Im an atheist. Why the heck would I blame a God I don't believe in for bad things in life? I attribute bad things to what they are: extremely common occurances in everyday life.

Theists don't blame their Gods for bad things, they blame themselves. Ya see, no one wants to talk about the religious person who thanks the Lord for every good thing that happens to them (i.e. "I had a baby/got a promotion/my car insurance was lowered, thank Jesus!")...but when something BAD happens, that creator who is responsible for the good is never responsible for the crap...YOU are...somehow. Maybe you aren't devout enough...maybe you sinned, either way you must learn a lesson and find out what to blame yourself for so God will bless you again. "everything happens for a reason" they will say. It is merely God doing it/allowing it to be done for some divine design. Funny how the bad things in life 'just happen' and the good things are blessings from God.

Nonsense.

You're assuming that the number of incarnations means more experience, especially when its likely that more incarnations means shorter lives.



Umm sorry since when do you have a Karma meter?

You're assuming that their Karmic debt would be that different. Sorry no it has little to do with intent, its not what you wanted to do but rather what you did, you can think about killing but you've done nothing wrong until you actually do the act.

You're right that their karmic load would be different, but not becaue of intent or anything, but rather because no two people can commit the exact same acts their entire lives. Everyone performs different actions in life and as a result your karmic effect is different.



And who says Science and Religion don't work in similar ways? In fact its very likely that the forces of Karma work very similar to other forces in nature.

anyone here ever study I Ching?

Thats exactly what I do...But I go one step worse...when the crap hits the fan, I'll ask "God" to get me out of this, or help me out, or...you get the idea...and in return I promise to become a faithful follower....and I gotta tell ya...more times than not...I always somehow manage to make it through the seemingly impossible situation....but do I ever keep my end of the deal....NEVER....I'm such a prick

Not everyone does keep to their side of the deal but we do try

Hey I see you are in Ireland....I've been to Derry, Northern Ireland a few times....nice place...havn't figured out all the hate between catholics and protestants yet...whats that all about...its the same freakin relgion...must be more political than religious...i'm guessing

I haven't, please enlighten me on this topic.

www.facade.com/iching/introduction
This should get you started

not really. Sometimes its neither God's nor ours. Someone wicked seeks to hurt you. Is that God's fault. What about when weather gets rough? Is that God's fault. Its not about what God does, its about what God allows to happen. He allows us to make our own choices and in turn allows us to suffer the results, (ex: going in debt for spending too much money. Or getting bad credit for not paying bills.) All these have nothing to do with what God does. On the other side, we thank God for all our blessing, BECAUSE we know we could have it far worse that what we have now. Instead of having money, we could be on the streets. Then we would thank God for our daily meal. Its not about what the rest of the world thinks of us anyway. We are secure in our love for God and in God's love, we should we worry about what the world thinks of us?

Actually, in most cases, it would mean more experiences in life's lessons, tolerance, patience, etc. I mean that's a gimme.

Why does a short life mean lack of experience? Is that what you are assuming? Also, if you've lived for 50, 000 years for example, as opposed to the soul with one incarnation, chances are the one with 50, 000 years of experience is going to have more "experience".

I've seen karma in action. Guess you and I have different experiences, and I would probably be more in synch with things than yourself, since I experience this everyday.
It's not something I question.

It would be. You have two different people, the karma will not be identical.

Actually it has A LOT to do with intentions. You kill someone for the thrill of it, compared to killing someone in defense or killing someone on accident, THREE different types of karma, for the same action: murder. It's foolish to say that it has little to do with intentions. It has a lot to do with it, and situation as well. Also, if people truly believe that they are doing the right thing, that too affects their karma.
You have different religions and laws varying around the world. You think there is only one path or something?
Cause there isn't. Not everyone has to follow the same law. Their intentions matter.

Equal and opposite reaction? No offense but that sounded silly. Especially the opposite one.
It could be a similar effect, that's why and I've seen this happen with many people that have reincarnated. I don't think you know enough about karma or experience it on a day to day level to be so convinced of its simplicity. It is not simple.

It is more political..they use religion to fight and kill....but it has ceased now, nothing has happened for a long time

well I was there 2 years ago and these two guys I was with...both Catholic oddly enough...beat the crap out of this guy from england because he was a protestant....so I tell them...hey...I'm technically a protestant too...they said I dont count because I'm american...

Thanks for the input, but I also think non-CHristians can do good. I'm just saying that Christianity is about responsibility, and cite my own life as proof of that.

That said, my friend was telling me a story of a time when he was living in India (or was it Brazil? I can't recall at the moment, he's lived all over the world at various times). ANyhow, there was a big flood, and his neighbourhood was destroyed. In the aftermath, the people who had their homes ruined had family and friends come and help them with the clean-up. The church my friend was going to all pitched in to help with this guy's house, and then stayed around to help out the rest of the neighbourhood. Most of the other people in the clean-up (9 out of 10, and that's being generous to them), helped clean their friend/relative's house, then buggered off back to their own lives.

I know others will have stories of sacrifice and generosity from non-Christians - I'm not saying they don't help out. I'm just pointing out a particular example of Christian's helping out.

Regards, PA

btw,

It sounds to me like you were trying to make the xians appear better and more helpful than the N/B's. I could be wrong, but that's the way you make it appear.

In the case I cited, they WERE more helpful.

However, my original statement was simply discussion the workings of Christianity in my own life, without referring to any external source.

Regards, PA

I never mentioned what the world thinks of the christian. I dont care about that. But, since this topic began by talking about what the author thinks of the atheist, I decided to defend myself.

You said someone wicked hurts you and bad weather hurts you and it is not God's fault. God, by definition, is all-knowing and all-powerful...omniscient and omnipotent. Yet he is all-loving as well. This is a contradiction, since if a being is truly "all-loving" he/she/it, also being "all-powerful", would not allow evil men to harm you...so in a way, if God exists, it is indeed God's fault, since God is omnipotent and we are helpless, at his mercy.

I know, I know, it is man's fault because of his wickedness and the fallen world and the choices we make. So a God places us here, in a fallen world full of sin and danger, gives us choices (already knowing which choices we will make...remember the omniscient factor. A truly omniscient AND omnipotent God means we are given choices that God created, and God already knows what we will do...therefore free will is non-existent), and sets us up to fail, knowing our natures will get us into trouble. He allows science to overwhelm the flimsy mythology that expouses his existence, allowing millions to deny him/her/it and be damned. Sounds like a science experiment to me. But this is the bottom line: Evil is either caused by God, or exists independantly of God. It cannot be caused by God, since he is all-loving and omni-benevolent...and it cannot exist independant of God because god is omnipotent and hates evil. An all-good God would want to annihilate evil, so it's very existence speaks to God's innability, or lack of desire to end it. (thanks to Charles Bradlaugh).

Now I do not wish to argue theology. I am merely presenting my case in defense of the original post of this thread and in reply to the quoted post above.

If God exists, he put me into this rat-race knowing beforehand I would fail, become an atheist, and burn in hell...in which case, when I see him, he will not sit in judgement of me. It is I who will judge him.

Really and your resoning is supported by what evidence?

More incarnations doesn't necessarily translate into more experience.



You stated that more incarnations means an older more experienced soul, I was refuting that, more or less incarnations do not translate into more experience, your reasoning is flawed.



So you've seen Karma work over hundreds of lifetimes, yeah right



Did you even read my post?...I said if two people performed similar actions their Karmic Debt would not be that different, however since two people cannot perform the same actions in life they cannot have the same karmic load, however it has little to do with intent, but rather their actions.



Sorry but no, Hitler believed he was doin the right thing, doesn't change the fact that people suffered under him, once an action is performed the results are far more important than intent.



And your proof is? Sorry but intent is a very minor factor, many of the most horrible people in history would claim they had good intentions.

What you did is far more important that what you intended to do.



So you've seen karma work for someone over the course of hundreds of lifetimes and can show me proof? And you called my comment silly?

That goes with what I have said in the past......I do not believe in God and has no power over me.

when one is judged, is he not obligated to defend himself? On one side you have the accuser on the other side you have the defence. Lets put this in court terms, the devil accuses God of being unjust and loving and that no one really loves him for creating them. He accuses the human race of being selfish and unobedient. God defends himself by letting men do what they want. In doing what they want, many refuse him and kill each other. So, why would it be hypocritical if God let the wicked slay the righteous? The righteous are God's defence on this case. If the righteous suffer the wicked and still remain faithful, doesn't that defend God, that he made a good choice in creating men? In turn, the righteous get paid big with what is called everlasting life and peace. Works for me. The devil wants God's throne so he can take it, and many will help him. But the righteous die for the cause of God knowing that God is righteous and wise in his love and power. When the books are laid out, every man that accused God of being unloving will get to look at his life and see how they treated God's love in the first place and foremost. Men put themselves as gods in their own lives. Its their fault if they don't want to share in the eternal life that is in Jesus Christ and nobody elses. If you knew today that God had sent us to show you his love and to turn you to it, would you? No, even if Jesus came in all his glory, you still would not follow him. If you can't accept what the Bible says while you think it is false, how are you going to accept what it says when it comes true? The Bible is the written word of God and how each of us could better ourselves and those around us by living godly and peaceful lives. I'm not trying to pull a guilt trick, I'm only saying what is mostly burning at people's hearts when they talk about God. They want to know where they fit in God's plan. If they don't like it, they reject it.

????????????????????...........?????.......?
Why would God need to defend himself?

He is perfect and righteous. How could he make a mistake. If the human race is determined to believe that God made a mistake, he is able to defend himself. Why? That's not for me to say, but that is the practicle them of the Bible. God loves us and loves a relationship with us. We must choose him first. If no one had, the devil would have successfully accused God of a mistake. If man has his own choice to either follow God or not, how is it God's mistake? I think this sounds like some are trying to shift the responsibility of their actions to blame God.

They wont touch Americians not a mission...see you dont understand it.....its all to do with the brits taking over ireland...and you sir are not a brit...as for the beating up on folks thats not what I was referring to...I am talking about the past 30 yrs of killings..not beatings LOL...shoot to kill nuff said I dont want to get into it

Blue are you reading these posts you are making less and less sense, how does one that is All make mistakes???? Blue , blue . blue ........

Blue takes a quick glance I have told him this before

First you say God defends himself to the devil and to man...which an omnipotent being would never have to do.

Second you say defends himself by making martyrs of his followers? Allowing the wicked to harm his righteous? I dont know about you, but no matter the accusations against me I would not allow my children to be harmed to exonerate myself.

If all one can say is "You wait and see when it comes true"...than I say 'fine.'

Your Christ "and no one else" as you put it was a deity finally decided upon after no less than 13(!) councils convened on the nature of Jesus, finally ending with the council of Nicea in 325, convoked by Constantine, a man who had no qualms deifying his own father and killing family on his mad rise to power.

Paul of Tarsus battled Jesus' own brother, James, in his quest to claim Jesus as God. Since no contemporary writings of Jesus exist, as all accounts of him are from (at the earliest) 70 years AFTER his purported crucifixion, this was a hard pill to swallow.

I do my homework, and find that I wind up with more Christolic knowledge than your average christian...none of which is ever enough to make me accept this lunacy. Quite the contrary, in fact. I almost ALWAYS find my position strengthened. I suppose this is just the influence of the devil, right?

Trade places with me for a day and you'd change your mind, but likewise, you have no proof to show me that it is simple. So keep rolling your eyes, it'll get you far in life.

Uh...yes it would. You have more experience of living in a body. That's obvious.

I never said older. Reread what I wrote. I said Old Soul means more incarnations, not literally "old". I said it was an *expression*.

More than a hundred on my part. I'm a very old soul, meaning, I've incarnated many times over.

Did you read mine? If you murder someone in defense as opposed to killing someone for a thrill, your karma would not be the same for both. *That* ties into intentions. Actions are superficial. I'm sure you know this.

So did many other Nazis. Believe it or not, they get a second chance. They aren't roasting in hell for what they did. They reincarnate again, and every single one of them have different karma.
You ask for proof, likewise show me yours. We can agree to disagree.

Actually a very big one, I know from experience.

What's your point?

Important doesn't mean it is going to affect you.

Sure, mine and several of my friends who have known each other in many past lives.
You could pm me for details. I don't joke about these matters. Karma is very real, and it isn't simple at all.

I roll my eyes because you keep making ridiculous statements without any proof.



What are you talking about? Longer lives and fewer incarnations can also mean more experience, like I said your reasoning is flawed



And like I said more incaranations do not equal "older soul".



And you can prove this how?



The difference is minor, you still harmed someone else, like I said good intentions can be claimed by some of the most horrible people in history, intentions is not a shield for your actions.



Of course they get another chance, but to say they haven't incurred massive karmic debt just because of their intentions is false.

I can't show you proof, but I'm not making outlandish claims like yourself



So, support your statement and show me proof, otherwise you couldbe making stuff up.




Intentions is not a sheild you can use, actions are more important than intent.




Actually it means that its much more likely to affect you than something minor

You wonder why I roll my eyes at you, its these ridiculous statements you keep making without any supporting evidence.

I agree karma exists, but I disagree on what you claim about how it works

Karma literally means "deed" or "act" and more broadly names the universal principle of cause and effect, action and reaction which governs all life. Karma is not fate, for man acts with free will creating his own destiny. According to the Vedas, if we sow goodness, we will reap goodness; if we sow evil, we will reap evil. Karma refers to the totality of our actions and their concomitant reactions in this and previous lives, all of which determines our future. The conquest of karma lies in intelligent action and dispassionate reaction. Not all karmas rebound immediately. Some accumulate and return unexpectedly in this or other births.

I'm not making less sense. You just aren't on the same page as me. Men showed that they could choose to not obey God and that stands. The devil is accusing men of being selfish and that they don't really love God. And by this, the devil is insisting that God made a mistake. So they righteous will show them wrong. God intends good for us, but he wants us to choose it, he doesn't want to force it down their throats.

yep.

2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Yup, that's what I believe.

Yel doesn't make stuff up....he knows more than he lets on at times...and he wouldn't get into a debate without knowing what he was talking about in the 1st place.

Just because you find what he has stated ridiculous, does NOT mean he is wrong...why can't you just be a gent and say ok I see what you are saying but I disagree...point set and match to you...but you wont do that, will you...not a mission

Well consider that you compared karma to the law: equal and opposite reaction. You do not have any evidence for that. I welcome your skepticism. In fact I encourage it. I am after all, pretty skeptical myself. Until my past lives began to become intrusive on me. I've been able to speak languages that I've never learned before due to triggers. I've had dreams and visions of things I've never seen before, and then I'd see it years later and it all comes together perfectly. I've experienced well over 50 coincidences a day that tie into my past life, a bit hard to explain unless you were standing next to me. I've also met a lot of people I've shared lives with and I can see why our karma is the way it is. We have shared the same dreams and just piece things together. Things of that nature. Again, I don't joke about these matters. When I talk about my spirituality and the odd experiences I've had, I am being serious. And when I say karma ties into intentions, again, I am being serious. Now if you and I have shared a past life together, it would be a lot easier to prove, but honestly, I don't know you. But I welcome you to pm me about what I know, and past life regression etc (not by a regressionist btw).

How is it flawed if I never disputed that specifically? Furthermore, I said experinces in a *body*. Reread what I wrote.

Again, reread what I wrote. You are taking my quote out of context. I said "old soul" is an expression, which does not have to be literal.

And?

I never said that. I said karma ties into intentions. Let me use this example a third time, because you are not ingesting it: you kill someone in defense, or you kill someone for the thrill of it. What is the difference between that? The intentions. Therefore the karma will be different in either case. I did not say that intentions were a shield or a way to escape things. I said it tied into it and your situation. If you have been victimized, things are not *resolved* between you and say, a rapist.

Nothing wrong with me rolling my eyes at you then since you said it was an equal and opposite reaction. Of course, I'm not usually one to stoop to that level.

I think you want to believe karma is simple. And on top of that you are not really understanding what I am saying or reading what I wrote carefully. Intentions is not a shield. Look at my example again.

Very true. I think that sums it up, I'll stay out of a conversation if I don't know enough about a topic. I know a lot of people won't believe what I have to say unless they have experienced a regression perhaps etc, but again, I welcome skepticism.
I am at least happy that I know karma works that way and that past lives are real. In fact some of my past lives still have a profound effect on me.

It doesn't mean he's right either, the fact that he makes these comments without any way to support them, well I have no choice but to be skeptical, I don't know him and maybe he believes what he's saying, but belief is not something that can be take as evidence of fact.




You might be serious in your belief, but without any way to prove that you have any recollections of your past lives, your comments come off as ridiculous to me, and I am forced to remain skeptical. You can state that you remember your past lives, but without evidence to the validity of those memories they could be falisfications, delusions or imagined memories.



You made the comment that more incarnations means more experience, that's not necessarily true, that's what I'm pointing to as flawed.



By old you mean more experienced right? That's what I'm pointing out as wrong, more incarnations do not necessarily equal more experience, therefore the "old soul" comment is not necessarily true.




You also seem to be misunderstanding wht I'm saying, You assume that the difference in karmic debt will be huge, that's waht I mean by using intent as a sheild, you don't know that for a fact, it could be a small difference. A belief in the purity of your intent does not justify the actions taken, which is why I brought up the example of history, many people have believed that their intent was pure enough to justify the atrocities they commited, it does not.

In the example you used, the rapist would have incurred Karmic Debt for themselves, which would result in suffering for themselves down the line.



Actually you referred to it as silly without being able to prove that its not true, not much different than me rolling my eyes.



Actually I see no proof that karma does not work in similar ways to other physical forces, so until I see proof to the contrary I'm sticking to the viewpoint I have.

I have read your comments a few times now, each time they come across the same, you seem to be saying that intentions play a very large role in Karmic debt, my point is that stating/believing your intentions to be pure does not sheild you from the cost of your action, that's why I don't believe intent to play a large role in assigning Karmic debt.

Yele have you read any of the Seth books????? I have heard of those being able to experince many aspects of the space time continuim, not just linear but backwards circular do you know what I'm talking of?????Probable realitys many lives all being lived NOW...does this ring any bells?? PM if so thanks

Wow, same with you with that equal and oppposite reaction comment.

It's not just a belief for me. In fact I have literally found myself in history a few times. Not someone famous either. But then I find that this person-me, has the same bone structure, handwriting, interests, etc such as myself. Dreams and visions and coincidences have led me there. Far too many to scoff off as mere coincidences as well. Now the way I got to that point was more extraordinary than actually finding it. The fact that I can speak languages that no one has taught me (through a trigger), also fascinates me. Furthermore, I hav a birthmark that resembles the fatal wound that my last incarnation received.
I could go on and on but my point is that past lives can leave residual memories and affect karma.

In a body. Can you read? I posted that more than once. And if you go in and out of this earth so many times, of course you are more experienced with going through different planes and what not, as opposed to one with a single incarnation.

Read the above sentence. Again, you obviously are not reading what I am writing. I said it is an expression. What-is this the fourth time I have had to repeat myself?

I never used that term. You are assuming that I am assuming. loool. Hardly, must be wishful thinking on your part.

I never said it was justified. So I asked you what your point was. You think life is fair?

Where is your proof that the karma is *suffering*? The karma can take many different forms. What is imperative is that the person learns the lesson for spiritual advancement in my opinion.

The difference was that I said, no offense. Because my intention was not to offend you. While you rolling your eyes is a true display of your maturity.

Then we can agree to disagree.

Intentions are important, because it ties into karma, is what I said. So does situation.

Again, I just said earlier it was not a shield. I say that in my previous post. Intentions tie in because every situation is different. Did you not understand my example? Yes or no?
The killer one. Two killers killing for two different reasons: their intentions and their situations. *Both* are murderers. Are you under the impression that both will suffer equally and "opposite" (in reaction) as you so eloquently put it?

I never claimed otherwise, I merely stated that it seems more likely that karma would act similarly to physical forces


You could go on but without evidence, so what? None of this proves anything. You have your beliefs and that is all it is.



Can you? You stated that more incarnations equals an older soul, no it doesn't, you assume there is more experience gained by going through other planes and what not.

Also you didn't state in a body, you said it meant more experiences in life's lessons, but no mention of in a body.




You used that "expression" as a reference to being more experienced, that's where the issue arises, this is what you said:

Actually, in most cases, it would mean more experiences in life's lessons, tolerance, patience, etc. I mean that's a gimme.

So now you're changing your stance?



Yes you did, you stated that they will have different karmic debts due to their intent.



Who said anything about fairness, I stated that, this is why intent would have little effect on Karmic Debt, because intent doesn't alter the actions taken.



Part of learning is suffering, in fact the noble truth is life is suffering.



Fair enough, we seem to be going over the same issues again and again anyways.




And again like I said its not very important, because it doesn't alter what happened.



Like I've been saying over and over now, you seem to think that intent will cause a great change in the reactions the two people will face, and like I've said, it doesn't cause much of a change, because intent does not affect what has happened. Your example you keep using, can you truly justify killing under either condition, even in self-defense the act of killing is almost never the only course of action available, yet you choose to take the life same as if you killed for a thrill.

Yelekiah.....Avinash_Tyagi......I kind of like and respect both of you. Please don't get heated.

Step back and take a breather.

Fair enough, we've been pretty much repeating the same arguments at this point



Yelekiah: If you took offense at me rolling my eyes I apologize, it was disrespectful of me to do so.

agree to disagree????

That would be too easy!

Yeah i'm fine with leaving it at that.

Thank you but that was directed at BM

Actually so was my post.

I think I should start reading the short posts instead of just glancing at them!

My bad Avinash....Hangs head in shame.

Blue, if my father the minister quoted scripture at me this long to no avail, I dont think yours will work.

Seriously, no disrespect to what you believe, but Im talking facts here. Those things I posted about the councils to determine whether Jesus was god or not...those were very real events, and not just theories like the Rig Vedas originating from the aryan invasions of India...these are recorded by the men that took part in them. It is widely known that the bible has undergone countless revisions, and that Paul of Tarsus (who never even met Jesus, but had an hallucinatory experience in which God 'spoke' to him on the road)was responsible for single-handedly installing the ideas that make modern Christianity what it is today...namely the atonement and the divinity of jesus, the inclusion of gentiles in the church, etc.

There is legitimate debate, that one would do a huge disservice to reason to ignore, on a great many of the foundational principles of Christianity.

When bad things happen you shouldnt blame god, For god does not wish any of us any harm, It is the DEVIL, who does bad things to us, to question our faith. It is through the worst times that we should have more faith in him, and be strong through our trials in life.................

I know that sometimes it is hard BUT WE MUST SHOW COURAGE FOR OUR LOVED ONES..

I to am loosing someone I love very much to cancer, BUT I DO NOT BLAME GOD for him taking her from me, but in stead i try to find peace that he is taking her to a better place and she will no longer feel any pain or suffering nor will get to see the destruction of our world that lies ahead for us............

No unless you edited your post, you said it was an equal and opposite reaction. You didn't say similarly.

I have evidence with my obituaries, regressions, speaking foreign languages no one has taught me, etc. And the events in which they happened without me having any prior knowledge was very convincing to me and several others. Helps if one knows me of course.

Yes I did. Go over my posts, I didn't edit them. I said in a *body* on more than one occasion.

Hardly. If you haven't noticed, I say "in most cases". I still stand by that. I'm not changing my stance at all.

No, you used the word "huge". I did not. Reread my response, I think you misunderstood me.

And to those who do not suffer, you think they haven't learned as much? Is that your implication?

Intent is affecting *you*. So what you said isn't relevant, considering my previous example, the "victim" is dead. So no that isn't affected. But the karma is.

To the law of course it's justifiable. Humans are interested in self-preservation.
Murder for the thrill is of course, frowned upon. But let's say that you live in a very different culture, where cannibalism is completely acceptable. In fact, it is a form of honor and respect. The person in the former culture may be more apt to feel guilt, and see it as being wrong (despite that they did it). The latter, probably won't, because it is acceptable. Guilt can actually affect your karma too in my opinion. There is not just one *right* path. There are truths to many paths. And that is why karma is not simple. Because everyone has a different perception of right and wrong. A lot of the times, people are affecting their own karma without realizing it. Their situations matter just as much as the action.

Ok.

No prob man.

Congrats! The Avinash v. Yelekiah squabbling officially killed this thread.

ohhh noooooooo someone call 911

they where debating it's what we do

I don't think so!



Why......would a being that is "all powerful" need to......defend himself?

He has a good kill list (per the Bible) going for himself if you ask me.