Don't we put people like that behind bars as sex offenders?

Sorry there is no justification for Genocide and Rape. Especially when many being punished had no involvement in the sin, you don't punish someone for something their parents did, for example.

Rape? It's akin to arranged marriages. You are looking at the situation through the filter of current social convention. Put yourself in the shoes of ancient humanity and ask the same question.

As for Genocide, you are of course assuming that God does not ahve the right to do whatever he wishes with his own creation (or that those who are punished do not deserve it).

btw, I slightly edited my last post before you replied.

Regards, PA

Just as I can not prove they were THAT YOUNG....you can not prove they were not.
13 - 14 and getting married....yes I agree with you and in doing so it gives my point more credibility. Marriage at that age lowers the age of the "little girls"/young virgins.

Except that it was not allowed! Simple! btw, anyone under the age of 30 would have been considered "young"

(Note to self: murdering the relations to little girls then taking them as virgins to mate with, is arranged marriage back in the day, not vengeful genocide and rape.)





I can see the faith in that kind of god and am blessed to know I can forever look away from that which finds glory in the kingdom of vengeance, genocide, necromancy and blood. As some have said; I know it's true because it's in the bible in gods own words.





*link fix*

I don't see that in other religious texts where they say you can rape and then call it an arranged marriage. This seems to be purely a biblical thing.

Arranged marriages were usually arranged by the fathers of the children. It was used to strengthen family ties, to secure allies, and to acquire wealth in the form of a dowry.

How the hell could anyone justify the murder of people and the abduction and forced sexual assault on surviving the females?

Oh wait, since they taken by "gods chosen people", and then assimililated into the tribe, I guess it was for their own good, huh?

Well, it certainly lends it's part in adding fertile females to insure the population of the chosen. (Reminiscent of other religious tenets that prohibit birth control in any form. Forced pregnancy increases faithful population.(procreation))

I remember that line by "Long Shanks" in the movie; "Brave heart", regarding his intentions to over throw the Scots through enacting the right of prima noctes ( "first night"), wherein land lords would have first rights to bed new Scottish virgin brides.

"If we can't get them out, we'll breed them out."



It's people that make the worst impressions of god. It's always been the people.

I'm going to change my previous statement guys. Sorry Now that it's not 2am, and I'm not half-drunk (I'd just been to a wedding ), I've looked more deeply into the issue.

The destruction of the Midianites was indeed God's divine judgement (cf Numbers 25). However, the taking of the women was not! That was Moses giving that instruction (read 31:15-17).

And just to make things interesting, in this passage God reminds Moses of his punishment due. Moses, God's most faithful servant, because of his disobedience to God (if I recall, from striking the rock in anger, though i could be wrong), was also judged accordingly! God does not overlook sin in the Israelites just because they were "His nation". God is impartial!

Just a thought.

Regards, PA

so, for a brief moment of anger, or doubt, "Moses, God's most faithful servant, because of his disobedience to God (if I recall, from striking the rock in anger, though i could be wrong), was also judged accordingly"

wow. just, wow. If this is truly the case, then I have serious doubts about any christians ever getting into their heaven.

We are all under judgement JMPD. The great thing about God is that he provided a way out for us all. No one can reach God on their own. It's part of the repeated cycle I mentioned earlier - SIN - JUDGEMENT - REPENTENCE - GRACE! Even the smallest thing we do wrong drives a wedge between us and God! That's why no one is perfect, all have fallen short. God provided a way out for us all - Grace through Faith. Without it, there's no chance.

Regards, PA

sooo you are saying Moses had no faith? thus couldn't be saved? For one moments doubt? The story as my bible tells it is that Moses was instructed by god to strike a rock to bring forth water for the people. When he did so, no water flowed and he struck the rock a second time, doubting the word of god. But perhaps, he didn't. Perhaps he was doubting whether he struck the rock properly, but whatever the reason, he was punished for his 'sin'.

C'mon PA, I know you are devout in your faith, and I'm not trying to change that, but don't you think that its just a little bit unfair of your god? If as you claim, your god created us all, then he should know that we are not perfect but he still holds it against us?


Again, all I can say is 'wow'.

It only takes a moment to sin! Moses was still saved. His Faith made him right with God. However, that does not absolve him from wrong. And he was punished accordingly - specifcally, he would never enter the Promised Land! I was not implying Moses was lying in Hell (whatever definition of Hell you would like to use)!

Regards, PA

I never mentioned hell. I used the same words you did: punished, punishment.

Well, I'm glad that you find great comfort in your faith PA, truly I do. But speaking for myself, I cannot place such faith in such a perfectionist who punishes his creations for the very flaws he created in us.

Indeed, you never did say hell. However.....

I got the impression that was what you were referring to. If not, I apologize. Regardless, No one is perfect. Everyone has sinned. That is one of the reasons people don't like the Bible. It tells us stuff about us we don't want to hear. We don't want to hear that we are unable to reach God on our own. We don't like giving away the power of our own salvation to someone else. But it is exactly that which we have to do, according ot the Bible. Acknowledge we are incapable on our own to reach God, and Trust and rely on God to bring us to Him!

Regards, PA

Lets refer back to a previous post of yous:
As I said before I agree with you on the young age they got married but back then 30 being young.....
1) If 30 was young why get married at 13 - 14?
2) Read this (I kept it simple for you):

The average age at death today in the United States is about 82, while in the Roman Empire it was probably about 35.

historyforkids.org

The reason they got married that young was the short life expectancy.


Justifying genocide......
Justifying raping young females......


A love that many are deciding to do without.

I agree IF.....
Also it would be kind of hard for the brides family to enjoy grand children......you think!

From that site you linked, zandore: but mostly the average is low because a lot of babies died soon after they were born. Thus this is statistics only!

If I stand with one foot in a bucket of frozen water, and the other in a bucket of boiling water, then statistically I should be quite comfortable, right!

zandore, take out the children who died at young age, and you'll find a much more accurate age of death for the average adult (though i will concede that it would still be generally lower than the current U.S average).

However you look at it, it is FACT that a Jewish child was not officially considered an adult until the age of 30! That is why, though there is no evidence of Jesus' age, most scholars believe him to have been 30 when he started his ministry, since he would have been ignored as an upstart child before that.

That aside:If it were any but God, I would condemn it. God however, shows that his actions are completely justified. He is the Creator, the King. And the Midianites did indeed deserve the punishment they received. God has the right!

If you choose to do without God, that's your perogative. I won't stop you, or anyone from making your own choices. You make your own bed. Just remember that you have to lie in it also.

Regards, PA

A link.....

I have no link. Read Numbers 4, the Biblical basis for this cultural convention of being a child until 30

You still have not justified the Biblical raping of female children.

the destruction of the Midianites - God's righteous and justified judgement.

the taking of the women - was not God's decision. Moses made that decision (cf Numbers 31:15-17). God did not ordain it, nor anywhere sanction it (though to be fair, he did not condemn it either). Regardless, I do not believe it to be raping children. Since it would be unlawful to lie with someone that young, it would be of marriageable age (13-14), and they would be married to another person of approximatley the same age - fundamentally no different to an arranged marriage.

Regards, PA

btw, why the - " "? You boldened one line of text and asked for a link. So I provided that information from you. And instead of responding to it, you ignore it and ask something else. But that's always the way of things for you, isn't it

Let me refer you to these verses:
Numbers 31
1) And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2) Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.

21) And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;

This indicates Moses was acting under your violent God's orders.

You made a comment (trying to change the topic) and I asked for a link....

"You still have not justified the Biblical raping of female children".

And I agreed wholeheartedly. The destruction of the Midianites was God's ordinance. HOWEVER, the taking of women, that was entirely Moses -

Numbers 31:15-18
Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live? Behold, these, on Balaam's advice, caused the people of Israel to act treacherously against the LORD in the incident of Peor, and so the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.

The first part is the most important for this discussion - MOSES SAID TO THEM!!!

Interesting. You ask a specific question and then ignore the answer

I have answered your question in any case. But in case you've missed it, here it is again. I do not believe it to be rape, or them to be children. It was akin to marriage. However, as I said, God did not sanction this. Therefore, it's not God's decree. They could have had drunken orgies and spat on the name of the Lord for all it matters, GOD DID NOT ORDAIN IT!

And it all goes back to the Bible being "God's word".

As I have told you before in this thread--"Almost any problem can be eliminated with suitable rationalizations".

Per Christian belief the Bible is.....

You even quoted the passage yourself - Numbers 31:1-2 - The LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "Avenge the people of Israel on the Midianites. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people." No mention of taking their women until Moses brings it up.

Almost any problem can be started with enough twisting of scripture

PA let me refer you back to a post of yours......



God's word......God's will

As violent as it is.

Yet he still called for the Jews to commit Genocide, and then allowed his chosen one to call for the murder and rape of children, yeah that's a really forgiving god .

My point!
Thank you

Again, this makes the assumption that God's judgement was not justified. Let's just agree to disagree on this one people's. We're going around in circles (what else is new)!

Regards, PA

PA stop for a moment and think about something.

You are trying to justify the murder of families.....
You are trying to justify the kidnapping and rape of young females.....


How can this sit with you?

It sits with me because God has the divine right to judge. Humans do not. Therefore, I will be vehemently against any human that decides to take matters into their own hands and destroy civilizations.

Double standards? Of course. God is..... well, God! He has the right. Human's do not. Simple.

As for the "rape" of children, you still have yet to provide any evidence that they were not simply of marriageable age. But despite that, and this is most important - THIS WAS MOSES' INSTRUCTION TO ISRAEL, NOT GOD'S!!!!!!

Regards, PA

Whether or not they were of "marriagable age" is besides the point.

PA, how would you feel if I led "my people" against your town, supposedly under the orders of my god and wiped out all the men and gave the young women to my followers? Not trying to be too personal or grotesque here, but do you have sisters? a daughter perhaps? Female friends? How would you feel knowing that they were "given" to some man just because a 'voice from the heavens' said it was OK?

ANALOGY: My wife and I created our daughter. As her creators, do we have the 'right' to do to her as we please? In all things?

By your arguement, as her creator, I should have the right to judge her, and if I so desire, to destroy her. Does that seem right to you?

But Joe, you have to remember - God can do anything he wants with his creations, no matter how vile they see it as!

Heh, I better let the kid know the rules then. This should make getting her to clean her room easier.........

Then you wonder why someone will give up Christianity!
The sentence I highlighted......Moses. Are you against Moses? Even as "righteous" as Moses was supposed to have been.

God speaking comparing Moses to the Messiah:
Deuteronomy 18:18 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
Acts 3:22 "Moses said, 'THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you.

Gods words......


A bloody and violent God you have.


I think I just did with those verses.
WHERE did you get they were of age?


BTW: do not forget what you said:


No wonder Christianity is on a downward spiral.

PA, why Wouldn't I instead follow a God who is kinder and gentler then?

It's your choice who you follow. I'm not here to bash you into submission. I can't change my beliefs. The God I believe in is the God from the Bible. How can you just "stop believing" in something you believe to be true.

The only question in my mind is what to do now that I believe it to be true. Ignore it, or embrace it.

That aside, it is also my belief that God is a Loving deity, not a hateful and judgemental one. Throughout the ages, humanity has rebelled against God. What we've been doing for the past two pages of this thread is exactly what I warned about in my first post. To focus on the Judgement in the Old Testament is to ignore 3/4 of the Bible. The repeated pattern I mentioned.... SIN - JUDGEMENT - REPENTENCE - GRACE ........ that pattern is clear throughout.

Keep ignoring three quarter's of the Bible if you wish.........

Regards, PA

You are 100 % right PA, I have been ignoring 3/4's of the bible.

SIN-JUDGEMENT-REPENTANCE.

Who determines what is a sin? God, right?
Who determines the judgement of your sins? God again, right?
Who Demands your repentance? The G man once more.

And, as you and others have pointed out, no matter how hard we try to meet gods standards, we are doomed to fail, unless we acknowledge our inferiority and weakness and beg god to forgive us.

Meh If it works for you, more power to you.

You know, after writing my testimony in another thread, I've just come to a conclusion. How you see the Bible God is irrelevant. I know I'm not going to change your minds about it, and you're not going to change my mind (not any time soon, anyway ).

It's just an endless circle of arguing semantics and justification, from all sides.....

The God I know is a God of endless Love, and that Love is, I think (hope), reflected in my Life. I believe in a God of Love, and my Life is better for having the Bible God central to my life. What you think of the Bible God is a different matter. Hell, you may even be right. I don't think you are, and have my reasons for believing so, but I admit I could be wrong.

Does it really matter, is what I guess I'm saying. If I believed in a violent God who I felt needed me to personally exact terrible retribution on others, then perhaps there'd be an issue here - for those who might be affected by the outpouring of my wrath. But I don't believe in that kind of God!

Good journey to you all. I withdraw from this particular debate - it's going in circles. If you choose to look at this as a concession of victory, then so be it. Nothing more can be accomplished here, in my opinion.

Regards, PA

That is the conclusion I can to when I left the Christian faith. Open your mind to the possibility that you might be worshiping a violent God.

There cannot be a violent god in existence unless a god exists.
You cannot say a god is violent and then turn around and say that there are no gods.
That is just illogical nonsense.

You can say there are no gods and the worhsippers of such and such a god are violent.
Accusing the worhsippers of violence is not the same at all as accusing a god of being violent.

Unfortunately Bella, in the case of Christianity (at least according to their book of mythology), both the god and the adherents are violent. Look at the perior from the 4th to 18th centuries in Europe, America, Asia Minor and Africa and quail at the blood shed in the name of that god and his supposed son, at the stealing, enslavement, torment and torture perpetrated by their followers and usually in their name.

I thought I did...... (quote from my last post) What you think of the Bible God is a different matter. Hell, you may even be right. I don't think you are, and have my reasons for believing so, but I admit I could be wrong. I have asked myself whether the Bible is right more times than you probably think. At the moment though, it's not a matter of choosing to believe or not. I DO believe. All I can do for now is choose to ignore/reject it, or embrace it (did I say this somewhere before? ).

What the future holds.....

For the sake of the debate Bela I have to assume the Christian God is real.

Mako I have a link to go with your post. She will not read it but atleast the option was there for her.

How many people have been killed by Christians since Biblical times?

It is the past that I am worried about.....it has a tendency (as history shows) to repeat it's self.


Murder....rape....genocide....slavery.....cannibalism..... It's sad and scary.

cannibalism?

Flaws, inaccuracies, and changed sections are all the result of the CATHOLIC church.

I dare you go visit a Rabbinical priest, and tell him that the Jewish scribes chaged changed the text when they were making copies of it.

The Hebrew old testament has remain pure since it was written.

Ever heard of the dead sea scrolls? They contain the book of Isiah. Those scrolls are the oldest texts ever unearthed. And if you read their "Isiah" and compare with the modern Hebrews's book of Isiah, their entemology is exactly the same.

I'd have to say that the Jewish scribes must have taken their work very, very seriously.

How many people have been killed by Christians since Biblical times?

People people, you are comparing apples and oranges. Just because I call myself an astronaught doesn't mean I will fly to the moon some day. A Person claiming to be a Christian who murders another person for their religious beliefs, or lack thereof, was never really a true Christian to begin with.

THE 6th COMMANDMENT

Thou Shalt Not Kill


Now everyone is saying, "Blah blah, the isaelites killed thousands blah blah". This shows a complete lack of understanding of the old testament. If you want to get into that can of worms, let me know. But you better have a damned good scholarly understanding of old testament times. Otherwise, you'll be wasting both our time.

Go ahead people, visit http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/10...n-killed-by.php

Look at the numbers! My, those "christians" sure have slaughted a ton of people.

Yes, and all other religious people have never commited murder once.

Do I comdemn the islamic people for the crimes of their peers? Did I go burn down a Mosque after Sept 11th? Of course not. 99 percent of islamic people are very, very peaceful. Infact, the vast majority of the islamic populous condems acts of violence commited by their so called islamic peers.

Now that you have all visited the site with those terrible numbers, indulge in the following:

1.5 million Armenian Christians and Syriac Christians (Assyrians) were killed by the Young Turk government between 1915 and 1917. The massacre, which became known as the Armenian Genocide, is considered the first genocide of the 20th Century, one of the biggest in terms of number of victims, and could have been a direct inspiration for Hitler's Final Solution.

It is estimated that over 1.5 million Christians have been killed by the Sudanese army, the Janjaweed, and even suspected Islamists in northern Sudan since 1984.

Oct. 28, 2001 - Lahore, Pakistan - Islamic militants killed 15 Christians at a church. On 25 September 2002 two terrorists entered the "Peace and Justice Institute", Karachi. They separated Muslims from the Christians, and then executed eight Christians by shooting them in the head.

1998 - 500 Christian churches burned down in Java.

November, 1998 - 22 churches in Jakarta are burned down. 13 Christians killed.

Christmas Day 1998 - 180 homes and stores owned by Christians are destroyed in Poso, Central Sulawesi.

Easter 2000 - 800 homes and stores owned by Christians are destroyed in Poso, Central Sulawesi.

June, 2001 - the Laskar Jihad declares Jihad against Christians. Muslim citizens are recruited by the thousands to exterminate Christians.

May 28, 2005 - A bomb is exploded in a crowded market in Tentena, killing 28. This marks the highest death toll due to bombing after the devestating attacks in Bali. [7]

On October 29, 2005 three school girls were found beheaded near Poso. The girls, students at Central Sulawesi Christian Church, were killed by six unidentified assailants while on their way to class.

In Saudi Arabia, , Christians are arrested and lashed in public for practicing their faith. Bibles and other non-Muslim religious books are captured, piled up and burned by the religious police of Saudi. No non-Muslims are allowed to become Saudi citizens. Prayer services by Christians are frequently broken up by the police and the Christians are arrested and tortured without even allowing them to be released on bail. People who convert to Christianity can officially be executed, although this has not in fact been done in many years.

23 Jan 1999 - Graham Staines, an Australian Christian missionary aged 55 years, and his two sons, aged 8 and 10, were burned to death in the state of Orissa by members of Hindutva Parivar, a Hindu nationalist group

I could literally go on for hours. I'll will end the list by saying, COUGHhollocaustCOUGH.

So you see, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I really have no desire to persecute anyone of any religion or faith. I just wish the rest of the public had the same attitude towards me.