to the enviorment as many think itsm ore the land clearing in south american and other areas that cuase the harm. rember cows eat the same parts of the grass and erode the ground the same as bullafo did when there hurdres roamed all over the plains of america. So as a new question what made u decide to go for no meat instead of healthy alternatives i.e. free range or kosher i mean u dont have to be jewish to eat kosher foods.

Robbie meat is very hard on the digestive system, i had a sluggish digestive and as you know anythng sitting in the intetines will reabsorb, yes there is organic meat but my logic is why eat it if you don't have too and don't need it..., and i have always had concerns it must be cooked to make sure it kills all the bacteria and it can't touch other food in its raw state and I choose health and eating meat won't and didn't have my body working at optimum performance, meat contains no fiber and no complex carbohydrates and wht ever nutrients it does have its not worth the risk,(now wioth the new irridation practices too many mutant carginogenics for my tastes) I have read its safer to eat out of the toilet than eat factory raised meat....poor eating habits don't take long to compromise the immune system IMO great health is as health does..I am 39 in a few days i am healthy now than i was in my 20's i no longer have asthma and many other annoying ailments. Meat is not a superior food iMO if was meant for the times you just couldn't get plants and nuts and fruits, Its been touted as superior but observably that is a a falsehood..unless you consider heart attacks and hypertension good health we don't need to eat cholesteral our body manufactors it .As far as the animals not hurting the enviorment just not true the majority of the water supply goes to the animals and grains and veges, the rain forest is being burned down at rates that they say it won't be here in 2o years (to house cattle so many can have a 99 cent hamburger..) the antibiotic situation is due in large part to the amount of antibiotics used in cattle it makes them grow faster more profit for the meat industry....
The laws reflect the power and control the meat industry has over us...In thirteen states a law has been passed to keep the public from finding out about how they tamper with the food supply....the laws are very lax here in america we are the only country that hasn't banned the use hormones and antibiotics, money is the concern not health those are odds i'm not willing to gamble with, there is no cure for anything so the best I can do is take care of myself..thats the hard reality of Capitatlism..... I stand for a safe food supply for all and I live it to the best of my ability.....

i too stand for healthy food. eat many fruits although im less keen on eating most veggies ill eat liek peas carrots rice potatos but not to much else in the veggie group. i do however see no problem in eating lean chicken or even a lean steak. espicaly for men. protien although can be obtained from plants and suplements is in meat and i strongly belive that there is the direct correlation with man eating more meat and brain size expanding. look at chimpanzees and gorillas chimps eat more protien threw hunting monkeys and such and threw eating termits and other insects and are closer to us geneticly and mentaly over gorillas who have less protien in ther bodys. im not saying that people should be eating a ton of meat but what i am saying is look it it more naturaly peopel would have certainly stole eggs caught reptiles and even chased away big cats form kills if they werre in numbers to obtain meat. the reason meat has the posibility of diseases is because its ususaly not eaten right after its killed fresh meat is ususaly healthy and clean. its when it is stored inporperly that it may pick up these pathogenes. also cooking meat is more a taste diffrenc then anything else i mean most peopel are acustume to cooked meat. so even if they are offered uncooked meat that is guaranteed free of any diseases they stil lwont eat it. people are omnivores thats whay we dont have teeth like a dog or teeth like a cow we dont have multy cahmbered stomach we do however have eyes infront of our faces a trait seen in almost ever preadator the exceptions are ones where this would hinder hunting like croc's whos eyes are on the top of its head this helps it while its in water. we dont have eyes on the side of our head that is used by animals like gazells who use them to avoid preadators better. also u keep saying plants are easier to digest them meat? but umm humans cant break down the alpha bonds in most plants this is why animalks evolved specific methods to cope with this i.e. re eathing there dung, chewing there cud, or by having certain bacteria in there system that can break these alfa bonds(such animals include termits that actualy cant digest the wood they have bacterian in them that do it for them) humans dont have any of these. wich further proves my thinking that humas werent ment to only eat plants

Robbie few if any have ever been sick because of plants or fruits other than in the processing or due to pesticides would be my input me included we tend to twist the info to suit our beleifs......I'm not opposed to occassional eating of meat 1 meal a month organic turkey or fish beyond that its too much of a health risk...Plants are assimilated much easier the parts that can't be tone our digestive its all for a purpose...Also we get more nutrients from plant based diet, I agree its is very difficult to get nutrients from meat these days other than if its fresh but it rarely is..you are eating dead putrified toxin ridden product it is what it is....Earlier in the thread the issue of our cannine teeth was explored thouroughly its often a reason people assume they were meant to eat meat every meal becasue they have cannines..read hypers posts they are very informed and he knows more about then i do.....


We are just sharing with you why we have chosen a vegan diet this is not a cause to get everyone Vegan or to judge or make one feel bad for eating meat for the record......I thinks it good to explore and reexplore nutrition often we know so little and we are starting to learn more as we learn more alot of the 'old' ways may not be the best for us or our ecosystem IMO.....

im afraid u may have gotten th wrong impression form my posts by no means am i saying your life style is wrong. im simplying trying to understand a a deeper level what makes u decide to become a vegan. there is actualy a tribe i forget where but they dont eat any plant materials at all there stricly carnivores and from what a iread they realy dont have to many helth problems. i liek to get every view point of a topic before making my own decision on it. i dont want you or any one else to think that im sitting here at my computer never meeting you and thinking that i know you enough to jusdege u in such a manner.

Oh My gosh no i didn't find you to be anything other than curious and kind and resepctful, I would ask alot of questions too and do...so many poke fun at us and never care to know beyond what they think they know, it was a nice change to have someone who was interested , adsk away i will do my best to answer...i haven[t heard of the carmivore tribe i would be interested in learning more...Are you exploring the vegetarian lifestyle or just curious??????i didn't feel judged thankyou for taking a moment to let us know you mean well....

no im afraid im not looking at a vegeterian dieat at this time nor have i ever. im a big meat eater. i personaly belive that people mostly should mostly eat fruits veggies and meat. i like to lift weights and im active in 2 forms of martical arts. people dont need dairy past the time of there teething althought i do drink milk and eat cheese. im a healthy person im alert and awake im at an ideal body weight. i have keen hearing strong health teeth apparently i have very healthy hair every time i get a hair cut someone tells me i have the best hair theyv seen in forever lol i have one alergy and its to cats but im not nessiceraly a cat person althought i did like my cat alot and she didnt affect my allergies at all which was kinda weird i tihnk. i get sick maby once a year if that. i dont see me needing to alter my diet to improve any thing right now.

robbieb how old are you?????

23 why?

Just as i thought ...Dude at 23 most are not thinking their eating is gonna hurt them , including me 29, 30-35 if you keep over loading on the protien, not eating the fruits and veges legumes grains you will see the effects of it....Of course you can spring back at 23 but its thirty three and this will be the first generation that will not outlive its parents....... some of the most renowned bodt builders and power lifters and finest athletes are vegan....vegetarian... a vegetarian builds muscle much better just for the record....i have sons i know......

and i lift weights i would know too and not only that i am friends with quiet a few body builders who compete. lean meat by anyone in the profession is what they say. not to say fruits and veggies do nouthng its far form the truth. alot of the time before competitions body buildes will only eat bannas because hte increase of potassium redusces water and makes the muscles more cut. i eat alot of fruits and certainly enough veggies. i find it very vety hard to belive espicaly after all thee anatomy classes i hadt to take in college to feel that me eating free range/kosher meats are going to injury my body EVER. and yea u take a few anatomy classes in high school and college when you are going for your degree in zoology.

i feel to each his own if u want to eat vegan and it works for your body that is gra and im happy for you but i eat meat and im exceptionaly fast rather strong i have an i.q. of 132 which is well above average. today at karate i taught 5 classes each one i decided that we shoudl do a major work out totaly in each of the 5 classes i didi 550 pushups 600 situps 150 squat thrusts and 200 squat kicks plus some things idk if u ever did that before but its no easy feet and all that was after i lifted this morning (btw i increased my max bench today i was so happy lol) so until one of these things starts to decline as i said prior i feel very little need to alter my diet. its not that i only eat large big burgers dripping with cheese and fat lol i eat alot of fruit i eat more thne enough veggies and i definalty eat my fair share of healthy meat

Robbie so do i i have been in the weght ligfting world for many years i know the philosophys..I've done it all i ate a diet like you too and i thought as you and said things just as you lol I ate a high protien diet and lifted with a trainer) at golds gym and muscle beach, i got too skinny , tone but very skinny.. couldn't grow muscle.do you know what high protien diet does???What is causing growth is the hormones Robbie i have been around the block a few times you aren't talking to someone that doesn't know what you are talking about...Are you doing steroids????Eat however you want i'm just giving the info you don't have to listen...lol i still lift i am a vegan i have put on muscles with this diet. I have a trainer now and when she found out I was a vegan she said i had the perfect diet....hmmm...We all know the muscle and fitness expert mentality they are rampant in the gym...lol Get a trainer and a nutritioinist .....

haha i have a trainer hes myboy form back in the day he does it for me he does it all and he ever coatches body builders im insulted that u even asked if i do steriods im 100% natural. i have never had a platue peod yet where i wasnt seeing increase one of the biggest problems is people dont take into account that muscles eat up calories so alot of the time people dont increase calorie intake so muscles get stronger but without the increase of calories they dont get bigger i take in about 3000 calories a day a little more on days i have karate or jujitsu along with lifting. im no stranger to the gym either my dear 4 days on 3 off as for nutrition i got that under control i dont WANT TO BE VEGAN!!!!! lol i love bacon and steak and chicken and tuna and crab and lobster and all that amazing food im definalty not in a postion to give it up right now for two reasons i dont belive humas are ment to live witohut meat remember im a zoologist so my thinking is based on hard studying and i base ythis off of humans closest living relative the chimp 99.4% of the same dna means we are very very simialr espicaly when u consider that the african and eropuean races only share 99.9% of the same dna so in tern humans to chim seems even closer chims eat meat chims love meat thy hunt and eat termits and all that good stuff so i fele very strongly that humas should eat meat. and second a variety diet is far better imo then a more reduced diet no including meat. let me put it to you this way the only real food humas can live off of wihtout suffering any real body damage is other people we can use every protien every carb ll of it. it u were staring and someone offerd u a human steak or a salad with nuts and all that stuff the human steak as grose as it sounds would be better for you. also scientist are discvering more and more "vegiterian animals" that actualty will eat meat scientist actualy video taped a wild hippo eating a wildebeast that died while the head was crossing the river yea. also i find a direct corelation with increse of meat protien and brain size i feel that the more meat that was taken in by our ancestos the larger the brain grew. so liek i said if you want to be vegan im happy for u i hope that u are and stay healthy i wish good health apon ur entire family. but by no means do i wih to be vegan at this point in my life. who knows maby 10 15 years down the road ill change my way of thinking but as for now im set in my ways.

i see you "know" i think you should eat however you want, yet becasue you have your 'set in your way views" doesn't mean they are valid......I know you are stuck in this big brain is due to meat....its our beleifs that create our behavior whether they make sense or not.....lol I wish you health too this is only a discussion......you are young as I said at your age you can counce back but it won't last forever...lol

yes well i cant prove my views are the right ones jsut as you cant prove yours are both sides have evidence backing them it would take al ong time and alot of research before a true victor can be found and in fact i belive that both are equal in the end

You are not getting any younger either...lol

Robbie it is well established that too much animal leads to a myriad of disease, any doctor any hmo any PPO will confirm this ......Its observable also, are you not seeing the new commercials for health????the leading issues today is hypertension, and diabetes each are diet originated...incidently its in young peopel,,,we have an epidemic of dieabetes and heart disease...robbie they also once uopn a time said smoking wasn't harmful to your health too.......Unless you are eating one meal a month of meat and no more than one serving a week of fish youare eating too much, most are eating too much becasue most consume huge amounts of dairy also...also the levels of mercury in fish accounts for alot of illness you have to be darn sure you aren't eating mercury laden fish...alot just won't eat fish any more....I can't help but wondre if sars didn't have something to do with that...also too much mercury will lead to hair loss.....This is just info you can dismiss it and go on I'm just psoting in case anyone cares lol