Avinash_Tyagi
Jun 14 2006, 01:00 AM
QUOTE(frogfish @ Jun 13 2006, 07:34 PM) [snapback]1230383[/snapback]
Bias
That's because vegans are always a little more health concious than the average person. If you put the two health-concious people that are exactly the same on a vegan diet, and the other on a healthy mixed diet, the one would fare better in the mixed.
Frog you just accused Hyper of being Biased and yet what you said is just as biased, in fact even moreso due to a lack of supporting evidence.
hyperactive
Jun 14 2006, 01:17 AM
Nxt2Hvn
Jun 14 2006, 01:20 AM
QUOTE(hyperactive @ Jun 14 2006, 01:17 AM) [snapback]1230504[/snapback]
Hey cool... that article is from the News & Observer ... out of Raleigh NC... I know that paper.. because I am from Eastern NC originally...
Just an observation 
Nxt2Hvn
Jun 14 2006, 01:24 AM
Hey ... I noticed in that article.. that it suggests food substitutes that some vegans here on UM have said they won't eat....
I can see eating the substitutes for milk and meat and such... but the hardcore vegans here on UM have said they don't eat those things...
I am not sure about you Hyper... I don't recall you saying either.. that you do or don't.... so I am not trying to quote you... just what I have gotten from some of the vegans.
* Veggie meat substitutes. I discussed these in a previous column, but it's worth repeating: Veggie burger patties, meatless hot dogs and cold cuts, sausages and bacon, and meatless burger crumbles that look like ground beef can be found in mainstream supermarkets and are far more healthful than their meat counterparts. They taste great, too.
* Soymilk and rice milk. Fortified with calcium and vitamins A and D, they're better for your health than cow's milk. During the holidays, look for one of my favorite products: Silk brand eggnog made with soymilk. It's delicious, and you can feel OK about drinking a large glass of it.
* Egg replacer. Find Ener-G Egg Replacer in natural foods stores. Packed in a 1-pound box, the white powdery mixture of vegetable starches, mixed with a few tablespoons of water, can be used in place of whole eggs in almost any recipe.
halo_slightly_askew
Jun 14 2006, 07:37 AM
Hello everyone, new here and my first post.
This thread was an interesting read, learned a lot from both sides. Personally, I am a believer in a balanced diet of meat and veggies, my own preference, but I have many friends who are happy, healthy veggies and Vegans. As a nurse, I’ve seen my share of both healthy meat eaters and healthy veggie/Vegans, but I’ve also seen unhealthy meat eaters and unhealthy vegetarians/Vegans. I disagree that the “unhealthy vegetarian” is a “myth”. There are those who don’t know enough about what they are doing and through their lack of knowledge “abuse” the vegetarian/Vegan diet, so to speak, and therefore cause themselves to be and look unhealthy. I’m amazed at how many people see being a vegetarian as “trendy” and jump on the vegwagon without doing their research, yet we had regular patients who did so which we referred to dieticians and nutritionists. I don’t believe the veg diet is unhealthy in of itself, rather how it is sometimes used.
I would like to direct a comment to Sheri berri and say that while I respect your passion and knowledge for your lifestyle, more knowledge than I have on the topic for sure, these comments are somewhat incorrect:
“Good point avin there has not been one recorded case even in third world countries of a protien deficiency..."
"Avatar everything has protien it's darn near impossible to be deficient in protien, not even in a third world country..."
(I will learn how to quote)
Marasmus and kwashiorkor are both protein-energy malnutrition (PEM) deficiencies in young children and currently the most important nutritional problem in Asia, Latin America, the Near East and Africa. They are also classified as a multi-nutrient deficiency as it’s not only a lack of protein energy that leads to these disorders, but protein does play a large part. Sadly, most of these cases are found in famine and sub-standard living conditions, developing countries, but they are also found in all parts of the world in all standards of living. Balanced against this is the simple fact that these people and children don’t have access to all of the nutrients they need as a veg/Vegan does, but the point is that protein deficiencies do exist.
Here’s a link for PEM in general:
http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/sec...chapter2/2c######p
And another, a bit more detailed:
“Marasmus is a serious worldwide problem that involves more than 50 million children younger than 5 years. According to the World Health Organization (WHO), 49% of the 10.4 million deaths occurring in children younger than 5 years in developing countries are associated with PEM.” …I don’t find that to be a myth.
http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic164.htm
In regards to the discussions concerning our past, I’d like to add that a majority of anthropologists and archaeologists believe that our ancestors began strictly as plant gatherers before eventually moving into the hunting/gathering phase. They were nomads, small bands of gatherers dependent on the amount of resources provided by nature in any given area. They moved from place to place gathering plants simply because they were intelligent enough to not deplete the resources available to them. They may have moved occasionally in response to predators pursuing them as someone mentioned, I don‘t know, but they moved to specifically take advantage of various plants offered in various areas during different seasons of the year, with water sources being the determining factor.
Hunting, once learned, was an added supplement to the diet. In recent studies contained in my anthropology/archaeology textbooks (working on Bachelors) it was found that once our ancestors became more sedentary and learned farming/domestication of plants and relied more heavily on a plant diet once again, they were not as healthy as they once were when they were nomadic hunter/gatherers. They got lazy and “civilized” and didn’t rely on hunting as much as a source of food. Of course, they also didn’t have the variety of foods and methods to balance out their diets out as vegs/Vegans do today. Just thought it was an interesting study. As everything in prehistoric anthro/arch, there is always controversy regarding theories.
I’ll shut up now.
Megalomania
Jun 14 2006, 11:31 AM
QUOTE(halo_slightly_askew @ Jun 14 2006, 05:37 PM) [snapback]1230786[/snapback]
Hello everyone, new here and my first post.
This thread was an interesting read, learned a lot from both sides. Personally, I am a believer in a balanced diet of meat and veggies, my own preference, but I have many friends who are happy, healthy veggies and Vegans. As a nurse, I’ve seen my share of both healthy meat eaters and healthy veggie/Vegans, but I’ve also seen unhealthy meat eaters and unhealthy vegetarians/Vegans. I disagree that the “unhealthy vegetarian” is a “myth”. There are those who don’t know enough about what they are doing and through their lack of knowledge “abuse” the vegetarian/Vegan diet, so to speak, and therefore cause themselves to be and look unhealthy. I’m amazed at how many people see being a vegetarian as “trendy” and jump on the vegwagon without doing their research, yet we had regular patients who did so which we referred to dieticians and nutritionists. I don’t believe the veg diet is unhealthy in of itself, rather how it is sometimes used.
I would like to direct a comment to Sheri berri and say that while I respect your passion and knowledge for your lifestyle, more knowledge than I have on the topic for sure, these comments are somewhat incorrect:
“Good point avin there has not been one recorded case even in third world countries of a protien deficiency..."
"Avatar everything has protien it's darn near impossible to be deficient in protien, not even in a third world country..."
(I will learn how to quote)
Marasmus and kwashiorkor are both protein-energy malnutrition (PEM) deficiencies in young children and currently the most important nutritional problem in Asia, Latin America, the Near East and Africa. They are also classified as a multi-nutrient deficiency as it’s not only a lack of protein energy that leads to these disorders, but protein does play a large part. Sadly, most of these cases are found in famine and sub-standard living conditions, developing countries, but they are also found in all parts of the world in all standards of living. Balanced against this is the simple fact that these people and children don’t have access to all of the nutrients they need as a veg/Vegan does, but the point is that protein deficiencies do exist.
Here’s a link for PEM in general:
http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/sec...pter2/2c######p
And another, a bit more detailed:
“Marasmus is a serious worldwide problem that involves more than 50 million children younger than 5 years. According to the World Health Organization (WHO), 49% of the 10.4 million deaths occurring in children younger than 5 years in developing countries are associated with PEM.” …I don’t find that to be a myth.
http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic164.htm
In regards to the discussions concerning our past, I’d like to add that a majority of anthropologists and archaeologists believe that our ancestors began strictly as plant gatherers before eventually moving into the hunting/gathering phase. They were nomads, small bands of gatherers dependent on the amount of resources provided by nature in any given area. They moved from place to place gathering plants simply because they were intelligent enough to not deplete the resources available to them. They may have moved occasionally in response to predators pursuing them as someone mentioned, I don‘t know, but they moved to specifically take advantage of various plants offered in various areas during different seasons of the year, with water sources being the determining factor.
Hunting, once learned, was an added supplement to the diet. In recent studies contained in my anthropology/archaeology textbooks (working on Bachelors) it was found that once our ancestors became more sedentary and learned farming/domestication of plants and relied more heavily on a plant diet once again, they were not as healthy as they once were when they were nomadic hunter/gatherers. They got lazy and “civilized” and didn’t rely on hunting as much as a source of food. Of course, they also didn’t have the variety of foods and methods to balance out their diets out as vegs/Vegans do today. Just thought it was an interesting study. As everything in prehistoric anthro/arch, there is always controversy regarding theories.
I’ll shut up now. Great post.
I would like to ask, by nurse, you mean the hospital dweller, right?
halo_slightly_askew
Jun 14 2006, 08:49 PM
QUOTE(Megalomania @ Jun 14 2006, 06:31 AM) [snapback]1230877[/snapback]
Great post.
I would like to ask, by nurse, you mean the hospital dweller, right?
Thanks, Megalomania.
Yes, a registered nurse for 12 years in hospital and in private practice settings.
frogfish
Jun 14 2006, 09:29 PM
Do you specialize in anything? Oncology, Neurology, ICU?
My dad has been a Neurologist for almost 20 years and my Mom was a Cardiologist for 15.
halo_slightly_askew
Jun 14 2006, 10:26 PM
QUOTE(frogfish @ Jun 14 2006, 04:29 PM) [snapback]1231511[/snapback]
Do you specialize in anything? Oncology, Neurology, ICU?
My dad has been a Neurologist for almost 20 years and my Mom was a Cardiologist for 15.
Hi frogfish. I've worked in many areas of the field, pediatrics, oncology, orthopedics, psych, med surg. Working as a floater in the hospitals I went where ever I was needed when units were running on a short shift. Most of my time was spent in pediatrics and med-surg, caring for those pre and post surgery. In private practices I mainly worked general family, pediatrics and dermatology. I left the field full-time a year and a half ago, returned to school to pursue other degrees.
P.S. Thanks for the welcome
frogfish
Jun 14 2006, 11:10 PM
QUOTE
I left the field full-time a year and a half ago,
Nursing is a hard, high-stress job
halo_slightly_askew
Jun 14 2006, 11:50 PM
QUOTE(frogfish @ Jun 14 2006, 06:10 PM) [snapback]1231683[/snapback]
Nursing is a hard, high-stress job
Only if one allows it to be
Beckys_Mom
Jun 15 2006, 12:54 AM
QUOTE(halo_slightly_askew @ Jun 15 2006, 12:50 AM) [snapback]1231759[/snapback]
Only if one allows it to be
In the UK and Ireland..they dont get paid enough..they once threatened to go on strike...I think nurses should get a higher rate than they get now
Megalomania
Jun 15 2006, 07:44 AM
QUOTE(halo_slightly_askew @ Jun 15 2006, 06:49 AM) [snapback]1231457[/snapback]
Thanks, Megalomania.
Yes, a registered nurse for 12 years in hospital and in private practice settings.
Hmmm, so much for doctors/nurses not knowing much about nutrition.
Well, you proved that myth wrong.
halo_slightly_askew
Jun 15 2006, 08:19 AM
QUOTE(Megalomania @ Jun 15 2006, 02:44 AM) [snapback]1232195[/snapback]
Hmmm, so much for doctors/nurses not knowing much about nutrition.
Well, you proved that myth wrong.
Lol. I saw that. And will get around to it soon
hyperactive
Jun 15 2006, 03:11 PM
QUOTE(Megalomania @ Jun 15 2006, 12:44 AM) [snapback]1232195[/snapback]
Hmmm, so much for doctors/nurses not knowing much about nutrition.
Well, you proved that myth wrong.
mega,
do you know what n=1 refers to?
this is on top of the fact you are drawing on the incorrect population to disprove this "myth" as you call it.
Megalomania
Jun 16 2006, 06:00 AM
QUOTE(hyperactive @ Jun 16 2006, 01:11 AM) [snapback]1232492[/snapback]
mega,
do you know what n=1 refers to?
this is on top of the fact you are drawing on the incorrect population to disprove this "myth" as you call it.
...
Right.
And no, I don't know what n=1 refers to.... enlighten me.
Beckys_Mom
Jun 17 2006, 09:05 AM
QUOTE(Megalomania @ Jun 16 2006, 07:00 AM) [snapback]1233574[/snapback]
...
Right.
And no, I don't know what n=1 refers to.... enlighten me.
Yea hyper me too....please explain
Avinash_Tyagi
Jun 17 2006, 09:39 AM
Well I can't speak for what Hyper meant, however in mathematics, n is a variable, so saying n=1 is equivalent to saying when n is equal to one.
halo_slightly_askew
Jun 17 2006, 07:29 PM
N represents the number of items that are being studied in a specific case. N = 1 usually means the observation you’ve made is likely limited to one occurrence. Or, what is found in one circumstance may not be generalizable to similar cases, meaning that your deduction carries no significance.
In it’s simplest form it’s a way of telling someone they’re wrong.
N = 1..…false return.
That’s my understanding of it. Maybe Hyper has a different meaning…
hyperactive
Jun 17 2006, 10:51 PM
fairly close, halo.
In simple terms, I was saying the sample size (1) from the target population (doctors) was not great enough to ensure a representative sample and thus anything discovered from the sample can not be used to make predictions about the target population.
et's daddy
Jun 21 2006, 03:56 PM
will there ever be a day when the world is beyond eating meat as the general rule ?
Nxt2Hvn
Jun 21 2006, 05:11 PM
QUOTE(et's daddy @ Jun 21 2006, 03:56 PM) [snapback]1240202[/snapback]
will there ever be a day when the world is beyond eating meat as the general rule ?
Not at my house... I have actually tried eating only veggies and grains.. and I don't stay full.. I actually can tell when I don't eat meat.
Avinash_Tyagi
Jun 21 2006, 06:29 PM
QUOTE(Nxt2Hvn @ Jun 21 2006, 01:11 PM) [snapback]1240329[/snapback]
Not at my house... I have actually tried eating only veggies and grains.. and I don't stay full.. I actually can tell when I don't eat meat.
Have you tried Tempeh or Tofu as a replacement for Meat?
TheOracle
Jun 22 2006, 12:11 AM
QUOTE(et's daddy @ Jun 22 2006, 01:56 AM) [snapback]1240202[/snapback]
will there ever be a day when the world is beyond eating meat as the general rule ?
Why the hell should they ?
Besides, if everyone stopped eating meet the vegetarians would have to find another equally rediculous issue to carry on about. Maybe they could whinge about the death of innocent lettuce and how said lettuce are murdered for our salads when clearly we could survive without them.
__Kratos__
Jun 22 2006, 12:44 AM
QUOTE(et's daddy @ Jun 21 2006, 10:56 AM) [snapback]1240202[/snapback]
will there ever be a day when the world is beyond eating meat as the general rule ?
Hopefully not in my lifetime.
QUOTE
Why the hell should they ?
Besides, if everyone stopped eating meet the vegetarians would have to find another equally rediculous issue to carry on about. Maybe they could whinge about the death of innocent lettuce and how said lettuce are murdered for our salads when clearly we could survive without them.
So true. Some people can't live without whining.
Avinash_Tyagi
Jun 22 2006, 02:25 AM
QUOTE
Maybe they could whinge about the death of innocent lettuce and how said lettuce are murdered for our salads when clearly we could survive without them.
As soon as science progresses far enough, we'll get to the point where we can survive without eating any living creature. Maybe then we'll have the noterians arguing here;)
Cjk10000
Jun 22 2006, 03:40 AM
Vegetables + Meat (Not bad meat, must have 0 trans fat at least) = Good health
Grains + Sugar = Addiction + Disease
SwiftPetra
Jun 22 2006, 09:43 AM
It's all a matter of keeping to a well balanced diet. Meat and vegetables are fine so long as neither is taken to excess. Sticking to this, it should be unecessary to include vitamin supplements.
-------------------------------------
"It's as clear as res3ia" (anon.)
-------------------------------------
Megalomania
Jun 22 2006, 10:38 AM
QUOTE(hyperactive @ Jun 18 2006, 08:51 AM) [snapback]1235445[/snapback]
fairly close, halo.
In simple terms, I was saying the sample size (1) from the target population (doctors) was not great enough to ensure a representative sample and thus anything discovered from the sample can not be used to make predictions about the target population.
Ah. Yes. That's not what we're arguing though.
frogfish
Jun 22 2006, 12:22 PM
QUOTE
It's all a matter of keeping to a well balanced diet. Meat and vegetables are fine so long as neither is taken to excess
Yay! That what I have always been saying!
JACK NEON
Jun 23 2006, 10:59 AM
QUOTE
They do not feel pain. Yes, they are living, and yes, they do grow, but they do not understand pain, unlike animals, which are beings capable of thought and emotion, just like us. I thought that was pretty obvious. Also, as I quoted above:
Maybe I should point out one thing to you the animals do not feel pain either click they probably don't even realise what hit them it may be gruesome but is actually more humane than any other method. Eat a little meat it won't hurt and it is continuing a natural process that
MUST happen
frogfish
Jun 23 2006, 12:30 PM
QUOTE
Maybe I should point out one thing to you the animals do not feel pain either click they probably don't even realise what hit them it may be gruesome but is actually more humane than any other method. Eat a little meat it won't hurt and it is continuing a natural process that MUST happen
actually, they do feel pain...They have a little thing called a CNS
JACK NEON
Jun 25 2006, 02:57 PM
Notice the arguments for the healthiness of vegetarianism only distinguish between vegetarians and non vegetarians. I'm sorry but that is too vague to be used as supporting evidence. A proper survey would group people into how much meat they eat with vegetarian zero then a little bit (not that inaccurate) but you get the idea. Then see if there is a general increase in poor health effects with meat consumption or whether my prediction that the people who eat a little but some meat are healthier than vegetarians.
frogfish
Jun 26 2006, 02:50 AM
QUOTE
Notice the arguments for the healthiness of vegetarianism only distinguish between vegetarians and non vegetarians. I'm sorry but that is too vague to be used as supporting evidence. A proper survey would group people into how much meat they eat with vegetarian zero then a little bit (not that inaccurate) but you get the idea. Then see if there is a general increase in poor health effects with meat consumption or whether my prediction that the people who eat a little but some meat are healthier than vegetarians.
Ypu still haven't acknowledged my post.
JACK NEON
Jun 26 2006, 12:34 PM
Typical killing method cut on the neck severs the central nerve making pain absent as there is nothing to send pain messages to the brain.
Unless of cause I am misinformed on killing methods.
frogfish
Jun 26 2006, 10:05 PM
QUOTE
Typical killing method cut on the neck severs the central nerve making pain absent as there is nothing to send pain messages to the brain.
Unless of cause I am misinformed on killing methods.
But they DO experience pain in the way they are held until slaughter.
The Skeptic Eric Raven
Jun 27 2006, 08:51 PM
QUOTE(TheOracle @ Jun 21 2006, 07:11 PM) [snapback]1240800[/snapback]
Why the hell should they ?
Besides, if everyone stopped eating meet the vegetarians would have to find another equally rediculous issue to carry on about. Maybe they could whinge about the death of innocent lettuce and how said lettuce are murdered for our salads when clearly we could survive without them.
LMAO. You got that right.
Megalomania
Jun 28 2006, 05:51 AM
QUOTE(frogfish @ Jun 27 2006, 08:05 AM) [snapback]1246925[/snapback]
But they DO experience pain in the way they are held until slaughter.
Ah, but whichever way they go, they would most likely feel pain.
There is no painless life.
frogfish
Jun 28 2006, 12:27 PM
QUOTE
Ah, but whichever way they go, they would most likely feel pain.
There is no painless life.
Don't get me wrong, I am totally for meat-eating...just needed to point out his mistake.
mklsgl
Jun 28 2006, 06:33 PM
QUOTE(TheOracle @ Jun 22 2006, 01:11 AM) [snapback]1240800[/snapback]
Why the hell should they ?
Besides, if everyone stopped eating meet the vegetarians would have to find another equally rediculous issue to carry on about. Maybe they could whinge about the death of innocent lettuce and how said lettuce are murdered for our salads when clearly we could survive without them.
This comment clearly identifies you among The World's Greatest Thinkers. Does genius ever stop flowing from your mind?
By the way, it's 'meat' not meet; 'ridiculous' not rediculous; and, 'whine' not whinge.
Tangerine Sheri
Jul 1 2006, 05:15 AM
QUOTE(mklsgl @ Jun 28 2006, 11:33 AM) [snapback]1249989[/snapback]
This comment clearly identifies you among The World's Greatest Thinkers. Does genius ever stop flowing from your mind?
By the way, it's 'meat' not meet; 'ridiculous' not rediculous; and, 'whine' not whinge.
Who would of thought that a few vegans looking to learn from each other and converse would attract such a crowd....
The Skeptic Eric Raven
Jul 1 2006, 04:47 PM
QUOTE(Sheri berri @ Jul 1 2006, 12:15 AM) [snapback]1253686[/snapback]
Who would of thought that a few vegans looking to learn from each other and converse would attract such a crowd....
I guess its your glowing personality.
The Skeptic Eric Raven
Jul 1 2006, 04:55 PM
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ Jun 13 2006, 02:19 PM) [snapback]1230028[/snapback]
Umm does he have one of the finests minds on UM cuz he agrees with you on certain topics such as...................this one??
I am not saying he dont have a great mind..no not at all but if he disagreed with you...would you be as keen to say that??
Look Sheri...you preach like a religious person does with their bible......when it comes to food and drink ...which is fine...but when it comes to stuff like this...just becuase YOU is dead against it and is a
plain out right health fanatic ( like an extremist christian lol) ...thats it...if you dont agree with it...its haevy preaching all the way....thats why people find it all rude...thats why you get into tight spots....there is NO CALL for it Sheri......its like I say to religious folks...quit trying to push your beliefs on to others.....Sheri sweetie that's what you are doing....
I understand you are taking a stand for what you believe in and I ADMIRE you for it...but girl you paint a pic of someone that looks down on those who eat meat...drink alchol...smoke a ciggy...eat junk food...ect....
you give me the impression you are looking down on me too......only person I see agreeing with you is Hyper....good for himYou take frogfish, me and a few others on here...we like to eat meat...we dont go over the top...we dont preach meat is better than veg or fruit....we dont look down on others who dont eat it...we dont sould like junk food fanatics...girly you are what is known as a health fanatic...one of these days you will do yourself harm...and thats something I DONT WANT TO SEE...NO...I luvies you as a friend...but girl CHILL IT with the preaching..you have turned into something you detest...(much like the extremists) a preacher...preaching the health bible if you will
You told me Hyper was a skinny guy...you too I imagine are rather skinny...THIS IS WHY!!! Over doing it....geee girl please try and stop the OTT health crap....
you need food that will give you strenth too....veg aint going to do that alone now is it??...You need a lil meat on your bones..you can still look great with a bit more shape...you go to the GYM..more times than a christian would pray slow the heck down chick please for your own goodHow did I miss this wonderfully correct post?? Go Becky....
Beckys_Mom
Jul 1 2006, 08:15 PM
QUOTE(JACK NEON @ Jun 26 2006, 01:34 PM) [snapback]1246272[/snapback]
Typical killing method cut on the neck severs the central nerve making pain absent as there is nothing to send pain messages to the brain.
Unless of cause I am misinformed on killing methods.
Hmm not so sure on that...i'll cut you a deal...lemme try it out on you...if you squeal..then we will know..if not..meh you must be imformed alrght in killing methods..either way we have a result!!
Just kidding LOL
Beckys_Mom
Jul 1 2006, 08:19 PM
QUOTE(ericraven2003 @ Jul 1 2006, 05:55 PM) [snapback]1254011[/snapback]
How did I miss this wonderfully correct post?? Go Becky....
Aww thank you eric...you did miss it...but heck it was high time someone took a stand...I just cant stand those that act all high and mighty, making others feel bad for how they live...all without thinking...tragic wouldnt you agree??
Look at me I am a vegan, I am the vegie God..you will all rot in vegie hell
gimme a break!!
Beckys_Mom
Jul 1 2006, 08:22 PM
QUOTE(ericraven2003 @ Jul 1 2006, 05:47 PM) [snapback]1253998[/snapback]
I guess its your glowing personality.
She has one of those??
man I must of missed it LOL
Fluffybunny
Jul 2 2006, 03:30 PM
There is just too much childish bickering going on; it is absolutely uncalled for and out of line.
Closed
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