Go easy on me, this is my first topic. Please? Oh well...

I'm about to start a new thesis based on the choices we make in our lives due to religion. It came about when a friend and I started talking about the practice of circumcision and how it differs between countries. Naturally the conversation fell towards the origins of circumcision and how it was originally used to identify the Jews as the 'true race of God'. From what I recall (and if anyone can correct me, it woud be appreciated), Jewish law states that a male child has to be circumcised before he is eight days old.

There was a time however when the Jews would not wish to be recognised, during Hitler's reign and his attempted genocide. So here presents an interesting question: As the parent of a child who was born during Hitler's destruction, do you choose not to circumcise your child to protect him from being identified as a Jew or do you uphold your religon and beliefs and risk his life? In other words, would you defy God to save your child?

Of course, this is but an example of a parent being faced with a choice between love for their family and religion. The question and choice lies in many circumstances. It is an interesting thought, because love for God and love for your child are both such powerful examples of love.

I would choose to save my child and hope God understood. If he didn't, I would go to hell without complaint because I believe it would be worth it.

Good topic!
these debates are always very difficult, and never black and white, though before anyone sides, it must be said that to deny the religious rite, one may forever damn their child. a parent has to weigh which is more important, a lifetime of suffering which is guaranteed though leads to a 'heaven' or release in the future, or a life of peace, but an eternity of damnation afterwards...difficult to choose. i'd say i'd pick the life of peace, then appeal to my god to damn me in my childs stead. i know it's an odd solution, but it could work...

I would have saved my child and not had him circumcised. I would have decided, as a Jew during the Holocaust, that if god didn't hear the thousands of prayers for salvation of Hitlers victims before my babies birth, then he's obviously not paying attention enough to damn me for pro-actively saving one life by disobeying mans interpretation of his law when he, the law maker, failed to harken to the entreaty of thousands of victims faithful to the law.

Besides that, circumcision for the purpose of standing out from the crowd, makes it easier to identify those that are particularly targeted in the crowd. (Remember the yellow stars that were ordered "by law" to be sewn onto the clothing of German Jews, in that time period? One wonders if non-compliance to that man made law did make a difference for the population of survivors not otherwise so easily identified (Aside from dropping trousers of course), or rather did everyone ordered to comply, do so!?

Which then makes one wonder about the contemporary politic that exists in Europe. Such as those laws forbidding the wearing of religious paraphernalia (in French territories). Or the legislation that forbids someone not believing in the Holocaust. (Thought police?) And if these contemporary civil violations (oxymoron terminology anyone? ) are permitted to exist without re-dress from that population under that jurisdiction, that should remember the history certain of these laws are intended to honor, do they at least realize their compliance today makes for the complacent environment that allowed a Hitler to flourish in the first place.

Yes, that's what I believe I would do, Glacies. I would ask God not to punish my child for my sins, as they were innocent at the time and to take me instead.

Another interesting aspect of the argument though, the possibility of damning the child.

What a coincidence Ebony...I was just thinking about making a thread pretty much like this one...Great idea for a thread

I remember someone posting somehting about God who was testing a mans loyalty and told him to kill his child..in others word make a choice...I thought that was horrible and if God where to ask me to do the same thing I would choose my child ANY DAY..my child will always come before any God or religion..nothing comes between us...if God is all loving he would understand that

Religion was made to serve man, man was not made to serve religion.

^^^How so, can you elaborate?

~ADHD~

Circumscion was also practiced by other desert people that had poor access to water. A fungus infection can grow under the foreskin that is fatal, without modern medical intervention, if there is not daily cleansing that includes water.

It was a health measure that became a ritual, much as not eating pork was banned and then became a religious taboo because in ancient times there was no real way to be sure it had been cooked long enough at a high enough temperature to eliminate parasites that are common to pigs.

In the bible is a story where Jesus was taken to task because he and his disciples broke the religious ban of working on the Sabbath by gathering food from a field on that day. Jesus made it clear in this story that the Sabbath was made to serve man as a day of rest to keep people from being forced to work seven days a week, but that it was not made to for religion force man to do nothing on that day.

"The Sabbath (religion) was made for man, man was not made for the Sabbaoth (religion)."

I see your point, nice explanation

~ADHD~

Interesting thread.

Nope... that would be not trusting God ?
... besides circumsion helps avoying other health problems.

Hitler knew who as a Jew or not, he didnt have to inspect their circumsions.
He also killed alot of Polish and Gipsies. He just wanted top get ridd of all races who were not his ideal "pure white, blue eye and blond hair" human-gods.

"religion versus family" it's more like religion opposses everything, even its self

Well, it was hard to think of a title.

It's not really supposed to be about circumcision, that was just the example that led to the question of choosing between religion and family. Makes it easier to answer if you have a scenario to go by.

I would do the only reasonable thing..and it has nothing to do with religion..

And there is no hell by the way.

And why God would care about you and your child, its like " I gave you the life, do whatever you like with it, dont bother me!".

Or you think he made living beings to worship him? Why would he?

Yes, I do belive in God, but religion is a scam and God would say the same.

You mean there is no hell, according to you and your beliefs.

And no, I don't believe he made humans to worship him. It was a dissection of the human love for God, not the other way around. It wasn't about what God wanted, it was about what choice you'd make based on a structured belief in God. Obviously if you have no strict structure to your religion, it doesn't really apply because you'd choose the child without question.

Also, I believe God would want us to live to the best of our ability not just any old way. I believe he does care about our lives.

I'm not going to give full details on my religious beliefs, suffice to say I do belong to an organised religion but due to work, don't adhere to it strictly.

I wouldn't circumcise my child.
The love for your family is so much bigger then the love for god. I just can 't believe you can love something more you will never see/feel/smell or touch.

You have the whole problem from the beginning there in a nutshell.

How do you grt primitive people to worship and honor ethics and moral principles instead of people, idols, and material things that they can see, which is much easier for them to do.