Craven that is what hyper said balance health with garbage, meat and dairy aren't health foods lol...Interesting play on words "I LIKE TO SPOIL MYSELF ON FOOD A FEW TIMES A WEEK"....Thats exactly what some foods do spoil the human organism lol...Oh do you beleive the myth that a vegan doesn't enjoy eating??i'd say more so because with ttheir eating they know they are getting health by default lol ...no future health issues to take the joy of life....

This is your opinion. Nothing else. You can say that meat and dairy is garbage. That is nothing but your opinion. For as many studies supporting vegan, you can find studies show meat and dairy as good part of a balanced diet. I love yogurt. The benefits from it for the digestive systems are immense. Just curious Sherri. Are you a stay at home mom?

Funny you crackpots should be raving about how healthy it is to be Vegan. My wife's Stepfather is Vegan and has been since he was 16. He is now 60 and is currently dying from liver, bone and prostate cancer. He has never smoked or drank before you ask the famous vegan cop-out questions and now to get some vitamin A back into his body is eating raw ox liver. He is also eating raw fish to try and get enough potassium in his body. I find it strange that vege's as you say have everything the body needs until you are dying and then all of the sudden you can turn your back on your own vegan propaganda to try and save your arse without ever admitting you were wrong.
Fair dinkum !, you lot need to wake up to yourselves.
Your sprout on and on about read this and that info from other vegetarians and vegans. Run down any info from non vegetarians and refuse to even look at anything that is unbiased just in case you may be wrong. You are a joke !.
Get over your own BS and stop justifying your lifestyle with vegan propaganda. Something you so often accuse anyone who enjoys a steak or drink of milk of doing.

BURN!!!!!

and refering to vegans as crackpots is accomplishing what exactly, oracle?

FYI, I do read many different sources on diet, nutrition, exercise, genetics, etc.

I will always say there are four main factor groups that effect health: environmental, genetics, diet, and exercise. Please don't go off on how "this person is a vegan and dying..." because it does not contribute to the discussion as we do not know what factors were the major causes of his illness. All we can do is control the factors we have choices in but that does not grant some guarentee. As for turning on his diet, well, you will find many people will turn on just about anything when they are desperately clinging to the hope they can survive. Welcome to the human condition.

As for running down, no I am not "running down" in such a broad manner. All I will do is give the info and leave it to whomever is interested to make their own decisions. If you can go out and catch your own prey, all the power to you. If you rely on the commercial food system to provide you, well that is another matter.

Maybe you need to wake up oracle.

So if you're healthy and vegan it's perfectly alright to brag all you want?

vitamin A deficency in a vegan hmm that is interesting oracle either you don't understand nutrition or you are in error on your father in law.....dark green veges are an excellent source of Vitamin A , also potassium is in many fruits and vegetables..It would appear you have an axe to grind with the vegan bunch...The vitamin A available in dairy and 'ox liver' is insignificant alot comes into play depends onthe diet of the animal...

Actually I think it is showing you the difference between living in the real world and living in vegan fairy land sweetie.
But then again, I wouldn't expect you or your cronies to be able to stop pissin in each others pockets long enough to know the difference.

I personally am not one for "bragging rights" at all.

However, when we look at the history of the vegan movement we see for years vegans had to listen to insulting language directed their way by "meaties" so somehow it seems fitting that when study after study after study shows vegans have fewer health issues and longer life expectancy that those who put down veganism with no basis get a good hard dose of REALITY.

Yes, that is REALITY, oracle. Something you seem to have an issue with.

Oracle it seems you are just flaming and trolling, you came on here and posted info that is in error, care to address that????I'm not impressed with a debater that uses insults as his arguement..... the typical issues associated with a vitamin a deficincy are not as you are claiming...definciencys appear as rough, dry skin,skin diseases in general, allergies, dandruff, night blindness, eye inflamattions etc etc......I'm truly saddened for your father but unless he was a vegan eatring iceberg lettuce and french fries to be deficient in vitamin A or potassium is very bizarre.......hmmm....

Oh yes we are so burned by antecdotal evidence

Why is that? Because she is a celebrity her opinions or experiences are invalidated? Thats funny.

So Drew Barrymore is unqualified, but YOU, ME and the rest of us clowns are?

....

Where did I say she was unqualified because she was a celebrity? (you need to reread my post)



Apparantly other people on the internet

You never qualified "why". Reread MY post. I asked you if her celebrity is the reason.

You never answered. I am waiting.

While I wait...here is another: What qualifies you to disqualify her? Are you a nutritionist or health care professional? Maybe it is merely opinion.

Seems wrong. Because the vegans want to tout all the benefits and don't want to hear any negatives. The vegans are also quick to make all of us who enjoy meat and dairy feel less than human. Vegans in general want to push their lifestyle like a religion.

No her celebrity is not the reason, I thought that it was clear that I was making two points in my statement, first that her clebrity status gives her opinion no more bearing that some schmoe on the street, and that she's unqualified on top of that, since last I heard she has no actual background in any nutrition related field (As for me no I am not a nutritionist, the extent of my studies in this field have been a few nutrition/health classes at college)

Actually, I really enjoyed his posts. You need to come out of your vegan ivory tower. Your not superior to anyone on this board just because you are a vegan and before you cry foul. That is how you come across in your posts.

I see, Avinash. Sorry to sound like a prick,

As for Drew Barrymore, she comes off as a drunkard and a moron, so I (like you) lend her opinion no more weight than that of a 7 year old. Plus, her movies suck.

No problem, i'll try to be clearer in the future

Sherri, you may not be impressed with my insults but at least I am upfront about doing. I am sick and tired of your sly condescending comment making people feel less than human because they enjoy a bit of meat and have milk for breakfast.
I find your passive aggressiveness intolorable and I am sure I am not alone in saying this.
I don't care one bit if you want to be vegan, fruitarian, calathumpian or whatever but don't get on here all high and mighty putting people down just to justify your choices. Not once in my life has a doctor or nutritionist ever advised me to go on a vegan diet. Let me guess...you have a great meat eaters conspiracy theory for that too ?...come off the grass.

Bravo. I would toast my beer to you, but I am sure it is horrible for me too and I am already the lowest of the low as a meat eater.

that is based on what how well you know me ???How much we hang out????Look craven you are filtering my posts through your awareness, I don't play the relative game of labels and heiriarchial rank.......I post info possibly it is of interest or possibly it isn't you decide ...Its not personal don't turn it into that, its a discussion on health...... Back on topic .......

yes because you never put others down

When you post and make people feel less than human for their diet, you make it personal. Your post drip with your disgust at people who eat meat and enjoy dairy. Say what you will, but makes you come off like a snob. No one likes to be belittled and thats what you do whether you realize it or not. And my screen name is ERIC RAVEN not craven as you like to jab me with. Beri beri.

You are telling more about yourself then anything about me, Nor am i concerned with "people" or fall apart becasue someone dislikes me who cares this is a forum to talk on differnt things.... "getting me' has no bearing here lol, i am a bit versed in the vegan lifestyle and post to that effect, I can suggest this if my posts bother you i would not be offended if you ignored them......
dude its a thread on healthy lifestyle....You are taking it way to serious lol.......

How can we not take it serously. You constantly put down people that enjoy meat. You may do it between the lines, but it is there.

Eric I am not responsible for how you recieve my message...Its coming through your filters...look its a thread on vegans and vegetarians...thats the topic....What you do with your body is on you ..... On the name i read it differntly my mistake....I have no reason to belittle anyone that is just absurd...

eric its not there dude, I have no reason to put you down, I ate meat once too...If anything i'd care about you and your health , i start these threads for that reason to give info....not for any other reason....you in the end decide what it means to you......

I am not the only one that thinks this. You may not see it, but the meaning comes through.

That doesn't make it so...I'm sorry but i define me not you or anyone else.....its your issue eric..if you want to discuss vegetarians or food great I'm interested but i'm not interested in your personal dramas....I'd like to get back on topic if you have further grievances take it up with a mod.....

Does anyone here believe that we should NOT eat meat?

Yes, I do. We should not eat meat.

I'm not concerned whether or not "we" should eat meat or not... but I sure know that "I" enjoy my meat!

If i may hvn why wouldn't it matter to you the quality of what you eat???i'm just curious...trying to see from your perspective...

On the meat question meglo i see no need for meat and actually at the current rate of production i would lean very strongly towards it may not be the best thing to put in the body the beneifits aren't enough to warrant eating it, based on the very intensive research and understandings I now have of the whole food industy.....I do feel if one eats meat to buy directly from a rancher ( know whos preparing your meat know his bleives and life philosophy) or hunt it yourself but even then I'd be careful............

Then, please explain why the first man threw a stick at an animal, and ate the remains?
Instincts?

And if you're a religious man,
Why did Jesus serve fish at that famous dinner?

Meglo the bible is hearsay some even beleive jesus was a metaphor, to try and prove eating meat by the bible is as silly as trying to prove dietys by using the bible........lol


again you speak of mans throwing a stick at an animal as established fact again its hearsay , we really can't be sure if its true or not.....for all we know Veganism may of been the norm..... are you gonna break out the cannine teeth arguement ????lol

eating meat is a choice , you don't need to eat meat to survive ..but its your choice,

The Bible is not hearsay, it is text, there is proof of Jesus the Carpenter. The man did exist, if you do not belive in the miracles he performed, please keep it to yourself. I would like to read opinions here on diet. No need to bolster an argument with a religious fulcrum. Personally, I believe that such a sad copout takes all the wind out of an argument.

Why (in my personal experience) do all vegitarians have bad breath??

and

we were meant to eat meat gosh, has nobody seen the Sam Neil ad????? Don't Vegans watch TV???? Good Lord as if Sam Neil would lead us astray!!!!!!!!

Bible, whatever.
I don't really care, I'm not religious, however he may be - and he may be able to answer.

-----------

Now,
"We can't be sure if a man threw a stick at an animal or not"?
Well, I've seen it. I don't know about you.

For one, look at the Aussie Aborigines.
They ate animals. And they have been doing that for as long as they've been alive...
The Ancient Egyptians ate fish and chicken, as well as other meats.

Even the Homo Habilis, approx. 2.5 million years ago, were thought to have eaten meat.
Homo Ergaster, approx 1.9 million years ago, used to cook meat using fire.

Veganism being the norm?
I doubt it

good grief mega,

now your fishing for validity for meat consumption in the past.

This denys the very real current research on the effects of meat on health. Humans are capable of eating meat, but it is not our optimal food source. We thrive much better without it.

If you want to draw on mythology or ancient ancestory, are you next going to introduce arguments for the validity of stoning people to death, or for abandoning modern language .

Sure sherri .. not at all...

I guess everyone is passionate about something... and I guess eating meat just doesn't concern me ... as I feel eating some meat is healthy.

I eat what I feel is healthy... I don't eat too much of one thing.. I eat a variety of foods.. and I try to go by the food pyramid.. which is impossible.. LOL (too much food in one day)

I do eat a lot of fish and chicken... I do eat red meat occassionally ... but not a lot. I don't eat anything fried.

Now ... Back to why I don't think it bothers me....

Okay.. I have OCD (and yes.. diagnosed)... Now if my house isn't clean.. or my bills not paid.. or something out of place.. or something left undone.. now YES.. I am very passionate about that.. and very neurotic about those things... and I guess everybody has their little quirks.

After all these discussions here on UM.. I have tried to look at what I eat differently.. and to be honest .. what I eat doesn't concern me.. why?... now that I don't know.

For example.. I fixed a deli smoked turkey sandwich on whole wheat... with a little mustard... and before I ate it .. I tried to look at it from your perspective.. (scary that I thought of you outside of UM righ? ) ... and I just couldn't get on that level of being that concerned that I was eating meat.

It doesn't bother me that a turkey had to die for me to have a turkey sandwich... and I checked the ingredients.. and there was very little sodium... (which I never salt my food.. so the only sodium I get is what foods already have in them)... mostly just white meat turkey and water, very low fat ... and very few calories.

So no.. not in the least bit does it concern me that I ate that turkey sandwich. I am eating goldfish crackers right now.. and that doesn't concern me either.

That is my view... after trying to see it from your view.

I have a question now.. I was thinking .. do you ever eat out at a restaurant.. and what would a vegan order out?

I ate out last night.. and again was thinking about how a vegan would order.. (we went to Chilis').. I had a chicken fajita pita.. it had grilled chicken, lettuce, tomatoes, and red and green bell peppers. And I didn't get fries as a side.. I got black beans, and I don't feel that was unhealthy at all.. but out of curiosity... what would you order?

~Nxt

I would like to say that with the population here on UM being a mixed diverson of people ranging from assorted ages; you should Sheri Berri, have stated in the beginning of your thread that you are not a Doctor. You are giving wrong advise to people and you could eventually harm them with your beliefs of the Vegetarian lifestyle. All of my doctor's would never recommend a vegetarian diet because human meed meat for our muscle and nerves to perform properly. What we need is a well-balanced diet which includes meat and dairy.
Meat and dairy also do not produce sugar like some vegetables and fruits.
Young people, older people all people need and benefit having protein-rich meats and dairy in their diets.
Please don't take what this unqualified individual named Sher Beri has to say to heart. Listen only to medical professionals at all times when dealing with your health.

Bex, i posted this too.....
On the meat question meglo i see no need for meat and actually at the current rate of production i would lean very strongly towards it may not be the best thing to put in the body the beneifits aren't enough to warrant eating it, based on the very intensive research and understandings I now have of the whole food industy.....I do feel if one eats meat to buy directly from a rancher ( know whos preparing your meat know his bleives and life philosophy) or hunt it yourself but even then I'd be careful............
i guess you missed this post Bex.......the research is out there, you are saying htings taht are in error, you do not need meat you choose to eat meat..unless you go to a nutritonist a 'doctor' isn't a nutritionist.......thats why there are nutritonists and interesting mine told me the optimal diet is the vegan diet........I guess you aren't aware of the illness asscociated with 'protien rich diets and dairy.......any manual for a doctors office will tell you to limit intake of dairy and meat, excerssie....etc........this is a thread on vegetarians and vegans its sharing info on the lifestyle, not everyone is for the vegan lifestyle you decide if it means anything to you .....lol

thanks hvn for answering I do eat at restruants on occassion but only vegetarian ones, we go all the time to a vegetarian resturant it is fully oraganic..so i eat vegan things....the last time i was in a chinese resturant i ordered brocolli and got food posioning i believe it was from MSG...so I decided to stay out of 'regular' resturants...


good for you Hvn that was a pretty good choice..What is OCD???? You know Hvn some ago i didn't put much thought into my diet either and t really was a fluke i became a vegan, so in learning about it ( I have kids) I am not a mother who r takes chances and just wings it I took classes read alot went to a nutritonist My doctor sent me to a nutritonist (she said she wasn't versed in the subject) and it opened a whole world i never payed attention too I also have a vegan doctor and denist...I too thought you have to eat meat your body can't survive....It never occured to me that the dairy and meat industry generated this to sell meat.....there is much we don't know about nutrition( thas all I'm really doing here is sharing what i have learned along the way and what i'm still learning) alot of it is wrong and as a mother I can't blindly bury my head in the sand put my trust in places that aren't in my best interest....for us my family and kids and me especially i thought I was healthy yet I had no idea what that meant till i became passionate about health...but if eating meat works for you thats your choice, i have no issue with that......

OCD is obsessive compulsive disorder.... I am very compulsive about some things and also have anxiety disorders. I have taken meds in the past, and have an open prescription for Paxil and Ativan... but don't take the Paxil and only take the Ativan for severe anxiety.

The only reason I used that as an example.. is because people say I am neurotic about being clean and being organized... as you have said you are neurotic about eating organic and very healthy.

I also understand your reason for veganism and organic eating, since you have children. I do not have children.. I worry so much .. I would probably do the same thing!! LOL

I am full of questions today... so I have another for you... have you ever heard of Detox patches? (here is a link on them Detox patches)

It says they are herbal.. and was thinking of checking them out.

Thanks,
Nxt

I have not heard of the patches...Hmm whats the ingrediants? and then look up each one jsut to be safeI have to ask lol....
thankyou for your kind words Hvn...

It seems you still are interested in detoxing?????did you ever go to your friends doctors if i remeber correctly?????Are you a member of a gym by chance??????many gyms have a nutrtionist on staff included in your fee....you could probably get some detox ideas...I have read alot on the subject but it seemed just cutting out meat and dairy detoxs many do that maybe you could do it for a weekend ...but on anything research all persepctives then decide okay.....
do you think you need to detox?????? I'm glad you don't take the paxil, truthfully those drugs spook me ....does your stress get pretty bad??????I wish you all the best Hvn, you seem like a very lovely person.....

Yes.. I am very interested in detoxing... and really feel that I need it. I just think it would make me feel more energetic.. and I think if I ever do it.. it is something I would do regularly to keep my system cleaned out.

Here is some information on the detox patches I mentioned:

Silver Slimming foot detox patches are totally natural and contain no additives. The original idea for the detoxing ingredients contained in the Patch came from the study of trees. Scientists were keen to find out how trees had the power to absorb water from the ground and purify it to enable healthy growth. They discovered that pure sap fluid (also called wood vinegar) has the ability to absorb toxins through the skin when applied to acupuncture points on the human body.

The pads are used on the feet according to the Chinese tradition of foot reflexology. Foot reflexology is an ancient treatment whereby different areas on the soles of the feet relate to glands, organs, and other parts of the body. Stimulating the nerve endings in the feet improves energy flow and circulation to problem areas of the body, clearing toxin build-up and enabling elimination of waste. The feet are therefore the best place for effective use of the pads. The ingredients in the pads stimulate the nerve endings, draw out the toxins, and pass their cleansing powers into the body’s system.

Wood vinegars Origin ~ Wood vinegar (Pyroligneous acid) is tree sap fluid that has not been condensed, diluted or mixed with any similar substances. Pyroligneous acid is a complete and pure wood vinegar first developed in Japan.

Function ~ Researchers discovered that the tree sap or wood vinegar of some trees possess a detox function. During numerous experiments conducted on the potential value of Pyroligneous acid, it was found that the wood vinegar had great absorbing power, and that the wood vinegar of certain trees was capable of helping absorb toxins released through the skin.

The pads contain wood vinegar from Eucalyptus, Bamboo & Oak tree sap. The dried sap from these trees is believed to absorb toxins through the skin and has detoxing and sterilising properties. Tourmaline

Origin ~ Tourmaline is a natural mineral found in Brazil. Function ~ Tourmaline emits negative ions and Far Infrared Rays (FIR). It improves circulation, relieves stress, increases mental alertness and strengthens the body’s immune system.

Tourmaline is used in the Patch to stimulate the sole’s reflex points, and the effects are similar to those of a foot reflexology massage.

Agaricus Mushroom

Origin ~ Agaricus mushroom ~ Agaricus blazei Murril ~ is harvested from Brazilian jungles. Function ~ The Agaricus blazei Murril is rich in polysaccharide compounds, which assist in boosting the immune system. Polysaccharides (glucans) are large, complex branched, chain-like molecules built from many smaller units of sugar molecules. Research has found that the two principal polysaccharide compounds that exist in this mushroom are Beta Glucans.

Beta Glucan is a natural compound that triggers an immune response in the body, which builds a better system of defence against viral, bacterial and parasitic invaders. It enhances macrophage activity ~ macrophages ingest bacteria and cell debris.

Scientists have conducted studies that showed the Agaricus mushroom to be an immune system stimulant, which can fight some forms of cancer by preventing the proliferation of alien cells.

And yes.. I am a member of a gym... I will check to see if they have a nutritionist... and maybe they can help with detox.

Paxil scares me too... I took Zoloft a few years ago.. it helped.. but too many side effects. When I went back to the doctor this year with anxiety attacks... I had told him I wouldn't take an SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors)... which is what Zoloft, Paxill, Wellbutrin .. etc.. are. But he prescribed it to me anyway... I refuse to take it. The Ativan is benzodiazepine... and I only take it on an "as needed basis".. only if I have a severe anxiety attack... which I am happy to say it has been well over a month since I had to take one. Yay for me!!!

Thanks for your kind words.. as I too think I am a lovely person.. (once you get to know me)... one who believes in what she believes in, but willing and curious to learn about others... much like yourself..

hmm on the patch....I don't know Hvn i'd have to look into it if i was gonna do it whose manufacturing etc....I'm fondly called a food cop by many of my freinds lol......

Yes you do seem interested in learning as I am...I have learned alot on these threads the main reason i come are some really knowlegable people stop in .....


i would play it safe and go the nutritionist route..... but thats just me.....


gosh the few people that I have known that have taken the ssri's girl i have seen really amazing people go down hill as you said the side effects....On prozac a dear friend of mine killed himself,it was actually a side effect.... so I'm really glad to hear you stay away....good for you...Yahoo on your 1 month and no aniety attacks i have had those no fun....

So you are saying the clinically depressed should throw away their meds?Those drugs you put down have saved many people from killing themselves and living in misery. You are unbelievable. Everything can't be done with just nutrition. Are you a scientologist?Is Tom"i am crazy"Cruise your hero?

Sherri -

Another question..

Have you ever tried quorn? I haven't .. but my vegetarian friend in Scotland loves it... and uses it in everything.

I have read that it's not very popular here in the U.S. because it has made some people sick.. because of severe allergic reactions to it.

I do like tofu.. and know a lady that ate it every day for lunch and lowered her cholesterol by a huge margin... so I know it's good for you.

But quorn is something I have been interested in trying.. but have read some negative along with positive information on the web.

I have heard of it but have not used it, nor do i think its that easy to get is it>>>>Are you gonna try it????......


Tofu, i use it occasionally that and tempeh but again I'm careful....I don't personally use the soy meats and what not but i know those that do, i love the fact I don't need meat, i didn't like it naturally, to get me to eat meat was a chore for my grandfolks, i use the tofu as i would if it was meat on occassion...I'm more the macrobiotic philosophy which eats in tune and as close to nature as possible.....including i try not to eat foods that are more than 30 or 40 miles away...... Living in california allows for this, i couldn't do this if I lived elsewhere......and yet i aspire to be the caliber of vegan Hyper is he actually blows me away.......its an evolving thing...I started first by cutting out meat then went from there.......

I wanted to tell you i detoxed naturally just eating fruits and veges....although i had years of chemicals in me from smoking something you did not do( good for You)...i got really sick to but after it was over i no longer had asthma and a host of other things, now other than brocolli poising I got a few months ago from a chinese resturant (MSG) I find my health improves.....i trip out on that, and i actually didn't even realize how much eating contributes to good health I called myself healthy with asthma go figure......but we have no real measure in western society so i went with the herd too.....i am learning just like anyone else...lol


You seem to really care about your health to me you are very resepctful Hvn.....thankyou.....