Geez what a message that sends allowing anyone hit your child, I would read up on the effects of that if i was you....Violence begets viiolence..Wall flower you may want to keep these practices to yourself .........

And yet, despite your superior knowledge, private schools in almost all states are allowed to spank--imagine that!

Catholic with parental permission Wallflower.......You sir are in ignorance are you kidding me if a school hit the child even time out methods are with parental permission the school in kindergarten talks to the parents at that time you agree or disagree it is not allowed...you are a funny one......

I didn't say they could do it without permission--although the Supreme Court did say in Ingraham v. Wright that doing so was not an Eighth Amendment violation.

Maybe I should elaborate on what I ment. As of now, they really don't have anything to do with who I become. I am a person who rather ignore other people's opinions and make my own choice. Maybe they did mold me when I was younger into who I am now, but I can't really say for sure because I was always like I am now. I'm hard headed, lol. I use to be shy, but now I'm a "Cocky" person from time to time. I mold myself from here on out.

Read up on the effects? Why would I need to do that? I experienced being spanked and the only effect it had on me was that became a better person and who I am right now. I wouldn't want it any other way.

How about you just tell me the effects it has.

Wall flower i repeat myself if CPS has cause to come into your life you will have the burden of proof I have know people who have had kids in foster care for a year ( with the law being on your side) that is a hoot the law is on the side of the child now down the road you may win, and the courts do want that, but the road will be long, I just got off the phone with my friednd her 11 year old son ran away , he didn't like that mom wanted him to have better grades he booked , the police called her at 2.30 in the morning they found him she is going to counseling parenting classes and showing them that she is a good mother, i actually know her i don't agree with everything (yelling ) but a bad mother she isn't so use care....



Zero i posted many of the effects of abusive parenting. ones experince plays a part in logic but its not all of it what would you have your parenting style to compare too, you were told it was for your good you were told you required such harsh methods in all logic Zero you have nothing to compare too, its the same as arguing the validity of the bible from the bible you understand????lol

"Society" in this context refers to those who actively participate in the school district policy and lawmaking processes.

In PA, the law reads essentially as thus: if you lightly spank your child, open-handed on her/his clothed rear end, and without causing any redness or bruising to get her/his attention, then it is not an actionable offense. No school in PA allows its teachers (school employee) to physically discipline any student under any circumstance.

- Michael

Same here, you can actually call CPS on the school these days and they will come and investigate....it seems wall flower just doesn't want the laws to be anyting except what he wants them to be....

Wallflower you need to get with the program this is reality not how you wish things were....
there is good reason to have protection available for children hello........

I wasn't told it was for my own good, I knew it was. And I also know that now and that will not change. If spanking did me no harm, and it made me who I am now, why in the world would I agree with YOUR view on spanking? I know first hand what happens when a kid is spanked; They listen!

I don't need you, or any "statistics" to tell me any different. I experienced it first hand.

When I was spanked I didn't listen..I rebelled more...but I envied those that had parents that actually talked more to their kids instead of spanking...so I rebelled all the more for each time I was spanked

What people tend to forget is...that not all kids are the same....each one is different...but people like to think that all kids think and react a like...this is so untrue....sometimes a kid can take a reaction to hitting/spanking like begin to behave...but just for a while then head off and misbehave all over again...mind span of a goldfish, LOL Some will rebel against it and play up all the more out of anger and hate.....some will think its funny and ignore it and play up thinking --"well he/she didn't spank me that hard so its like a slap on the wrist ner ner no bigie is it?" I could go on...so I think trying out other methods might work wonders...I am a parent and I WILL try out different methods...I don't know everythuing about being a parent and I wont be like some I could mention and pretend to know....I will learn every day

Different strokes for different folks.

That's why I went back in and made a another few points to my previous post

We're in agreement then.

Suppose so.......but it's the only thing!

We weren't talking about school CP when you mentioned "society." To the extent that anyone can reasonably said to stand in for society, it is the government. You'll notice that I am the one citing legal standards, not Sheri.



No public school may use CP as of last year. Private schools are another story. As for the rest of it, as it pertains to parental CP there is no PA state law saying (1) only a hand may be used (2) the rear end must be clothed (3) any bruise however slight is abuse. The law simply states:

Parents can use reasonable supervision and control when raising their children.23 Sec. 6302.[Civil] Parent/guardian/person responsible for general care and supervision/ person acting at request of the above may use force for the purpose of safeguarding or promoting welfare of minor including the prevention or punishment of his misconduct, if the force is not designed to cause or known to create a substantial risk of causing death, serious bodily injury, disfigurement, extreme pain, mental distress, or gross degradation. 18 Sec. 509.[Criminal]

I'm sorry you've never heard of Ingraham v. Wright, but I can't say I'm surprised. There is, and should be, protection for children from things that are actually abusive. Neither the law nor society defines spanking as abusive, as I've demonstrated repeatedly. I'm not with your "program", whatever that may mean, and I have no wish to be.

Walflower Sheris methods work for her...and I intend to do the same with my kid too...I was spanked and I rebelled against it and held nothing but anger and hate...each kid wilol react differently towards it...If you want to keep hitting/spanking your kids..so be it but dont be surprised if one of them winds up hating you in the long run...who's to say that wont happen?

Your kids could also hate you if you never spanked them once. Sheri thinks wallflowers' methods are abusive and she will personally attack him because she disagrees. Wallflower could make the same assumption of sheri and say "I feel sorry for Sheri's kids because shes a perfectionist or a push over." That wouldn't accomplish much though, except more bickering.

Who's to say that it will? I got my bare butt paddled on a regular basis and I revered my mother and still do. Just goes to show that every kid is different, every parent is different and every situation is different. I'm glad Sheri's methods work for her, but surely you've noticed I'm not the one telling Sheri how to parent?

Arty i suppose it is my truth to raise children in a manner that is loving and teach in a way that gives tools to ensure the most joyous and exciting journey they call life, its a choice to use corporal punishment on a child its not forced on you i choose to go the extra mile and parent in awareness and love and so far it works.I also choose to find my own truth not ape the ways of those that just follow others ...If the day ever comes when you have the gift of a child maybe you'll do the same maybe you won't.....


Wallflower you choose the way you parent and you don't seem in the slighest concerned with your childrens welfare and there isn't t anything i can tell you" you already know" its your path and you gotta walk it not Me so happy trails.....

Arty that is absurd, the whole point of organic (natural) parenting is to create a loving and mutually respectful relationship tha tis safe and danger free, I wonder if I started a thread on should you beat your wife, is she less than how many would be in favor of it ????? hmmmm

If you need one to spell out to you that spanking is abuse you are in trouble dude..sheesh....
you choose how you parent.

Abuse is hitting hard enough to cause serious damage. IE: Bruses, whelps, etc...
If you think spanking is abuse, you need to give me some of what you're smoking.

Spankings are safe and danger free if you're administering them properly.

Shadow

Please think about what you just said. For one thing if you think this is the defintion of abuse than even in your terms of it spanking is considered abuse as in most cases it does leaves marks that are visible on the skin.

I think the definition you gave is skewed. Abuse comes in many forms for one thing. You also cannot simply say because there wasn't a mark it isn't abuse. Think about it....
If you laid a hand on another adult what do you think would happen? Do you not think children are worthy of the same thing?

Essentially what you are implying, maybe not intentionally, is that my parents were abusive and didn't have mine or my brothers' best interests in mind. First, I find that offensive, and second, you're just plain wrong. I've mentioned several times now that I have a wonderful relationship with my parents and family, no animosity whatsoever, just love and respect. Friends of ours marvel at our family's closeness and comment how they didn't have that growing up. My 2 brothers are parents and are doing a great job too.
Sheri, you already have your mind made up on this issue. I'm happy that you have found a way to raise your kids. But don't disrespect others especially when they're telling you their parents are great and loving...and they happened to spank them on occassion.

I've been on the receiving end of what can be construed as physically abusive punishment, through the agency of a paddle, rather than an open hand spank, through the corporal punishment policy of a Christian school.

However my parents spanked me all of 2 times that I can ever remember and both times they were light stingy like contact spanks, maybe 2 swats per time. Even as a kid I knew my mom was extremely nervous about the connect for fear of hurting me, which is why it didn't because she pulled her smack right before contact, so it tickled more than anything. But I got the message the first time, each time so it never became habit.

As for the philosophy that spanking is always abuse, well then for thousands of years we can say a large population of the human family has suffered abuse. And in many cases that is very well true. I've witnessed physically abusive parents assault their child in public. And thank the powers at the time, my father or myself as those witnesses, stopped it in it's tracks at least for the moment!

I do not agree with the adage it is never ok to spank a child. If some don't do that that's their choice in raising their own. However once that platform of conduct in one's personal is expressed and explained, that's it! Anyone that takes it to a personal activism in a thread to become a proponent for their style of parenting after that, is speaking in font and shall have no affect on what a qualified parent reader has to do with their own child.

However to hurl insults at parents for disciplining the child that becomes a decent human being, through the agency of spanking, is verbal abuse. And as it can be said the spirit of one that can abuse another in one aspect of human interaction (communications) is possessed of an abusive personality that is then liable to abuse in every aspect of human interaction, regardless of what they say to the contrary because they have already proven it by speaking contemptuously and assaultingly!


So, just my two bits of observing quite a bit of living, it's easy to live in peace on a forum because it's simply words on a screen that can easily be dismissed or ignored, if one chooses not to suffer the abuse. However the abuse that exists in someone verbally assaulting and holding contempt for someone else for living their personal life in a way the offender does not approve, especially when they reiterate that contempt post after post, speaks volumes in itself. Especially when an offender resorts to verbal assaults so as to reiterate their personal opinion that it is never ok to assault! (spank a child) For that then makes for empty words on a screen, that can easily be dismissed or....

Spanking
spank·ing ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spngkng)
adj.
Informal. Exceptional of its kind; remarkable.
Swift and vigorous: a spanking pace.
Brisk and fresh: a spanking breeze.
adv.
Used as an intensive: a spanking clean shirt.
n.
A number of slaps on the buttocks delivered in rapid succession, as for punishment.



Abuse
a·buse ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-byz)
tr.v. a·bused, a·bus·ing, a·bus·es
To use wrongly or improperly; misuse: abuse alcohol; abuse a privilege.
To hurt or injure by maltreatment; ill-use.
To force sexual activity on; rape or molest.
To assail with contemptuous, coarse, or insulting words; revile.
Obsolete. To deceive or trick.

n. (-bys)
Improper use or handling; misuse: abuse of authority; drug abuse.
Physical maltreatment: spousal abuse.
Sexual abuse.
An unjust or wrongful practice: a government that commits abuses against its citizens.
Insulting or coarse language: verbal abuse.

Who you were yesterday dictates who you are today and is the basis of who you will become tomorrow.

"Marks" are not the same thing as "bruises and whelps" (I think the word is welts, though.) A red butt is not a bruise.



Another adult, by the nature of the situation, is not the same as your kid. So the answer is "hell no."

Wallflower
A red butt is a mark. Physical contact with another being to inflict intentional pain is wrong and will suffer a karmic reaction just as it would with an adult. This is my opinion, I willnot change this opinion however I will not judge you either. But I do wish that more parents would seek ways other than spanking. There are effective ways.

I do not agree, a child and an adult do differ but they are both human beings that deserve the same amount of respect as to bodies. Perhaps you and I are very different in how we view children. I look at my own and I see spirits that are quite possibly older or "more advanced" than I. I treat them how I would want to be treated.

I don't know about the karma end of it, but since we were talking about this in a legal context, I am telling you that the law does not define a red butt as a mark for purposes of prosecuting physical abuse. In Wyoming, a law was passed in 2003 specifically excluding "minor bruising" from "reasonable corporal punishment" from the state's child abuse law, and other states have moved in that direction as well.



That some kids can be successfully raised without spankings is not denied. However, even if that were true of 99% of kids, that would be no help to the other 1%.



I'm glad my mom spanked me growing up, so I treat mine as I would want to be treated, as well.

Wallflower interseting 1% that need to be beaten you have hit hard itf you leave a red mark (the whole idea of thinking it out hitting bare skinned and these are children creeps me out) You seem rather monstourous to me and I'm an adult imagine from the child...


Star as always your gentle spirit is a great contribution i agree with you children deserve to be treated with respect, we are telling these little guys through our behavior what it looks like to be a adult, they will most definitley emulate your eery move even Zero...
No child requires beating as a means of parenting that is justification for a CHOICE you have made Wall.....

So you think a bare butt is shameful and creepy--but I'm sure you didn't absorb that perspective from religion, now did you? Impossible!

You have lost me i'm not religious at all..........

Wallflower

Every action causes reaction. This does not only apply to spanking but everything in the natural world.

As to the law. I do remain in such but it does not bind me in what is right and wrong. If I look deep enough into myself I know what is truly right and wrong and I do not need the law to tell me such. I have to be honest I do not have alot of faith in law as regarding children. I was placed back in an abusive home only to be nearly killed by strangulation.
Another example of my lack of faith would be; A mother from my children's school recently turned to me for help. She was divorced like myself and her ex-husband was giving the 5 year old boy alcohol knowing full well he had a medical condition. She wound up taking him to the emergency room. I in turn called child services and was told that it is not against the law to for a parent to give a minor alcohol....is this law right just because a judge decided it? It interfered in the child's well being and there was no loop hole for any recourse on the mother's part. The judge in that case also refused to provoke supervised visitaion and he didn't seem to care much at that. I know him personally and I can verify what a heartless person he is. So now you ask me if I should care that a court decided it was not abuse? I don't really. I have respect for verdicts but they have no hindering on my defintion of a spanking.

Your mother spanked you. Whatever the outcome, I don't agree that you can say this is how you wanted to be treated. I think you might relate an outcome with what she did, action and reaction but can you really honestly say when looking into your heart that this was how you wanted to be treated? My grandmother often told me she spanked me out of love. Just my thoughts but the action of love does not intentionally inflict pain in any realm. We might each be selfless and suffer out of love but inflicting suffering is not out of love. Just my thoughts and perspective.

Walflower if you are hitting your kids dont be surprised if they wind up hating you in the long run

My dad began spanking and depending on his mood it turned to beating....my brother and I never have forgiven him and till this day my dad regrets what he did...we still cant bring ourselves to forgive regardless...he has 3 grandchildren now and hasnt layed a hand on either of them.....he has tried other methods that seem to work better than hitting/spanking and his grandchildren love and respect him more than we ever did........do what you like but you will be the only one who is sorry...........think of this how would you like to stand and watch someone else hit your kids and hurt them for misbehaving???? you are double prolly tripple their sized for crying out loud...all I am saying it will be on your head in the end and you wont be able to turn back the clock...once you have mellowed out a lil more it will be too late mark my words!!

Another thing ALL parents should think about...anyone of your lil kids could die from a serious accident or something...and there you will be wishing you had never hurt them in any way...I hope that never happens..you are lucky to have your kids but some day one could be gone forever and thats when you are lost without them and wish you had of treated them better.

How do you know my kid would hate me for not hitting her??? what kind of statment is that??? If my kid misbehaves I will have other ways of dealing with her ....every kid is different....only time will tell And no Sheri is not a push over you DONT know her

Yes. Without hesitation, yes. Which is not to say that when the moment came to actually be spanked, I wouldn't have avoided the pain if I could've; that's a completely different thing. But if any of my friends said a word against my mother or her punishments, I set them straight immediately. I knew what the punishments were there for.

Spanking (1) (noun)
Beating on the buttocks
a beating with the flat of
The hand on somebody’s buttocks, given as punishment

Taken from the dictionary...check it if you like feel free

Wallflower no kid wants to be hit and most kids will except the explanation of the parent as to why this is happening, its insane behavior , I'm sorry you were hit, most paretns never try any other manner of parenting they just argue it won't work tha tis ignorance talking IMO....My son who is 8 has his best friend who is spanked and his folks call him stupid etc, my son told me today mom My friend has alot of problems becasue his parents treat him mean he always wants to kill himself ( this kid is 8 too)...he asked me to talk with his parents...We love this child so don't think that hitting and verbal assualt isn't affecting your child...My son also told me kids act different away from their parents he said his friend does alot of wrong things.....i will speak with the parents in a non intrusive way I actually like his parents as people they are just young and beleive that fear parenting is the only parenting.....

Not getting into this subject.

Child Abuse Detection and Prevention

Spanking

Spanking: Abuse or Parental Right?

stopspanking.com

corpun.com

5 results from Google search: abuse+spanking

**Backs out real slowly**

Thankyou Zan, very good info.... I am gonna purcahse the book, I can tell you based on my years of experince and understandings these are very accurate and a good source of information as always you are the best

A person can mold themselves. Kids can teach themselves things, not everything learned is from others. How do you think the first men/women to exist learned anything?

Are you telling me that kids do not have the ability to learn things on their own? Also, many times there are 2 brothers/sisters, around the same age, raised the same way and one will grow up totally different from the other. Why is this? WE ourselves have more to do with who we become than our parents do in my opinion.

**Sorry the number you have reached is not in service at this time**


Your welcome

Zero what are you molding yourself based on????? so lets see if we got this you were raised with corporal punishment , according to you your words this has contributed greatly to the fine person that you are correct???And you would of chose to be hit if you had the choice correct???This is how effective it was...Yet you are the same person who says he is selfish, would resort to lying and stealing if he had too. You are also the same person who argued the longest and loudest over your right to discriminate remeber... you also have argued the loudest and longest over the many benefits of hitting children. So i guess this is an example of how you have molded yourself eh Zero?????

still loves ya eevn though you are invisible lol ( private joke between the berri's)

Everything in a childs younger age is learned from a parent (except in neglect cases).
As the child grows older it starts learning from other children.
If a person is limited to just learning from them self Zero....where does the knowledge to be learned come from?

Zero (No pun intended here) knowledge into zero knowledge can only result in....zero knowledge.

There has to be an outside source of that knowledge.


From mommy primate and daddy primate.....where else?

Well said Zan, often kids that have parents that both work are often raised by other peers with no parents around alot of the most troubled kids come from this, with very few coping tools to navigate life, children need adults around.......In my neighborhood now i see alot of kids tha thave this situation , i have opened my home to these kids , we actually rescued a boy that was lighting fires bullying etc and gave him a place to come to everyday he has turned out to be one of the finest young adults you would want to know, He's all grown up now in college and stops by to see his adoptive mom sheri alot.....I didn't do anyhting extraordinary but give him a family to come too.....Truthfully as a parent who stays home i feel its my responsibility to help other parents however I can i would want that if i had to work so i give out what i would want.....I don't judge I just help out.... WE can all do litttle things you never know how much good its doing..kids are our future......