it is true, a 5 year old does not know logic and does not respect reason. Which is why, as pointed out, a 5 y.o. on a tricycle should not be riding alone. My son did something like that at about that age, maybe 4, I was riding beside him and he sped away, turned a corner, when I caught up to him, he was gone. The bike was there, but no child. He went into a building where his friends were. In a sheer and utter panick, I grabbed him, no I did not spank him. What I did? I had to tell him instead what could happen if he did that, the risks, the dangers. If I'd spanked him, and just left it at that, it would not have changed anything. Instead, warning him of the dangers, he didn't do it again. Kids are not logical, but if explained in a way that they can understand, to the level of the child, I find it's a much better way to teach them the right way. Spanking only shows them anger, they loose trust in their parent, the parents they love unconditionnaly, they learn to fear them, thus breaking the first and ultimate bond of trust.

Verbal abuse is very wrong also. Telling a child he is stupid is just as bad as spanking him. Again, he expects unconditionnal love from his parent, hearing this belittles him/her and makes them feel inadequate and creates issues of insecurity.
And, then the pattern becomes that of abuse in exchanges at school, bullying, then later in relationships.
My parents, weren't the best, but they did the best they could and they did teach me respect. They never hit me. They never belittled me, and I admire them greatly for that.

Sherri,
Do you ever take more than a nano-second to fully digest what one says in a post?
Who said anything about spanking guaranteeing anything? I am tiring of having to explain very well stated posts to you.



Perhaps it would help in communications if you would simply take the time to apply the subject of Grammar to your posts. Your posts for the most part come off as incoherent and gibberishy because of your lack of clearly defined sentences.

...and yes Becky's Mom and Worshipper of Sherri Berri...(hmmm....that sounded a bit religious, don't tell Sherri I called you that) I am a parent. And no, I don't spank my 8 year old girl...nor do I yell...with this one you have to use a good deal of reason and logic. As last resort, punishments of loss of privelege are used. And btw...the punishments are not to make her 'obey'. As I have told her...I cannot make you obey...there are however consequences for disobeying, it's your choice, and it's always your choice wether you want to obey or suffer the consequences for not obeying...I cannot make you obey...it is your choice.

Another one I would like to add. Your child just gets his/her drivers liscence and asks you for the keys to your vehicle.And of course you give them now do you say:

"Don't crash."
or
"Drive Safely."

Thanks hyper something else to keep us thinking

Well 1st of all I would say...if a parent was to say -- "You stupid child" that is verbal abuse
Although there are plenty that would twist words around to suit themselves like if a parent was to say -- "What you did was stupid" - there will always be some muppet that will claim that too is abusive

How about this one ..... --- "Come on now, you are acting the idiot" !! compared to ...-- "You are an idiot" .......now I can clearly see the big difference in those two statements......the 1st one is not calling someone an idiot...it's just saying for that moment in time the person is just acting (key word acting) the idiot...and yet I have even seen this line posted many times here on this very board...and low and behold some clown replies saying............"hey I am not an idiot, no need for mean name calling" when clearly it's NOT...they do this for an excuse to make you look the bad one

With any statement, it's always more beneficial to the child or even adult to speak in positive terms. Don't Crash insinuates negativity. Where as Drive safely insinuates positity and doesn't make the child feel like he can't drive.

I tell my son every day, "do your best, I know you can, you are smart, creative and talented"
Every day, at least 4 times a day I tell him I love him and to be himself, no matter what. Even if tempted, don't copy other kids just to fit in, Always to be himself. Remain True to himself and unique and special, because he is the Only Him he can be, and that is awesome.

The problem is that the child can't tell the difference. Yelling, shouting, screaming, name calling, it is all verbal abuse and reflects on the mindset of the adult rather than that of the child.

That is true a child can't tell the difference...so WHY spank/beat them?

Are you a parent yourself joc?

Yes. I answered you earlier...guess you missed it:

It doesn't really matter wich you say. Those types of small comments aren't even important. Especially to teenagers. They get the idea either way.


For those who complain about religious people pushing their beliefs on others, I'd like to say you're being a bit of a hypocrit. You're trynig to shove your parenting do's and don'ts down our throats.

Sorry I didn't see it the 1st time...and I don't worship Sheri LOL I love her as a good friend and i'll stick by her but...the Berri clan is just something we like ...the ONLY ones I worship are...My child..Partner(but at times debatable) Parents & God himself....I am the only member of the Berri Clan that is a believer BM sticks out like a sore thumb...amen to that

Excellent call hyper, not enough air time has been given to verbal abuse, I don't even allow my children t give themselves negative messages, i will help them relanguage, kids pick up things a friend says i suck at this game, next all the kids are saying it, i try to catch it and relanguage it, I think you become what you beleive about yourself, if you aren't in your own corner who will be....Also as parents we have to be very very careful on what we say to our kids becasue they define themselves by our messages this is so important....And in the event you do on occassion say stupid things to your child correct it right away...alot is gained from that, the messages we recieve from our parents goes along way in the life experince we have......i try not ot use the word stupid if i can help it....

Well, to be honest. I see it like so:


When a kid is old enough to think for themselves, they "mold" their own personality. I am VERY "different" than most of my family. I'm unique.

So, I personally believe in alot of cases when a kid is old enough to think for themselves, all of what a parent has said, has a VERY MINOR affect on the person.


I mean hell, I can't go and kill 30 people and then blame it on my parents. Who can then blame it on THEIR parents, etc, etc...


And it's also not good to overprotect your kids from everything. Then when they enter the real world, they'll be in for a serious rude awakening.

you mothers are very perceptive.

i did sort of lead you off with two statements containing the word "stupid". Good to see you all understand the differences between and differing consequences of negative vs positive reinforcement.

zero,

you have much to learn, my young friend.

Joc, i read your posts all of them...i was adding my 2 cents to a post that had a great point ...For some reason you are very defensive with me.....

About the typing thing i'm doing my best and thankyou for taking the time to read my posts anyways, the critisim is duly noted and many agree with you, maybe you 'll get used to me eventually.....


I think that was a bit silly the Bec's Ma is a worshipper are you jealous?????We are what a friendship looks like and I have a few here who i resepct also bec's ma is one of them, so is Hyper, Micheal, Star, Jmpd!, curiousity, Zan the man, mako. and even you..etc etc....by means not hte only ones but you get the point.....


thankyou for the contributions on your daughter......

Not on this subject. I am living it right now. You don't even know me or my parents, so your comment holds absolutley no basis.

yet you are not even aware of how the world around you influences who you are!

"unconscience incompetence": not knowing what ou do not know.

it is where everybody begins on every subject.

I never disagreed with that. I only said that your parents do not influence you much at certain ages. And alof of young kids, are also this way. They like to do things their own way. Not because that's a result of how the parents raised them, but it's part of their personality. I must note that we are born with a personality(no crap, eh), not every little thing and behavior is a result of what our parents did, or the environments we were in.

Zero as a parent we want to give the tools that will help them in life, your attitude towards life is negative, a child who is positive in reinforcemnet sees the world as safe a place he can trust a place that is benefical....

I will agree thought that with the proper help and attitude you can turn around anything and actually become a voice of change, many people come from your background to go on to do great works Zero...Star, Becs ma....... i'm not throwing in the towel on you LB

how will you define yourself Zero????personality is a construct Zero,


Hyper

I think verbal assault leaves marks on the psyche, just as physical blows do on the body. Especially if the verbal insult is coming from someone claiming to be a role model for the child. (Parent, grand folks, teachers, etc...)

I love to watch babies play. The light in their eyes as they experience for the first time all those things we that are older and have forgotten that place, take for granted. And babies laughter is one of my favorite sounds.

Now imagine someone berating that baby for simply being a baby. Verbally demeaning their actions with name calling or harsh criticism rather than constructive, and that child's light starts to become overshadowed by fear. Fear for being who they are that that role model has to yell at them to bring it to their attention that that self just is not acceptable!
Then soon after the precious tinkle in that babies laughter takes on another tone. A fearful tone, because all they see in the world, all that which makes their new eyes wide with wonder, is changed for fear that who they are, seeing all that, obviously (thanks to the example that verbal abuse instilled) isn't acceptable to those that watch over them and judge how they behave. So now, everything that was at first open to their experience, is predicated on how others will react.

And all that, over a period of time, makes a child very self-conscious and insecure about themselves and how they relate to the rest of the world because their guides in the journey, those role-models, that claim to be worthy of the privilege of guiding them, have deeply instilled the notion that "They" (that child) are ____________________<Insert degrading verbally abusive terms here. Which , if they are ever in the company of their peers, is doubly impactive if/when, those peers are so outgoing and their particular role models are kinder than their own. Which instills the thought that there simply must be something that makes that child "wrong" in some way, in comparison to everyone around them that are not treated as they are.

Eventually, that chronic state of affairs can lead the child to grow into someone that is either very insecure and withdrawn or egocentric. Unconsciously assuming a demeanor of self-preservation in the event the verbal abuse is chronic enough in the formative years, that they are "special" in some way or misunderstood and different from the rest of the world and their peers. Hence the verbal abuse that they may surmise was rendered because those role models and others, just didn't understand them or how different or special they were.

Thing is, a child is perfect. Religion aside, every child is a pure being born from the source of something that creates everything else in this world too. They're new here and as such are not burdened with the weight of the experience long years of living garners for the older members of their world. They are open to the experience in every way and they do mimic what they see from those that teach them how it's done.

And those parents or role models that commit to the instruction of those little ones, were once little themselves. And they too mimicked and adapted to the environment set before them. Consequently, verbally/physically abusive parents, on average, are former children that were verbally and physically abused themselves. The horrific heartbreak of that is that that impression those that are adult now received as those abused babes is what sticks with them as they grow up and into a life of their own, only to pass on what they know which is what keeps the cycle of abuse alive.

My advice to anyone that has lived through the experience of being abused, especially verbally, is to take a deep breath before committing to repeating that which broke their heart when they were so young. Imagine, before one spews out those harsh criticisms, how it felt to hear it as a child. Or how it felt to feel it, in the case of physical abuse. The passion of emotion, angry emotions, is sometimes hard to catch before it let's loose. However if one comes to an awareness of what they experienced and the impact that made back in the day, they have but to pause just for a moment and decide if they want what they remember feeling, to be felt by the one they care about or gave birth to, today.

What an awesome responsibility and privilege to give life to the future.

What a tragedy if the memory one instills in that process is one of violence and pain. What a legacy it is that remains alive long after the abuser is dead, as those abused remember until the day they die what the abuser did in the time they had to make that second chance at changing the life they had themselves, no different for someone else they were entrusted to show the way.


Goddess Bless The Child.

No matter if a child is "positivley reinforced" or not, if he lives in a violent area of the earth, then he will see it as violent. Doesn't take rocket science for that, now eh? I don't look at the world in a negative way, I just say what I see.


Personality is a construct?


What the HELL? Then what do you suppose we are? A body with no brain.?

Zero I live in a very diverse violent area myself are you kidding Los angeles, but i see it as a gift and so do the kids, diversity has led to great understanding and tolerance , Drug dealers live across the street from me bangers live all over, we aren't bothered by it, its childhood tools, i'm actyually resepctful of all regardless of what they do for a living> i don't live in fear and neither do my kids life is what you make it.........

You buy alot into conditioning LB.....i think and its only a suggestion but it wouldn't be the worst thing for you to listetn to hyper he is very smart, he's trying to help you.....

Actually YOU Buy into conditionining. You're trying to get me to buy into the idea that we are conditioned by our parents. And your kids are home schooled, might I ask you, how much do they get out with other kids? What sorts of social activities?

Fact #493875:

If you aren't a parent....then you are clueless about what being a parent is about.


It's just one of those things that you can't know unless you know.





The most important things IMO you can give your child is:

A. Lots of love.
B. Lots of love.
C. Lots of love.

, Ah the ole socialization question and one every home schooled child gets asked??what does it meant t be the "other" how does one fit in or adapt to society????the area i live in is so diverse and so much to 'do' so many differnt lifestyles from the very rich to ghetto and the arts he is exposed to it all I'm in the beach community of California the oppoutunity to adapt is rich, He has freinds of many walks of life and many of his friends go to regular school and we are currently in the process of networking with other home schooled kids, so in my area its not a concern, How does he feel being the'other' He knows he's getting the best he attended school for 2 years and he is grateful and looked up to by his friends, he doesn't attend regular school becasue he is what you call gifted and home schooling is the best in education In my area its a movement a entity its own, maybe in some hick town I'd have to create social oppourtunity but here we have to try and chill once in a while...he's in sports, he is learning classical piano and electric guitar and will attend a fine arts academy over the summer....

I applaud you for homeschooling. It takes a lot of time and patience. And he doesn't have to deal with Societal Constructs.

...and...

...now we know why you are always on the computer.

I was homeschooled for a while myself.

Anyhow.....

Joc i agree with you and it sounds to me like you are a awesome parent,

I'm fortunate to be able to home school, its been a great gig for me too...yes that is why I have alot of computer time.......

Really? how old and why?????How long?????

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT...it's a whole different ball game once you become a parent

But I would have sid the 3 most important things to give a child are...

1. Lots of love

2. Lots of encouragment (school work ect ect)

3. Lots of understanding.(listening)..show the child you care and understand them


ZERO.....I'd dare say if Sheri & I ect all where FOR spanking/beating our kids you would most likely come in and go against us and say the complete opposite, and how spanking is bad reeeaalllll bad LOL

The verbal abuse was like torture. We were often told we were going to hell and called every name you could ever imagine. At 10 years old I heard the word slu@ for the first time. My stepmother called me one. She said my shorts were too short because they were above the knee. Her own mother had sent her to catholic school where the nuns verbally abused the students and hit them with rulers as well. So in I believe this was a learned behavior. her mother was also a religious nut case and I think it caused mental illness for her.

We were called, "stupid" everyday. My brother and sister still can't talk about it but underneath you see the lasting scars. Its like this thing that never has closure because you just don't understand. My grandmother was not much different. her nickname for me as a child was, "Jezebel." Her verbal was very much religiously motivated. I had to hear about God's punishment for me all the time. She would bring up stories from the bible when God burned people and so on and so forth, implying that I might also face the same punishment. For some reason we took the brunt more than any of the other grandchildren and we all believe it was because my mother was Jewish and my grandparents made no bones about the fact that they didn't want my father to marry a Jew.

The affects of verbal abuse on a child are long lasting. I forgave them a long time ago but I have to respect the fact that my brother and sister still suffer deeply to the point they can't talk about it. I think when your a child these particular things stick out in your mind because your mind is so fragile at that point. If someone invades the mind with constant religion and abuse the child's mind tries to adapt. the affects can be everything from emotional removal to going on to abuse. Having children of my own was an eye opening experience. When I looked at them for the first time I was in love with them. I realized that I too was precious as a child and did not deserve what happened. Having my own children made me come to terms with my own abuse and when I looked at them smile or play I just felt overwhelmed with a love I had never known. A pure unconditional spiritually love. I can't imagine ever inflicted damage on their minds.

I see some people are so in love with their children when their born and than they drift away from them but I think they are just as precious as babies as when they grow up. They might get into more trouble but as for myself I still am in love with my children and I remind them everyday that they are the loves of my life, that their idea of God loves them.
I remind them that they have purpose in this world and in my life. I cannot imagine inflicted my own beliefs on them or religion for that fact and the horrible thoughts of punishment that come with that. I think its time for people to stop recycling their children into this belief of punishment and torture by God and the abuse that sometimes comes as a price tag with it.
Just my thoughts

IF
That was a beautiful post. From a religious aspect of abuse as a child I felt that the idea religion inflicted upon my elders caused them to abuse in part. In the case of my grandmother, she believed that children reach a point where they seperate from God, innocence, and God's love therefore. She saw children as the ultimate sneaky sinners who needed strict punishment to grow up in God.

Why?? = For the opposite reason from your lil one...How Long?? = Not long enough (j/k)

I've read most of these posts and I think we all agree that showing your kids love over everything else is most important. But in regards to religion playing a role in bad parenting, I'd say that bad parenting comes from all different walks of life, religious and non-religious. I do think though that bad 'habits' are learned from previous generations and its up to the present parents to change that pattern so their child may benefit. I don't think religion is the cause of bad parenting though.

((HUG)) Know that you are stronger and wiser for surviving your experiences.

Edit/TMI!

Why do you think religion is not the cause of bad parenting?

Arty we have been founded on religious ideas and religiously the bible advocates 'Spare the rod spoil the child', and many others that Zan the berri man posted. dude reigion is the brain child behind many a flawed idea..including abusing children....'god' is a pretty big focal point for alot of people and the bible is said to be the word of 'god' it is followed literally, why wouldn't it be?????one who is religous rarely questions gods authority arty, that is where the NB's come in i hope this helps

What I meant is I don't think religion is the sole proprietor of bad parenting. Bad parents don't have to be religious, they can think for themselves.

Sheri the worst parents I've ever seen were drunks that never went to church or followed any religion, so I can make a counter argument.

Arty religous ideas permeate society, even people who don't go to church or beleive in 'god' have adopted the reward punishment system create by religion, you don't have a argument arty...

That's a broad assumption Sheri, could you specify a little more?

\

what part arty, i meant to say you don't have an argumnet....

I meant about the reward punishment mentality. If anything religion adopted it from man himself. I used an analogy earlier on this topic about a lioness snapping at her cubs because she was telling them to calm down and let mom rest. We as humans have done this like the animals(because we are) since the beginning of our existence. Religious scriptures adopted that and took it to extremes no doubt, but to say religion is the cause of bad parenting overall is to deny our natural and sometimes brutal instincts. Sometimes certain behaviors can be taken to extremes but that's due to that individuals lack of self control.

Arty you have adopted the religious construct too as of course defined by man that we are brutal and naturally prone to evilness correct????Arty man decided that god had preferences, Imagine if he would of created a 'god' that didn't, nevertheless no matter how you look at it man, religon came up with the reward pnishment system for raising children i'm saying its in error based on flawed information by men who weren't very aware....

I never mentioned the word evil. It doesn't take religion for someone to beat the daylights out of their kid, it doesn't take religion to be a serial killer,etc. All it takes is a cold-hearted SOB.

Arty why do we have cold hearted S.O.B.'s It takes ideas that support the behavior ..where do they originate ???????

Sheri, what came first people or religion?

both

So religion is nature then.