I'm agnostic and a good friend of mine is Christian. I mean hard core Christian! He's studying at a very prestigious school working on a Master's degree in theology.

The other day, we were having one of our usual religious discussions. You know, he tells me I'm going to Hell and I tell him that his mind has been warped by fear tactics and childhood indoctrination (all jest, of course). Then he said something that blew my mind. My well-educated and normally very rational friend (except when it comes to religion IMO) actually believes that the Bible is infallible. He claims that it contains no contradictions whatsoever.

Now, I have no intention of trying to shake my friend's faith or anything like that because I believe in respecting other people's beliefs.* However, I would like to delve deeper into this theory of his, so I'm asking for your help. Please post your favorite Biblical contradictions here. Or, if you agree with my friend, defend/explain the contradictions.

Thanks!

*More detail on this respectful discussion between my friend and me can be found here: Post #14. Please don't lecture me on how I am being a bad friend unless you have read that post.

Ohhhh Zandore is just gonna love this thread

I'm not a bit surprised at your friends tenaciousness. After all, not only are they a believer, but they have also chosen to commit vast sums of money to becoming a student of the faith, for all that entails in committing to retain what others tell them that serves to re-affirm the veracity of that choice to attend as a student of the faith.

And as such, that student is told any in contention of the faith are an enemy of the faith and are damned and as such are to be guarded against because they seek company in corrupting the devout unto that damnation/way of thinking.

This is a means of insulating the faith to remain strong, against the adversary of fact/truth.

One simple test to find out if your friend is amicable to daring to think beyond the book, which will tell you if anything else after this test has a chance of getting through, is to set the stage of logical foundation so that your friend accepts that foundation before pursing the discussion of faith.

This question is certain to gain the attention of any believer that wants to hear you out when you try to debate the issues of the faith. Mainly because most believers believe agnostics (and any other NB), engage in discussion with believers because their soul knows it needs salvation and is strong enough to reach for it but still is weak in actually facing that truth without a fight. Consequently most believers are told it is their sacred duty to give every NB the opportunity to accept the road to salvation, by entertaining them in conversation that just might save their soul.

So, in the spirit of that, you might consider this;

Ask your friend if the bible tells us that mankind is a sinful creature in need of salvation. (They are, because the garden of eden insured they would forever be born into sin. Hence the need for salvation when they are accountable for their sins.)

After your friend says yes, ask if the bible is inspired by god.

Yes.

And the bible inspired by god was written by men? Yes.

Then how can that which is the infallible words of god, be infallibly translated through the sinfully corrupted consciousness of the scribes of man, since the words that god inspires are intended to save those who choose to believe the law of god after it is written.



Then if you really want to hit the issue re-affirm with them what "Infallible" means. Then ask how old the King James Bible is. I.E. When it was published. (English translation published 1611) . Then ask if the KJB is the infallible word of god,how it is that that infallible word is a composite of the older Jewish faith, from the beginning in the Old Testament.

Many believers when asked something like this will say that Christians follow the New Testament. As if discounting the impact of the Old Testament, on such an inquiry that they simply can not respond to otherwise.

However, if this were true then Christians that only subscribe to the New Testament, are not abiding as Christians to the words in the NT, when they deny the efficacy of the OT which foretold of the coming of the Messiah(Jesus). Therefore if they claim they do not abide in any way with the Old Testament they are then refuting their own New Testament which speaks of Jesus fulfilling the prophecies of the Old Testament). (*Not to mention refuting the 10 commandments which are the moral laws of the Christian faith!)


I wish you luck if you pursue this line of questions to your friend. However, realize that in their eyes you are damned unless you see things their way. (I.E. accepting Jesus as your savior.). Anyone attending school to reiterate that faith so committedly, has already made their choice of what's true, despite what is fact. So if you do this with the intent of changing their mind, you are wasting your time. If your doing this to make them stop harassing you about needing salvation, your wasting your time trying to communicate that logically to someone that cleaves to faith (any faith) which by it's very nature is illogical.

Then you have to ask yourself the most important question when you consider your motive for this post. (I.E. countering your friend intent on having you see things their way.) Do true friends disrespect one another's faith? (Agnosticism is just as much a faith as any religious tenet).

To consider a man made object as infallible is to consider a man made object as perfect and divine, a miraculous manifestation of a god within a man made object.
This belief is called idol worship and is forbidden in Judaism and in Christianity.

If he really wants to believe in the Bible let him.....


Listed below are the contents of the all 192 issues of Dennis McKinsey's Biblical Errancy. Click on what interests you. At the bottom of each link there will be a place to click to return to this menu, or press the back button of your browser. The issues raised in Biblical Errancy represent a challenge to Bible inerrantists, and religion in general.

Bible Errancy

There are more web sites if you look for them.

This could get interesting.

Bela there are a growing number of people that consider all religions (including Christianity) to be a man made construct.

Its man’s interpretation of scripture that is defiantly fallible. Especially when he bends the intent to suit his own aspirations and goals.

Well Zan they do have to be a part of it, just like the scientist becomes a part of the experiment he observes, any contact at any level effects change.
An interaction takes in variables from both sides.
Interaction between a being of spirit or energy based and a being in the flesh would be the same way.

what do you mean

Tell your friend his wonderful faith is infallible- but his religion aint.

Well put.

which is the foundation of religion only, Fear is used as the bender....

If Christianity is "infallible" as you claim it to be......then why is it on the decline

In response to these two comments:

and


As I said before, I have no interest in changing my friend's faith. His faith, like the beliefs of so many others, is a powerful and positive influence on his life. It guides him and gives him strength. I don't want to take that away! I merely want to better understand why he believes as he does. Besides, he thinks that probing questions and debate of his faith help him to be closer to God by attaining a deeper spiritual understanding. Yes, he would like to convert me, but he also gains something for himself from our discussions. And I gain a greater understanding of my friend and of others who believe as he does.

I would also like to add that I have plenty of other Christian friends with whom I do not engage in this sort of debate. With this guy, though, it is acceptable and we both enjoy our conversations. His faith is strong enough to handle my challenges. Plus, he views it as a kind of practice for when he becomes a pastor and has to field tough questions from his members of his congregation.

I'm glad this thread is starting to take off. Thanks, all, for your responses. Lets keep it going.

Zandore, great site - a real wealth of documented information. Thanks! I'm just now getting into it, but have already found an issue that I have tried repeatedly to get a suitable answer for. It deals with an often ignored part of the bible:

"Is The Bible Infallible?"

Ask 10 people, and you will get 10 different answers depending on how much faith they have.

To some, the book is literally the word of their god. Unsullied by human intervention. "If god wanted it writ that way, then by gum, its WRIT!"

Others think that it may have been divinely inspired, but sections of it perverted to human ends.

Some believe that it, like other holy witings from other cultures, contains a guideline for how to live peacefully, and productive lives.

And yet still others think that the book is merely a collections of mythological writings, borrowed from other older religions.

If your friend wants to believe the book word for word, then, as his friend, you have to accept him and his beliefs. What harm does it bring to you?


good journey

Great post, and I agree.

have you ever heard of the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy?

I agree as well. I guess I get zealous with those who claim to have believed in Jesus but fell away. I find it odd how some can teach me the Bible is wrong when they didn't even follow it at first. If you tell me I'm wrong, I will tell you I'm right and you are wrong. It can't just go one way, it goes both ways as well. God bless

Indeed I have.

As I have already stated, I do respect my friend and his beliefs. If you have questions about that, then please go back and read post #14 in this thread.

I would answer it thus: The original words are the infallible word of God. There are a few MINOR contentious points , usually associated with translation from the original language and other such clerical errors. On the whole though, the Bible is remarkable well-preserved as far as discrepencies go.

Your point on corrupt man putting God's perfect word on paper, I would counter that by saying if God created us, and wanted to communicate, surely he would have had a failsafe, ensuring his ability to communicate effectively with us.

And for the KJV - I WOULD NOT deny the Old Testament! I don't know any Christian who would. What I would do is make mention of the many wrongs translated in the KJV, point them to a more reliable translation, and say that the scriptures in the original language are still there for us to use and cross-reference if you so need/choose.

But that's just me.....

Regards, PA

non-Christian apologetics. I had a quick look through that site - one word leaps to mind - specious!

But that's just my opinion

Regards, PA

<--lol at PA's attempt of sarcasm

Was it that obvious

Yup it was LOL but funny at the same time

Just like the Bible.....but I took a long look at it a YEARS long look!

Like any book with many authors that has been written and rewritten its not infallible.

On one of the most fundamental tenets of the Bible, salvation, there are many passages that seem contradictory. Some say salvation is attained through faith. Others contend that good works will save you. Still, others seem to suggest that salvation is preordained by God himself. Aren't these contradictions one of the primary reasons why Christianity has so many denominations?

Assuming that the flaw is in human interpretation, not in the written word, why would God make his message so confusing that no one can absolutely know if he is saved?

I don't believe personally that God made ANY message....I may believe in God, but I don't believe that God made such a mess of the bible or pass on any kind of message to anyone.....I think God lets man think for themselves

Am I correct in assuming you are not Christian, then?

Indeed you are 100% correct...BM is not a christian and never will be...I dont have a relgion to follow

So your just going to believe in what this guys says?

What of it? What would you to add to what they said, besides?

Just to add an additional perspective, the Judaic--specifically, the Orthodox/Ultra-Orthodox view, which is that The Torah is an actual part of or a true representation [G-d] and not a false (fallible) graven image/idol/et cetera of [G-d]. Simply stated, many Jews see The Torah as infallible because it is inherent to the sublime nature of [G-d].

Quoting a post a few pages back: "Like any book with many authors that has been written and rewritten its not infallible."
- Could you list a few examples, please?

Thanks,

- Michael

the only passage i can think of that comes close to claiming works will save someone is the "faith without works is dead" passage in James. all that it is saying is that one's works are an indicator of one's faith. Kinda like if a smoker says they are quitting and yets does nothing to end their habit isnt really quitting.
Predestination is a nonsalvational issue for the vast majority of Christians. there are some wackos who will not hesitate to say that no one subscribing to their particular brand of Calvinism or whatnot is destined to hell. Its fun to watch five or six hyper Calvinists get in an argument with each other and condem each other to hell.

Have a look at Matthew 19:16-21. In that passage, Jesus answers a man who asks what he must do in order to attain eternal life. In his answer, Jesus does not mention faith at all. You'd think he would have said something about that! The same conversation can be found in Mark 10:17-21 and Luke 18:18-22.

Sure, there are plenty of places where the Bible states that belief in Jesus as the one and only son of God is necessary for savation. But, I haven't come across a single quote in which Jesus said that himself. He only said that we should be kind to one another and follow the commandments. Why would Jesus omit something so important from his teachings?

Other passages seem to suggest salvation through faith is predetermined by God. Take Ephesians 1:3-6 for example:

Let's look a little closer at the passage, ok.

WHen asked what he must do, Jesus replies, you know the commandments - honour your Father and Mother, do not steal.... etc. Basically he lists the LAST SIX commandments. THe physical commandments that people do. The way people relate to each other, in other words.

THis guy has done all that..... but it's not enough.

ONE THING YOU LACK, Jesus says. Go sell everything and follow me. The guy went away sad because he had great wealth. Now, as tempting as it is to use this passage to convince Christians to give away all their money, that's just not right. Jesus jumped straight to the man's problem. He Loved money more than he Loved God. For us, it might be TV, it might be alcohol, it might be drugs, it might be sports, or work, or anything else that can consume a person's life.

A Christian is someone who puts God first (ie - HAS FAITH IN GOD ABOVE ALL OTHER THINGS). THis man had Faith in his money, more than he had Faith in God.

I submit that this passage actually is about Faith. ANd without that Faith in God, like the rich man, we will walk away sad because our Faith in God is not our top priority.

Just a thought.

Regards, PA

PA It makes more sense that the powers that be are making it noble to be broke so they could justify their hoarding all the resources????

Or it makes more sense that Jesus actually said this. I mean, he didn't say give away your money to the church. He said give it away. If one were to take it literally, he could just as easily give the money to World Vision or Street Mission as he could to their particular brand of Christianity.

If it was written to get people to give money, wouldn't the rich man gladly hand over his dough?

Regards, PA

PA, I understand what you are saying about jumping to the root of the man's problem (that he had more faith in his money than in the teachings of Jesus). However, I still don't get what that has to do with the kind of faith that Christians say is necessary to enter heaven. To my knowledge, Jesus never taught anything along the lines of Romans 10:9-10 which states:



If such a statement cannot be attributed to Jesus, where did idea come from?

As Jesus was not dead or ressurected at the time he was preaching, he could not have been so specific in his message, but he always pointed to himself as the means of salvation. Look at all the 'I am' sayings. Iam the way the truth and the life no man comes to the father but by me. I am the good sheperd the good sheperd gives his life for the sheep. I feel this theology is entirely from Jesus, and is entirely consistent to his preaching. Where did the idea come from,- well we are told that starting with Moses and the prophets Jesus explained to the disciples all that the old testament had predicted of him,- he gave them a lecture on theology after his ressurection!

jesus tricked those people in believing in peace so that when Him, Satan, YHWH get there plan ready they can win the race

But he spoke to the disciples before his ascension. I still don't get it. Sorry, not trying to be argumentative.

EDIT: One other thing I just thought of... If Jesus was God and God is all-knowing, then Jesus must have known that he would be crucified. If his crucifixion was indeed to pay for the sins of the world and provide a route of salvation for mankind, wouldn't he have mentioned that in his teachings?

Jesus did know he was going to die, for the sins of the world, and he set his face toward calvary as his mission.

This is from a web site on the issue. http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVans.../2006/02-03.htm

Yes, he did know. He spoke of being "lifted up" which was an allusion to crucifixion where a person is lifted up on a cross.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:14-15).

"Then Jesus said to them, 'When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things'" (John 8:28).

"'And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.' This He said, signifying by what death He would die" (John 12:32-33).

When the Jews demanded that the Romans put Jesus to death, John points out that the death penalty selected fulfilled Jesus' own prophecy. "Then Pilate said to them, "You take Him and judge Him according to your law." Therefore the Jews said to him, "It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death," that the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled which He spoke, signifying by what death He would die" (John 18:31-32).

Several times Jesus spoke plainly about the death he would suffer, even though his statements were lost on his followers.

"From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day" (Matthew 16:21).

"Now while they were staying in Galilee, Jesus said to them, "The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up." And they were exceedingly sorrowful" (Matthew 17:22-23).

"Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again" (Matthew 20:18-19).

"And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again" (Mark 8:31).

"For He taught His disciples and said to them, "The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him. And after He is killed, He will rise the third day." But they did not understand this saying, and were afraid to ask Him" (Mark 9:31-32).

"Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death and deliver Him to the Gentiles; and they will mock Him, and scourge Him, and spit on Him, and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again" (Mark 10:33-34).

"And He strictly warned and commanded them to tell this to no one, saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day." Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me" (Luke 9:21-23).

"Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of Man will be accomplished. For He will be delivered to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. They will scourge Him and kill Him. And the third day He will rise again." But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken" (Luke 18:31-34).

OK, but that doesn't answer my question.

If Jesus knew that he would be crucified, as you so clearly demonstrated that he did, why didn't he mention that his sacrifice was to atone for the sins of mankind and that the path to salvation involved believing in him as the only son of God and accepting his sacrifice for our sins?

WELL SAID

Then maybe people would have believed him and understood Him. They wouldn't just killed their King if they knew Jesus was the Messiah. He wouldn't have been a sacrifice then. Their blindness, which was not caused by God, was used to our benefit that they would deliver Jesus up to be crucified; that our sins may be atoned for. The Pharisees were Spiritually blind and stayed blind so that we would all be saved. He even spoke from Isaiah when it spoke of His first advent while teaching in the temple. Ya see, the Pharisees and teachers of the law were wicked. They couldn't see Jesus because they didn't want Him. Like PA said, they did not put God first but put themselves first. Even if they boasted of the greatest of deeds, they were all empty for they were done for their glory, even acts of charity. They remained blind that we may see. The devil failed again at stopping the Messiah.

Indeed it does. When the blind man called out to Jesus saying, "Son of David, have mercy on me." He was recognizing Jesus as a descendant of King David. Not only that, he recognized that Jesus had the power to give him sight, for he asked for it. This implies that the blind man recognized Jesus as the Messiah, the annointed Son of God. That man was healed because of his faith in Jesus. Just by testifying, the blind man was given his sight. Just by testifying of the power of Jesus, the centurian's son was healed. Just by testifying, the thief on the cross was saved from eternal damnation. Oh yes, Jesus tells us about confessing with our mouth. When Jesus was on earth, need any man confess? No, for Jesus could see in every man's heart. But, when Jesus was gone up to heaven, there he set up his ministry, and the Holy Spirit was sent to us that we may confess and be forgiven as the servants of old did. So thus, confessing and testifying in the power of Christ and His victory over sin and death by both the cross and resurrection shows us that we have faith in Christ complete, that we trust him in all matters for he overcame them all as well.

Jesus did teach that his death would be for the atonement of sin. Others were cleary taught this at the very begining of his ministry at his baptism,-
"behold the lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world" shouted John the Baptist. Jesus always identified his death with atonement for sin. Read the very last sermon he had with his disciples. This was the last time he would speak with them and he knew it. So what was his choice of topic,-what did he feel it most important to discuss,- was it the ten commandments, was it giving to the poor, or loving your neighbour,-No. The most important thing for him to relate to the disciples was that he was going to die for their sins, and that to come into the good of his death each individual must appropriate the sacrifice himself,- "Take this all of you and eat"...the bread is no good to one unless it is appropriated to the individual, so to is Jesus death no advantage to those who do not appropriate it through faith.

Here is the last supper sermon so you can see that he clearly teaches his death is an atonement for sin,- he is the fulfillment of the shadow of the passover lamb.
The Last Supper-Matthew 26:17-30

17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?"

18 He replied, "Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, 'The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.' " 19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover.

20 When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. 21 And while they were eating, he said, "Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me."

22 They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, "Surely not I, Lord?"

23 Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?"
Jesus answered, "You have said so."

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

27 Then he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the [a] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

30 When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.